Articles
   
       
       
Pics/Video
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WAKE WORLD HOME
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through August 27, 2006

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       07-31-2006, 10:15 AM Reply   
Ill give you all the short version and see what if any advice I can scoop....

Driving the boat on saturday night I lost power (top speed of 20ish) and oil pressure went down to about 20.

Opened the Direct Drive box and noticed a LOT of oil on the floor.

I immediatly killed the boat and signaled for a tow (thank you kind sport nautique).

Spent the better part of sunday cleaning up the oil from the floor just to get that out of the way, when I drained what little remained of the oil it had turned white as if water had gotten in the oil......mystified there.


I put 6 new quarts of oil in the boat and took it down to the launch to see if any of the hoses were leaking oil, or if it even ran.

The boat started right up, and no oil was visibly leaking......so I took it for a drive. The motor sounded like a go kart and had very little power....about five minutes into my run the oil pressure shot through the floor again. Killed the boat and coasted in.

Now, Im assuming that the block is not cracked because I couldnt see anything to that nature, but due to the loss of compression I assume that the pistons are scored, there is a prominent lifter knock, and it seems to be an over all lost cause right?

Anyone know where to find a left hand rotation 454 for a reasonable price?

I just bought this boat a month ago, and it was advertised to have 25 hours on a "rebuild" (which after talking to him further was really just a ring job).

The boat didnt give me a cough, a sputter, no problems whatsoever the whole time Ive had it.....which I thought was a score on a twenty year old boat.

I needed to vent as Im now boatless, and again, if anyone knows where to find a left hand rotation 454 for a reasonable price ANY advice or input is appreciated.

Im boatless for what seems sure to be the season.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-31-2006, 10:39 AM Reply   
well, we're in the same boat. pretty sure my tranny needs rebuild.

may be just a head gasket..?
Old    Jason Pribyl (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       07-31-2006, 10:44 AM Reply   
You didn't overheat and have the head gasket go? Only thing I can think of; the go cart sound and low power happens when the engine gets too hot and goes into limp mode. Happend on my MC when my impeller ate it's self. Lost an evening of boarding but it didn't damage the engine.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       07-31-2006, 10:47 AM Reply   
The temp never rose over 150, which is normal for this boat.
Old    Karl De Looff (boarditup)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-31-2006, 11:01 AM Reply   
Jasper and others re-build marine blocks and do a good job.

Lots of things could have gone wrong, but you need a tear-down, in my opinion. When this happened to me, it took a long block and about $2,500 for the entire swap.

If you have a auto motor rebuilder tackle it, the main difference in the long block is the cam and springs on the valves. Everything else is the same. If you need a carb, alt, starter, or distributor, those are different and the marine part must be used.

Mine blew when the tube connecting the oil pump to the block fell out and the cam seized.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       07-31-2006, 11:42 AM Reply   
Am I wrong to assume that having my motor rebuilt would far more dollars in labor then purchasing a rebuilt or remanufactured long block?

Jasper wants 8 g for a remanufactured motor, more than double everything else Ive seen with comparable warranty.
Old    CAR (super_air)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-31-2006, 12:23 PM Reply   
It doesn't have to overheat for the head gasket to blow. Sounds like that is what it is with the oil being milky. You can do a compression test right now to see if you are down in a cylinder and then go from there
Old    Karl De Looff (boarditup)      Join Date: Jan 2004       07-31-2006, 1:12 PM Reply   
It depends. If you have a decent rebuilder, they will tear down and you have choices. A long block is a complete rebuild with a warranty. It depends upon what is wrong - it is a choice with cost uncertainity. Here in West Michigan, rebuilds can be done quickly and there is a lot of competition - keeping prices low. Depends where you are.

I know of a 3-day rebuild done here in West Michigan.

Jasper only gives out MSRP over the phone, the installer may charge much less. Also, check out NAPA for long blocks (roller lifters for truck use) - about the same thing. It may drop the price dramatically.

I would recommend that an experienced mechanic look at it, maybe pull off a head to check. Could be as simple as a blown head gasket.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       07-31-2006, 1:46 PM Reply   
I think it may have been as simple as a head gasket, but the boat ran for at least 5 minutes at riding speed with full ballast without oil.

After changing the oil and taking the boat out for a spin, I lost all faith in a repair.

Im in WI, the installer for Jasper (mastercraft dealer) quoted 8k for a motor, again, Ive found some on online for around 2k

I am going to run a compression check this weekend, but I really dont want to spend the bulk of whats left of summer tearing down and going through an engine that will cost me far more to rebuild than to just buy.

All, and any further, advice is/has been appreciated.
Old    Jay (jaybird)      Join Date: May 2006       07-31-2006, 3:17 PM Reply   
My motor took a crap on me about a month ago the rebuilder here has a great reputation for building solid race motors for cars and boats. 2 week turn around time. took me 2 hours to pull the motor and I found lots of things I can do to the boat while the motor is out. Just shop around. There are lots of people on this fourm that are aginst doing a rebuild BUT.... under the right cercomestances (SP) I dont see why a rebuild is such a bad thing.. My race motor ran HARD REALLY HARD for ten to twelve years without a problem and it was a rebuild....
Just go for it!!! and you can hop it up while you have it out of the boat
JJ
Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       07-31-2006, 4:35 PM Reply   
Water in the oil, loud "popping" sound (go kart sounds), major loss of power.....

Sounds like a head gasket to me. Before I gave up on it I would run a compression test and if one or two cylinders showed very low compression I would just pop the head off on that side. If the head looked okay I would slap a new gasket on it and try to ride out the rest of the season.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       07-31-2006, 5:37 PM Reply   
Rod, think its still worth it if it ran without oil for 2-15 minutes? (no way of telling)
Old    Brad (spoonman)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-01-2006, 6:25 AM Reply   
Mike you said that the oil pressure went to 20psi, not zero this would not have damagedthe crank or bearings. You sit right on top of the motor you would have heard a bearing knock. What I am not understanding is where the oil came from (leak). do you have any more info on this?
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-01-2006, 9:57 AM Reply   
NONE.

I cant figure out where the oil came from either....but there was a LOT of it.

I would assume the pistons are scored as well?
Old    Brad (spoonman)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-01-2006, 10:07 AM Reply   
If the pistons did not come apart thehe should be no damage to the cylenders or the pistons. I do not want to sound like a broken record but a compression test is the way to go should take less than 1hr on a dd. Check the breather on the valve cover that is the only place I can think of the oil comming from that would not leak untill after it had run awhile. I still dont think you will need a whole motor. One more possibility... the previous overhaul could have been done improperly and we are just now seeing the results..... Let me run this buy some other techs at lunch and see if they have some input...
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-01-2006, 11:17 AM Reply   
Love to hear their input, and I will be doing a compression check this weekend.
Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-01-2006, 11:18 AM Reply   
It is common for a head gasket failure to open a passage between the water jacket and the oil galley (a low pressure area that connect the valve cover area with the lifters). Water from the cooling system starts flowing into the valve covers/lifters, then down into the oil pan. This over fills the oil pan until it comes out someplace, usually out the dipstick but along with the water leak is also a compression leak so the cylinder is blasting a lot of air through the system and oil will be blown out the breathers.

It is very little work to run the compression test. It isn't too hard to remove the cylinder head: the intake and exhaust manifolds need to come off, take the valve cover off, then remove the bolts and the head lifts off. On a direct drive boat it should take you a couple of hours max to get it torn down.

Once the head is off you can make the call of just putting it back together, complete rebuild or replace.

You mentioned that the boat has 25 hours on it since the last rebuild. It is possible that the head wasn't tightened down properly on the rebuild and the gasket finally let loose. If that is all that is wrong with it then it is simple and cheap.

If you get it apart and find that a valve broke off and a piston is broken and the head looks like someone beat on it with a hammer then you can feel more comfortable with replacing.

Be sure to spread a lot of drop clothes in the boat to protect the carpet and upholstery.
Old    Brad (spoonman)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-01-2006, 3:28 PM Reply   
Everyone seems stumped to the leaking oil problem. Rod makes an interesting point however you noted that there was very little oil in the engine when you drained it, if water got into the oil to the point that it came out the dipstick it should have been way over full. the level is low hence the clattering lifters and the drop in pressure. you need to find where this oil is comming from as I think it is key to discovering what happened.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-01-2006, 9:11 PM Reply   
If I only knew why the oil was on the OUTSIDE of the boat engine in the bilge, everything about a head gasket would make sense. The old oil was not blown out the breathers (those are the caps where oil goes in). I will run the comp check when this weekend and determine if the compression is low on one or two cyl. If comp is low on two side-by-side cylinders that is a sure thing for a bad head gasket, but a head gasket could be just leaking between one cyl and a cooling jacket passage, too.

why the lifter clatter if the head gasket is the problem? That is a symptom that I donít understand the reason forÖ. Other than the old oil got badly contaminated with water and caused the lifter to "stick".
Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-02-2006, 10:24 AM Reply   
Water doesn't have near the viscosity that oil does, so if water displaced the oil the oil pump wouldn't develop as much pressure and the lifters would not lift as well even with pressure.

In the first post Mike said that the engine puked out most of the oil, and what was left in the pan was milky white, which he drained. Sounds like water in the oil to me.

What I am not sure about is what happed the second time. Mike, you said that you replaced the oil, took the boat out again and after 5 minutes experienced a loss of oil pressure. Was this a repeat of the first time, where the oil was in the bilge and what was left in the pan was milky? Or did you lose oil pressure while you still had plenty of oil in the pan?
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-02-2006, 1:19 PM Reply   
I checked the oil after running, and it was still full, and not mud.

Which in turn led me to believe the motor is shot.

Keeping my fingers crossed.......


I wish I knew where the oil came from though, Im still puzzled.
Old    Stan Tanner (sbt3)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-02-2006, 2:42 PM Reply   
Mike,

If I were you I would take it to rich. I know you think he is a little wierd, but he is probably one of the best boat mechanics around our area.

It won't be too bad to pop of the heads. Chances are you are going to have to anyway. You can check the cylinders and gaskets to see whats up.

Stan
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-02-2006, 2:52 PM Reply   
Yea I can handle that......

Only problem with taking it to Craig is he wont get to it anytime soon.

In the event that the motor needs to get changed, I am taking it to Ft. Fremont......

Screw redline watersports, Ill be the first to finally say it publicly (finally). Quoted me 8k on just a replacement Jasper longblock which is double what it should be.

Not including labor.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-04-2006, 1:08 PM Reply   
Ran the compression test today, each cylinder twice.

Cyl 1: 125,128 2: 143, 147 3: 120, 125 4: 143, 145 5: 133, 140 6: 145, 142 7: 124, 125 8: 145, 147.

(all readings in lbs).

I realize these arent high, but,doesnt seem to indicate a bad head gasket?

Anyone want to take a stab?

Would badly contimated oil (with water) so screw up a valve lifter that it doesnt work correctly? Would running the engine long enough flush the valve lifter? I get an awful lot of valve lifter knock since the incident.

All help, as always, very apperciated.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-04-2006, 1:23 PM Reply   
Addendum...

I rested numbers one and three and now got 140 on number one (after turning it over a bit) but #3 still stayed at 120.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-06-2006, 7:15 AM Reply   
and still cant figure out how the water would have gotten in the oil in the first place.

i think my next step is to put fresh oil in again, and let it run for an hour or so to see if it might clean up whatever crap is in it.
Old    K.B.C.            08-06-2006, 11:09 AM Reply   
bummer Mike, sorry to hear. sounds like you were enjoying it too. good luck with everything.
Old    Scott R McKechnie (tarkus70)      Join Date: Jan 2006       08-06-2006, 5:28 PM Reply   
I have been installing Jasper motors and transmissions for about 5 years. I looked in their book to ck price. It is in fact 8k without labor. 3year warranty if not used in salt water. The problem with water in the oil is it can wreck the main and rod bearings 19 out of 20 time's. I don't mean to be all doom and gloom but this is just my $0.02. Good luck I feel your pain I went through this about 10 years ago.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-06-2006, 7:40 PM Reply   
Scott, thanks.

I spoke to soon on the shop and they probably deserve my apologies but Ive been rubbed the wrong way a lot by them lately.

8k is hard to justify when other manufacturs have similar warranty (ok only 2 years) for less than half the price.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-07-2006, 10:25 AM Reply   
Im hearing crickets here.....all I can think to do is go let the motor run for an hour and see if it cleans up the valve and gets rid of the clatter.
Old    Brad (spoonman)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-07-2006, 11:15 AM Reply   
that sounds like a good idea mike. Your compression numbers would not indicate a catastrophic(sp?) failure , but the water had to get in some how. I have run into some big block fords that would warp up the corner of the intake when overheated letting water into the valley only to reseal when cooled off. may be this could be the case... headgaskets can also fail and still have normal compression (coolant port blows to oil return hole) although this is not common. All this being said we still need to find the root cause of the problem. Let it run (idle) note oil pressure, engine temp, noises, more water in oil,and how smooth does it run.
Old    Thad (tazbike)      Join Date: Nov 2003       08-07-2006, 12:01 PM Reply   
I'd also add some Lucas Fuel Treatement ~$8, I've seen motors with similiar problems be cleared up by this product. As for the white oil, how long ago was the oil previously changed? A friend bought a boat that hadn't been used in a couple of years, he started it and ran it so we could change the oil, and it was white! Worried we ran it down but there wasn't a problem it had just seperated and absorbed some mosture. Just some thoughts
Old    Jason Pribyl (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-07-2006, 12:23 PM Reply   
Mike,
I don't know if you feel like driving across the state, but the MC dealer here does rebuilds in the $3-4000 range. If you did decide to truck it over here, I would give you a pull or two.
Old    Midwestwakeboarder.com (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-07-2006, 12:28 PM Reply   
Thanks, Jason, we should ride sometime anyways.....Ive been seeing your name on here related to WI for about 4 years now.

Im hosting a getogether at my lake house in Septmeber if you could make it down (check www.midwestwakeboarder.com ) for details.

My fingers are still crossed on the boat.
Old    screaminbch            08-08-2006, 8:59 AM Reply   
In case anyone is interested..I'll be selling a Malibu Monsoon Engine 320HP EFI on eBay in the near future. Not sure what the reserve will be. Have to research that. An accident on I75 in Kentucky left my poor boat skidding across the highway on her hull. The boat is totalled but the engine has been started up and purrs like a kitty.
It has 550 hours and suffered no damage. It's drop-in ready. So keep your eyes on ebay if there's interest. Also, I'm looking for a Response LX in the 1999-2002 range. I'm in Ohio.

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:13 PM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2012 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us