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Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-26-2006, 12:34 AM Reply   
The thread that I was following on the supra ballast manifold got archived but I wanted to continue the discussion. I have ordered another rule 2000 and was going to put it inline like some other people have done:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/344997.html?1153432866


Since it hasn't arrived yet I was going to see if anyone t'd off the thru hull, did some rewiring and ran one pump to the rears and one dedicated to the front. I've upgraded to the pro-x 750s in the back and the 1200 in front. Since my mornings are tight I don't like wasting time (stupid work :-)

Depending on feedback I'll be posting pics of the install and what times I'm getting.
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       07-26-2006, 7:33 AM Reply   
if you put the rule 2000 pump inline woudln't that do the same thing as just driving while filling? All your trying ot do is open up the restrictive valve (?)
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-26-2006, 8:51 AM Reply   
I'm still waiting for a pic from Muji; I hope that he posts one. I am wanting to add another pump, because I don't have to drive anywhere once I drop the boat in the water, and faster is always better anyway.

I also put the 750's in the back. How easily does the 1200 fit in the front?
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       07-26-2006, 9:09 AM Reply   
the 1200 fits easiily in there , but doesn't fill all the way simialr to the 750's in the rear. That was my exp. when I test fit. If you do try and fill it all the way your seat will pop up pretty bad.
Old    Manzo (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       07-26-2006, 10:16 AM Reply   
I have a XLV and I just did what you are talking about...

T'd of the through hull to a ballast puppy for the two rear 750's and left the rule to handle the front bag.

Not sure about your boat but be careful, once I put the t in I only had about 1/4" to get the rule threaded. Works great
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-26-2006, 12:48 PM Reply   
It does fill alot faster on plane but since the 750's are too big for the compartment I usually have to move them around a bit as they fill.

As for the 1200 - Adam was right on with his description. I got a good deal on it and didn't want to pay for a custom sac after my original one ripped. Filling it w/ the internal pump is over 15 minutes so I usually put a tsunami on the front to help out.

Manzo- did you rewire the switches and valves to control the pumps separately? Any tricks to doing that?
Old    Manzo (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       07-26-2006, 12:52 PM Reply   
I did not have the Gravity III in my XLV. I wish I had gotten it but I got a deal on the boat since it was already on the lot.

I just added new valves and switches for my new bags...
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-26-2006, 11:21 PM Reply   
The pump just arrived today but I won't get time to tackle it till this weekend.

Does anyone know if these rule 2000's wear out or slow down? I pulled the original the other day and everything looks good so I put it back on. I guess compared to the stock bags these new ones are just going to take awhile.
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-27-2006, 1:24 PM Reply   
Make sure to post some pics of the install, as I would like to do the same thing.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-31-2006, 10:45 PM Reply   
bbr - I had a prop mishap so I was more focused on that than the ballast pump upgrade. Always something it seems.

There are so many scenarios that I was hoping for a little more input. Anyway here are my test plans:

Boat stationary other than priming if needed to get consistent times.

1) Put the pumps inline and check fill times

2) Toss the new rule overboard and pump directly into the front sac w/o the restriction of the sprinkler valves. Letting the existing pump fill only the rear bags to simulate separating the manifold.

If there are no major differences I'll just go inline. I'm also going to assume that the restriction from the valves will equal the head from pumping over the side of the boat (probably way off but whatever) Otherwise I'm going to separate the front bag from the existing manifold, T into the thru hull to directly attach the new pump, and rewire the existing switch to handle the new situation.

I'll take lots of pics regardless of which way I go. You'll just have to hang in there cause I don't know when I'll get the water time to do all the testing.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-02-2006, 11:37 PM Reply   
Back again guys - I got out tonight and did more testing of the new prop than the actual ballast stuff. At least there was one high note and it wasn't the ballast.

I put the stock rule to the test and had it only fill the back 2 sacs. On the front sac I attached a quick connect and filled that with a tsunami. Results were less than impressive for the rule:

Back fill times: 13 min
Front fill time: 7 min 30 sec

Are everyone else's fill times this slow?

The back sacs take roughly the same amount of water as the front does. After putting together a spreadsheet to verify the above, checking on the flow rate of the sprinkler valves, and double checking a few flow calcs with a couple engineer buddies things aren't looking up.

The limiting factor is the 3/4" line running to the bags. Based on the fact that putting two pumps inline at 100% efficiency (not possible) would mean that all sacs could fill off of 2 rule 2000's in 13 minutes isn't going to work. I spent a good hour at Home Depot and found a 1" tee and misc connectors that will spin on to the thru hull. I am going to reduce the output to 3/4" for the rules and then dedicate one to the front and one to the rears. Line upgrades are already in the works as well.

bbr - my digital camera took a digger but the new one will be here Friday for the ensuing pics.

Yeah this is getting ridiculous but hey time is money and up here the priceless daylight is starting to shrink too fast.
Old    Wes Gardner (wesgardner)      Join Date: Oct 2003       08-03-2006, 7:18 AM Reply   
My fill times are about 3-5 minutes for the rear 700's and about 2 for the front 600's - my front sacs are so low they fill on their own if I let 'em

My system is driven by 4 Tsunamis (one for each sac) with large diameter pipe (1" pvc rigid for the long runs aft) and hose (1 1/4" pool vac hose), swing style check valves and as little restriction as possible
Old    Wes Gardner (wesgardner)      Join Date: Oct 2003       08-03-2006, 7:26 AM Reply   
Upload
Upload


You can see some of my plumbing nightmare...the upper pic shows some of the 1 1/4" pvc hose connecting pumps to plumbing runs, you can also see one of the check valves
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-04-2006, 9:35 AM Reply   
Ryan-- thanks for the update. It seems that we both will have to come up with a solution that will work. I took mine out the other day, and left the bags full for the next day of riding, cause I didn't want to wait for them to fill again. Maybe I'm a little weird, but I don't care, I want them full at the flick of the switch.

I'll head to the Depot myself this weekend and see what I can come up with. Keep me posted.
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-04-2006, 9:38 AM Reply   
Ryan-- are you going to bypass the manifold completely, are still use it?
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-04-2006, 2:42 PM Reply   
Wes - Thanks for the pics and fill times. If I can get my fill times down to 6 minutes that would rock. Was the 1 1/4 pool vac hose expensive?

BBR- After seeing this post on the supra site I'm going to take a look at the manifold and see if there is anything in there. My '03 doesn't have a water strainer so it's something I want to check.

http://supramoombariders.com/web/forums/32/ShowPost.aspx

I'll have everything apart this weekend and hope to find a way to get everything to play nice.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-04-2006, 5:23 PM Reply   
Took apart one of the valves to check for any debris. In the first pic you can see the small screen is darker and needs to be cleaned. Since these operate off of pressure that could be part of the problem.

Upload

The next pic is one of the valve body itself. This is probably the biggest restriction since it's not a true flow through. The water enters from the left and raises a rubber seal in order to exit through the center hole. Time to track down some new valves I think.
Upload
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-05-2006, 9:29 AM Reply   
Looks good Ryan, keep it up!!
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-05-2006, 8:00 PM Reply   
it's the valves that slow you down. You can pump gobs of water through a 3/4" line. The flow rate of the valves that you are referring to is at higher pressure than the pump can deliver. The other sucky thing about sprinkler valves is that they don't seal closed without pressure on them. Thats why the bags empty and/or and overfill while underway. They leak both ways. It kills me that Skiers Choice uses that crap and doesn't even use bilge rated hose on their manifold. No real watertight integrity means that you better close that hand valve before getting underway. I like Skiers Choice but their ballast system is third rate.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-05-2006, 10:29 PM Reply   
Psyclone - The stock setup with stock bags was fine when I had it. However now that I've upgraded I'm seeing alot of the limitations that you mentioned. I agree that the valves are the problem. Even after cleaning the one in the pics there wasn't a big difference. They are rated for up to 40gpm flow but that's at 150 psi - there is no way the rule 2k can get close to that.

Is there a replacement valve that doesn't leak and offers a full flow through? Although I want max flow I don't want to go to a manual valve and I want to be able to control each of the 3 sacs individually. It sounds like even the flow-rite valves may leak a little bit?

I've got 2 rule 2000s, and 2 tsunamis sitting on my bench. If I don't find a valve it looks like I'm going to be going to a system similar to wes's with 2 tsunamis for the back and the rule for the front. Anyone want to buy a NIB rule 2000 :-)
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-05-2006, 10:52 PM Reply   
Psyclone- I see you have an epic. What do they use for a ballast system?
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-06-2006, 11:41 AM Reply   
Back in 99, they used Jabsco pumps with a low flow indicating buzzer to tell you when the sack was full. They then changed to Rule pumps and ditched the flow alarm. They used Asco solenoid valves in the last version of the ballast (01) which had tanks in the floor with LED indicators for fill level. The Asco valves are very cool but very expensive, 100$ea. They used 148 bilge rated waste hose throughout the system.

In my homebuilt system I use no solenoid valves, 1" hose and brass swing check valves. A 2000GPH Rule fill pump that fills the back sack and basically primes the front sack fill pump. 1100 Rule drain pumps. It fills and drains reliably with no sack jumping. I have a gate valve on the thru hull, which I close after filling. I'd like to replace that with an RV gate valve, but I'm selling the boat to get another Epic soon.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-08-2006, 12:16 AM Reply   
Well BBR I'm not sure how deep you want to go on your system but I haven't found a cheap fix to replace our valves. I trudged through a 14 page post on planetnatique (i know, i know) only to find out that asco valves work but no flow rate info.

Just for reference I'll post what I've found as hopefully someone won't have to do the same thing:

Flow-rite: https://www.flow-rite.com/store/marine/retail/marinestoreretail.html
These are stock on natiques and EVERYONE seems to have complaints on them. They are also cable actuated so no dice.

THMarine: http://thmarine.com/product.cfm?PRID=68
This is what all 'tique owners are replacing theirs with. Again manual so out.

Asco: http://tinyurl.com/oxy3y
The Catalog No. 8210G095 12/DC looks promising but I haven't been able to verify flow rate. This would run just under $100 a valve.

STCvalve: http://www.stcvalve.com/I-Solenoid-spec-2W-2S.htm
Again no flow info but I'll be calling them tomorrow.

Flowfactor: http://www.flowfactor.com/
They have the parkers starting at 130 and then the snap tight which are about 3 bills. IF you have no budget then I think the snap tite's would be the ticket if they are rated for marine service. Either way those are a bit too spendy for me anyway.

So I've got a little too much time on my hands, either that or I stay up too late :-) I'd really like this to be a retrofit fix that is cheap (under $200) and easy for everyone to do AND remains fully automatic. That leaves two options:

1) Deal with the semi-leaky stock valves, plumb in a tee for a second rule pump, separate the manifold, and have a dedicated rule 2000 for the front and one for the back. After cleaning my valve I did notice a difference and I think we could be around 7 minutes or less for fill times.

Approx Cost being $150
~110 for second rule 2000
~30 in plumbing parts(valve, tee, adaptors)
~10 misc shrink tube, solder, teflon tape, etc

2) Trash the stock manifold. Build a new one that can accommodate a tsunami for each rear and the rule 2000 for the front. Three pumps will be necessary to maintain individual bag fill capability as swing checks will be needed to prevent backflow. Install an rv type gate valve to close the system from any inflow. Based on Wes's times this would put us sub 5 minutes.

Approx Cost being $150
~75 in tsunamis (although if you have a fleet farm you can get them for $21 each)
~48 in brass swing checks
~23 pvc, adaptors, 1" brass ball valve off of thru hull

Since I have all the pumps and parts I'm open to suggestions. One of my rule 750s on the drain side took a digger tonight so I'll be working on that first and tallying replies. Well all two of them :-)
Old    will c (wakemaniac69)      Join Date: Nov 2004       08-15-2006, 1:08 PM Reply   
just a quick question, what type of valves do you guys run off the thru hull connection? Do you open and close the ball valve by hand every time you fill, or do you just leave it open when you are out riding? Does anyone use an automatic valve for these manifolds? If so, which one?
Old    Jamie (yooper)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-15-2006, 3:06 PM Reply   
Sounds like you want the fastest fill times and zero (or minimal) resistance. You need an RV waste valve that opens and closes the entire manifold.

Like this: http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?deptID=3&subOf=252,19&skunum=26178

You'll need the 1.5" adapter.

Check out my thread here:
http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=43884
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-15-2006, 6:13 PM Reply   
Yooper--I looked at the thread but the link for the system that you have from rival doesn't work.

Ryan-- I think that I'm gonna put a Tsunami to each of the rear bags and keep the Rule for the front. I was also planning on eliminating the manifold completely, more flow.
Old    Jamie (yooper)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-16-2006, 6:49 AM Reply   
Try this:

http://www.rivalindustries.com/Download%20brochure.htm
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-16-2006, 3:09 PM Reply   
wakemaniac - Right now BBR and I have sprinkler valves that are actuated by switches on the dash. When you hit the fill side current is applied to the individual valve allowing flow. When you turn it off it prevents most of the flow. The main problem with these is that they are very restrictive and leak a bit when off.

yooper - oddly enough I just ran across that link while looking through the archives. The pics in this one were really helpful:
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/198705.html?1100799866

You have a separate toggle for that waste gate valve - can you tell when it is fully open or fully closed? Also is it pretty quick?

BBR- That is the way I am going as well. We don't have quite as much room to work with as yooper and the switches by the dash are a mess - there is actually some kind of board they plug into. Once I understand more about the waste gate I'll try to integrate it with the individual pump switches.
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2006, 1:42 PM Reply   
Ryan-- we are going out tomorrow and I'm gonna do two things. First, I'm gonna time the fill with the solenoids. Then, I'm gonna remove the solenoids with straight PVC pipe, and time again. If their is a big difference between times, then I'll figure out a way to eliminate the manifold totally.

IF, the times aren't that for off, then I will add one other pump, separate the manifold (still using all three of them), and have the Rule 2000 for the front, and a Tsunami for the rear.

A buddy of mine uses pumps that are rated at 3400GPH, we might exchange the stock Rule for that to see what happens. I'll post again once I get some more info.
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2006, 1:43 PM Reply   
Wes-- what did you use for the connection to the Tsunami's? They have a odd size, and aren't easy to find.
Old    Wes Gardner (wesgardner)      Join Date: Oct 2003       08-22-2006, 1:55 PM Reply   
if you look at the pics - on the output side, I used 1 1/4" pvc hose, this fits nicely over the pump end and onto a piece of 1" pvc pipe, hose clamped...the input end is similar...1 1/4" pvc hose onto the pump and onto a piece of 1" pvc pipe that's glued into a reducing bushing on the manifold - here's an early pic...double hose clamp everything and you should be good...the Tsunamis BTW are 1 1/8" and you're right, not easy to deal with so this was my solution...the 1" pvc pipe closely matches the 1 1/8" pump inlet and outlet and doesn't provide much, if any, restriction...

Possibly a couple reasons my fill times are pretty quick are 1) I used those flapper style check valves that offer little resistance 2) very few 9i any 90 degree turns (mostly hose or 45 degree elbows) 3) large diameter (1 1/4" pool vac) hose

Good luck

Upload

(Message edited by wesgardner on August 22, 2006)
Old    Wes Gardner (wesgardner)      Join Date: Oct 2003       08-22-2006, 2:04 PM Reply   
Here's my switch panel for the system...


Upload
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2006, 5:46 PM Reply   
Wes-thanks for the pic and the info. You have quite a bit more room than me. I thought about doing the exact same thing you did, until I opened my compartment. I'm working on a few ideas now, I'll try to post once I get it all done. My pics are always too big to post, and everytime I reduce the size, it's still too big. Whatever. Thanks.
Old    Wes Gardner (wesgardner)      Join Date: Oct 2003       08-22-2006, 7:41 PM Reply   
Hey BBR,

Yup, one of the pleasures (fuel consumption ain't one of 'em when fully loaded) of having a nearly 25' wakeboat is a bit of space, albeit for the boat being as huge as it is, the manifold is still quite tight...I think if I had to design another, I might split it with some sort of "T" shape and do two pumps off each leg of the "T"...I think you can use Paint to resize pics???...I've got PS so it's not a problem...

Let us know what you come up with, e-mail or PM anytime with Q's...good luck
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-23-2006, 5:43 PM Reply   
Ok, so this morning I timed with the all the solenoids in place, and here are the times: Rears, 15min; 17 min to fill everything.

Then I switched out two of the solenoids for straight PVC, and just filled the rear, 8 min. So I removed the entire manifold and the water filter, and will try everything out again tomorrow. I will be adding another pump and use the Rule for the rear bags, and the Tsunami for the front. I should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-7 mins for everything. Looking good. I'll try to get some pics up, but I'm not too good at making them fit.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-24-2006, 3:21 PM Reply   
BBR-

Thanks for posting your fill times. It's good to know that we can cut the time in 1/2 by removing those valves.


Here's a quick way to fix your pics up (if using XP):
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/learnmore/tips/eschelman2.mspx
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       08-24-2006, 3:58 PM Reply   
BBR, are hose fill times sitting inthe water or moving? I know mine doens't take that long when I'm moving.

So the solenoids yoru talking about are the sprinkler valves? do you have a link?
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-24-2006, 8:32 PM Reply   
Ryan- I changed out the solenoids yesterday and put in straight pipe, this morning the times to fill all where 12 min, just using the Rule. I'm gonna tee off the intake and have the Rule fill the rear, and the Tsunami just for the front. I figure that if I need to drain out of one of the rear bags, I just drain it out. The rear bags fill at the same time. Once I add in the other pump we'll be looking great.

Adam-- the times are all just sitting. When I put my boat in the water, I only need to go about 20 feet to start riding, so I don't want to drive around just to fill.
The solenoids are the sprinkler valves. I removed those completely and made a set up out of 1" PVC and used the quick connections.
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-24-2006, 8:34 PM Reply   
I'm going out tomorrow, and I'll take some pics of my new make shift set up.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-24-2006, 9:49 PM Reply   
BBR - If you get a chance when you have everything disassembled could you snap a pic of the thru hull? Right now there is a 1" extension sticking up but I'm wondering if that will come off and I can use the 1 1/4" threads on the outside. Here's a snap of mine:
Upload

And here are my stock valves:
Upload
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-25-2006, 12:19 PM Reply   
Ok here we go. I only took one pick today, but I'll explain what I'm gonna do next. Ryan, I have the exact same thru hole- 1" that reduced to 3/4" at the pump.
Here it is. Straight PVC. Right now the rears fill just a little quicker than the front. So on the two pipes that are vertical, I'm going to put some valves the control the flow a bit; that is until I put in the other pump. Upload

I am waiting for my pump to get here. I ordered a Tsunami 800, but its backordered. I got that pump because it has 3/4" threading on it, so it will be a snap to plumb in. I don't know when I'll get it though.

Here's another pic to see the size of my wake. I'm 6' tall, and I ride at a GPS'd 24.2 MPH. Our lake is only about 5-6ft deep as well. Not too bad if you ask me. Upload

Ryan, thanks for the resizing link. Works flippin great.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-27-2006, 8:30 PM Reply   
For 6' that is a pretty sweet wake. We usually ride in 15'+ water but when we go into a bay that's around 6' I can see the wake drop by 1/2.

That setup looks pretty nice as well. Do you have to manually close the ball valve when you are done filling though? I went and looked at some swing checks and those are for sure the way to go. They'd be pretty easy to plumb into your system, just don't know if the sacs would continue to fill with the main valve open.
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-27-2006, 9:06 PM Reply   
Yeah I need to figure out a way to put in some check valves, cause I do have to close the ball valve, and it sucks. It fills A LOT quicker though. This week I'll be putting in the gate valves and finding some check valves too. Any ideas on where to get some?
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-27-2006, 9:19 PM Reply   
Ryan-- check out this link:http://www.specialtymfg.com/ball_valves_brass/835_ball_valve/default.asp With this valve you could easily add the extra pumps that you need. I think I might be ordering one. Put that on the inlet, three pumps, some check valves and your good to go.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-27-2006, 9:53 PM Reply   
The only gate valve that I've seen used on this forum is the rv waste gate that Wes used. That thing is huge though and I haven't figured out how to incorporate that yet. There are those other ones that I listed but they are $$$$.

You can get the swing checks at the depot and you could plumb them right into your existing system. If you leave the valve open I assume the sacs continue to fill with all of the pressure.

On an off topic I read a couple of your old posts on the old "tantrum elbow". I tore mine up pretty good the other day on one so I might have plenty of time on my hands to work on this now. Did you do anything to get back on the water quicker? I don't want to stress it too much cause I can barely hold on to the handle w/o a decent amount of pain.

Ryan
Old    B Poser (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-27-2006, 10:07 PM Reply   
I don't really like the RV waste gate, like you said its huge, and its just another moving part that I would have to figure out. I'll check out Home Depot tomorrow and look for the check valves.

As far as the "jerk arm", as I call it, I have since put either a 5' section, or a 10' section of stretch rope in place of the take offs on my line. It helps a ton, and you don't even know that its there. Just make sure you get the 3/8" diameter, as the thicker ropes really stretch more than you probably want. I still get the "jerk arm" if I ride like 4-5 times a week. I'm getting off of a 5 day ride week, and its just now getting better. As far as I know there is nothing that you can do about it, except 4-5 Advil and about an hour of down time. I'll fill you in on the valve info. There is a place in town that should have the 4-5 way valve, the check valves, and everything else that I need. Might be a few bucks, but well worth it.
Old    Ryan (bull)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-27-2006, 10:37 PM Reply   
BBR - Thanks for all of the input and doing the actual implementation so far. Once I find the right parts things will come together eventually.

Thanks for the the poly-e suggestion as well.

Ride on-

bull

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