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Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-17-2007, 11:38 AM Reply   
Learned something new this past weekend. I was driving an older outboard Mastercraft towing a skier. When done with the person's run and turning off the engine, it wouldn't start again. All I got was a click. Did some troubleshooting and banging but no luck. So I got a tow from another ski boat using a ski rope w/out the handle from their ski pylon to the front of the boat I was driving where the trailer strap hooks on. After getting up to about 15mph, I turned the key to on (not start), and throttled forward. Voila! It started running like a champ again. I tried this at the suggestion of the person towing. I never knew you could do this on a boat like on a stick shift car.

Good info for the future.
Old    Michael O (2007_x2)      Join Date: May 2007       10-17-2007, 12:03 PM Reply   
dude that is sweet good thing to know.
Old    Jay (jayc)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-17-2007, 12:43 PM Reply   
I'm more amazed the line didn't snap if you got up to 15mph than the fact it actually worked!
Old    Bill K (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-17-2007, 8:51 PM Reply   
Wow, thats a trip, Brett. You learn something knew all the time.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-18-2007, 5:04 AM Reply   
Never never tow a boat with your pylon. Use the hooks at the back of the boat.
Old    Ken Campos (kcampos)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-18-2007, 1:55 PM Reply   
Who ever said that you tow a boat from the hooks in the back? I have never heard that before
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-18-2007, 2:21 PM Reply   
Good thing your hearing it now. Your pylon is not as strong as the tansom tie downs plus its a nice lever arm to multiply the force.

I would be willing to bet that all owner's manuals tell you not to tow another boat from the pylon.

What does Sanger say?
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-18-2007, 2:33 PM Reply   
http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/archive/index.php/t-3505.html
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       10-18-2007, 2:38 PM Reply   
probably just a bad starter solenoid, next time just jump the solenoid and it'll start right up, unless your battery was dead( I highly doubt it if you were running it all day before hand).
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-18-2007, 3:03 PM Reply   
http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/archive/index.php/t-3505.html
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-18-2007, 3:04 PM Reply   
What does the manual say? I'll eat my words if I'm wrong.

I know my local dealer was flooded with pylon repairs when extended poles were first introduced.

As a mastercraft dealer, his argument against my Malibu purchase was that repair was difficult because the pylon was formed into the fiberglass with no other support structure to rework.

I also had a nautique and supreme that became loose.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-18-2007, 4:33 PM Reply   
Is this TRUE can you "JUMP START" a boat by pulling it?????? I had no idea that this could be done. Is anyone else becides me blown away by this?
Old    T-Bag (nasty530)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-18-2007, 4:42 PM Reply   
Ya, personally I cannot see how it would turn the engine over. With a car, the rubber is in constant friction with the ground beneath it. In a boat, the prop spins and freely in the water. I am not calling BS on it but maybe something else happened and it was just attributed to the towing. IE the starter solenoid cooled off and thus started the engine or something to that effect.
Old    HH99 (headhunter)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-18-2007, 4:45 PM Reply   
You cannot "jump start" a boat, tried it today, doesn't work. More than likely what T-Bag stated, solenoid cooled, bendix released, and it cranked.
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-18-2007, 5:31 PM Reply   
Lets just say I am more than a little skeptical.
I don’t think I would believe it even if I where in the boat
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-18-2007, 10:27 PM Reply   
I tried to jump star my old I/O with no luck but it might work if you have a 1:1 transmission and shift from neutral into forward at speed.
See, another interesting thing to do next summer
Old    Jay (jayc)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-19-2007, 7:32 AM Reply   
I will most likely work on an outboard but it won't work on an inboard or i/o.
Old    T-Bag (nasty530)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-19-2007, 9:21 AM Reply   
I dont think it will work on any type of boat. Think about the compression of the engine. Its not just gonna turn over easily and water isnt exactly the most solid fluid.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-19-2007, 9:26 AM Reply   
...and yet it seems to have worked...
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-19-2007, 10:04 AM Reply   
Some folks are skeptical? That just comes from you lack of knowledge about how some engines work. And I'm by no mean more knowledgeable than most, I'll admit.

I don't know what boats/motors this will work on, and I still don't know what was wrong with the boat - it isn't mine.

This is a 1991 MasterCraft Barefoot 200 with a 200-horsepower Yamaha outboard. After a good run, all I got was a click when trying to restart. So while being towed, I simply turned the key to the on position and started to throttle forward, and it started up. It worked. It's a fact.

Basically I guess the prop was turning and I put it in gear - much like you would a manual transmission in a car, and so it started up.

Like I said I don't know much about engines. I don't work on them and don't care to start. But on a Yamaha outboard - it does work (depending on what the problem is)
Old    Jay (jayc)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-19-2007, 10:12 AM Reply   
I don't know much about fluid dynamics but if water is solid enough for a an engine to turn a prop and move a boat surely its then solid enough that if the boat is moving so is the prop so in turn that should spin the engine over, especially a small motor like an outboard.

On an inboard with a hydraulic gearbox then the prop would not engauge the engine.
Old    Andy Parsons (sanddragon2004)      Join Date: Jul 2005       10-19-2007, 10:15 AM Reply   
a 200hp outboard is no small motor!

I am more inclined to beleive it was what tbag said.
Old    Rob.B (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       10-19-2007, 10:16 AM Reply   
People, you cannot jump start a boat. T-Bag is right on his statement on friction.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-19-2007, 10:23 AM Reply   
To answer the question on towing with the plyon I will quote an email from Scott Pellaton with Sanger "You should never tow another boat from the ski pylon. The rear lifting eyes are designed for this purpose. Thanks, Sanger"

I was on a nautique yesterday and those words were even posted on the pylon and my Malibu paperwork says the same thing.

It goes to show you that just because others are doing it it does not mean its right. You will hear the same thing from other manufacturers, do not tow another boat with the pylon.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-19-2007, 10:39 AM Reply   
Robert, what do you mean you cannot jump start a boat?

It was done!
Old    Andy Parsons (sanddragon2004)      Join Date: Jul 2005       10-19-2007, 10:43 AM Reply   
"Like I said I don't know much about engines."

exactly!
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-19-2007, 10:58 AM Reply   
I think Brett would know if he heard the engine start when he turned the key or after he put it in gear, and I think he would feel the tension if he turned it far enough to crank. You don't need to have driven much to get that, and you don't need to know anything about an engine.

But don't pull from anything other than the eyes on the transom. I actually saw someone towing from a tower once. Grade school physics.
Old    Rob.B (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       10-19-2007, 11:02 AM Reply   
Brett that was an outboard. mechanics on a outboard are diff. I would like to re-state myself and say I/O or V-drives or inboards.
Old    Andy Parsons (sanddragon2004)      Join Date: Jul 2005       10-19-2007, 11:06 AM Reply   
you should not even be able to start the boat when it is in gear. saftey mechanism. something doesnt ad up.
Old    Rob.B (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       10-19-2007, 11:11 AM Reply   
I just spoke to a boat mechanic and he said, If you pull a boat the water will just travel over the propeller. It will not turn you prop and there is not enough friction to turn the transmission which would turn the engine.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-19-2007, 11:21 AM Reply   
Your mechanic is wrong because the boat started. Engines are different, so some it probably doesn't work on and some (like a 200hp outboard Yamaha) it does - as it was proven.

It worked! There's nothing to argue or dispute about except that maybe it only works on some motors.

I was just passing on some info that might help some folks out one day.
Old    Andy Parsons (sanddragon2004)      Join Date: Jul 2005       10-19-2007, 11:50 AM Reply   
generally speaking its not recommended.

I think everybody that reads this quote should take this with a grain of salt.

"Like I said I don't know much about engines."
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-19-2007, 12:24 PM Reply   
It doesn't matter what I know about engines.

It worked. One day, if needed, it might be worth a try. "generally speaking its not recommended." Why - you don't even understand why it worked.

If you don't understand why, it's due to your own lack of knowledge about engines - period. Since you're wrong on this subject, I think everybody should take everything you've said with a grain of salt.

There's nothing to debate here - this happened and worked on an this outboard engine.
Old    Rob.B (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       10-19-2007, 12:36 PM Reply   
Brett I am not talking about outboard engines. I am talking about I/O, V-drives and Inboards. How can you tell a boat mechanic That He is wrong. Are you a boat mechanic?
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-19-2007, 12:39 PM Reply   
I am talking about an outboard. I've stated that several times already. I even said it might not work on other types of engines. I obviously only did it on one and as I've said, don't know about other types of engines.

Read my posts. I've been very clear.
Old    owen sealy (osealy)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-19-2007, 1:03 PM Reply   
mercury/mariner o/b's have a dog clutch. the engine will drive the prop,the prop wont drive the engine, something like the freewheel on a bike.
Maybe a yam is different.????
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       10-19-2007, 5:06 PM Reply   
im not mechanic but i dont see that being even remotely possible.
Old    Jason (azpowerhouse)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-20-2007, 12:47 AM Reply   
Brett you tried this once, is that correct?
How about trying a couple of more times to confirm your hypothesis?
EVERYBODY seems to doubt what happened.
Did you happen to buy a lotto ticket that day?
Old    Cade Sundstedt (cadesun)      Join Date: May 2007       10-20-2007, 9:16 AM Reply   
I have a 4.5 horse merc on my fishing boat and it's prop doesn't even spin when I am trolling or having it pulled by another boat. I find it very hard to believe that a 200HP engine's prop would spin freely.
Old    Peter Sharp (gobigorgohome)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-20-2007, 9:41 AM Reply   
Quote: I have a 4.5 horse merc on my fishing boat and it's prop doesn't even spin when I am trolling or having it pulled by another boat.

Do you troll at 15mph? Or have you looked at the prop whilst being towed at 15mph? I think probably not.

My outboard's prop turns freely when in neutral just by spinning it with my finger. Put it in 15mph water and I know that it'll turn with some speed. Then throw it in gear and I'm inclined to believe that it will have enough momentum to turn the engine over enough for it to fire.

Man, this guy came on here offering an idea that MAY work if you're stranded out on the water and now he's getting slammed for it.
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-20-2007, 9:45 AM Reply   
If you are going along at speed 15 25 45 or what ever and the motor dies or you kill the motor the prop will ratchet so that it will not try to turn the motor or strip the gears. I owned 10 or so barefoot MasterCrafts wth Mercs on them and experienced this for my self on a couple of occasions. I never experienced this in a Yammy but I have to assume they had the same or similar design



Outboards are very easy to start if they are warm 200 hp Mercs used to come with a pull start cord that you could use to start the engine with they where stored in a plastic bag attached to the cowling…..I made use of this a couple of times of the engine had been running and was warm you could pull start is with the rope no problem if the engine was cold…..forget about it!

Still VERY skeptical
Old    Cade Sundstedt (cadesun)      Join Date: May 2007       10-20-2007, 11:08 AM Reply   
Peter - 2 things

1. Yes, I have looked at my outboard's prop once while being pulled by my Nautique at about 10mph... I was board and needed to keep my mind off the rain pelting me.

2. It was not in neutral, it was in gear, just like whatever his name's engine was. If it was in neutral, maybe it would have spun.

He is getting slammed because he offered the wrong explanation to what happened during a very unsafe tow.

(and yes I am aware that towing a 14 ft. aluminum fishing boat at 10mph is bad as well)
Old    Jason (azpowerhouse)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-20-2007, 1:36 PM Reply   
I was towed by a nordic with a 525 in it or so, in our old boat, and he was on the gas pretty good, and hell if we were going 15mph, that is beginner wakeboarding speed, you have to be kidding me, plus brett was on the other boat right? How would he know what speed they were going, he was worried about his boat not starting...
Nothing adds up in this thread, and Brett is baggin everyone (including mechanics?!) for not knowing what they are talking about?
Try this more than once and I might believe it!
Noble prizes are not given out without any research and TESTING, that is learned in 5th grade science 101....

Here is my last 5cents... get an inboard....
Old    Jay Conrad (pwningjr)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-20-2007, 3:05 PM Reply   
Wow. Brett clearly stated that while being towed at 15 MPH, his YAMAHA (as in not a merc or any other brand) engine started after putting the switch to RUN, NOT START, and throttling up.

Give the guy a break.
Old    T-Bag (nasty530)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-20-2007, 3:22 PM Reply   
I am certainly not calling him a liar, and from reading others posts, I dont think they are either. I am sure that from his perspective the boat was jump started. In reality, something else happened and he attributed it to the towing but I am sure he was being totally honest when he thought that the tow was what started the engine. Heck maybe it turned the engine just enough to allow a slight compression release and the starter was able to get it from there. Who knows!!
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-20-2007, 3:54 PM Reply   
A MIRACLE That's what it was!!!

Brett, start a church. Upload

I'll come. I BELIEVE!!!
Old    Jman (jmanolinsky)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-20-2007, 7:35 PM Reply   
Man, you guys are unbelievable! I'm with Peter on this. Cade, did you read the post? His motor wasn't in gear. It was in neutral until he put it in gear. Have you ever jumped a car or bike off. Do you start off in gear with the clutch out? No. You start off with the clutch pushed in until the wheels are rolling fast enough to turn the motor over. You other guys may find it hard to believe, BUT have any of you ever tried what he is talking about with the motor he is talking about? If not, you are the one who needs to do some "research" because it seems to me that the only one who has field tested this is Brett. I'm sorry, but everyone here is calling him a liar. Remember, Brett was there, not you. His profile says he is 37 years old. If he was 17, maybe you should doubt him. Jeeze, I see some of you guys post stuff on here that I know is wrong and you probably just heard it to be so.

Brett, I believe you for what its worth.

Jman
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-20-2007, 8:09 PM Reply   
Well said Jman
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-20-2007, 9:17 PM Reply   
As far as knowing what the speed was, I looked back at the wake and joked about it looked like we were going almost fast enough for me to board behind the boat (which I was half serious about since it would have been 10-15 minutes back to the dock.
A quick test for anyone I guess as far as if the prop would even turn is to just walk out to your boat, turn the key to on, put the throttle forward just a bit, and use something like a broom handle or something other than your hand and see if the prop turns at all. If so, I'd say it's at least a possibility this might work. And maybe it is only on certain outboards.

Never thought this would be a controversial thread. I totally understand some folks needing to see something or experience it first hand to believe it, but don't get basically being called a liar by some.

Oh yeah, and if you're ever in an outboard getting towed and start to fishtail wildly, put the motor down at least some. I thought it'd be better to have the motor up for lest resistance at first, but that was a bad idea.
Old    Jason (azpowerhouse)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-20-2007, 9:55 PM Reply   
In the end... Brett try it next time you get pulled, then it won't be a miracle we will have a yes or no as to to if this actually works. Peace out guys, get out and ride!
Old    PAUL (pnichols)      Join Date: Jan 2007       10-21-2007, 2:28 PM Reply   
Just because someone is a mechanic does not always make them right. How many people have had a car, truck, or boat worked on my a MECHANIC (hit and miss) with no resolve . It happens......just because one mechanic said it's not possible does not make it a fact.
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-21-2007, 2:46 PM Reply   
You can add 2 more mechanics to the list
When I told them separately about this thread they....well lets just say it they laughed.......but hey it could have happened
Old    Big Matt (big_matt)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-21-2007, 5:20 PM Reply   
I am thinking that this might work, under the right conditions. Let's face it, its why they recommend you unplug spark plugs when working on any small engine.
Old    B. C. (wkbrdindmax)      Join Date: Jul 2004       10-22-2007, 1:55 AM Reply   
He wasn't applying for a Nobel prize. He wasn't charging you three easy payments of $49.95 for his advice. He was simply throwing out a tip on what he thought worked out well for him. I know if I'm stuck sometime in a boat with a 200 horse Yammy outboard and she won't start and someone's pulling me back to the dock, I'm gonna give it a shot.

If it doesn't work, how gives a damn? Nothing lost.
Old    Mike B (mlb75)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-22-2007, 3:22 AM Reply   
actually the main reason you take the plugs out is so that you release compression in the engine so that if you turn over the drive line be that prop, blade, wheel, whatever past TDC that the resulting compression doesn't kick it back or complete the stroke possible injuring you in the process.

For what it's worth I also don't believe it to work. If you've ever push started a car or motorcycle you know that when you pop the clutch that there's definite jerk resulting from the compression of the engine acting like a brake and it takes traction to force the engine to turn over. That being said maybe his motor turns over really easy or has very low compression but I still don't think that water flowing over the prop would have enough traction to turn the motor over.

However I'm also not willing to call him a liar and will take him at his word that it did work for him that time who knows maybe he just got really lucky.

I must say it's interesting the treads that get all the attention and posts...
Old    Jay (jayc)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-22-2007, 4:57 AM Reply   
Hopefully someone with some physics and fluids background can do the math but I still think that if a prop can move a boat then it can turn an engine over.

Surely if like everone is saying the water is not solid enough to turn the engine over then the whole prop being able to move a boat concept is out the window? The prop is just a screw, either the prop moves through the water or the water moves past the prop?

I guess all the people saying its BS also dispute how water/tidal turbines work?
Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-22-2007, 3:35 PM Reply   
I can tell you that it would never work on an inboard (direct or V-drive). Without the engine turning the oil pump in the transmission wouldn't operate, and thus no oil pressure and thus the clutches would never engage and thus the engine would never turn.

It is possible for it to happen on an outboard that has a mechanical shift mechanism. If the prop was spinning in neutral it is possible that it had enough momentum built up so that when "forward" was engaged it had enough energy to kick the engine over.

What I am surprised about is that a ski rope was strong enough to pull the boat to 15 MPH.

I also suspect that the engine would not have continued to turn over once the momentum in the spinning prop had been used up. I am sure that it was fortunate that the engine started easily.

Rod
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       10-22-2007, 3:50 PM Reply   
So lets assume that they engine started just like Brett said it did. That would mean that if you running the boat at lets just say 40 mph. The engine died. Since the prop could turn the engine at 15 mph that at 40 there is not doubt that the prop would turn the engine over at a very high rate of speed until the boat is stopped.

Seems unlikley that the manufacure would want that to happen
Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-23-2007, 5:08 PM Reply   
exact same thing happens in your car. Why would that be so bad in a boat?
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-23-2007, 6:14 PM Reply   
What if the boat was strapped down to the trailer when you tryed to jump start it
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-23-2007, 6:15 PM Reply   
This Thread reminds me of
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/500795.html
Old    Robert Hixson (hixsonaz)      Join Date: May 2007       10-23-2007, 6:30 PM Reply   
Maybe I'm wrong, but if you are being towed, wouldn't your propeller be spinning backwards???

I don't know if this would work, but I don't see myself going from 15mph in reverse to forward gear. Engines, transmissions and gears generally hate that.

Oh yea and i always strap er down
Old    Jman (jmanolinsky)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-23-2007, 6:35 PM Reply   
Robert,

You might have thought that one through a little more before you posted. So should a few others here.
Old    Chris (bering_c)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-25-2007, 9:03 PM Reply   
The water would have enough force to turn the engine. Air does it just fine in a small plane. Shut the engine off and it doesn't stop unless you can slow WAY down, or feather the blades with the airflow. Yes, the props are way bigger, but the are still sized for the hp of the engine and the medium it is in. So, the only variable is if the yamaha o/b has a mechanical clutch the does not rely on oil pressure, his must because he said it started. It won't work on most boats because of the clutch thing though....
Old    Robert Hixson (hixsonaz)      Join Date: May 2007       10-25-2007, 10:25 PM Reply   
yur right jman--still doeant sound like a good idea
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-25-2007, 10:55 PM Reply   
Am I the only person that's ever quickly pulled the throttle down to idle after cruising at 40mph? The water continues to spin the propeller, which continues to spin the engine, until the boat gets down to idle speed. It's exactly like downshifting a car. Hell, do it twice. Go 40mph and then pull it down to idle. Then go 40mph and pull it into neutral. It's a big difference.

Now, whether or not you could TOW the boat fast enough to make this happen is another story.

There's absolutely no question as to whether or not a moving boat generates a enough force to spin the propeller and engine. Anybody with a boat can find that out the next time they take their boat out.

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