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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-23-2005, 6:34 AM Reply   
I have a Tige 23V and have made some mod's to it in the last few days. I drop the pitch of the prop from 17.5 to 16. Added Fresh Air Exhaust and put in place a custom Fat Sac from Fly High that theoretically holds 1,500 pounds of ballast. I'm going to be testing the Tsunami quick disconnect pumps today, along with the rest of the modifications and I'll report back in case anyone is thinking about boat mod's specific for wakesurfing.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-23-2005, 6:41 AM Reply   
I wanted to report on two things. The first being the custom sac I ordr from Fly High/Barefoot International. It came exactly to my specifications and slipped right in. The valve placement was as I asked and the seams all appear perfect. It's not as cheap as some of the other sac's on the market, but I've been disappointed when I've done the cheap route, having to patch them on the first day of use.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-23-2005, 6:50 AM Reply   
Fresah Air Exhaust installation. My 13 year old son and I installed this in about 3 hours. In my opinion it requires a little more effort than what I expected, but it wasn't hard by any means. The installed product looks clean and professionally installed. Two things I'd recommend for anyone installing this product, or any modification really. Read through the instructions and be clear on the step BEFORE actually installing the product. Also, I found it VERY helpful to lay out the pieces as I expected them to be installed on the boat. Once I had the visual, I almost didn't need the written instructions. Pretty much anyone can do it. I'll report back on how it works after the weekend.
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       09-23-2005, 4:53 PM Reply   
Jeff,
That fat sac is for the driver side right? Or maybe one for each side?
Old    walt            09-23-2005, 9:25 PM Reply   
Lets see a few pics.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-23-2005, 9:49 PM Reply   
Dennis, Dennis, Dennis! Now do you REALLY think we would waste the water by weighting down THAT side of the boat? :-) I got a few pic's for folks, I'll crop them on Monday from the office.
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       09-23-2005, 10:42 PM Reply   
Why wouldn't you weight the RIGHT side not the wrong side? Your boat has a great wake on the wrong side why mess with a good thing. The right side could use an enhancement don't you think? Wish I was going with you tommorrow. Have fun with mini-me.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-24-2005, 8:18 AM Reply   
Dennis you are so funny - right and wrong side. :-)

For everyone that is thinking about the Tsunami pumps and a new Fat Sac from Fly High, do it! I don't know what they've done, but we filled a single 1500 pound sac in about 10 minutes. They are fast and exceptionally easy to attach. The hype is true.

If you have the room in your boat and are serious about wakebuilding, I'd go the custom sac also. Just made the whole process so mucg easier and we have no sacs ontop of seats or on the floor, everything is underneath or in the locker. The only downside, if there is one, is that the residual water in the sac is a little more than with the standard water bed fitting. Nothing major and we cured it by holding the sac in the air to drain towards the pump.

The Fresh Air Exhaust made things so quiet it was amazing. My son was riding and I heard something. I'm asking: "did you hear that?" It was James groaning as he'd fall or bust a move. No more yelling above the exhaust note to have a conversation inside the boat. I had never heard anyone behind the boat make a noise. You can also hold a conversation with the rider, although you're yelling like inside the boat BEFORE the FAE was installed. I didn't notice any effect on handling, loading the boat or driving a WOT. For a safety related product, it would appear to offer many benefits in sound reduction. Now if you LOVE the mcahismo of your boat's exhaust note you won't like this.

I am enjoying the lower pitched prop. We dropped probably 10 mph off the top end, but out of the hole is killer, plus with as much weight as we are dragging around now, I believe we are getting better fuel economy. I'll double check that today.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-25-2005, 11:23 AM Reply   
The proof is in the pudding. I'm guessing about 2 foot of air. I hate this Kodak software, so I'll repost a better pic tomorrow.

James2'
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-26-2005, 1:27 PM Reply   
Ok, hopefully these are cropped better. The first is of the FAE installation on the back of my '03 Tige 23V. Clears the TAPS plate and is a clean and easy install.

Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-26-2005, 1:32 PM Reply   
Poor quality pic, taken like at 6 AM, but gives you an idea. The Fat Sac runs from the rear compartment forward to the observers seat.

Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-26-2005, 1:36 PM Reply   
The wake was about a 10-12 inches taller and some amount longer. It allowed James to 2 additional pumps into his air.

Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-26-2005, 1:39 PM Reply   
Not sure that it's meaningful, but the sac without water. :-)

Old    marc (norcal72)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-26-2005, 2:31 PM Reply   
jeff, i would assume you had some kind of fat sacs in the boat before. how come you got such great results with the custom sac? i only ask because i am strongly considering doing the same. Thanks
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-26-2005, 3:52 PM Reply   
Hey Marc...what the custom sac did was fill up every square inch from the back of the boat forward. So...I had a smaller sac that fit under the bench seat and one that was in the rear compartment, but of course there were gaps at the gas tank fill, along the edges under the bench seat etc. Plus I think...and I can't confirm this, there seems to be some improvement with lowering the weight closer to the waterline...although we'd have to talk to an engineer to get input on that.

Mark Sure (SP?) of Inland Surfer fame has a picture of a wake he built on his '05 Enzo with the same sort of sac (it's where I got the idea from) and it's monsterous and LLLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG.

To me, just the convience of NOT have 4 sac's is worth the price of admission. The custom sac converted the entire side of the boat from the observer's seat back into ballast, which added, I'm guessing another 500 pounds or so.
Old    Jim Galloway (jimgalloway)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-27-2005, 9:17 AM Reply   
Hi Jeff. Awesome air! Thanks for all the info. Is your wake pushing 4 feet??? I printed your picture for future reference. Hope to go wakesufing this week. Im praying for wake 1/2 as big as yours.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-27-2005, 9:47 AM Reply   
Hey Jim, Thanks for the kudos...I wish I could ride like that! Yeah, from the bottom of the transition to the very peak is right at 4 feet +/-. I'm going to post a few pic's in the "Post your Pic's III" thread. All of them were taken from the observer's seat, not looking up from the swim deck like some folks do for effect. You can see the bottom of James' board on a few. It's a pretty sweet setup.
Old    superhero_ken            09-27-2005, 12:48 PM Reply   
Jeff, I looked at putting that Fresh Air Exhaust system on my Sanger but I was leery about it and rightfully so. I called my engine Manufacturer (Mercury)and they let me know that the Fresh Air Exhaust system would void the engine warranty because it does not meet engine back pressure specs and also California Air Resource Bureau (CARB) specs. So I did not put it on my boat and do not suggest it to others as well.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-27-2005, 3:19 PM Reply   
Hey Ken thanks for the feedback, but...I found the opposite to be true. Calabria sold their boats, for a period, with the FAE installed and I can remember competing behind two such boats at Wake Surf Jam in 2004. I can't imagine that Calabria would violate CARB reg's. I know on the FAQ at boatpipes.com they specifically indicate it doesn't void any warranty. Although my engine warranty is over at this point. I notice you're new to wakeworld as of today, welcome and maybe you can give me the CARB violation references? I can remember doing research for my dirtbikes and the addition to an existing system wasn't problematic if it didn't effect noise or pollution output. I'd be very interested in the specifics you found.

Larry? Are you out there? Any truth to what Ken was told? Can you shed any light on the California Air Resources Board stuff and the engine warranty issue?
Old    marc (norcal72)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-27-2005, 5:32 PM Reply   
jeff, did you plumb your custom sac to the existing ballast tank or just keep in on a separate tsunami pump. i am talking with my shop about it and i know mark sher plumbed his in the system. trying to get the best way to do it. thanks
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-27-2005, 8:50 PM Reply   
Hey Marc, my Tige didn't have a built in ballast system, so we just use the Tsunami pump tossed over the side. I have built a fiberglass box and molded a few ball valves into it, with the idea of installing a reversible ballast puppy system. Honestly though...I'm satisfied with the Tsunami over the side. Are you close to us? We're heading out to New Hogan on Saturday with Dennis, Laci and possibly Steve. Before making a decision if you want to come down and see it in operation, just hit me up. We're out at Hogan every Saturday until there's enough snow to snowboard then we tuck the boat in. :-)
Old    Larry Mann (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       09-28-2005, 8:36 AM Reply   
Ken

I have spoken with representatives at Mercruiser, PleasureCraft, Indmar and General Motors. They told me that they do NOT certify boat exhaust systems. They ONLY recommend that boat exhaust systems do not exceed 2 psi back pressure and that is due simply to performance issues. We have conducted back pressure studies and found that Fresh Air Exhaust (FAE) did not increase backpressure above 2 psi except at wide open throttle, and then didn't exceed 3 psi. Inboard boats are not made for speed and seldom if ever run at wide open throttle. We tested one relatively new boat with a stock exhaust system that had almost 4 psi back pressure at wide open throttle (no FAE installed).

We requested a dialog with General Motors, Mercruiser, Pleasure Craft, and Indmar regarding FAE. We were told that they simply did not test boat exhaust systems. Fresh Air Exhaust has been installed at the factories of several boat manufacturers and no manufacturer has made any comment or suggestion to us that FAE caused an excess increase in back pressure. We are not aware of ANY testing performed by any of the engine manufacturers.

If our customers have concern about the boat’s warranty, we recommend that the local dealer install the system. That should eliminate any warranty issues. Fresh Air Exhaust has been installed by several boat dealerships and no concern about voiding warranties has been expressed to us.

As we understand CARB, which only effects California, it states that no device may be placed upon a vehicle that modifies the pollution control of that vehicle. FAE does not impact existing pollution control and should have no problems with CARB (however, I make no representation of how a California bureaucrat interprets anything). Fresh Air Exhaust has also contacted the California Air Resource Board (CARB) to apply for a grant to study the effectiveness of FAE at reducing Carbon Monoxide levels. We were told that unless we could demonstrate a reduction in pollution levels, but not including Carbon Monoxide, that they were not interested. Again, at no time did anyone at CARB we spoke with suggest that FAE would conflict with CARB rules.

And on the topic of California and CARB and the boat manufacturers and Carbon Monoxide levels:
We were told by one boat manufacturer that they would NOT do anything about the Carbon Monoxide levels in their boats unless they were REQUIRED to do so by regulation. Also, many of the new boats come with stickers prominently displayed that states the boat meets California’s Ultra Low Emission standards. THESE STANDARDS DO NOT REGULATE THE LEVELS OF CARBON MONOXIDE. We have conducted brief testing of an Ultra Low Emissions boat and it still produced potentially deadly levels of Carbon Monoxide. My concern is that someone seeing this label on their boat will think their boat is safe for Carbon Monoxide and be lulled into a false sense of security. I have spoken with one individual who states that the boat dealership told him his boat produced safe levels of Carbon Monoxide. This is absolutely incorrect!

To date, Fresh Air Exhaust has a 96% customer satisfaction level and those customers have told us that FAE was “incredible”, “totally transparent to boat performance” and “1000% satisfied”. Our boat has had FAE installed on it for three years. We take our “fresh air” for granted until we go out on someone else’s boat and have to choke down their exhaust fumes and listen to their loud exhaust noise.
Old    superhero_ken            09-28-2005, 12:11 PM Reply   
Jeff, thank you for the welcome to the site. I have been wake surfing for years but just started to do it a lot because of my bad knees.

Well, maybe I was wrong on the FAE but I just go by what Merc told me and they told me that it voids my warranty. What companies install it at the factory because when I was reserching boats it was not an option on anyone's boat? Not even Calabria.
Old    4sher            09-28-2005, 5:31 PM Reply   
Marc,

It's a piece of cake to add the custom sac to the existing fill and empty pumps that centurion uses. I just removed my stock tank under the seat, and re-used all of the fittings. I had to lengthen some of the hoses and wiring, but the fittings from the tank screwed right into the bag. The only thing I added was ball valves on each hose (fill, empty and overflow). The water in the sac generates enough pressure to empty itself through the overflow and empty lines, so I just close the ball valves when I'm all full. I also use a tsumami pump as a secondary fill or empty pump when I want it to drain or fill faster. I just added a quick connect fitting to the over flow and pop it off and put one end or the other if the tsumami pump in its place. This way I'm filling with 2 pumps and emptying with 2 pumps (stock and tsumami)
Old    mgg            09-29-2005, 10:14 AM Reply   
Larry. How does the FAE work with the wedge? I was looking at your site and did not see any pics of it on a malibu. I have a 2005 vlx. It does look like a great system. I am hoping to make my boys enjoy boating more with it. Thanks, Mike
Old    Larry Mann (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       09-29-2005, 1:02 PM Reply   
Mike
Unfortunately, at this time, the Wedge and FAE are incompatible. We now make a bracket to mount FAE to the Wedge bracket on Malibu's that don't use the Wedge. Also, if you keep your boat on the water with the Wedge down all the time, they are compatible. You just can't raise and lower the Wedge with FAE in place. We are working on a few ideas to make them compatible. We hope to have a "fix" by next spring. The other option is to use more ballast and not the Wedge.
Old    mgg            09-29-2005, 6:59 PM Reply   
Well I will look forward to next spring then. I like the shape that the wedge makes. Do you know if the turndowns on the malibu helps? Doesn't seem like it would do much but something is beeter than nothing. Mike
Old    Larry Mann (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       09-29-2005, 8:44 PM Reply   
Mike
What are the turndowns on the Malibu?
Old    mgg            09-30-2005, 8:13 AM Reply   
Larry, they are basic stainless steel exhaust turn downs. They point the exhaust down into the water instead of having it come straight out. It is nothing close to your system. Mike
Old    h20proof (h20proof)      Join Date: Mar 2004       10-01-2005, 2:09 AM Reply   
Jeff,
How much was your custom fat sac?

Have you noticed any loosening of the custom exhaust? Seems like the engine thrust from the prop would loosen the unit eventually.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-01-2005, 5:47 AM Reply   
Hey Josh,

I don't have the exact cost with me at home, but I do believe that the folks at Barefoot International sold it to me for around $500. I looked at my CC statement the other day and I can vaguely remember $481. Those folks are great, you can give them a call or shoot them an email and they will get back to you in a day asking for dimensions. I think it's the dimensions of the sac that determine the cost.

I'm really anal about checking the boat and trailer before going out each time - I had to tighten the nuts that attach the support to the swimdeck after the first run...like it settled or something, but nothing since then. I believe there are 12 hose clamps and...those haven't loosened yet. I will no doubt reseat the unit where it attachs to the exhaust outlet at the start of each season. Like you say, I would think that would be where it would exhibit the stress.
Old    Larry Mann (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       10-02-2005, 12:31 PM Reply   
Mike
We initially made some turndown pipes and found they did nothing for Carbon Monoxide levels and almost nothing for the noise.
Old    Larry Mann (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       10-02-2005, 12:32 PM Reply   
Josh
No, the Fresh Air Exhaust, if properly installed (which isn't difficult) does not loosen. Over time, the rubber hose that holds the pipe sections together adheres tighter to the pipe. If it is tight enough when initially installed it gets even tighter over time. We used to use fewer hose clamps and had a few boats where the pipes rotated or slipped. Adding hose clamps eliminated that problem. We now ship each system with 2 hose clamps per joint.
Old    Laci (tcluv85)      Join Date: Jan 2004       10-02-2005, 9:35 PM Reply   
Hey everyone - I got to surf behind Jeff's boat for the first time this weekend. We started with the weight on the 'WRONG' side of the boat without a custom sac. It was a good wake, I had seen better though. But then we switched to the 'CORRECT' side and filled the custom sac. Wow what a difference. It was a very long clean wake. It was fun to fall back and then speed forward. Also made it nice for those of us that are not quite comfortable coming in so close to the back of the boat yet, allowing us to be able to hang out and try some carves.

Dennis - Nice to meet you. Love the banana board. Gotta post pics on wakeworld of it.

Jeff - thanks again. It was a blast and I can't wait to surf again and try to remember to surf like a surfer and not a wakeboarder, even if I do have to get lower to the water than your family does.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-03-2005, 10:02 AM Reply   
Hey Laci, thanks for the props. We certainly enjoyed having you out on the boat. Dennis is whining about wanting more "WRONG" side wake time. :-)
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       10-03-2005, 5:51 PM Reply   
Lacy,
Great riding with you this weekend also. The weather that you ride in gives me the incentive to go all year long this year. There are random posts with the banana board pics on Wakeworld. I just don't feel the love from people who ride on the other side of the wake. I feel like I must be from the other side of the tracks (wake) so to speak.
Jeff,
I just can't figure out why you would spend all this time and effort to make the wrong side awesome while neglecting my side of the boat. Seems only fair I think don't you. After all I do provide a service in making your riding better. (think FATSAC).
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-03-2005, 5:54 PM Reply   
I was just thinking about this after talking with an associate and reviewing Laci's post. I really believe that our "goofy" wake diminished in both size and quality with the change in prop. Before install the lower pitched prop, we could maintain a failry clean "goofy" wake at a speed on PP of 9.8. After the prop change anything below 10.5 left a very soft wash on the lip. Now TURNING in the direction of the wake helped considerably. The opposite side seemed to actually improve with this new prop. Not sure if this has any general applicability across hulls.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-03-2005, 5:56 PM Reply   
Dennis, you are the best ballast ever! You have to go with us this weekend so that we can try working with "that" side of the boat. :-)

Old    highairs            10-06-2005, 7:34 AM Reply   
Hi, I'm new to posting here. Dedicated wakesurfer w/fav Yellow Loogey board, old CWB Ride starter board, and soon to have COEX. We drive a 04 CalAir in Alabama.

Been working on increasing size of wake and looking for ur input/exp. on how we have modified to ride: 9.3 mph, 3 Blade ACME CNC Machined 12 1-2 x 12 5/8 Propeller.

We found we got the best ride on right side w/4 built in hull ballast tanks holding a total of 750# (PureVert Wake System). Added a 750# fly high sac starting 2' behind driver and ending where rear seat would meet the rear deck (removed rear seat when not needed).

We removed swim platform to avoid wake fade and yes, the wake got MUCH bigger and longer. Then we cut our teak platform down to about 20" and put it back on, and the wake decreased. So we took the platform back off and we now climb out of the water on the trim tab.

We'de like more wake. Think adding another 600# sac in the right rear locker would help or ????

Thanks, Wild Woman (Patt)

PS We're available to play if ur passing through. Halfway between Birmingham and Atlanta, so our 10,000 acre Lake Wedowee is not busy except for holidays. Very clean water, currently 76 degrees.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-06-2005, 9:06 AM Reply   
Hey Patt, That's interesting about the swim deck. I know on a houseboat trip our swim deck came off on one side, so we removed it heading back to get a replacement bolt. The only noticeable change was the spray on the transom went away...it didn't have an impact on the size or shape of the wake.

I'd toss the sac in the locker and see what happens. My guess is that you'll get a TALLER wake, the transition will get more steep and you'll lose some length in the pocket. You can probably restore some length by increasing your speed from 9.3 to 9.8 or 10, but...the height of the wake will decrease.

You'll be careful without the swimdeck, please? One of the greatest safety factors for wakesurfing is the swimdeck between the rider and prop. Folks DO NOT flame me! :-)

Let us know how the weight placement works for you.
Old    Larry Mann (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       10-06-2005, 9:54 AM Reply   
Patt
Removing the swim platform is a BAD idea. In wakesurfing, the swim platform performs 2 important functions:
1) It is a physical barrier between the surfer and the propeller. Removing the platform cuts the barrier in half.
2) It provides some limited protection from Carbon Monoxide.

My first guess is that the problem is not with the swim platform, but with the platform mounting brackets. If your swim platform mounting brackets are spaced too wide, the bracket is probably interfering with the wave, not the platform. Either position the brackets closer to the center of the boat, or have them modified so they don’t produce as much drag.

You state you cut the swim platform to 20". I assume that was the front to back dimension. Try angling the edges so the rear of the platform is narrower than the front. Also, on your boat, it may be appropriate to raise the swim platform higher, above the water.

My opinion is that the swim platform should be just below the water on the surf side; therefore, when you surf into the boat, your board simply rides on top of the swim platform.

Larry Mann
www.HowToWakeSurf.com
Old    highairs            10-07-2005, 6:48 AM Reply   
Thank you Jeff and Larry for your comments above.
I realize you are correct Larry, (swim platform = CO2 protection & and swimmer barrier). I consider myself a safe experienced boater, but you gave me 2 reasons to put platform back on. And we will continue experimenting w/sac placement. Any suggestions gratefully listened to, Patt

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