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Old    Loren (helix_rider)      Join Date: Mar 2003       09-24-2005, 10:45 AM Reply   
Cruising yesterday, and everything was flowing. One of those days where everything goes right. Love em. Then, I cased the wake on a tantrum gone bad and 'POP....' As I landed, everything compressed and my left knee made an awful noise (I'm still amazed I heard it over the boat, the wind, the crash, etc.) I get out of my binding and can put weight on it no problem. It hurts, not fun to bend, but no pain when not doing something to it.

So after a rough night of sleep, this morning there is still no swelling, so I think that's good, but bending the leg hurts, and if I twist it even slightly 'duck' the pain shoots up and down my leg and makes me cry for mama.

Just looking for tips from you guys out there to ease (or worry) my mind until I go to the doc on Monday. I have torn an ACL in my other knee, and this is definitely different, I'm hoping its a break of a bone and not a tear of an MCL or something similarly nasty.
Old    wakeboardn4life            09-24-2005, 11:02 AM Reply   
could could have tore your acl mcl or pcl you should go get an MRI when i blew out my knee i had the same symptoms
Old    Mike O'Callaghan (greenpinky)      Join Date: Apr 2004       09-24-2005, 12:58 PM Reply   
I doubt it, Loren. I'm thinking there should definately be some swelling if your tore a ligament. Could have just torn some muscles in your knee, which isn't too bad at all. I did that this summer, and I thought for sure I had ligament damage. The doctor told me that I would have seen all kinds of swelling if I tore a ligament. The only thing that concerns me is the 'pop' you heard. I definately didn't hear a pop. Good luck, bro.

(Message edited by greenpinky on September 24, 2005)
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       09-24-2005, 1:07 PM Reply   
Hmmmm this is a weird one...When I ruptured my Pattela Tendon I hear the same thing POP and my kneecap came up my thigh so that was obvious but you had to have done something if you heard a distinct POP
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-24-2005, 1:44 PM Reply   
Loren - have you ever injured that knee before? Are you saying that there isn't any swelling at all?
Old    Tracktor (tracktor)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-24-2005, 2:02 PM Reply   
Sounds like a possible cartilage tear. I tore the inner cartilage and it got jambed in the joint. By the time I got in for surgery It no longer was swollen or hurt, but I couldn't come close to straightening my leg!............
Old    Loren (helix_rider)      Join Date: Mar 2003       09-24-2005, 3:41 PM Reply   
Thane,

This has been a trouble free knee for me, never hurt it more than an 'ouch' before. I stretched before riding for about 30 minutes while watching a video...thought I was being really careful. Guess accidents still happen regardless of preparation. My wife says she can see a little swelling, I'm still not sure. Regardless, after icing it for the past 5 hours, it feels better (duh). I'm still cautiously optimistic...and if not, well, at least the season was almost over

(Message edited by helix_rider on September 24, 2005)
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-24-2005, 4:59 PM Reply   
Loren - I can tell you about my experience. I hurt my knee in oct of '02, it swelled up and got really stiff. I went to the dr. and he said that it was just a sprain (he didn't do an MRI). I hurt my knee again about a month ago, initial pain was about a 6 on a scale of 1-10 but it went away fast, swelling was minimal, and I could move it and stand on it. Went to the doc (different one) he said that it seemed alright, but I got an MRI, and when I went back MRI showed torn ACL and a few small tears in the meniscus.

I've heard that if you get a clean tear of your ligament, then you won't have much swelling. Most of any swelling comes from damaging the meniscus or the tissues surrounding the ligament that is torn.
Old    chris_hargis            09-24-2005, 10:19 PM Reply   
I have had a knee injury for a year and a half now. Last week I heard my knee pop and got some pain while I was bowling (of all things). Well, I was already scheduled for surgery so I just mentioned it to the Dr before the surgery. WHen he did the surgery, he found tears in the MCL along with the meniscus. I never had any swelling with the last injury. I had an MRI before that pop which said I had a torn meniscus, but nothing on the MCL until after that. So it is possible to have a torn MCL without swelling.
Old    bummerkit (bummerkit)      Join Date: Apr 2003       09-25-2005, 8:22 AM Reply   
Go see a doctor. these stories and online diagnoses are awesome and all, but a blown knee is nothing to mess with.

If you heard a pop, its almost certain that you jacked up a ligament.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       09-25-2005, 10:15 AM Reply   
I heard my MCL pop when I tore it the first time. Does the inside of your knee hurt during the duck motions? If so thats your MCL for ya. Tore mine minorly, was skiing again shortly therafter, injured it again worse within a month and a half..., but all is well now
I would pray for an MCL over broken bones any day...
Old    John (Lakewood, WA) (johnbowen)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-25-2005, 10:32 AM Reply   
a little anatomy lesson is in order.

Muscle to bone is connected via tendons.
bone to bone is connected via ligaments.

You have no muscles in the knee. Muscles connect via tendons to your femur (thigh bone), tibia (larger lower calf bone), fibula (smaller calf bone) and patella (kneecap bone). You do have tendons that attach the muscles to those bones, but the knee itself have ligaments for muscles to muscle connection and menisci to serve as cushioning/lubrication between bones (femur and tibia).

You can easily have a tear of one of your ligaments without swelling, depending on how much damage was done to the surrounding tissue, and whether it was a quick/clean tear or a ripping tear. You can't judge whether it is a tear based on swelling. A physical exam with MRI are the only way to determine the damage. Almost everyone i know who had a knee injury with a significant torque/trauma indicated a pop with a torn ligaments. Mesicus don't pop. Ligaments and tendons do. If you tore a tendon or muscle you would have significantly diminished strength with pain, bruising and possibly swelling. If it was a complete tear of the muscle/tendon then the muscle would "roll up" like a window blind (seen it a bunch on achilles tendon and bicep tears).

Pop indicates to me a rupture (quick tear) with minimal surrounding tissue damage. You can't often straighten your knee or it will lock up with a meniscus tear because the chunk of meniscus hangs out between the bones and jams things up. Think of a chunk of rubber cut in half. the ligaments are like strong rubber bands. When they tear they often are hard to find.

My background is as a professional Firefighter/emergency medical technicians. I see sports/accident related lower extremity injuries about 20 times a month in the course of my profession. Knee injuries are the 2nd most common FF injury. I've had two (both times meniscus due to heavy loads and twisting tearing up the pad). My wife blew out her ACL playing soccer. I've had four MRI on my knee. In my station of 40 dudes we have fifteen guys with knee injuries, with over twenty surgical repairs.

(Message edited by johnbowen on September 25, 2005)
Old    Matt (pittsy)      Join Date: Apr 2004       09-25-2005, 1:37 PM Reply   
that happened to me earlier this summer...my knee didn't hurt when i put wieght on it but the pain was terrible when i tried to bend it or twist it..i just kept off it for a couple of days then it was back to normal..back boarding again in 3days..and no problems since..
Old    Mike O'Callaghan (greenpinky)      Join Date: Apr 2004       09-26-2005, 5:51 AM Reply   
Well, I also work with muscles/muscle injuries daily, so i'll chime in again.

John, when I said he may have torn some muscles in his knee, I was referring to the muscles surrounding the knee (peroneus longus, brevis and sartorius).

It is definately quite possible to partially tear one of these muscles at the knee. Like I said, I did it this summer. Sure it may not have been within the knee as John has described, but for general discussion, I didn't think we needed to get so precise.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-26-2005, 10:37 AM Reply   
Hey Loren, I'm kinda bummin right now and feeling you're pain. I've had a few years of trouble free riding. A few minor knee injuries, but no doctor visits, just ice an rest. 2 weeks ago I jacked up my right knee. No pop, but twisted and jammed it on a hard landing. It still has slight pain on the outside of the knee if I bend or twist wrong. No biggie, started riding again 3 days later. Then this past weekend I missed the pop on a TS 3 and cased the wake hard with my back to the boat. Sore knee got jolted a little, but nothing major. Bad thing was I beat my left knee up pretty badly. Didn't hurt as much initially as when I hurt my right knee, but the left one proceeded to swell badly and hurts more today then the other one ever did. Right now I don't have any intense pain from twisting, but the swelling prohibits me from straightening my knee or bending down. I'm hoping nothing major and the swelling will go down, but I'm not super optomistic. Oh, well. I guess I should count my blessings for making it this far without injury. Anyone ever get a lot of swelling from just meniscus damage? Also, Thane do you think your ligaments were torn before and just missed on the previous diagnosis? I've kinda done the doctor ligament tests pulling a pushing on my lower leg to check for any "looseness" but everything feels intact.

Anyway, good luck man. Let us know what the doc says. Seems knees are definitely the weak link.
Old    Loren (helix_rider)      Join Date: Mar 2003       09-27-2005, 10:46 AM Reply   
Man, everytime I look at the subject line I cringe...I head a pop?? What a hoser I am...

Anyway, got in to see my knee doc this morning, and thanks for all your good wishes. (I know I said quite a few prayers).

After x-rays and the 'does this hurt' tests, my doc is almost positive I have a torn MCL and no damage to the meniscus. He gave me a brace, and said it should heal in 4-6 weeks and I can go back to full activity.

This was the best news I could have possibly received IMO, and I'm very thankful. I can still snowboard this winter, and next spring I can charge it hard again trusting that everything is healed. Thanks again for the love, I really like the vibe this group puts out.

Peace
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       09-27-2005, 1:46 PM Reply   
any PT?
I am a strong advocate for PT, get that thing mobilized and strong!
Old    Mike O'Callaghan (greenpinky)      Join Date: Apr 2004       09-27-2005, 5:53 PM Reply   
Congrats Loren. That's good to hear you'll be as good as new before too long.

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