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Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-17-2006, 9:08 PM Reply   
If you had 2 sets of these tower component speakers cans, what would you put in them?

Specs of cans: 8.0" wide can with 2" tweeter opening, this will accomodate 6.5" mid driver and all the way up to a 1 7/8" tweeter. Inside opening of is 5.75. 10" deep.

Power is 300 watts per side on a 2 ohm load(4 ohms per can wired parallel). Note: The grill will need to be 8 inches across.

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Old    Brent (blaydeman)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-18-2006, 1:58 AM Reply   
speakers
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 7:47 AM Reply   
Good answer

Which speakers?
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-18-2006, 8:23 AM Reply   
B&C pro audio drivers
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 9:36 AM Reply   
clubmyke, do you have specific B&C drivers you know that will fit these cans for the midbass and tweeter ? The specs on B&C look great.

I could not find anything on pricing.
Old    Kirk Johnson (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       10-18-2006, 9:39 AM Reply   
Put these in the cans, get 2 more cans then you can put some HLCD's in those and have a decent pro audio system, just missing some of the lower frequencies.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=294-650
Old    Kirk Johnson (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       10-18-2006, 9:42 AM Reply   
Here is a pic of my pro audio setup on the tower. 4 cans pretty much like the ones you have, 2 6.5" midbass drivers and 2 HLCD's. This will be a ton louder and sound much better than any car audio you put in those cans.

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Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 9:52 AM Reply   
Any ideas on tweeters for these component cans?

The cans I have are for the component drivers.

The B&C look good for a midbass driver that could be used in one set of cans. I do have two sets of cans. The B&C is spec'd for 150-8000hz.
Do you know of anything that will go down to 80hz?
Old    Kirk Johnson (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       10-18-2006, 10:23 AM Reply   
David,

You could use these Eminence drivers, that is what I used in my system actually.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-400

Then use a crossover, wire everything into parallel and bridge your amp to get a final impedence of 4ohms!!

Here is a good crossover:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-142

I would use a total of 4 cans, and then use these for the hlcd's with these horns:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-525

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=264-306&DID=7


I don't know what you would do for that little tweeter opening, maybe put some sort of light in there or something. If you put pro audio in for midbass it will totally drown out any car audio tweeter that would fit in there.

It came down to the same thing for me, I didn't have the component cans, mine don't have the place for the tweeter, so it was easier for me. BTW, MB Quart 6.5" grills cover the can perfectly and that is what I used as my grills. You can sometimes find them on ebay, or go to a local MB Quart dealer and see if they have any left from an install. Let me know if you need any more help.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-18-2006, 10:34 AM Reply   
david,

80 hz is too low for towers...even for 8" & 10" drivers on tower speakers..it takes waaayyyyy to long for the lower frequencies to get out there (you would have to add another woofer and time delay the crap out of it)..

most of the tower speaker manufactures crossovers (nvs,wetsouds etc..) are at 150hz - 200 hz (estimate..i am pretty close though).. you can go lower but i would use a steeper crossover (18db or 24 db)..

in regards to the hcld, get the cheapest b&c or selenium and the b&c woofers.. the larger hcld's ones will overpower the woofer.
Old    redneckonaboard06            10-18-2006, 11:09 AM Reply   
KJ, how does your sound when just sitting in and around the boat? Is it harsh or just right? I spend most of my time anchored up and jamming out the tunes, but will be boarding and want to hear the music also.
Old    redneckonaboard06            10-18-2006, 11:23 AM Reply   
Actually, If I were to take the box I'm currently finishing (custom fiberglass) and add 4 drivers and 4 horns to it, instead of the 8 6,1/2's I've been planning on, will it be too much or just enough? HAHA
Old    Nick (ndavis03)      Join Date: Jul 2006       10-18-2006, 11:42 AM Reply   
KJ,

How did the square-shaped horn lense mount to the circular cans? Do you have closer pictures of your speakers?
Old    Kirk Johnson (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       10-18-2006, 12:38 PM Reply   
Jarrod,

Around the boat it still sounds good, but the sound will actually project far enough it will probably sound better 20-100 feet behind the boat. It doesn't sound harsh if you are just hanging out unless you absolutely crank it. Get some good interior speakers with a good sub and it will sound nice. If you are doing a fiberglass enclosure I would for sure go with pro audio, it is going to project sound to the rider much better. I would go with 4 8" drivers and 2 high end HLCD's.

Nick,

Good question. I made a template out of fiberboard and attached to HLCD and Horn to it and then attached it to the can. It is really easy to do.

I will try and find some pics of how I put it all together and post them on here.
Old    Kirk Johnson (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       10-18-2006, 12:46 PM Reply   
Here is a pic of the hlcd with horn but not yet with the template sitting in the can. You can see how to make the template, pretty simple. I made a crossover board and mounted it down by my amps, then ran 4 speaker wires thru the tower.

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Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 12:55 PM Reply   
What type of cone material is on the B&C ?? It looks like a paper cone. Did I mention the speakers could get wet-- I'll try not to-- but I think it is worth mentioning.
Old    Nick (ndavis03)      Join Date: Jul 2006       10-18-2006, 12:56 PM Reply   
KJ,

Thanks for all of the good info. I currently have a fiberglass tower box from liquidtrends, that houses 4 kicker 6X9s. I was thinking of just adding 2 hlcd in cans similar to yours. What effect do you think this will have? Would a crossover help?
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-18-2006, 1:23 PM Reply   
Not sure what you should do with the little tweeter goody. I have all this stuff in a box except for the crossovers as I ended up with enough to build a second set. I also have four 8" cans. I will sell the whole kit for $400. PM me if anybody is interested. This system rocks. I will even include some "tech support".
Upload
Upload
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Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-18-2006, 1:25 PM Reply   
The new 8" cans I have are black power coated, not polished (the polished gets tarnished pretty quickly).
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-18-2006, 1:47 PM Reply   
KJ, Thanks for sharing - cool project.

Jarrod, If I had a tower box with 8 - 6 1/2" holes cut in it, I'd go with 6 Pro-Audio Midbass and 2 HLCDs. 4 HLCDs are way too efficient for 4 6.5" midbass drivers to keep up with.

something *like* this
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-400
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 2:06 PM Reply   
KJ, What diameter are your cans?
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-18-2006, 3:58 PM Reply   
here is a link to KJ's cans:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Speaker-Can-sets_W0QQitemZ300036635486QQihZ020QQcategoryZ23807 QQcmdZViewItem

don't forget clamps!

Or

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wake-board-tower-speaker-can-with-clamp_W0QQitemZ7170075753QQihZ015QQcategoryZ23807Q QcmdZViewItem
Old    Kirk Johnson (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       10-18-2006, 4:19 PM Reply   
Mikeski,

Why didn't you end up finishing your project?

David, diameter is almost 8", if I remeber correctly just shy of 8".

Nick, I wouldn't put 2 HLCD's in with 4 6x9's, the sound won't be very good. The HLCD's are way too efficient to be paired with a car audio 6x9.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-18-2006, 5:08 PM Reply   
i may be in the minority here...but you should (theoretically) be able to run 2- hcld and 2-6.5's and sound better than a 8" coaxial...(requires the right components, amp, and setup)

- 1" hcld's like the seleium 150's (ie small)
- 6.5 woofers like the b&c,rcf, beyma (high power & highly efficent)
- correct crossover..
- high quality amp..
- right horn housings/throat...

couple factors come into play:

-ability to use a full blown horn body that doesnt interfere with the mid/bass driver (i would suspect about the same cone area when compared to a 6.5"..the 6.5" may actually have more)
-super high quality/high efficent 6.5" than a mediocre 8"
-crossover designed to run the 6.5" more and the hcld less driven by a high quality amp (4 channel with a electronic crossover or 2 channel running mixed mono chanels would allow adjustment and increase efficency..
-
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 5:37 PM Reply   
any crossover recommendations?

I agree the 6.5 BC may have more surface area because the HLCD is not taking away that area compared to coaxial 8. And it is more efficient in terms of the specs.

I figured out what to do with the tweeter part of the can-- CUT IT OFF-- no really, I will use it with a piece of 1/4 inch aluminum flat bar stock and weld across the opening and top of the tabs to make a quick release bracket similiar to mikeski's design, which by the way is a good idea and fits my needs. I like the idea of the tower bracket holding the speaker while I tighten it down.
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 5:41 PM Reply   
KJ,
Did you change towers or is that a different set up from your first picture?
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-18-2006, 7:28 PM Reply   
crossover is a tough one....I have no idea when it comes to passive...I can take apart my skylon and give someone the values to figure it out (where is that guy from the line driver thread ?)
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 10:12 PM Reply   
Looks like a 2 way crossover crossed at 2500hz will do the trick. But looking for some input as well
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-18-2006, 10:28 PM Reply   
you might be able to even go higher with a steeper rate... however you might have to bring down the hcld a smige..
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-18-2006, 10:45 PM Reply   
Are those B&C speakers just paper cones??

What about these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/FOCAL-Component-7-Inch-midrange-woofers-New-woofer_W0QQitemZ260042473615QQihZ016QQcategoryZ187 99QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-18-2006, 11:00 PM Reply   
i dont know for sure..

but i would hold out on the focals (great drivers though) due to lower sensitivity and power handling - very few 6.5" can take 200 rms..

another driver worth looking at is the phl... these are marine grade pro audio drivers out of france (kinda hard to find though and pricey)..

another consideration (just remembered) would be image dynamics chamelon drivers...they would be the closest car audio driver to a pro audio speaker (91 db sens(decent) and they can easily handle & lots of power... no problem throwing 200 rms at them.. the really good news is they are cheap compared to the others.. i think is a great option..

btw, they also make a 6.5 idq but they are really rare and go for $$$$... i run these in my boat and they are really, really incredible..here is a pair that recently went on ebay (gulp !!!!) i have a couple 2 nos pairs of these but i think i am going to hang onto them for my car install..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AME WA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220035950450&rd=1&rd=1


(Message edited by clubmyke on October 18, 2006)
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-19-2006, 12:42 AM Reply   
In the middle picture of my post above you can see that I started with the crossover recommended by Eminence but I didn't like it so I built my own. I ran 18db on the HLCD's at 3300hz and 6db on the top side of the 8's, 1500 on the one and 3500 on the other since one had a hump in the curve above 1k. This setup also brings things back into phase if you wire the HLCD's out of phase (18db -> 270 degree phase shift, 6db -> 90 degree phase shift). My first attenuation circuit provided 8db of attenuation on the HLCD which sounded very smooth but the Polks in my boat are so bright that they sounded dull so I changed it out to 4db of attenuation so I could set the EQ in one position for both the tower and the boat. Depending on the rest of the setup something between 4 and 8db should work well. In hindsight I don't know if I would even put crossovers on the 8" driver's top side at all? I ran the amps internal crossover in highpass at about 180hz, this was with 320 watts to each speaker, you could go lower with less power or higher with more.

Crossovers are easy to build if you can handle a soldering iron. Just silicone the components to a piece of plastic or paneling. There are lot's of crossover calculators on the web. Everything is explained very clearly on www.bcae1.com if you have time to do some reading. None of this stuff is rocket science but takes patience and and understanding family. My testing included several trips to the local transit center parking lot on weekends where I could blast the speakers without fear of reprocussion from the neighbors or police.

Have fun.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 1:05 AM Reply   
mikeski,

mind if i call you to pick your brain on passive crossover mods ? the site is helpful but i am clueless when it comes to this stuff.
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2006, 2:13 AM Reply   
David,

Focal makes nice equipment. I have a friend that has a set of 3 Focal Studio monitor speakers. They are seriously the best sounding things I've ever heard.

Those Focal Speakers are 90db efficient. Let's assume you end up with a HLCD that's 105db efficient. That means that your HLCD is 5 times more efficient. It's like taking a Geo Metro that gets 50 MPG and matching it with a Hummer that gets 10 and then hoping they will produce near the same results. It can be done, you just have to get the metro down to near 10 MPG. (in this analogy, the gas mileage is the volume level)

If you could find a driver that's between 93 and 96db efficient you'd be better off. At 96db, the HLCD is only 3 times more efficient.

Another way to look at this is when you're at max volume, a 93db speaker will sound like it's turned up one more notch when compared to a 90db. A 105db compression driver will sound like it's up 5 more notches compared to a 90db.

I do have some concerns about this project though. And maybe some of the guys with more experience can correct or add to this. I don't think that a pair of 6.5" mid bass drivers will work really well when paired up with a pair of HLCDs. I don't have the vocabulary to describe this point, though it seems that there is an advantage to going with big mid-bass drivers (ie: 8" or even better 10")

At 6" diameter the area is 28" (6.5" driver)
At 7.5" diameter the area is 44" (8" driver)
At 9.5" diameter the area is 70" (10" driver)

So you'd need 5 6.5" drivers to match a pair of 10" driver's surface area. There are some models of NVS that use a pair of 10" drivers to each HLCD.

Maybe I'm off-base and surface area doesn't matter. Will a 6.5" driver that can handle 200watts RMS produce the same results that a 200wrms 10" driver can?

(Message edited by yosquire on October 19, 2006)
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 2:24 AM Reply   
craig,

i agree with you but would suggest looking at the original post....btw, keep in mind image dynamics pairs up a hcld with a 6.5... granted a 8" or 10" would be better but he asked for 6.5"....
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 2:28 AM Reply   
craig,

i agree with you but would suggest looking at the original post....btw, keep in mind image dynamics pairs up a hcld with a 6.5... granted a 8" or 10" would be better but he asked for 6.5"....

btw, to answer your question comparing the 6.5 to a 10 all things being equal ....no.. however a ultra high quality 6.5 with a seperate hcld can hold its own againest a mediocre 8" coaxial anyday of the week providing it is set up right....
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 7:59 AM Reply   
A lot of the 8 inch speakers will fit too, but the B&C 8 inch will not due to octagonal shape, clubmyke said it's a smidge too big-- and it is.
It's 8.8 inches across. I am open to modifying the cans to accomodate an 8 inch driver like mikeski did in his 007 double 8 project.
Old    Kirk Johnson (akdoc)      Join Date: Feb 2004       10-19-2006, 7:59 AM Reply   
David,

We got a new boat, but the setup stayed the same exect for taking the crossovers out of the cans and mounting them by the amps.

Look at the crossover link that I posted toward the top of this post, it is passive at 2500 Hz, should do the trick for most 6" midbass, Hlcd setups. Mikeski knows more about the crossover stuff than I do so I would make sure to post on here before you buy your stuff just to make sure it all works.
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 8:04 AM Reply   
I feel, based on what I know, it is almost safe to say a 6.5 will not work without choking the HLCD. That defeats its efficiency in my opinion.
This is based on the power I have available for this project (300x2)

There are also 7 inch drivers out there--any opinions on those? I personally hate the oddball size. And would lean more towards an 8 inch driver.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 8:35 AM Reply   
the b&c mounting is 210mm vs the standard 198mm-200mm... if you got the extra room the b&c....btw, beyma makes a 200mm mounting...
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2006, 9:11 AM Reply   
Another thing to consider in terms of efficiency is if you're running 300 watts with a speaker that's 93db efficient, it'll take 600watts to get the same results out of a 90db speaker. Or, if you've got a 96db efficient speaker at 300watts, it'll take 1200 watts to make a 90db perform the same -- (theoretically. As no mid-bass suitable for tower mounting can handle 600w or 1200w)
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2006, 9:16 AM Reply   
btw: I did read the original post and he said 8" can that can accommodate 6.5" speakers. I must have missed it where it was revealed that an 8" driver could fit in those cans.

I haven't looked at Image Dynamics much.
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2006, 9:21 AM Reply   
Here's a question I have that I've never found any information about.

You want your frequency response to be mostly flat from 150hz up to 20khz. As you're working with a group a drivers, you want the produced response from the group to be flat as well.

If you have a HLCD that is SPL matched to the Midbass at +3db power, then you turn the power up to +18db and the HLCD becomes, lets say, 3db louder than the mid-bass, How do you compensate for that in a passive cross over? In my playing with pro-audio systems, this 'accelerating HF driver' effect has seemed to be true.

(sorry for the Hi-jack, this has been bugging me for quite a while)

(Message edited by yosquire on October 19, 2006)
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 10:21 AM Reply   
Look at mikeskis project he did using these type of cans. Most 8 inch drivers can fit with a little cutting of the opening.

You are right on with the power matching issues between the driver and HLCD. The 8 inch driver can meet the power differences. Now, which driver?

Next step is selecting the right crossover points. I am hung on this one and need help.
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 10:32 AM Reply   
I like the DH200e-e for the HLCD driver. The horn choice is either exponential or bi radial. The exponential can go to a lower hz but I am leaning towards the bi radial design. Also, the cross over will occur at a point higher than the lower hz anyway. I think the cross over point being higher (above 2500 hz) is a key here.

Look at Parts Express part numbers 264-225 for the driver. And 264-306 for the exponential horn or 264-308 for the bi radial horn. This set up will fit in the cans.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 11:16 AM Reply   
would suggest to take a look at the very cheap selenium 150...it is used in a wide range of systems already (image dynamics and the previous skylon reference-oops let a secret out) the main part of a hcld system is the horn body...

it also has a cheap replacement diaphram if you need one..
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 11:34 AM Reply   
There is a 6 dollar difference in drivers but a huge power handling difference if I have the correct Selenium 150 you are referring about. Is this it? The DT 150 super tweeter:

Upload


Here is the DH200e-e below:



Upload This compression driver utilizes a 1" throat and delivers exceptional smoothness, clarity, and detail. Features a titanium diaphragm and 1-3/4" KaptonŽ voice coil. The DH200E-E provides wide band response, high power handling, and high SPLs perfect for professional sound use. Utilizes standard 1-3/8"-18 TPI thread.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 12:32 PM Reply   
that's it....they are pretty good sounding drivers without any severe peaks...that's the driver skylon used as well as id

in regards to power to hclds....10 to 20 watts rms is MORE than plenty(i doubt if you`ll ever go ever 10 watts...it is LOUD with a 100 db efficent driver....they don't need a lot...a lot goes back to the throat/body used...

finding hclds is easy, you can go cheap here... finding 8` standard size high quality midbass/woofer drivers is a different story...
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2006, 1:25 PM Reply   
Clubmyke,
Curious, do you work for Skylon?
Old    Brad Duffy (the_madness)      Join Date: May 2003       10-19-2006, 1:54 PM Reply   
Can the HCLDs be run from deck power and use the fader to tune them down? Then power say four 6" mid-bass driver with a two channel amp. Or is it better to go with a two way crossover and an L-pad to tune down the power to the HCLDs?

(Message edited by the_madness on October 19, 2006)
Old    Eric (wakeboardin2k4)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-19-2006, 2:28 PM Reply   
i vote JL audio speakers 8 inch mids with tweaters.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 2:43 PM Reply   
lol ;)))))) I don't work for skylon..

nope, in medical for a living...i've been around car and home audio for awhile...

btw, I have modified skylon reference 4 on my boat (their first hcld model that image dynamics designed )...they aren't perfect, but I really like the lightweight 2 bolt mounting in my situation...once I get the crossover / drivers dialed and my top secret mod they will be...

brad, I would avoid running anything off the deck....a little zapco refernce 200 with a built in crossover would do the trick on hclds...
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 4:27 PM Reply   
Here's another Pro Audio 8 inch it is the BETA 8A by eminence:

Performance optimized for midrange use between 400Hz and 4kHz in multi-way systems. Also suitable for vocal P.A., keyboards, club music systems, stage monitors and bass guitar. The Beta 8 has a 2" polyamide-imide coated two-layer 29 ga. aluminum voice coil, kapton coil former, 34 oz. magnet, vented core, paper cone with cloth edge, and a paper dust cap. Available in 8 ohms.

Specifications:

Nominal Basket Diameter: 8", 203.2mm
Impedance: 8 ohm
Power Rating: 225W rms
Resonance: 58Hz
Usable Frequency Range: 55Hz - 4kHz
Average Sensitivity 1W @ 1m: 99dB
Magnet Weight: 34oz.
Gap Height: 0.312", 7.94mm
Voice Coil Diameter: 2", 50.8mm

Any ideas on treating a paper cone and dust cap for moisture??
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 4:30 PM Reply   
JL Audio makes pretty good 6.5's they sound nice and are very expensive too

Does anyone know who wetsounds uses to make their speakers? Just wondering if they have a 8 inch non coaxial Pro Audio driver available to the public.
Old    Tim White (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       10-19-2006, 6:04 PM Reply   
David,

We take a different approach to our product design. Rather than take an off the shelf driver or mix of drivers and parts. We designed everything from the ground up, down to the cone itself. Our drivers are a proprietary design. Take a look at our site to read more about them and the technology behind them. We designed our drivers to work as a unit. Housing, crossover etc...with the drivers.

So we do not offer any raw drivers for sale at this time. As to get the best performance, you would need the entire system.

Wish I had something for you, Good luck with the system, I hope that you find something that works out for you.

Tim-Wet Sounds
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2006, 6:23 PM Reply   
David,
"The Wet Look" for treating the cones.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=340-510

It'll reduce SPL and have an affect on frequency response.
Old    Ryan (bremsen)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-19-2006, 6:54 PM Reply   
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/79257.html

Also check out the HLCD project article on DIYtower.com
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 7:00 PM Reply   
Tim,
I have seen your drivers and your designs. They are very nicely done. I congratulate you for putting it all together and taking it to the market. It is obvious they are a success and well received too. Wetsounds are great. NVS are great. Rubicons are great.

For the DIY guys, I decided to throw this subject around WW again. I know there is high interest in this topic. Some really galant efforts have been made and some turned out pretty good. There is always a way to improve and to get something accomplished when enough minds attend to it. This also creates a sense of achievement, team work and a lot of pride.

We are interested in your thoughts for us DIY guys. Which Pro Audio driver, in an 8 inch, do you think works well that is not a proprietary or intellectual property design that can be purchased by the public? Please give us your feedback and thoughts, we know its asking alot of you. So, thank you in advance for input.
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 7:41 PM Reply   
Ryan,
Excellent info-- thanks!!

Duane, if you are out there, any input from you is much appreciated.
Old    all eyez on me (ponte_06_x2)      Join Date: Jan 2006       10-19-2006, 7:51 PM Reply   
hey david insted of asking for duanes help why dont you buy a set of nvs. feed the man
Old    Tim White (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       10-19-2006, 8:09 PM Reply   
David,

Well put. I agree 100%. There are quite a few DIY out there and I too love seeing interesting ideas and takes on products for our market.

The link Ryan put up is a good start. Take some of those ideas and maybe find something similar in specs but different, just to try new things. Clubmike put some interesting choices but I think most would wind up being cost prohibitive. As the Eminence or Selenium are about half the cost. And both are good drivers. As long as you are OK with paper, use the spray like craig linked to for some help on that.

The crossover is going to be a lot of trial and error. So just take your time with it and play with different versions to get something that suits your taste.

Tim-Wet Sounds
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 8:20 PM Reply   
I like the NVS, Wet Sounds and Rubicons.

I'm going to try to build my own. I can always go buy it from someone else. It is like painting my own house, or fixing my pool or car or boat-- I would do that sort of thing first or at least try. It's a sense of accomplishment too.
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 8:26 PM Reply   
Tim,
In private messages back and forth with others interested in this topic, the crossover issue has been brought to the top of the list. The HLCD will overdrive the midrange. The L Pads is a band aid for that. Yes, it is a major trial and error point. Any input is appreciated.
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2006, 8:27 PM Reply   
I built my own pro-audio setup. Then I bought Rubicons.

Though, having to do it again I'd do it all the same. well, except for the Rubicon part, that'd probably become a Wetsounds part....and may still.

David,
I read a few good articles on this subject in the last two days:
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover/xoverhelp.html
This article is about Bi-amplification, but he goes through the math about how much power you need to match HLCDs to Mid-bass:
https://myeporia.eporia.com/resources/company_38/techpaper104.pdf

I haven't read this one yet:
https://myeporia.eporia.com/resources/company_38/techpaper102.pdf



Here's an adjustable L-Pad:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-262



(Message edited by yosquire on October 19, 2006)
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 8:38 PM Reply   
I understand completely that comment. I have a goal of lightweight too!! Don't get me wrong, all three are excellent choices. And I have an opportunity to hear the Wet Sounds using my set up from someone who has them near me. I am still a DIY guy. I have done my whole system and it is good. I have not done the tower speakers yet that is a work in progress. It never ends...
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 9:30 PM Reply   
What do you think of using the 4 cans with 8 inch eminence Beta A 8's and 1 more box or can with the HLCD set up. Using a wider dispersion horn to cast the highs a little wider. ???
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-19-2006, 9:52 PM Reply   
david,

have you heard any hcld tower speakers (skylon,nvs, or wetsounds) ? they are plenty loud with the right amp... plenty of sound out to the rider (if i am not mistaken- all use the same throat body design in their non coaxial designs)... to get wider dispersion is really easy... run a mixed mono signal vs stereo..

there are plenty of 8" drivers that are far better than the eminence beta(usa) or the wetsounds(custom china) or rubicon(diamond audio-car) i say this in no disrespect to either-all are fine drivers... however there are better...alot better...european drivers are the best in the world (dynaudio,focal,seas,b&w,scanspeak,kef,tannoy, tad, morel...and the other pro audio drivers just to name a few)

the reason you dont see b&c,rcf,beyma,phl(real pro audio marine drivers) in the aboved mentioned manufactures is cost...the above mentioned drivers are 2x-4x the cost of what is offered..

i cant speak for nvs, but i am pretty sure he could roll his designs with the above mentioned drivers for nominal increased cost...and nothing, i mean nothing could even come close in sound quality or spls..

(Message edited by clubmyke on October 19, 2006)
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 10:07 PM Reply   
yes, I have, the sound is projected much further out. I have not had anything set up on my boats tower. My tower is still a virgin. Don't let that fool you. You can hear me coming now. I want outside the boat fill sound too. What are you asking or thinking?
Old    all eyez on me (ponte_06_x2)      Join Date: Jan 2006       10-19-2006, 10:14 PM Reply   
yo david i was just kidding. i think what your doing is cool. post picts when your done
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-19-2006, 10:40 PM Reply   
Thanks, it is all good. I should give some background on me. I was partner in a high end car audio shop here in Houston in the 1980's. We worked with Kicker, who was then just a fledgling company to produce some of the first crank em up vehicles. In 1977 I bought my first HLCD speakers- Klipsch La Scala's-- If I could fly them off my tower, I would-- there's a sight. My love of sound has been most of my life. At 45 now, I still have the bug. My boat is sporting 3600 watts- all installed by myself. Like I said-- it never ends if you have the bug. The tower has been a special issue for me because of the things I have built inside the boat. It is also the one area that is a giant spotlight and highly visible area. The guys at NVS, wet sounds and Skylon have some nice looking, kick ass, speakers. I admire what they have done to bring it to anyone with some $$. That is good. I could do like most everyone else, but.. I probably won't.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-19-2006, 11:05 PM Reply   
Wow,

This thread has blown up since last night.

I will try to catch up.

"why didn't I finish my project?" ... I did. I ran them for a full summer and had no intention to run anything else until I heard the Wetsounds 485s.

I did get some help with the design of my system from the eminence tech support guys. They have real audio engineers that are willing to help you with a design. My original design consisted of 4 Beta CXs and 4 HLCDs, Eminence recommended I swap out two to the Alpha's because their response curve helps to round out the system, plus they are lighter and cheaper. There is not much volume in those cans so speaker travel and therefore Bass is not really going to happen. The aluminum will ring like a bell so they also need some kind of dampening inside.

I don't know why people are so intimidated by crossover's. They are easy enough to build. Several crossover calculators are available online so figuring out those components is easy too. It just takes a little time to put them together. Keep it simple and build one crossover for each component, for that matter just build a crossover for the tweeter and run the 8's wide open (just use the amp's built in crossover for the bottom end).

Clubmyke,
Ring me up anytime after tomorrow afternoon, it's been a really busy week with the PV show in town, but it should be over tomorrow.

L-pad = band-aid... not really. Virtually all good HLCD based speakers feature some sort of attenuation circuit on the HLCD, the L-pad is the circuit of choice. Some don't but should.

Plan on a little trial and error, what sounds good to me might not sound good to you. What sounds good in my boat may not sound good in yours.

Break the rules... When I finally decided that I needed to let more power go through the horns I just cut the bridge resistor out of the L-pad while I was out on the lake one day. This does weird things to the impedence, crossover point, and phasing but it sounded better, the amp didn't overheat and the tweeter didn't blow up, so that's the way it remains today on my neighbor's X-star tower. Would I recommend using half and L-pad? No, I would say do it right if you have a choice. All speaker manufacturers cheat, they break the rules to maximize profits, our ears can't and don't hear the difference 99% of the time (except with skyln)

Just go for it, you can't build a tower system by typing questions on Wakeworld...
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-20-2006, 9:35 AM Reply   
Information is power. Using information is knowledge. Knowledge cuts down trail and error and shortens learning cycles. Old adage-- why reinvent the wheel. Improve it- YES. Learn from others. The information passed along here so far is all good. I am nearing a decision point and will post thoughts prior to actions.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-20-2006, 9:52 AM Reply   
very good point...

btw, another new 8" driver is the selenium...good specs, cheap price, and should fit (195mm)...

if you didnt want to spend big $$$$$, this one looks good for a 8"..
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-20-2006, 10:15 AM Reply   
clubmyke,
Great info on other available drivers. PHL could do well here in the US imo, nice design. I will go more mainstream for costs and availablity. Are you talking about the Selenium 8W4P ?
Old    Duane (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-20-2006, 11:39 AM Reply   
OK, lots of good discussion here. It's great to see not only the concept of Pro Audio/HLCD's taking hold for tower sytems but the "How To" and different ideas/approaches.
As those of you that have been on this board for over 3 years know, you know that I posted my first project as a DIY. This of course was after much study and trial and error like you guys are doing now.
I'm just going to leave a couple of thoughts with you in order to try and make things simpler for you. Reading the posts above I'd say that most of you have a handle on the drivers. Horn design is a study in itself. I'd only add that cost and quality go hand in hand here just like in most things. Just keep in mind where it is that you are going to be listening to them. You will quickly get to the point by which you can only Say "I have better speakers then that guy" but in reality, you can't hear the difference because of the environment. And I have to add here that tuning in your rider system while sitting on a trailer curbside is a big mistake!
Lastly, on the crossover. Mikeski is correct with having plenty of information available in order to design/build your own passive c/o. However, I also agree with his statement that infers that people have different ideas of what sounds good...in your application. So, the easiest way to address the crossover and attenuation of the compression driver is to use a separate amp (I think Mikeski also mentioned this). Building in "Control" is best IMO)I've done this myself and would highly recommend this approach over an L-Pad. The advantages are:
-no impedance issues
-variable electronic crossover
-Does not impart any phase issues
-built in variable attenuation (via sensitivity/gain).
So, in conclusion, don't subject yourselves to analysis paralysis, build something and learn by listening.
Good luck
(clubmyke, you owe me a follow up phone call)
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-20-2006, 12:53 PM Reply   
duanne~good to here your back

dave, that is the selenium model....they are a new model for them...I have no doubt they are loud, the real questtion is sound quality and power capability...its almost worth trying them @ $55 each.the comprable beymas run $110 to $150 each

(Message edited by clubmyke on October 20, 2006)

(Message edited by clubmyke on October 20, 2006)
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-20-2006, 5:36 PM Reply   
david,

before you pull the trigger, you might want consider the actual construction of the driver (just got thinking about it)....

a zinc or corrusive resistant finish would be preferable as well as uv resistant on the cone... the beyma 8g40 looks like to be the most weather resistant driver out besides the phl...
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-20-2006, 6:01 PM Reply   
trigger not pulled yet-- still in analysis paralysis
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-20-2006, 6:21 PM Reply   
lol !!!!

it is really easier to buy a existing system... i am a semi dyi'er and pretty good at audio but this is a really hard one... when you add everything up, the existing systems are a pretty good deal and they will hold their value..

i do have to admit i'm having fun modding my skylon references 4's but starting from the ground up appears to be a daunting task...

(Message edited by clubmyke on October 20, 2006)
Old    David Ericson (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-20-2006, 6:51 PM Reply   
maybe I should add this up:
4 cans and clamps $340
Aluminum flat bar for quick releases $25
4 Knobs and 4 studs for quick releases $18
Not choosing drivers or crossover yet and wondering how cans would sell on e-bay-- priceless



Seriously- I figured around $750

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