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Old    Brad24 (brad24)      Join Date: Jun 2006       09-18-2006, 11:55 AM Reply   
Which flip is easiest to learn as a first flip, the tantrum or the backroll? Or neither and theres an easier one maybe? Also, I can HS FS 360 pretty consistently (one wake) and i can do any kind of 180 (bs hs fs ts etc) w2w consistently as well as grabs and such - is it time for me to start working on inverts or what? Which should I try and learn first? I can get upside down with the tantrum but I'm kinda scared to cut real hard and hit it goin fast. . .
Old    Justin Thompson (tchs22)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-18-2006, 4:09 PM Reply   
i learned the backroll b4 the tantrum and it was a lot easier to learn backroll 4 me
Old    Patrick Conroy (wakeboarder2687)      Join Date: Aug 2004       09-18-2006, 4:38 PM Reply   
and for me, tantrum before backroll... if you're kinda scared to go hard at a tantrum, maybe give it some more time. I don't think you should try to learn something you feel you can't land, a lot of it is in your head. Try to visualize doing the trick, and riding away from it before trying it. As far as tantrum vs. backroll, do whatever you feel is more comfortable, or are more confident with at least. Good luck, let us know how it goes
Old    Brad24 (brad24)      Join Date: Jun 2006       09-18-2006, 8:48 PM Reply   
well i think the tantrum would be easier falls considering you always fall like paralell to the boat, u dont land like going forwards into the water but underrotated (if that made ANY sense) like in a backroll. I dont know, i dont feel like I could land it on my first time but I feel like if I tried it enough times I could get the flip down. Is it counterproductive to try it at like 15 mph though? Becuase then I could get comfortable with the rotation without getting hurt
Old    Brad24 (brad24)      Join Date: Jun 2006       09-18-2006, 8:48 PM Reply   
well i think the tantrum would be easier falls considering you always fall like parallel to the boat, u dont land like going forwards into the water but underrotated (if that made ANY sense) like in a backroll. I dont know, i dont feel like I could land it on my first time but I feel like if I tried it enough times I could get the flip down. Is it counterproductive to try it at like 15 mph though? Becuase then I could get comfortable with the rotation without getting hurt
Old    Pottsy (pottsy)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-18-2006, 9:03 PM Reply   
its personall preferance, whatever seems natural to you
Old    Brad24 (brad24)      Join Date: Jun 2006       09-19-2006, 7:06 AM Reply   
which one hurts less to fall? / less risk of getting hurt?
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       09-19-2006, 10:26 AM Reply   
IMO the backroll is easier and has a less chance of getting hurt. It will also teach you better fundamentals that are used on "most" tricks.
Old    Garret Schmidt (garret_s)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-19-2006, 10:27 AM Reply   
hmmm...I would say that they are both about the same. It is really personal preference. The backroll is probably a less complicated invert, and easier to just go and "do", but is probably a harder rotation to visualize. The tanrum is much easier to visualize (a straight backflip), but probably is a tad harder on your body, as most people launch too early when they are learning, which equates to a MEAN sprained ankle.

Myself, prefer rolls, but tantrums are much cooler looking. I am currently nursing a sprained ankle from one though, so pick your poison.
Old    Justin Thompson (tchs22)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-19-2006, 10:37 AM Reply   
ive learned that on the backroll most of the time you will over rotate than under i have under rotated like twice but the over rotations dont hurt because you usually land on your butt or back but it is a soft fall
Old    Brad24 (brad24)      Join Date: Jun 2006       09-19-2006, 7:02 PM Reply   
alright, i see where you're coming from. . . ha, the hardest part is working up the courage to flip (for me at least) - because if u dont really GO for it, its not worth wasting your time so I make sure that when I go in to flip, I'm committed to it. I think I'll try both going pretty slow next time I'm out just to see how the rotation feels. . . is this an alright idea? or do you think I should just start out fast and go for it?
Old    Patrick Conroy (wakeboarder2687)      Join Date: Aug 2004       09-19-2006, 7:22 PM Reply   
My opinion is that you should try to learn tricks at the speed you ride. Not everyone shares this opinion, some say slow down and take off some line for easier falls. I think falls are going to be just as bad going 20 vs 24, and probably more falls at 20 because its unnatural to me, but thats just my case. I don't neccesarily ride just to learn tricks too often. I'll usually go out, ride for a little bit and get some stuff in, then when I feel warmed up, I may try something new, see how it feels, if it feels good, I'll work on it, if not, leave it for another day and try something new. I may not be learning tricks as quickly as I could, but I'm certainly having the most fun, for me anyway.
In your case, you suggest 15 MPH. I would say 15 MPH is much too slow. You most likely will not be able to pull off a tantrum or backroll at that speed. The speed and pop you need off the wake for these tricks is going to be hard to do going much below your normal riding speed. Can I ask how fast you do go, what boat, line, etc? How did you decide on your speed? It should be a speed and line length combination you're comfortable with. If youre going 25 just to ride with say 85 ft, but are uncomfortable with that speed, slow it down and take line in. Thats a pretty drastic case, but it seems like some people feel they need more line "cuz thats how the pros do it". You should find a speed thats comfortable, and still keeps your board feeling responsive on the water, then adjust the line for your wake. Best of luck
Old    Justin Thompson (tchs22)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-19-2006, 7:38 PM Reply   
Patrick has the right idea with ridin at the same speed u usually ride at because if you try to rotate at a slower speed the it will feel different when u go at normal speed. Patrick pretty much nailed everything on the head. But my little bit on the tantrum u have to carry a lot of speed into the wake with the backroll u just need good pop off the wake and jump up and away thats what taught me!(Thanks Detention volume 1 and 2)
Old    Patrick Conroy (wakeboarder2687)      Join Date: Aug 2004       09-19-2006, 7:51 PM Reply   
Yeah, like JT says, you do need a lot of speed for the tantrum, so maybe a backroll might be easier for you, at least more comfortable. In my opinion, they come around much faster than a tnatrum, which could be a benefit for you. My advice is still try both with some confidence, and see what works best for you. One thing that may help you get the nerve up is land one of your bigger toeside tricks that sets you up regular again, then just try it from there without taking too much time to "prepare" your self for it. Reason for this is you'll be feeling good you landed whatever it may be, you'll be more confident going into a backroll or tantrum. Just give it a shot, you'll be closer than you think. And if you do land it, or come close, you better let us know. I can bet both me and JT will be almost as excited as you.
Old    Justin Thompson (tchs22)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-20-2006, 11:29 AM Reply   
Yea im tryin right now to get a job teaching younger kids the basics at a lake i ride at. So if you do come close you had betta let me and Patrick know!!! I can tell ya as awesome as it is to pull off atrick yourself its more exciting knowin someone else did it bc u helped them learn it.GOOD LUCK AND RIDE HARD
Old    Brad24 (brad24)      Join Date: Jun 2006       09-20-2006, 9:26 PM Reply   
oh, hey, i hv a good question! In which of these tricks do you flip faster? This trick is most likely going to be attempted (without a REAL hope of landing it :-P) behind a 14' boat - albeit a 14' boat with the best wake you will find 14' and under - as well, we tow off the poling platform so its like a pylong - so i hv a CHANCE of getting it but not much so I need to know which flip spins faster. I think someone said it was the backroll. . . Also, behind the 14' boat (Wahoo! I LOVE my boat! but for perfecting the trick, im gonna hv to actually try and LAND it behind my pops' 22 Angler with a 7' pylon - that thing throws a surprisingly GREAT wake!), i ride at probably 17-19 mph because it has the best wake at that speed.
Old    Justin Thompson (tchs22)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-22-2006, 8:25 AM Reply   
Wellllll it all depends on how fast you cut into the wake........If u cut really fast trying to do a tantrum it will flip u faster.......but backroll is all technique u dont need a lot of speed just stand tall and up and away at top of wake..............i mean I pulled a backroll behind a boat without a pylon or tower and if u haveAMAZING wake then you should def b able to pull of either so id say stick with backroll lots easier......I couldnt do a tantrum without tower cause i would never get board to water id always bail right in the middle of the trick cause i wasnt getin all the way around hope this helps some
Old    Kevin Hoye (wakebrdr38)      Join Date: Sep 2006       09-25-2006, 8:28 AM Reply   
i wish i could over rotate a backroll! i under rotate every time, i think i am letting the handle out though, anyone know anything about this dilema?
Old    Justin Thompson (tchs22)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-25-2006, 10:22 AM Reply   
Keep the handle in tight on approach and when you go into air if u let out the boat is gonna pull you towrds it(the boat) and your gonna under rotate
Old    Oliver Hartmann (livigno)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-30-2006, 4:40 PM Reply   
I'd go with the back roll. Learn, how to pop short approach wake to wake jumps really high this will improve your progressive edge). Do that by cutting in progressively and by standing very tall at the very top of the wake. Keep your handle in, while doing this. A heelside back roll works the same way. Just look over your lead shoulder after your take off. This will start the rotation. So cut out no more than 12 feet and flatten off. Wait for the boat to make your board drift back towards the wake. Start your cut slowly and build up some good line tension toward the wake. Never leave the edge you've built up before you take off. Make sure to pop hard and to stand tall at the very top of the wake. Keep the handle in. Keep your eyes open all the time. Do it like this and you will quickly learn them.
Old    Andy (wakeboarder843)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-19-2006, 11:39 PM Reply   
The backroll is a lot easier to learn for a first flip but you can mess your self up if you dont make it so trying tantrums would be a better flip as a first flip cause then you wont hurt yourself
Old    Ridin Dirty (duffy)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-24-2006, 7:15 AM Reply   
It really depends on the rider either one is easier. Just some learn one or the other first. I think the back-roll but others would say tantrum. They are both easy inverts. Tantrum you just have to be patient.
Old    Patrick Conroy (wakeboarder2687)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-24-2006, 7:33 PM Reply   
How's progress Brad?? Still able to ride? I'm done for the season here in NH
Old    chase butler (truebeachbum)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-08-2006, 4:07 PM Reply   
tantrum crashes dont hurt as bad
Old    Curt Bernstein (curtbernstein)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-07-2007, 12:18 AM Reply   
they're both real important tricks that will be the basis for all kinds of other inverts.. so just make sure that once you learn one, learn the other to progress before moving off in one direction and getting stuck with all tricks that are tantrum based ("trip flips") or with all tricks that are roll based... know wat i mean?
Old    Roddyrod (wakeslife)      Join Date: Jul 2005       02-09-2007, 1:59 PM Reply   
under rotating a backroll can hurt a bit. You just have to totally commit to the trick and you won't hurt yourself.

I took my fair share of backroll to nutslaps last season, and decided I need to get the rotation down on a tramp before I take it to the water in the spring.
Old    Chris Ridgway (ridgeridge)      Join Date: Feb 2007       02-14-2007, 9:40 PM Reply   
SKEET
Old    byron            02-25-2007, 8:28 PM Reply   
I am in the same position as Brad, I have been practicing tantrums and backrolls on tramp, and for me I think in the spring/summer I would do tantrum b4 backroll
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       02-26-2007, 7:09 AM Reply   
Tantrum is the more natural rotation, but it seems I see more broken legs and busted ACLs on tantrum variations than any other trick.

Backroll is kind of a blind carwheel motion so while not as natural a rotation, I dont see many get hurt trying htem or missing them.
Old    gimp990 (gimp990)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-19-2007, 6:21 PM Reply   
i did the tantrum first. the first time i tried the tantrum i came in fast and let go of the rope about 10 feet from the wake and trew it when i hit the wake. i ended up landing it and ridding away with no rope. it was alot easier than the back roll.
Old    dave (snow)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-19-2007, 8:23 PM Reply   
Ive been wakeboarding for almost two years now but havent thrown a tantrum or a backroll yet, going for that this upcoming season. But what I dont understand is how can someone break their leg doing a flip?
Old    gimp990 (gimp990)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-19-2007, 9:36 PM Reply   
i ride with a guy that has broken both ankles from slamming on landings. he compressed on them that hard. if you are talking about dallas friday i have done that same exact thing on a whirly except instead of breaking a leg i tore some ligaments in my ankle and broke my shane binding in half at the pro plate on that same fall.
Old    Oliver Hartmann (livigno)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-20-2007, 7:21 AM Reply   
@dave:
I'd say try to learn all four 180s first. Learn to do them high, with a progressive edge and solidly in control with different grabs. Also learn different grabs on your w2w and switch w2w jumps - heelside and toeside. This will be a good foundation to learn rotational and inverted tricks, because you've learned to edge properly and stay in control in the air. A trick like the backroll should come much easier with a solid foundation like this.

Special "backroll training" tips: practise progressive edge short approach (8 - 10 ft) heelside w2w - jumps. Your line tension has to increase until your take off. Pop'em really high by taking off by standing super tall at the top of the wake. Try to do them just w2w - more high up than wide. If you can do these and stay in balance, then you're ready for the back roll. Do the same thing, just look over your lead shoulder after take off trying to spot your landing. Just try it, it's as easy as it sounds. Just make sure you keep edging all the way through the wake and standing really tall at the top of the wake and you'll be fine.
Old    Steve (kingskrew)      Join Date: May 2004       03-20-2007, 8:22 PM Reply   
@Oliver,

When you say "all four 180s" do you mean all four frontside 180s (switch and reg) or do you mean all four reg 180s (frontside and backside)? There's really 8 180s:
HSFS
HSBS
TSFS
TSBS
all x2 (switch)

There are many tricks that I would tell someone to learn before learing some of these 180s (for example the TSBS 180 is a very technical and difficult trick). Backrolls, tantrums, scarecrows, etc. are much easier.

-Steve
Old    Oliver Hartmann (livigno)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-24-2007, 6:31 AM Reply   
I know. Of course I mean the four frontside 180s: TS 180, HS 180, TS Half Cab and HS Half Cab. These are the four basic 180s, in my opinion. If you can do them all properly, it will be a great advantage.

Once you learn a backroll, for example, it will be easy steps to also learn R2R and Half Cab rolls. If you pick up BS180s along the way, well, that's great! What I want to point out is that it is probably easier to learn the four FS 180s first in order to improve on your edging, balance in the air and landing before attempting any inverts. It will be a good basic foundation to build from.

Well, I learned Tantrums before my W2W HS FS 180, but didn't really progress before I learned the four FS 180s. Plus, they will add variety to your riding and it will not get boring trying to come closer to that back roll again and again without being able to do anything else. Always good if you can throw in a couple 180s (also w/different grabs) and grabbed airs, before you give your desired invert another try, which will probably result in another fall. And another and another and another - with not much else you can do. In other words, you get stuck trying the same thing all over and this could lead to boredom and finally frustration for you and your driver.

But wakeboarding is all about having fun and not stubborn practising. So dialing in your four FS 180s and the four straight W2W airs (HS, TS, switch HS, swith TS also with different grabs) will probably make you a more well rounded and satisfied rider who has more fun in the long run. Learning a couple inverts then will just put the cherry on the sundae. Whatever, it's just what I've experienced. You might think differently.

What I see a lot is, that many guys still in the beginner stadium try to learn one invert so they can show off, but they can't do much aside from their one and only "major" trick. That's pretty pathetic.
Old    Wakeman (wakeman7)      Join Date: Jan 2007       03-26-2007, 8:16 AM Reply   
I just started going for backrolls and on the first set trying them I can already get more than half way around. landing on your head does not hurt at all. but hesitating and landing on your side does hurt.
Old    Oliver Hartmann (livigno)      Join Date: Aug 2005       04-03-2007, 5:04 AM Reply   
Never try to literally "throw" a backroll. No hectic hucking business. Not at all. You will get hurt badly enough and never land em. Check out the instructions given earlier in this thread or watch the backroll section in The Book, which I really recommend. IMHO you don't need a tramp at all to learn this trick. Work on your approach, your cut. Also work on your take off. These are the key factors of the backroll. Anything else will fall into place. You'll be amazed when you'll land your first one, believe me. Rather short (around 12ft), but progressive cut, take off from top of the wake as line tension peaks, look over lead shoulder, keep eyes open, land, and ride away with a smile. Then learn'em switch!
Old    Brian Phillips (bdeisel)      Join Date: Mar 2007       04-03-2007, 9:15 PM Reply   
Yea ollie, thats how we roll on the HS Backroll. Concentrate on the pop. The book video breaks it down. Edge away from the boat in your jump. Keep the handle in, you can let it out on the way down to slow you down. Think about you approach to the backroll as a pendulum, increasing speed the closer you get to the wake, then edging thru and away from the boat. Look over your shoulder and KEEP your eyes open. This trick is all technique and no huck.
Old    Trevor (hawk7)      Join Date: Apr 2007       04-06-2007, 5:15 PM Reply   
Hey im right where you are with the flips, i can do all [8? 4? watever] 180's nd wut not. ive tried the backroll but havent made much progress. im gonna try the tantrum this season.

does rope length matter on certain tricks?
Old    Brandon Kee (trickyboarder08)      Join Date: Jul 2005       06-12-2007, 9:45 AM Reply   
I did the backroll first. It took a while and
I took some really hard falls, then i started learning the tantrums and I never fell hard on them. I don't know if thats because I was used to going upside down by then or what. But I would try the tantrum first, because the falls dont hurt as bad.
Old    Andrew (muddyboss)      Join Date: Oct 2003       06-12-2007, 6:38 PM Reply   
yeah if you want to know what it feels like to fall while your learning your backroll, do your highest hs wake jump and turn the board 45deg in the air and allow it to catch the edge on your landing., maybe close your eyes so you dont know when it will happen.
yummy,.

tantrums - falls are easy,
Old    kaleb kramer (krkx93)      Join Date: Jun 2007       06-14-2007, 6:01 PM Reply   
get on a trampoline and start flippin wich ever comes more natraly u should try first
Old    grant (grant_l_22)      Join Date: Jul 2007       07-09-2007, 7:36 AM Reply   
well when i started to do a back roll i was goin 22 and i was scared but after i tried it i wasent scared at all because i thought it dident hurt i fail in allot of ways and its not to bad it stings sum times but its not bad once u get it out of u u wont be scared to try it at all
Old    Oliver Hartmann (livigno)      Join Date: Aug 2005       07-10-2007, 7:17 AM Reply   
As long as you cut in progressively and also cut all the way through the wake and then pop off the very top of the wake by standing super tall, you won't hurt yourself. Bad falls are very often caused by not getting enough air to complete the trick. Take everything slow. You don't need a lot of speed for Backrolls - unlike Tantrums. This makes the Roll a little less scary than Tantrums, in my opinion. Whatever, you can hurt yourself on both. It's part of the game, unfortunately.
Old     (1boarder_kevin)      Join Date: Mar 2007       07-27-2007, 9:41 AM Reply   
I tried a backroll for years. I use to go out and try until my leg was bruised (literally) from under rotating. I didn't learn it until I got a extended pylon and ballast and I still don't like the rotation. I still squint 11 years later on every backroll I go into.

On the other hand, I learned the tantrum on my 5th try.

My point is that everyone is different. The tantrum is a standard back flip that I did my whole life off of diving boards and trampolines, so I was comfortable with that rotation.

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