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Old    Mike (ponyh8r)      Join Date: Dec 2004       12-09-2006, 11:24 AM Reply   
So,

I was thinking. I have owned a Tige and have ridden behind many different boats, to include the VLX which is one of my favorites. Now all of the systems listed above do seem to work and have a positive effect on the way the wakes are shaped.

But, some of the best wakes in the business are also made by boats that don't use any system at all. I would say that without a doubt the 210, X-star, B-52 V-23 are some of the best wakes out there.

So I guess here is my real question, What is the true advantage of drag hardware, trimtabs etc. Why can some companies design a killer wake without them, and are they worth paying for?
Old    kvanderg            12-09-2006, 12:37 PM Reply   
Are they worth paying for?

"Now all of the systems listed above do seem to work and have a positive effect on the way the wakes are shaped"

Sounds like you answered your own question
Old    jeff taggart (cwb_fooguitarlz)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-09-2006, 1:23 PM Reply   
i think a better question is, what is better? TAPS2 or ballast. i was looking in a tige catalog i got in the mail and the wake looks awesome if you have the TAPS set right. and you can also change it on the go without having to fill/empty your ballast tanks/bags.
Old    David (detonate69)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-09-2006, 2:02 PM Reply   
In my experience taps works great for shaping the wake but to truly get a larger size you still resort to good old BALLAST.
Old    jeff taggart (cwb_fooguitarlz)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-09-2006, 2:49 PM Reply   
do you think you can get a tige boat and combine the TAPS2 and the ballast? that would get the best of both worlds wouldnt it?
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       12-09-2006, 3:00 PM Reply   
Trim tabs and "drag hardware" are totally different. A trim tab does not pull the back of the boat down. Plates create no downforce like a wedge. Ride plates are great for adjusting hull attitude in varying conditions, but are in no way, shape, or form, a substitute for ballast. You have to displace the water in order to make a wake. Three of the four boats you listed still need 3k to make the "best wakes out there".
Old    Lucky275 (lcky275)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-09-2006, 4:00 PM Reply   
Taps with addl ballast is better than just taps. I like to ride a more rampy wake where my buddy like a vert wake. We keep the weight the same and just adjust the taps. It helps fine tune the surf wake, as well.
Old    Nick V. (nvip9r)      Join Date: Feb 2004       12-09-2006, 4:02 PM Reply   
But aren't those plates really to make the boat more of an all around boat? Say someone wants to slalom ski? And then the next guy wants to wakeboard? But then I hear that a lot of people don't even use their wedge on the boat? Any particular reason? Hope I am not highjacking the link...lol
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-09-2006, 4:15 PM Reply   
Actually a trim tap or plate that is adjusted up some DOES pull the back of the boat down just like a flap on an airplane wing but it cannot be as effective as a hydrofoil or weight.
I'm not close to good enough to say which is the best for shaping or enlarging the wake but there are other advantages to an adjustable trim plate like Tige or Supra has.
When you're caught in bad weather the ability to adjust the attitude of the hull can make a huge difference in the comfort, dryness, and safety of those in the boat.
You also have an extra button to play with.
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-09-2006, 4:56 PM Reply   
"DOES pull the back of the boat down just like a flap on an airplane wing "

It DOES NOT pull the back of the boat down. When up it allows the back of the boat to be as deep in the water as the hull design will allow. When trimed down it pushes the back of the boat up and the nose down.

"You also have an extra button to play with."

You got that right you can't have to amny buttons to paly with
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       12-09-2006, 6:46 PM Reply   
Incorrect Art. a ride plate adjusted all the way up DOES NOT pull the back of the boat down any more than the same boat with no plate. It's simple hydrodynamics, and not the same as aerodynamics.
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       12-09-2006, 6:59 PM Reply   
The shaping of the hull like on the Supras, Moombas, and Tiges are what sucks it down into the water. Supra and Moomba calls it stepped pockets, Tige calls it a Convex hull, same general ideas.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-09-2006, 7:41 PM Reply   
You can, and I have, used boats before and after trim plates are on them. With boats designed for them, particularly the Tige's convex hull the affect of the plate is much stronger.
Run the boat with out the plate, put the plate on and run in the same configuration with the plate neutral and the boat is the same at a given speed.
Adjust the plate up slightly and the water follows the plate until you get cavitation. This creates negative force on the plate and brings down the stern some. Hydrodynamics are fluid dynamics the same as aerodynamics but the difference in density is huge.
On a boat designed for the change the effect is much greater. The squared off end of the boat on a planing hull is designed to stop the effect of water on the hull. The trim tab extends the effect further back.
Place a spoon back into a running stream of water and you can see the effect of the negative pressure. A trim tab is not as effective as a spoon shape but it, in effect, can add a curve to the water exiting the hull and lift the water up forcing the back of the boat down some.
Try it, then argue some more. If the plate is up too high you get cavitation and lose the downforce but get to keep the drag.
You are right Sparky about the difference in aerodynamics with regard to a flap in that a flap uses fluid on both sides of the shape. I was just trying to make the point more simply.
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-09-2006, 7:45 PM Reply   
Nice spin
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-09-2006, 7:50 PM Reply   
I must be up to late
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       12-09-2006, 8:20 PM Reply   
"The squared off end of the boat on a planing hull is designed to stop the effect of water on the hull. The trim tab extends the effect further back."

...and this is why the plate only "lifts" the hull. There is no significant downforce. Go get some sleep there bud.
Old    Mike (ponyh8r)      Join Date: Dec 2004       12-09-2006, 9:14 PM Reply   
I see what you are all saying. I do understand teh difference between TAPS and a system like the wedge.

I may have phrased the question wrong. I guess i should have asked, why do some of the best wake boats in the world, not have to use em.

Before you answer, I am not saying that boats that do use aren't great wake boats. I am just saying that boats like the X-Star and 210 have great wakes and don't use these type of systems. Are they worth paying for?

If the answer is that these systems are used to change wake shape for multi-sport capability, then I can see the cost. Many, however, like the wedge don't seem to be used for that reason.
Old    r3612            12-09-2006, 9:39 PM Reply   
I would have to agree with mike that plates do shape the wake,,,,,,but the don't make the wake bigger at all. Tiges whole idea is based around the marketing for their boats. In there eyes the plate actually makes the wake bigger. Can be argued both ways, but most of us here INCLUDING me agree that it doesn't. But Tige believes that by having the plate all the way up it makes the wake bigger than when the plate is all the way down forcing the stern of the boat to lift therfore creating less downforce producing a smaller wake. This is true NO DOUBT and therfore in their minds makes the wake bigger to a certain extent....they just choose to market it that way. I call bs but some call genious. Seems to be working, but as stated.... still need ballast period to achieve the best results.

By raising and lowering the plate you change the position of the hull with regards to the stern and bow. The plate position up will give you the peakier wake by causing the stern to ride lower, whereas the plate down on most boats will force the nose down and stern up ramping the wake out.

Case in point Moomba/Supra....When the plate is up you get a nice hard lip with a little bit of a boot.....plate all the way down much more of a rampy feeling great for those who like it and beginners who don't want to be intimidated. It is a very noticeable difference between the position of up and down.

I may be wrong but I think the plates actually came about to compensate for the hook on the back ends of boats to give the boat a little edge on performance. The MC's bu's and CC's seem to have a much much flatter rear point of the hull than those of the Moomba LSV's and Supra's and Centurions. My personal opinion is that when the plate is all the way up it's actually not in use for the most part So the boat would still produce a great wake without it. It just assists in the performance and ride capabilities as well as opens up the boat to perform very well in a variet of different conditions(ie cruising/skiing.and dare i say tubing) as well as some advantages of shaping by letting you contol the level of the running surface.

AS stated best thing is ballast....just and added bonus to adjust the shape for a variety of riders.

The X-star and most of all the bigger MC's now have plates.....CC's now have hrdrogates and Malibu now has a power wedge. ALL just different variations on the same thing. Just different ways to go about it. So would say they are def worth the money IF THEY ARE OFFERED.
Old    Matt Anderson (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       12-10-2006, 2:12 AM Reply   
I have a brand new X-Star an I don't have any trim plate, nor was it an option as of Nov. according to my dealer.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-10-2006, 6:23 AM Reply   
aerodynamics and hydrodynamics are not the same. air can be compressed and water cannot. that copmpressability is what causes there to be a big difference between a pneumatic cylinder and a hydraulic cylinder.

the problem number two with art's theory is that you are mixing two mediums at the stern of the boat: fluid and air. as you raise the trim tab up, it reaches a critical point just past tangent to the running surface at the stearn where air will become an easier medium to move than water. at that point, the air will replace the water that is sucking down the trim tab...it will effectively flow under the trim tab.

for his theory to work, you would either a: have to be in a vaccuum, or b: have to be completely submersed in water.
Old    Louis Teague (loux2)      Join Date: May 2004       12-11-2006, 8:47 AM Reply   
I have a 2003 X2 and was thinking of having a trim plate installed. My reason is when ever I get going faster than 30 mph the boat starts porpoising (spelling?). In other words it bucks like a bronco and I have to slow down. Do you guys think a trim plate would help this situation?
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-11-2006, 8:49 AM Reply   
Absolutely!
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       12-11-2006, 9:03 AM Reply   
Louis, The other thing you can do is put more weight in the bow.
Old    Lionel (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       12-11-2006, 11:19 AM Reply   
Louis, Ed is right. I have the same boat and only had this problem once with too much weight in the back. We moved one person to the bow and it went away.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       12-11-2006, 12:23 PM Reply   
I am a die hard Tige owner and don't buy Art's explanation. You have air above the TAPS and water below it, impossible to compare to an airplane.

The wake size is also affected by the surface area coming in contact with the water. Tige argues that when the TAPS is up the rear of the boat sags and the front rises, so you get less surface area in contact with the water and thus, a bigger wake. I don't think that is much of a difference in real-life situations (you could prove it is true in a lab). Being able to shape the wake is nice. If you have a CC with big ballast and someone decides they want a different sized or shaped wake, you will have to wait for the ballast to unload, with a Tige, adjust your TAPS on the fly and there is a big difference.
Old    Greg w (whitie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       12-11-2006, 7:55 PM Reply   
Ok the short version.
Large wakes come frome water displacment.
"Tige argues that when the TAPS is up the rear of the boat sags and the front rises, so you get less surface area in contact with the water and thus, a bigger wake."
True.
Trim tabs/Taps do the same thing up to the point of tangent, that is increase or decrease a boats running surface. (20ft boat1500lb vs 23ft same wieght) less surface area will make your boat ride deeper in the waterthe result is bigger wake.
1 or 2 feet no 4-6 inches most likely.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-11-2006, 9:09 PM Reply   
they may market TAPs that way, but to do so would be physically incorrect. TAPs in the up position, like any other trim tab, is like running no trim tab at all. therefore, the argument that TAPs makes the wake larger is incorrect because it is the lack of TAPs that actually makes the wake larger by allowing the hull to run at its natural attitude.
Old    Greg w (whitie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       12-11-2006, 9:33 PM Reply   
Worm The hulls natural attitude has been compromised. When they incorperated the taps into the disign of the boat with the taps system in place you start from 0 then you have a +/- taps, and you can't buy a tige w/o taps.

(Message edited by whitie on December 11, 2006)
Old    Big E. (wakesetter101)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-12-2006, 5:16 AM Reply   
Louis, it is nice to have the wakeplate just for that reason alone. It also gives you a better hole shot and helps you plane faster when your loaded. It also like someone said above, gives you either a lip or more rounded wake to suit whatever the rider wants. Love it.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-12-2006, 5:19 AM Reply   
when TAPs is all of the way up it is the same as no TAPs at all. at this setting, the attitude of the hull while underway is not affected. whether you can buy a Tige with or without TAPs is irrelevant to the argument.

when TAPs was first introduced to a Tige hull, it was to combat porpoising. they branded it TAPs as a marketing move. the joke used to be that it stood for Tige Anti Porpoising System...now many manufactures are using the same type of equipment. in a way, they revolutionized the market place by making it acceptable to have trim tabs on the back of tow boats plus it allows for quicker acceleration...

(Message edited by tdc_worm on December 12, 2006)
Old    TK (swab791)      Join Date: Mar 2005       12-12-2006, 10:14 AM Reply   
Upload


Another FINE example of the wedge
NOT RIPPING OUT THE STERN OF A BU
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-12-2006, 11:41 AM Reply   
It's kind of obvious that it wasn't the wedge that broke the prop and bent the rudder. But maybe they could engineer a sheer pin to make up for gross driver error.
Old    christy smith (wake4fun)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-12-2006, 12:03 PM Reply   
The taps style plates don't make the wake bigger...they only allow you to shape the wake. you still need good old ballast to make a larger wake. You can go from clean and crisp for wakeboarding to mushy soft for waterskiing. MC does not put a plate on the X Star. No one wants to ski behind an X Star.
Old    Meathead (meathead65)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-12-2006, 12:12 PM Reply   
tdc is right...Tig'e took a big risk with TAPS...back when it came out, they took themselves OUT of the slalom market by losing their AWSA approval because "non static" hulls were not allowed on approved towboats.
Old    r3612            12-12-2006, 1:33 PM Reply   
That has nothing to do with the wedge. Title should read another FINE example on where not to drive. All driver on that one.


Regardless of a wedge or not....if you hit something the wedge is barely longer than the rudder....your gonna loose everything anyway....Rip out your rudder, driveshaft. and really mess up the engine. Guarantee you hit whatever they hit with any MFG's boat its gonna be hell and a whole lot of $$$$$$.
Old    Lucky275 (lcky275)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-12-2006, 7:42 PM Reply   
If he or she didn't have the Wedge deployed, they would not have ripped the transom out of that boat.


Did Tige offer boats without TAPS, and were they ever AWSA approved? ***(NM, I found the answer)***

(Message edited by lcky275 on December 12, 2006)
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-12-2006, 8:11 PM Reply   
As Lucky would have found Tige did not take themselfs out of the slalom market.
To get awsa aproval all they or anyone with a bennett trim tab has to do is install a static plate adjust it to the best slalom position and take it to the test Upload
Old    dan w (future)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-12-2006, 10:56 PM Reply   
the thing i like most about my wakeplate is when we are not riding and just trying to get from point a to point b if the water conditions change and the boat starts to porpuse the plate solves it in seconds. on the flip side if the water is flat you can dial the plate in and get a couple more mph on the top end. i also would have to agree that it doesn't make the wake bigger but will change it to make it steeper or more rampy,and flatter if someone wants to ski
Old    Meathead (meathead65)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-13-2006, 10:15 AM Reply   
Kevin,

Am I incorrect in saying that in the mid-late 90's that there was no provision for "modifying" the wake plate over to static?...I believe that the AWSA made those allowances in the last 6 or so years as "adjustable" plates became the norm on so many builder's boats.

I have been out of the competitive slalom scene for so long now I may be way off base, though.

What I do remember is that for at least one year we could not use the Tig'e for class C sanctioned events, and I thought that the TAPS was the reason for the non-compliance.
Old    Sharky (sharkyvonmarks)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-13-2006, 10:35 AM Reply   
T.A.P.S. (to alter a porpassing shift) same w/ a trim tap. Trim taps are more of a bandaid on a bad hull design. Tige's are designed to have the taps. I'm not fond of either but to each there own.
Old    Luciano Grimblat (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-13-2006, 11:06 AM Reply   
"Trim taps are more of a bandaid on a bad hull design"

so is power trim on sterndrives???

if you really think that you're yet to drive many boats
Old    Lucky275 (lcky275)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-13-2006, 11:52 AM Reply   
meathead, you are correct.

what the hell is a trim tap or porpassing?
Old    Louis Teague (loux2)      Join Date: May 2004       12-13-2006, 12:34 PM Reply   
Big E., thank you for the advise. I wonder if any has ever installed trim taps on a X2? If a boat does not come stock with the trim plate will it cause problems if you install one. I think I would really like to have this system on my boat. Any other thoughts?
Old    Sharky (sharkyvonmarks)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-13-2006, 2:01 PM Reply   
Luciano..... completely different drive system NOT the same thing at ALL bro different hull design also. Sterndrives are a much more agessive deadrise w/ lifting strakes and the purpose of i/o trim is to lift the boat out of the water for less hydro drag... maybe you need to drive more boats??
Old    entrust clothing (entrustclothing)      Join Date: Jul 2005       12-14-2006, 9:04 AM Reply   
i love the wakeplate on my mobius xlv, it's really nice for surfing cause i can change the wake from tall to long if i like. and IMO the xlv has the 2nd best wake ive ever ridden, the 210 is 1st
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-14-2006, 10:48 AM Reply   
Porpoise, Porpoising, porpassing, non of us get our spleling write all the thyme.
-the bow hopping like a porpoise swimming when not just crossing a wake-
but I'll assume you know that.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-14-2006, 10:54 AM Reply   
Trim adjustment will help almost any boat. And hydrofoil wings on a sterndrive don't correct for bad sterndrive design, they just make them better.
Trim adjustsment is like bold or italic in your typing. It lets you do more but it doesn't make a new computer.
Old     matt c (curtisco24)      Join Date: Dec 2005       12-14-2006, 11:04 AM Reply   
You can put a trim plate on an x-2. I have seen them on several. It should help keep the nose down. Also, drain the rear tanks before you run at high speeds or it will never sit down.
Old    r3612            12-14-2006, 11:54 AM Reply   
AS again I will say I have seen them on X-stars as well. The dealer around Lake of the Ozarks area stocked 2 of them in the showroom.....maybe they were aftermarket....but anyhow all the pickle forks they ahd on the showroom at the time had them.....though they didn't have an X-2 as that was being driven by an interested party.
Old    Luciano Grimblat (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-15-2006, 5:48 AM Reply   
Rich, trim tabs adjust planning hull altitude/angle on almost any hull, inboard, sterndrive or outboard, that's what they are for.
Planning altitude/angle is part of what defines a wake shape.
On tiges they are essential because of the convex hull, on other boats I agree they may not be needed, but they always help a bit at least.

Having the ability to change planning angle allows you to get optimal navigation and even fuel economy in different conditions
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-15-2006, 4:12 PM Reply   
If Tige was not approved at some point it was not because of taps they are aware that they only have to replace taps with the manual trim plate. If they where not approved one year it was because they decided not to test

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