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Old    Utah Boater (boatutah)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-30-2007, 11:15 AM Reply   
I just spent an hour on an Epic Wakeboat and I'm wondering why everyone is so skeptical about new technologies and concepts. The Vector Steering alone is unbelievable, I currently own a 2004 23 LSV Wakesetter and the Epic will run circles around it with 4000lbs of ballast. The construction is impeccable, in my Malibu when I hit another wake or double up the thing slams the wake and you can feel the whole boat vibrate and shake, the Epic was so solid it was unbelievable. I've owned two Malibu's, and a Calabria, driven everything under the sun except a Sanger, and Correct Craft, and this boat I drove puts them all to shame. So why are consumers so slow to accept new technologies, you can't use the old addage of "how are they going to hold up" in this scenario because racing boats have used Vector steering for years and the space shuttles use resin infused construction.
Old    Luciano Grimblat (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-30-2007, 11:29 AM Reply   
It's funny you mention you havent driven a CC or a Sanger since they are probably 2 of the best built inboards on the market.

Anyway, Epics seems nice from here!
Old    seabass (baschralper)      Join Date: Dec 2001       10-30-2007, 11:41 AM Reply   
so Epic= NASA?

sick.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       10-30-2007, 12:09 PM Reply   
Why don't you start selling them then.

(Message edited by psudy on October 30, 2007)
Old    Utah Boater (boatutah)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-30-2007, 12:19 PM Reply   
Paul and kdubz are typical forum posters that assume that everyone that makes a post is selling something or trying to make a point. How about you step up your thought processes and start to think that maybe people ask valid questions. Epic does not equal NASA,I never said that so don't bother us with your posts if that's what you're doing to kill time at work. I have thought about becoming a dealer but I have other obstacles that prevent me from doing that. It's really a simple question that doesn't require your sarcasm.
Old    Gunner (frr)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-30-2007, 12:29 PM Reply   
So are they demo-ing still in utah? How long ago did you take one out?
Old    Eric (wakeboardin2k4)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-30-2007, 12:47 PM Reply   
if I were buying a brand new boat in the 60k range your damn right I would be getting a nice new all black epic, but since im a college student representing mid 80s nautiques I guess that's what I've gotta stick with. unless the guys frm epic want to make an even trade
Old    Utah Boater (boatutah)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-30-2007, 12:50 PM Reply   
They don't have a dealer here, one of the owners was going through on his way from Idaho down south and I took a ride in the boat he had.
Old    Dante (hal2814)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-30-2007, 1:34 PM Reply   
"So why are consumers so slow to accept new technologies, you can't use the old addage of "how are they going to hold up" in this scenario because racing boats have used Vector steering for years and the space shuttles use resin infused construction."

I seriously question your premise. Epic isn't the company that's been putting vector steering in raceboats and they're not the company that's been building space shuttles. Epic's implementation of these technologies is a bit of an unknown. Automatic transmissions are a technology that has worked quite well for years but Ford's implementation on my 91 Explorer is a complete and utter piece of crap. Nobody is as skeptical about the new technology as they are about Epic's implementation of that technology and Epic's longevity to take care of possible issues with the technology.

Fear of technology isn't keeping any Epics from selling. In order for anyone to buy a boat, they have to see it first. Epic needs some distribution and some dealers and right now they're working on that. If Epic does fail, it won't be because we're afraid of a 2nd rudder.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       10-30-2007, 1:38 PM Reply   
You having a total of 8 posts, know a lot about me. I saw that you were a dealer with a low post count and figured you were trying to push a new product line. Which is pretty typical on this site, at least for the last five years I have been a member. Since it seems that you are not, maybe you really should consider selling them. I am sure Epic wouldn't mind stretching there market area. The easiest way to do that is by having reputable dealers push their products, and even more importantly, service their products.
I think the servicing issue is what concerns most people. I wouldn't mind having one, but to get it shipped here and have to deal with someone in Ca, if I have any warranty problems, would keep me from doing so.

(Message edited by psudy on October 30, 2007)
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-30-2007, 1:51 PM Reply   
Humm good question: Mabey a better one is what reasons would keep you from buying a Epic?

For me If I bought any of the current offerings out there CC/BU/MC/Supra/MB/Sanger/Centurion. The dealer support exists in the event of a problem.
Does Epic have that yet? Should it matter?

For me some things I dont need dealer support or a 5 year warranty to feel warm and fuzzy @ night. Is this one of thoes things? I guess its up each person
Old    antifan (mars)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-30-2007, 3:07 PM Reply   
Boats are each made by hand... I've never seen a perfect boat that didn't need tweaks here and there.
Fred's Marine in UT can probably keep an Epic running but the average boater/boarder might be in over their head. Perhaps one of the reasons the Epics are so solid is that they are a relatively small company and can concentrate on quality vice quantity. I'm just glad there's room in the market for some of the smaller, specialty builders. Part of what keeps the state of the art from stagnating.
If Epic's technology is as revolutionary as stated I am sure Epic has had the foresight to patent it and will be making a bundle licensing it to others.
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-30-2007, 4:01 PM Reply   
IMHO, I think it will take some time for epic to create a following. I kind of believe that its based on seeing someone rip behind the boat. The situation unfolds like this (IMHO): Dad and mom take kids to lake. Kids see someone ripping behind a boat. Kids tell dad, that looks sweet. Dad thinks "yah, I would have a hard core boat since it can be thrown down behind". Talks mom into getting a newer, flashier, boat based on premise that hard core riders ride behind it.

Or same premise, only witnessed in a video. Say Dad's kids are watching a new wake vid and he sees the same boat over and over. Starts thinking, yah I want that boat, those guys rip, I want to be lumped in with that talent pool.

I say this since it seems to be similar to the history of the SAN, VLX, and the X star.

Now, the reality is, we all know anyone can rip behind any boat. But the general population isnt as serious about riding as those of us on this forum are.
Old    HeHateMe (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-30-2007, 4:14 PM Reply   
Nothing is really holding them back... they are not yet in full swing.. afterall... they have one model... and are still experimenting with some things... these things take time... time will tell...

there will be more and more out in the publics hands... and some will be great... and some will ahve problems... just as anything else that is new to the market...
Old    Eric (wakeboardin2k4)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-30-2007, 4:39 PM Reply   
Is the 8.1L volvo an engine that is easy to find a place to service? That would be something holding me back. I've never even heard of a 8.1L volvo. Do any other major boat companies use it?

I would not be worried about not having a dealer around to much if they were willing to pay another local dealership for any issues that are directly related to Epic. I think a small company is going to be far more willing to work with you on things than a company that is all about the # of units being pushed out the door.

Also like HeHateMe said, the only have one model. Not everyone is interested in a 23 foot boat, before the platform. A lot of people are interested in a 21 footer. Its been rumored that epic is going to develop a 21 right? Any confirmation?

The thing is a monster. Huge sidewalls, serious beam, serious length. Its def not for the first time inboard owner, or anyone who wants to do something other than wakeboard. Its got that drop zone hull that drags the boat deeper into the water as the boat travels. Is that hull going to continue to pull you into the water as you advance to cruising speeds. I know some people hardly ever go more than 25 mph, but some of us do enjoy a nice ride around the wake, and dont want to be loosing extra gas because the hull drags.

Just some thoughts/questions
Old    Dirty D (dkjbama92mariah)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-30-2007, 5:09 PM Reply   
They're all the same GM 8.1 block,but I would take a Volvo or a Crusader over an Indmar or Mercruiser any day of the week. The engine ancillaries (manifolds, raw water pumps,EFI, and ignition) and engine mounting systems are just built better.

That being said, maintenance parts & labor will be more expensive on a Volvo and certified Volvo service techs will be harder to find.

On another note, PCM and Crusader are made by the same company, and i consider Crusader/PCM to be a better motor than Indmar. Which begs the question: why don't more wakeboat builders use them?

As far as I know, Nautique is the only company still using them. My theory is that the boatbuilders use Indmar because they can get them little bit cheaper.

OK,sorry for the thread hijack there and back to the original topic: I would consider the Volvo 8.1 to be a definite advantage, not a disadvantage.

DKJ
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-30-2007, 5:39 PM Reply   
MB and Wakecraft use PCM.
Old    MIKE V (madvlin)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-30-2007, 6:10 PM Reply   
I love a boat that takes out ever having to fill fat sacs!!! Can I Get an AMEN for 4000lbs of built in ballast my brothas!
Old    Jason (azpowerhouse)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-30-2007, 7:24 PM Reply   
After college, I will buy an Epic if they change that nose they have, looks like my last girlfriend's nose, no joke. I dont see many in AZ, but have been looking at some used ones online. Nice boats.
Old    Nick Brown (512boarder)      Join Date: Jul 2004       10-30-2007, 9:20 PM Reply   
they put the volvo 8.1's in the bigger chaparells, like the sunestas. i have seen two sunesta's a 25 footer and a 26 footer with the 8.1's
Old    HeHateMe (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-30-2007, 9:23 PM Reply   
Since you guys brought up the Volvo 8.1 choice...

I would prefer they go back the PCM ZR6... or try a Merc or Indmar.

There are not alot of Epics out there... but out of the first 5 built... 3 came back with blown engines...

So I would like to see them go back to the PCM like they used in the prototype.

Now I give you permission to start bashing me again for bringing up a point... so those Epic lovers can hate all over again.

Sorry... but it is true... There are some problems with the Volvo application in the Epic for some reason... Something to do with oil starvation.
Old    Matt Anderson (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       10-30-2007, 10:30 PM Reply   
First I must say I've owned exclusively Indmar labeled 8.1L's In my last couple of boats, so thats the extent of what I have actually gotten to wrench on. That being said the 8.1 is well known to have some oiling issues even in GM truck applications. These were supposedly solved with some revised Intake Manifold gaskets, and bolts. I have no clue as to why 3 of the 5 8.1's in the Epics have failed, but that leads me to believe it's something with the lot that Volvo sent Epic, or a problem with Epics rigging itself.

Dirty: I'm sorry to say I just have to laugh after reading your post. Please if you have anything that supports the conjecture that Volvo uses better components do share. I know for a fact that there is nothing proprietary about Volvo's EFI and Ignition systems on the 8.1, all standard Delphi sourced electronics. Also as far as I know the block has standard mounting tabs and it's the end users (i.e. MasterCraft, Malibu) responsibility to devise and provide the mounting systems. I just find it humorous that you post an opinion that tells roughly 75% of the people on this board that their boats have inferior power plants and offer nothing to back it up. Finally, not to be long winded but how might you have any clue as to what Indmar charges per unit, and thus that they are the cheaper product?

Old    Tony (guitsboy)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-31-2007, 7:23 AM Reply   
I used to hate the epic's nose too, but after realizing its functionality its growing on me. It allows them to use the running area of a 24' hull on a 23' boat. Perhaps its not the biggest deal in the world, but all these details add up.
Old    Leo Lasecki (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       10-31-2007, 7:33 AM Reply   
Wasn't one of the blown 8.1's from the Epic that was sent to an All Girls Wakeboard Camp. No offense, but I dont know many girls that know how to check oil. The first few hours on an engine will burn a lot of oil, especially an engine like the 8.1. It is no surprise that they blew an engine from not enough oil.

(Message edited by malibuboarder75 on October 31, 2007)
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-31-2007, 7:47 AM Reply   
i have been in some very solid boats that can take a hit and are very well built (correctcraft and mastercrafts)

i would be very hesitant about any new manufacture (there is a learning curve and i dont want to be part of it).

with that being said, i think it will be a great boat with a lot of innovation. but for the mean time, it is a work in progress


(Message edited by clubmyke on October 31, 2007)
Old    HeHateMe (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-31-2007, 8:19 AM Reply   
My understanding of the Epic/Volvo issue is coming from the fact that the motor configuration being in a v-drive application (reverse) starves the back of the motor (front of the boat) of oil. I believe Volvo is working with Epic to sort this out and change some things. I can imagine (when surfing) when you take 1000lbs and put it in one corner of the boat... the oil wants to move to that side of the motor... thus starving other parts of the motor... thus causing cyclinder failure... resulting in lack of power...

Disclaimer - I am not a mechanic. I am not an engineer.

But norries... they are working on it!
Old    Utah Boater (boatutah)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-31-2007, 9:35 AM Reply   
Now we're getting somewhere with this, I like some of the input from you guys. Dante, you make a good point and that is probably a hesitation that most consumers have. Paul, thanks for the input. It sounds like dealer support is huge to everyone, maybe even the #1 reason for purchasing a boat if you are an experienced boat buyer. What constitutes a "great dealer". I've got my own ideas of how to do it, but you guys are all consumers, what are some of the things a great dealer could do to get someone to buy a boat from a newer boat company?
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       10-31-2007, 9:40 AM Reply   
Support the product. If someone buys it and it has a few small problems, treat them like big problems and treat them quickly. Make the customer feel like he is your only customer. communication is key on a lot of issues. Don't ever say "well its a manufacturer problem, you will have to contact them." I bought the boat from you, because you support and push the product. To me you are the manufacturer.
Old    Utah Boater (boatutah)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-31-2007, 10:08 AM Reply   
To me a great dealer doesn't disappear after the sale. Case in point, I sold a boat to a customer 1 hr. to the south of us and he had some electrical issues that can be directly attributed to the manufacturer. Meaning, the boat was wired totally wrong and some things weren't even wired. I personally made the trip to his house to fix the problems. I would've made the trip anyways, but I wasn't worried about making the trip because the said manufacturer reimburses me 100% for parts and labor on warranty issues. So there is something to be said for manufacturers backing their stuff. How does a dealer communicate to a consumer, their commitment to support before the sale?
Old    Utah Boater (boatutah)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-31-2007, 10:19 AM Reply   
Paul, you are dead on that consumers see the dealer as the manufacturer. Epic is looking at a different engine builder and it should be a good move. There are a lot of advantages to this new builder.
Old    Matt Anderson (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       10-31-2007, 5:33 PM Reply   
Ham, not to beat a dead horse but other than adding 1/2 a quart of oil every 2 fill ups or so I've never had any problems with my 8.1's in V-Drive config. I don't think it's hard to configure it with a deep stump oil pan with baffles and a larger oil pickup. I really would like to see what the verdict on these engines from Epic's POV.
Old    HeHateMe (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-31-2007, 8:48 PM Reply   
I think one other thing people look at when they make a big ticket purchase is the amount of depreciation.

Retail price... close to $60,000usd.

And still current model year selling for....

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/516138.html?1193888553

THATS A STEAL!!!
Old    Jason (azpowerhouse)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-11-2007, 8:05 PM Reply   
Saw three at the lake today..
some pros doing some filming. One was white and blue, one red, and one black. Sweet looking boats.
In a few years it will be between a new malibu 23 lsv, and this epic 23.
I am concerned about the engine issue hopefully they will figure it out. It would be interesting to compare the two boats. What do you all think between the two?
Old    Jeff (fuller313)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-12-2007, 6:45 AM Reply   
My buddy got to go out on those epics at Bartlett Lake. He said the models were smokin hot.

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