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Old    Tyler Jacobsen (delta_rider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-14-2006, 9:16 PM Reply   
i want to get a comp vest but i also know that they r not coast guard approved. So i was wondering if u could still ride with the vests at the delta and the coast guards wouldnt care or what ever, so i would like to hear some feed back.
thanks alot
Tyler
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-14-2006, 10:29 PM Reply   
you can ride what you want. Just depends if you want to have a chance to save you when you fall and get the air knocked out of you or to have people find your body later........You are gone to the world after a couple of feet under the water. Ask Mark Kenney....
Old     (midwesty)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-14-2006, 10:36 PM Reply   
ouch man, reality sucks!
Old    Spin2Win (spin2win)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-14-2006, 10:36 PM Reply   
Mark did not die from drowning....thats not even funny.. ride what you want you wont drown. I have never ridden a approved vest. RIP MARK
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       10-14-2006, 10:40 PM Reply   

quote:

By Rod Rinnert (deltahoosier) on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 10:29 pm:

you can ride what you want. Just depends if you want to have a chance to save you when you fall and get the air knocked out of you or to have people find your body later........You are gone to the world after a couple of feet under the water. Ask Mark Kenney....





rod, using mark kenney's death as an example was in poor taste in my opinion. mark died from some sort of allergic reaction to medication. he did not die from drowning.

(Message edited by dakid on October 14, 2006)
Old     (midwesty)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-14-2006, 11:12 PM Reply   
thats what i was thinkin

wish he was still around for sure
Old    Rich Dykmans (richd)      Join Date: Oct 2003       10-15-2006, 7:50 AM Reply   
The sheriff can write either your rider, your driver or both a ticket for using a non CG approved vest. They generally don't check everyone riding by but if the vest obviously looks like an outlaw style like the old O'neils then you're asking for trouble. More importantly if you get pulled over you'd better have a CG approved vest available for everyone in the boat. This is straight out of the sheriff's mouths who have parked at our island for years. One other word of advice if they have someone pulled over with the blue lights going you'd better idle by, I'm still surprised how many go bombing by while they sitting there and they get really PO'd at that.
Old    Nate Hudson (iamnathanhudson)      Join Date: Dec 2002       10-15-2006, 8:37 AM Reply   
yeah that was way NOT cool.....bad example. RIP Mark!
Old    Spin2Win (spin2win)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-15-2006, 8:46 AM Reply   
If you look where HARF is now and when he rode against Kenney in NATIONALS and kenney lost (politics) can we imagine how good he would be. THere would have never been a 1080 contest b/c he would be sticking them all day. im sure he is in the 1260 club up in heaven........END THREAD
Old    DRA            10-15-2006, 8:55 AM Reply   
Ride what you want is a statement I don't recomend. I say ride with a USCG vest. There is reasons why they inforce the USCG. It is easy for us to say we wont drown (Stupid comment IMO) and for us to go out and feel that we float fine and its a safe good vest for us. But how many have been in a situation that someone was knock out and floating or not floating. Comp vest are for a purpouse and that is under controled enents where there is plenty of safety measures in place to better your chance of safe rescue in case of unfortunate injury. Ask Shuan Murray about his thoughts now on a USCG vest.
Old    Peter Sharp (gobigorgohome)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-15-2006, 9:37 AM Reply   
Quote: Ride what you want is a statement I don't recomend.

I agree, the coast guard know a lot more about this stuff than most, so if they say an approved vest is necessary then so be it. Oh, spin2win, I noticed in your profile...

'I hate falling on raleys..give me a approved vest please!'
Old    nick_v            10-15-2006, 9:46 AM Reply   
have any of you heard Cordell, ride with a vest........
Old    Josh B (joshugan)      Join Date: Apr 2005       10-15-2006, 3:23 PM Reply   
I'm pretty sure Rod was thinking of Cordell. But even in Cordell's case the problem was not wearing a vest.
Old    Josh T (intotheflats)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-15-2006, 4:19 PM Reply   
even a CGA vest isn't gonna flip you over if you get knocked out face down, however it is gonna help you float more, but if your nonCGA vest floats you I think it is fine. just my $.02
Old    Spin2Win (spin2win)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-15-2006, 9:18 PM Reply   
Peter thats a inside joke. its obvious you are not on the inside.........
Old    Spin2Win (spin2win)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-15-2006, 9:24 PM Reply   
only in wakeboarding are we such pusses. I have surfed my whole life and have come way close to drowning more so than wakeboarding. WHat if all surfers had to wear a USCG vest???? you dont hear of many drownings in surfing...If you know your limits you SHOULD WEAR WHAT YOU WANT!!!! if you suk at riding wera a BIG ASS VEST....or if you are learing a hard trick through one on. just know your limits.
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-15-2006, 10:13 PM Reply   
I agree with Spin on this; the water is something to be respected and enjoyed. People who: ski out of bounds, or paddle into big surf without any respect or knowledge on the issue are asking for trouble. Wakeboarding (watersports in general for that matter) is no different. If somebody drowns because they were'nt wearing the proper safety items, that was their decision. With that said I am very empathetic towards people who have lost loved ones to water accidents. The only thing that I can suggest is that before you paddle in, hike out, or get in the water; have an understanding of the possible issues that may arise and how you plan on dealing with them.

I have personally been wearing a non-uscg vest for several years. I just rode my new cga vest this weekend and my riding did not suffer as far as I can tell. This was my first time riding with a CGA vest in at least several years. Just my opinion.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       10-16-2006, 9:12 AM Reply   

quote:

...ride what you want you wont drown. I have never ridden a approved vest.



That's the most irresponsible statement I've ever read. Just because you smoke cigarettes your entire life and don't get lung cancer does not mean that cigarettes are good for you.


quote:

If you know your limits you SHOULD WEAR WHAT YOU WANT!!!! if you suk at riding wera a BIG ASS VEST....or if you are learing a hard trick through one on. just know your limits.



This could be the second most irresponsible statement I've ever read. The only problem with this theory is that professional wakeboarder Corey Kraut died doing a 180. Dallas Friday shattered her femur doing a whirlybird that she can do in her sleep. Shaun Murray destroyed his knee jumping the wake. How hard the trick is does not necessarily equate to how hard the fall is.

Believe it or not, the Coast Guard does know a thing or two about how to keep bodies afloat. Unless you go under water and take several deep breaths to fully remove all the air out of your lungs and fill them with water, you have not properly determined whether or not your non-CGA vest will float you. This is the biggest misconception in wakeboarding and it's perpetuated by threads like these. JUST BECAUSE A VEST FLOATS YOU WHEN YOU'RE SITTING IN THE WATER, DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF ASSUMING IT WILL ALSO FLOAT YOU WHEN YOU'RE UNCONSCIOUS AND YOUR LUNGS ARE NOT ONLY DEPLETED OF AIR, BUT ARE FILLED WITH WATER.

Obviously, there are people out there that know all the facts and choose to risk riding without a vest anyway. I say more power to them. As long as they are fully informed and know what they are getting into. My problem is when people spread misinformation about non-CGA vests (see above posts) and then others take that bad information and make bad decisions with it. They end up taking risks without being properly informed and that can sometimes end up with bad results.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       10-16-2006, 9:16 AM Reply   
Tyler, in answer to your question. It's illegal to wear a non-CGA vest in California and they can ticket you and/or your driver. The odds of them pulling you over for just that violation are between slim and none. The odds of you not finding a CGA vest with which you're comfortable are about the same.
Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-16-2006, 10:58 AM Reply   
It is a legal requirement to use a CG approved vest for any sort of water ski activity, which includes wakeboarding. The exception is if you are participating in an organized competitive event.

We ride in the delta all the time with non approved vests. I have never been stopped and checked.

I have been boarded and checked a few times, and have always been able to produce enough legal PFDs and have never been hassled about the non approved vests that were strewn about.

I am sure a lot is going to depend on your actions and why the sherrif decided to pay attention to you. If he sees you doing something stupid, like your rider spraying another boat, then he might decide to pull you over and find something to write you up on, and a non approved ski vest would be an easy target for him.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-16-2006, 11:49 AM Reply   
I meant Cory Kraut and I was not making fun or light of anyones demise. I thought Kraut slipped under and could not be found due to not having a vest on? You should point to real life examples of someone if they did something that contributed to them getting hurt or killed. If you don't then their death is absolutely for nothing. A non approved vest on you having air in your lungs for extra floatation. You get the air knocked out of you and you can go under.
Old    Craig (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-16-2006, 12:22 PM Reply   
Just running some numbers here...

(I am not a doctor, or an expert by any means. Use at own risk)

The average adult lung has a volume of 5-6 liters. (let's say 5.5 for calculations)

A liter of air should provide ~2.20 pounds of flotation.

If you consume 5.5L of water into your lungs then you've lost 12.1 pounds of buoyancy. Find a rock that weighs about 12.5 pounds, try, with out swimming to hold it up with your non-uscg vest on. I'll bet you'll find you sink. (added the extra .4 pounds to compensate for the boyancy of the rock -- yes, rocks have boyancy)

Adult USCG vest provide between 15.5 and 22 pounds of flotation. Plenty to float you and your empty lungs.

Sources:
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/LaurenCalabrese.shtml

http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsection1_4_2_0_7.html

http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/equ_pfd.htm
Old    Chris Weber (cweb)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-16-2006, 12:34 PM Reply   
One thing to consider here also, is that a USCG approved jacket is actually designed to float you on your back with your head out of the water if you are knocked out. (try to just float, without swimming with your face down, and it should flip you over on your back.) HOWEVER, with a board on, i dont think ANY lifejacket could flip youover if you were floating on your stomach and knocked out. This is why no matter what lifejacket someone is wearing, you should always be very observant of the people riding, and get back to them quickly at all times(w/out powerturns!!) I dont wear a USCG approved jacket b/c i feel that SOME(not all) of its main purpose doesnt really apply to someone strapped into a board, and, I have very good spotters with me at all time. Ultimately its your choice, and your consequences if something goes wrong. Also, my non-approved lifejacket is one of the examples with quite a bit of flotation..It think the MAIN reason that it isnt approved is becasue it doesnt have the strap that goes all the way around your torso. (Helium SWAT vest)
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-16-2006, 12:40 PM Reply   
A USCG vest DOES NOT try and flip you from your face to your back. That is something like a typeIII vest that you see used with little kids. The purpose of the USCG vest is to keep you from going under and not found again. Basically chance for rescue.
Old    Chris Weber (cweb)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-16-2006, 12:43 PM Reply   
^^^^^can someone else back this up??? This is not my understanding. Most USCG are actually slightly thicker in the front, which is how it will flip you over on your back. (the side with the least flotation would go underwater.) I could be wrong, just looking for a second opinion....
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       10-16-2006, 1:06 PM Reply   
Chris, that is incorrect. There are USCGA vests that are designed to turn you over and float you on your back, but the type III vests used for wakeboarding are not this type of vest. They will not hold the face of an unconscious wearer clear of the water.

Also, if you are counting on your board to provide you with flotation, I hope you have your toes bolted to the board because (and I don't want to start a panic here) sometimes your board comes off when you crash.

This is the exact type of misinformation that makes this issue such a controversial one and can end up hurting or killing people. Please, educate yourselves on this topic fully before strapping yourself into a non-approved vest!!
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-16-2006, 1:06 PM Reply   
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/mse4/pfdseldata.htm#PFD_SELECTION


Type III - Flotation Aid
Inherently Buoyant for Recreational Boats



A Flotation Aid (Type III PFD)
Intended Uses
General boating or the specialized activity that is marked on the device
Good for calm, inland waters, or where there is a good chance for fast rescue
Advantages
Designed to provide a stable face-up position in calm water for a wearer
Designed so that wearing it will complement your boating activities
A wide variety of designs for specialized boating activities
Disadvantages
Wearer may have to tilt head back to avoid going face-down

Will not hold the face of an unconscious wearer clear of the water
In rough water, a wearer's face may often be covered by waves
Not for extended survival in rough water

A Near Shore Buoyant Vest (Type II PFD)
Intended Uses
General boating activities
Good for calm, inland waters, or where there is a good chance for fast rescue.
Advantages
More comfortable to wear than a Type I PFD
Keeps most unconscious wearers face-up in water
Sizes: Infant, child-small, child-medium, and adult
Compromise between Type I PFD performance and wearer comfort
Disadvantages
May be uncomfortable after wearing for extended periods
Will not turn as many people face-up as a Type I PFD will
In rough water, a wearer's face may often be covered by waves
Not for extended survival in rough water

A SOLAS Lifejacket (Type I PFD)
Intended Uses
Best for all waters; open ocean, rough seas, or remote water; where rescue may be slow coming
Abandon-ship lifejacket for commercial vessels on international voyages and other vessels operating offshore
Advantages
Best performing PFD of all types in both rough and calm waters.
Provides best chance of survival for unconscious wearer.
Best device for non-swimmers if they wear it.
Two sizes to fit most children and adults.
Disadvantages
Most bulky type of all
Uncomfortable to wear for extended periods out of the water
May not fit extremes of some sizes well (especially children

Type I - Offshore Lifejacket
for U.S. Domestic Services Commercial Vessels and Recreational Boats


An Offshore Lifejacket (Type I PFD)
Intended Uses
Best for all waters; open ocean, rough seas, or remote water; where rescue may be slow coming.
Abandon-ship lifejacket for commercial vessels and all vessels carrying passengers for hire.
Advantages
Best performing PFD of all types in both rough and calm waters.
Provides best chance of survival for unconscious wearer.
Reversible; can be put on inside out.
Two sizes to fit most children and adults
Best device for non-swimmers if they wear it.
Disadvantages
Bulky
May be too uncomfortable to wear for extended periods.
May not fit extremes of some sizes well (especially children).

(Message edited by deltahoosier on October 16, 2006)

(Message edited by deltahoosier on October 16, 2006)
Old    DRA            10-16-2006, 1:29 PM Reply   
Chris your statement is for the purpose of flotation correct. It should float you face up and keep your head above water. The variable is that no vest was ever designed to include you wearing a ski or wakeboard. When your floating unconscious your legs will fall below the water line and with the additional floatation in the front of the vest it will keep your head up and "should" be out of the water. Apparently it is obvious that with your feet floating in a board you are at the mercy of the way you landed in the water face up or down.

To make a long story short a Non USCG vest while it will keep you semi floating (Enough to be found hopefully) you take a unnecessary risk that in my opinion you should decide what is more important the cool look and small fraction of extra movement or a USCG approved vest giving you a much greater possibility that you will see your family and friends after the accident.

Oh and a note to all the Delta riders that think the sheriff will not pull you over think again. They have been told to LOOK for the Non USCG vest and have increased the fine again for all that are caught. And yes the driver does get a ticket also since in Cali you are the responsible party for what happens in and behind your boat.

(Message edited by sanger215guy on October 16, 2006)
Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-16-2006, 1:37 PM Reply   
Anyone who has ever been on a cruise ship would know what a type I jacket is. They are BIG, bulky, extremely uncomfortable but exactly what you would want if you had to abandon ship in the middle of an ocean. Something that would float you face up and high enough out of the water so that you didn't keep getting water in the face. You wouldn't want to engage in any activities in this vest, just hang around and wait to be rescued.

An example of the type II jacket is the cheap orange jackets that you probably have a bunch of to keep your boat legal. They have all the flotation in the front, hence they would have a tendency to turn an unconscious wearer. They are not very comfortable and you probably would not want to wear such a vest wakeboarding. There are versions that are reasonably unrestrictive to allow activities, such as white water rafting.

A type III vest is your basic ski vest. To be approved it must supply a minimum amount of floatation. If they fit right they can be comfortable and non restrictive. As the floatation is usually distributed they will not turn an unconscious wearer.
Old    Chris Weber (cweb)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-16-2006, 2:14 PM Reply   
OK, well it seems that I am wrong in my statement. "Designed to provide a stable face-up position in calm water for a wearer" This is what made me think that. Also, i stated, that i knew a life jacket would not turn you over if your board was still on, and, i NEVER stated that i am relying on my board for flotation, so i dont know where " Also, if you are counting on your board to provide you with flotation, I hope you have your toes bolted to the board because (and I don't want to start a panic here) sometimes your board comes off when you crash." that comment came from. Because i know just as well as the next guy that my board comes off (seems like alot ) Like i said earlier, the people i ride with are very good at spotting and getting back to me in a timely fashion, and Its my CHOICE to wear a non-approved life jacket.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       10-16-2006, 2:15 PM Reply   

quote:

It should float you face up and keep your head above water. The variable is that no vest was ever designed to include you wearing a ski or wakeboard. When your floating unconscious your legs will fall below the water line and with the additional floatation in the front of the vest it will keep your head up and "should" be out of the water.



DRA, again, that is incorrect. As I said in the above post and as is posted on the USCG website (see link above), there are USCGA vests that are designed to turn you over and float you on your back, but the type III vests used for wakeboarding are not this type of vest. They will not hold the face of an unconscious wearer clear of the water.
Old    Chris Weber (cweb)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-16-2006, 2:19 PM Reply   
David, Head and Face are 2 completely different things. (even though theyre kinda attached..lol) just an observation
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       10-16-2006, 3:05 PM Reply   
I don't want to get in a big online spat over this, but when you're talking about information this important with the thousands of people that are reading this, I feel it's extremely crucial that posters have their facts straight before posting. It has the potential to effect a lot of people.


quote:

I dont wear a USCG approved jacket b/c i feel that SOME(not all) of its main purpose doesnt really apply to someone strapped into a board



That's wear I got it.


quote:

Head and Face are 2 completely different things



Ok...
Old    Spin2Win (spin2win)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-16-2006, 7:33 PM Reply   
I agree it is crucial but if we are all in this pissing contest the head and face ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS....its ok to agree to disagree.
Old    DRA            10-17-2006, 6:55 AM Reply   
Spin,

I agree 100% and my post mentioning head above water was wrong and should have been consistent with keeping you floating on your back face up.
Old    Emily (wakeboardnchica)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-17-2006, 10:07 AM Reply   
oh for heaven sakes! Wear a coast guard approved vest. plain and simple

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