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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-02-2006, 7:59 AM Reply   
Hey folks, a tragic death in the state of Washington due to platform dragging (aka teak surfing). The full article is here:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/government/story/5497003p-4955816c.html

As many of you are aware, this sort of thing stirs emotions and the terminology "teak surfing" vs "platform dragging" causes a great deal of confusion among the general populous.

The American Wakesurf Association will address a letter and hopefully get a phone call through to the legislator that is considering writing a law to ban "platform dragging" in an effort to not confuse this dangerous activity with wakesurfing.

If any residents of the state of Washington hear of developments, I'd greatly appreciate being informed. If you would please post here, or send me an email directly, at:

jwalker@jwcpa.com

Thanks a bunch.

Jeff
Old    michale detillion (michale)      Join Date: May 2004       02-02-2006, 8:51 AM Reply   
As most of know it is now illegal to "teak surf" in California. I am sure other states will soon follow along. M.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-02-2006, 10:32 AM Reply   
Thankfully, the sponsors of this bill have adopted the language in the NASBLA model law, which struck all references to wakesurfing and the 20 ft rule. This bill is in a public hearing so the final wording could chnage, but it would seem that the Washington Legislature is doing the right thing. So for now, we are just watching carefully.

http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/2005-06/Pdf/Bills/Senate%20Bills/6364.pdf

Michale is right, I'm sure we'll see more and more states outlawing "teak surfing" and platform dragging, as it should be. We just need to be vigilant that we keep folks from outlawing wakesurfing inadvertantly or from an uninformed position.
Old    02xrider            02-02-2006, 10:58 AM Reply   
Playing devils advocate---do we really need laws to protect idiots from themselves??? I like survival of the fittest!! Leave the lawmakers to do other things...

I know I'm going to get flamed for this , but what the hey. I just think the government has gotten to far into our lives recently.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-02-2006, 3:32 PM Reply   
So T-bone do you have any kids?
Old    Blair (twitch)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-02-2006, 3:53 PM Reply   
Edward... i hate to say it but i agree with T-bone on this one... Darwinism has been around longer than the whole government protectionism bit... common sence is becoming more and more uncommon nowadays because the govenment is making these decisions for people...

if the stupid people killed themselfs off there would be far fewer stupid people for us to deal with... the sad part of that though is that some not stupid people could get caught up in the "crossfire"
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-02-2006, 3:59 PM Reply   
You didn't read the whole article, right?
Old    Blair (twitch)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-02-2006, 4:05 PM Reply   
im not responding to the article... im responding to your responce of Tbone on here... and the general assumption that with the comment "do you have any kids" that you dissagree with his statement of
Quote:
do we really need laws to protect idiots from themselves???
not trying to start an argument here but mearly to point out an opinion that i have held for many a year about stupid people... the government is making this world idiot proof and thus creating (or protecting) more idoits in the process
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-02-2006, 4:44 PM Reply   
In the article Ms. Jones makes two fatal mistakes 1) teak surfing and 2) not wearing a PDF. I suppose itís hard to body surf without a PDF. Darn few people die from drowning when wearing a PFD, I've never seen an incident where this was the case. So for not wearing a PDF maybe Ms. Jones could earn a Darwin or at least and honorable mention.

But the boat had six qualified life guards on board, none of which apparently had ever heard of the CO hazard that teak surfing presents. So it would seem that she died from ignorance, a lack of information. Senator Pan Roach is probably an articulate and intelligent person, she had never heard of teak surfing nor the related CO hazard.

Iíve heard of the dangers of CO for a fairly long time and have been aware of the CO related dangers of teak surfing also. Apparently the word isnít getting out and people are dieing, thatís a shame.

Ignorance can be fixed with education. In this case laws and law enforcement can help define the standard of education and responsibility. I donít want my kids to die from a lack of information, if T-bone has kids or if some day he has kids I think that he would feel the same way. By my read Mr. Jones is trying to turn his loss in to law and heís trying to help educate others so they may be spared, a very honorable response to very personal tragedy. Iíll get off my soap box now.
Old    Blair (twitch)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-02-2006, 6:43 PM Reply   
now im not arguing that ignorance cant be fixed by education it can... what i am arguing is taht common sence would say taht hanging onto the platform without a PFD is STUPID!!! if a person does not have the common sence to do such simple things htat me or you would do without even thinking then, i hate to say it but, it serves them right.

COmmon sence isnt common anymore and im sorry if i dont show sympathy for the stupid people... but i would really not rather have the government tell me how my life should be.

perfect example of this... in my summer job this summer if we were anywhere that was above 6ft off the ground we had to tie off with a saftey harness (government regulations) however the lanyards on the saftey harness' do not explode untill 6ft and then do not susspend a person untill 10ft... so tell me how me waearing a saftey harness will help me if i fall from 6 ft... all it does is limit my mobility and pose a tripping hazzard.

sorry but give me common sence over government regulations...
Old    slidr_ridr            02-02-2006, 7:37 PM Reply   
If I was going to write a letter accusing others of being stupid I would probably check my spelling so I didn't seem stoopud.
Old    02xrider            02-02-2006, 8:37 PM Reply   
Wow, I missed a lot today! The only thing I will say in response to this is there is nothing wrong with information, the more the better, but another law to protect the ignorant?!! A 22 year old working on her doctorate and 6 lifeguards were not aware of the dangers the propellor and the exhaust of a moving boat presented??!! HMMMM Here's your sign! As Blair said in support--Common sense over government regulation anyday--has no bearing on whether or not I have children!
Old    Blair (twitch)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-03-2006, 6:13 AM Reply   
Sorry David... i didnt know that my dyslexia was such a major problem for you... my point is still the same...

Old    Trash (trash)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-03-2006, 7:54 AM Reply   
I think what we need here is not government rules, but rather government licensing. Require all operators of a boat (regardless of age) to have a license. Then ensure that the course that must be taken to get a license includes all the safety things, like why teak surfing is bad and why wearing a PFD is good.

At the end, the boat operator is now responsible for his (and the people on the boat) actions. There is no law made that can have unwanted adverse affects (such as inadvertantly banning wakesurfing).

Laws do squat if no one knows about them. And that is exactly what's going to happen as land-lubbers buy boats and think of "Hey-Cool!" things to do that may end up killing someone. Mandatory courses and licensing force people to at least sit in on a taught session that shows all the bad things. Passing a test means that the important stuff sunk in enough for the person to pass it and get a license.

Trash
Old    Trash (trash)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-03-2006, 8:01 AM Reply   
As an extra thought, we have mandatory licensing here in Canada, and I am extremely disappointed in our government. I never took a course, but just walked up to the licensing board and "challanged" the test. The test was a joke to say the least. One question that sticks out in my head was :

"You pull your boat up to a gas pump on a dock. Do you:

a) Remove everyone from the boat (including yourself) while filling. Maintain a safe distance if not filling the boat yourself

b) Stay inside, close all the windows, and continue smoking

C) Attempt to start the engine while the boat is being filled.
"

Sheesh. People learn nothing from that.

DAMN YOU CANADA! It's getting harder to find places to wakeboard on my river without fear of getting run down by a jetski or runabout.....

Trash
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-03-2006, 8:33 AM Reply   
I can imagine that some of us are hoping they donít start legislating a guilt or empathy requirement! :-)

Without arguing liberal or conservative politics, I think that most folks agree that we have a government and that isnít likely to change anytime soon. Further, I think that grief is hard for folks, especially a parent. I couldnít even imagine how hard it would be for me to cope with the loss of my son, James.

As anyone who has ever been to a funeral knows, itís unheard of to speak ill of the dead. You never hear anyone standing before those in attendance and saying: ďYeah, she was a crack ho and stupid, good riddance to her sorry butt.Ē We always speak glowingly, even if itís a stretch.

We donít know the facts of this situation. It wouldnít surprise me that the young woman who died was intoxicated. There is some crazy statistic like 80% of boating related accidents and deaths have an alcohol component. Or it could be that she was just lulled into a false sense of security knowing there were 6 lifeguards on the boat.

My concern or point is that when a parent is faced with grief, that emotional energy will be channeled somewhere. Our legislatorís are paid to legislate, not inform and their careers would be cut pretty short if they started responding to a grieving parent: What did you expect, your kid was a moron! :-) Can you imagine? :-) The reality, in my opinion, is that this sort of event is ripe for OVER LEGISLATION. As a parent myself, I can see how easy it would be to over-react, to want to eliminate everything that was associated with the accident and to NOT accept that my child was mostly to blame for the consequences of his/her actions or that I, possibly, was an irresponsible parent and taught my child it was OK to engage in risky behaviors. I also think itís easy to find sympathetic legislators for this type of situation. What politician doesnít want to be on the front page ďsaving our childrenĒ? What politician will stand up and say: we donít need further laws, we need to let stupid people die at their own hands. :-)

I am a proponent for properly channeling the grief of a parent that has lost a child. I also think that we need to be aware that there have been a number of CO related deaths from platform dragging and bodysurfing behind a boat, some, school age children. So, something beyond ďstupidityĒ is involved. No doubt, ignorance, but that shouldnít be a death sentence, should it?

I think that Trash makes a great point; education and proper licensing would no doubt help eliminate all sorts of accidents. California has no specific boat operatorís licensing requirement, does anyone know if this is the norm, or do most states require some type of specific boat operatorís license?
Old    02xrider            02-03-2006, 9:32 AM Reply   
First of, much respect to you Jeff and what you are doing for the sport. I did not mean to sound like I was "speaking ill of the dead".

Education, education, but at some point people, kids and parents, have to take reponsibility for there own actions.

I participate in a sport that is what some say is very dangerous and illegal. I know as do the others, that if something goes wrong it was our fault. Not the company that built the bridge, not the city for allowing easy access to the bridge, etc.

For me it is a matter of what's next, I can no longer hop on my Harley and take a nice trip because it is dangerous to myself. C'mon when does the madness stop?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-03-2006, 10:13 AM Reply   
T-bone, thanks for the props. I don't disagree with your message. Personal responsibility is certainly lacking with many folks. I, too, would prefer self-regulation to government regulation any day, as do, I think, most folks posting. I think the only thing that we differ on is the human reaction that parents have to the death of their offspring. I honestly donít think that a ďnormalĒ parent will accept the death of their offspring with ďshe knew betterĒ. Personally, I believe the reaction tends to be a desire to correct the situation in some sense. Trying to make sense of the loss. My concern is that this reaction becomes too encompassing, as was the case with the original NASBLA model law that included a 20-foot rule.

Your point is well taken, more personal responsibility would cure quite a few ills in our society. Lacking that, I am of the opinion, the rest of us who take personal responsibility should watch for over zealous administration as it affects our hobbies and choices.

In the wind T-bone. :-)
Old    02xrider            02-05-2006, 11:11 PM Reply   
Right on Jeff! That is one of the few things we can still do in this country--have an opinion of our own and discuss those opinions with others. Every now and then we actually run into people that can see the other side of the issue. They may not necessarily agree but are willing to listen and take a look.

Happy Surfing
Old    Lionel (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       02-06-2006, 5:03 PM Reply   
Jeff, Oregon requires you to have a boater education card. No Washington or Idaho, I'm not sure about the other states.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-06-2006, 8:17 PM Reply   
For Ohio:

Boating Education Requirement
(ORC 1547.05)
No person born on or after January 1, 1982, shall operate a powercraft powered by more than 10 horsepower unless the operator has received a certificate for successful completion of either of the following:

A boating course approved by the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA);
A proficiency examination approved by the Ohio Division of Watercraft.

My entire family has taken this course and are certified.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       02-08-2006, 1:47 PM Reply   
Surfdad,

Thanks for alerting us to this.

The father is foolish enough to think that a life jacket wouldn't have mattered! The hour at the bottom of the lake sure didn't increase her chance of survival. This is almost always how it happens. BTW, most people don't fully sink unless their lungs are full of water. Go to the lake and make yourself relax with lungs both full of air and after exhaling. Most people are buoyant enough to even float after exhaling. I'm sure she sunk because she went unconscious and then filled her lungs with water and then sunk. Had she had a life jacket on, she may have rolled onto her back and not filled her lungs with water and not sunk, thus giving the trained lifeguards a chance to perform CPR and get her to emergency services.

I think that the warning stickers on new boats are helping a lot to educate people about this.

To play a little bit of devil's advocate here, I don't really care if they make a law against Teak surfing, as long as they are clear about the definition. I think there is a huge difference in the potential carbon monoxide exposure from being 2 feet away from the exhaust port (teak surfing), vs being at least 8-9 feet from the exhaust ports (wakesurfing). In terms of diffusion, this is huge, especially given that the wakesurfer's head is not protected from the wind like a teak surfer's.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-08-2006, 6:55 PM Reply   
I did a little test with my kids, both of whom have been around boats all their life. One a high school junior the other an eight grader, both fairly bright and taking accelerated classes in school, and both have taken state mandated safe boating classes. I described teak surfing to both and asked them what they thought about it. They could tell by my questions that something was up and so both said that teak surfing was probably dangerous. Neither came up with CO poisoning as the problem with teak surfing, but both know that CO is deadly. Both told me they wouldnít try teak surfing, but what if I didnít have this discussion with them first, what if their friends asked them if they wanted to give it a try?

I think that educating the boating public and putting laws in place that set the standard for safe practice is necessary. How many people do you think would come up with the right answer?
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       02-09-2006, 8:21 AM Reply   
I think that if the person who died didn't know of the dangers of teaksurfing, would she have known there was a law against it? (if there were one?)

Education is more important than legislation.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-09-2006, 9:10 AM Reply   
Laws set the minimum standard for what should taught. Many laws are impractical to enforce. I suspect that many times laws are used to lay responsibility after the fact.

For example, you know what a speed limit is, you know itís illegal to exceed the speed limit, you know that the incidence of accidents, injury, and death are directly related to speed, right? So, donít you speed a little once in a while (maybe more of us do it every day). How often do you get a ticket, you donít get a ticket every time right? If someone causes a speed related accident, who will be liable for the fall out of the accident, the speeder will.

I bet someone on this forum in LE could go on more about the effect and use of laws, I say laws set the standard not only for enforcement but for education.
Old    02xrider            02-09-2006, 9:20 AM Reply   
Sooo what I'm hearing is...you depend on the government for standards of education??!
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-09-2006, 3:03 PM Reply   
Where did you go to school?

Do you have a drivers license, if so where did you get it? Do you want drive on roads where anybody and everybody can drive without any training?

(Message edited by Bigshow on February 09, 2006)
Old    02xrider            02-09-2006, 4:06 PM Reply   
You totally miss the point. Just because someone is in possession of a license does not mean they are aware of the rules and regulations. Just like a blinking turn signal does not mean someone is going to turn. All that means is the blinker works and they passed a test one time however many years ago that was based on a minimum standard.

Just because you put a regulation on something or pass a law does not mean people are going to be aware of it.

Where I went to school has what bearing on this topic??

Oh, nevermind, I looked at your profile. It all makes sense now as to why you are such a staunch supporter of Government Mislegislature--you're from the midwest--land of the blind followers.

Sorry, I retract that statement, that would be a huge generalization. Sorry if i offended any other midwesters.

What I am getting at is the fact that education begins (or at least should) in the home and ends in the home. If you are depending on the government legislated school system for your childrens educational needs, I feel sorry for them.

Happy Days!!
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-09-2006, 7:29 PM Reply   
No I donít think Iím missing anything. The government sets minimum public standards, often on important issues involving safety. We can agree that a license or certificate is not a guarantee of qualification, but letís not make a call for perfection. If I ever need a surgeon I think Iíll go with one that has a license to practice medicine.

The state can (is obligated to) set standards for the ďgreater goodď by making laws. To gain public privileges, like driving you often are required to demonstrate competence, by perhaps taking a test, you might even study before taking the test. There may also be requirement for a course of study (education) and practical training.

As I stated above, in my state there is a boating education requirement. There is one paragraph in the course text addressing CO poisoning and that paragraph does not mention teak surfing. I presume the reason that teak surfing isnít included in the course text is that itís not illegal in Ohio. So the one mandated education opportunity doesnít address this hazard. T-bone, you claim to be the education proponent in this discussion, donít you think that the CO hazard that teak surfing presents should be included?

A habit of reading and continued education can be rewarding, however, if you donít happen across EPA, CDC, or other public vaults of information you may never learn of CO hazards resulting from teak surfing and maybe headed tragic end. You seem to applaud this result as a thinning of the heard.

Reading and education are important to our family; both kids have scored high enough on the SAT for college admission, even my eighth grader, thanks for your concern.
Old    Ed G (ed_g)      Join Date: Nov 2005       02-10-2006, 8:16 AM Reply   
Hey Ed,

Was that you that made the editorial in Waterski mag?

Ed G
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-10-2006, 8:58 AM Reply   
No,is that a recent issue? I'll have to take a look.
Old    Ed G (ed_g)      Join Date: Nov 2005       02-10-2006, 10:34 AM Reply   
Newest Issue.

Someone named Ed Sullivan wrote in to the Editor.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-10-2006, 3:45 PM Reply   
I checked on line, looks like the only place in town that sells that periodical is my Boat Dealer, no book stores carry it. Is the editorial available on line? I'm curious to see what my doppelganger had to say :-)
Old    00smizz            02-21-2006, 6:40 PM Reply   
Anybody who body surfs behind a boat knows u cant wear a pfd it doesnt work. The danger is in the carbon monoxide poisioning. I live in washington state and have not heard of any new laws prohibiting wake surfing on a board however.

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