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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Wakeboarding Discussion Archives > Archive through July 21, 2005

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Old    atmosphereplus            07-13-2005, 9:17 PM Reply   
i thought it might be a good idea!
Old    toolfan (toolfan)      Join Date: Jul 2003       07-14-2005, 1:03 PM Reply   
i pretty sure any diesel can run on biodiesel.
Old    atmosphereplus            07-15-2005, 1:13 PM Reply   
but, what about a wakeboard boat, can it be done? it sure would be cool
Old    Ryan Rantz (airrantz)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-15-2005, 1:27 PM Reply   
They need to come out with a diesel wakeboard boat first. There's a few obstacles in the way such as heat, and smell. Someone had pics of an X-80 with a Yanmar diesel in it on here.
Old    Ryan Rantz (airrantz)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-15-2005, 1:41 PM Reply   
speaking of that I wonder who owns that diesel X-80??
Old    doctor octagon (dococ)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-15-2005, 4:23 PM Reply   
My co-worker just bought an older Mercedes diesel specifically to convert to biodiesel. There are several mechanics in the Berkeley area who specialize in the conversion, but this guy told me it costs a couple grand to do it properly. I would love to see a battery powered or battery assisted boat, like the Toyota Prius or the Lexus SUV. The batteries would be great for extra weight, and the silence would make the boating experience so much nicer. I'm sure it's a long way off if it ever happens at all. We may be seeing hydrogen engines by that time. Anything would be better than paying $100 bucks at the pump for a day of riding, probably will be even higher the way things are going.
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       07-15-2005, 4:48 PM Reply   
I have ran bio-diesel in the Powerstroke with no problems
Old    Eh Brah (nautyboy)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-15-2005, 4:53 PM Reply   
Isn't bio-diesel really expensive?
Old    swass            07-15-2005, 4:57 PM Reply   
I've never heard of any modifications necessary to run bio-diesel. That's supposed to be part of the appeal. I have a co-worker who makes his own; he didn't need any mods to use it.
Old    doctor octagon (dococ)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-15-2005, 5:35 PM Reply   
That's cool, and I appreciate the info. I should talk to this dude again. Maybe I misunderstood him, or maybe he was misinformed or somebody was trying to take advantage of him.
Old    eastcoastjedi            07-15-2005, 5:38 PM Reply   
All the info you need is here
http://www.biodiesel.org/markets/mar/
definately possible, just not applied to the wakeboard market yet.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       07-15-2005, 8:25 PM Reply   
Bio diesel is more expensive than diesel. No engine modification is required. IMO a diesel power package would offer some clear benefits of gasoline but as with anything there are drawbacks.

Benefits:
Much better low speed torque .i.e. can get on plane with more ballast
Diesel engines last longer
Diesel engines cost less to maintain
No carbon monoxide – safe for wake surfing

Drawbacks:
Some (many?) marinas don’t offer diesel
Market acceptance - if you build it will Wakeboarders buy them?
Horse power freaks might not understand the torque is more important
Might be noisier – Europeans have made more improvements than in the US
The smell of diesel might not be accepted (but some put up w/ 2-cycle odor)

I don't think heat would be an issue as indicated above, there are many commercial water craft with diesel power packages – or maybe I don’t understand the statement.

The purpose of the “battery assist” on the hybird gas-electric vehicles in part is to allow the car to determine when the engine can be turned off saving fuel at a stop light for example. Other reasons include regenerative breaking. I don’t think that either of these benefits would translate well to wakeboarding tow boats.

I don’t think that you’ll save any money on hydrogen fuel, at least not any time soon. You have to get the hydrogen from some place. One place to get it from is oil, electrolysis isn’t very efficient and large scale nuclear plants to produce hydrogen haven’t been built. In effect what you end up with is a longer tail pipe, I mean that the tail pipe on you boat is in part replaced by a plant somewhere converting hydrocarbons to H2.

Fuel cells are theoretically more efficient than reciprocating engines, but the more efficient systems are big, big like a house, smaller fuel cells might reach 45% to 50% efficiencies. I think gas engines run around 35% efficient and diesel over 40%.

I think that's way more than 2 cents so I should probbaly shut up. Isn't technology cool?
Old    zboomer            07-16-2005, 5:35 PM Reply   
After owning a Cummins-equipped diesel truck for 2 years, I'd DEFINITELY love one in a wakeboard boat.

It's not that loud, smooth, very powerful, and I never smell it at all. Also gets MUCH better mileage than a gas engine. Diesel's have come a long ways in just the past few years with common-rail injection, and other improvements.

Very expensive though, I think it added like $6k over the Hemi. It will pay for itself eventually with the mileage improvement and longevity, but it takes a while.

I'd love to drop it in my VLX, and slap a 14x24 or so prop on there, heheh. Only problem is the torque (600lb-ft) would probably roast the V-drive in no time. Everything would need to be beefed up considerably. Even the extra weight would be nice in a wakeboard boat.
Old    derek boyer (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       07-17-2005, 8:29 AM Reply   
Seem to remember a Malibu d-drive with a diesel...


Good points about regenerative braking, etc. The appeal to a gas- or diesel-electric hybrid system in a boat is that you can use the batteries to buffer a smaller (more efficient) engine that's running closer to full-power (more efficient) for a longer period of time. Just think of it like this: how much energy is used up getting 6000 lbs of boat onto plane? Maybe we're talking 300 ft-lbs (or watts or whatever units I should be using here) for ten seconds or something. Once you're on plane, you back way off on the throttle because maybe you only require 100 ft-lbs at that load.

Replace that big gas engine with a little 1.5L VVT, VTEC 4-cylinder engine that's sized to push that boat at like 30 MPH or so. Not enough power to GET it up on plane when ballasted, but a little more than enough to KEEP it on plane ballasted. When you put the hammer down, you've got the output of the 4-banger plus energy that's been stored up in batteries. So long as your drive motor is rated appropriately, you could actually get MORE power down to the prop with this setup than with the big V-8.

By the time that boat's up on plane, the batteries are pretty much used up, but the power requirement's dropped way off at 22 mph. At this point, the 4-banger's got an energy surplus (doesn't require full power to maintain wakeboard speed), so it stays at a higher-than-required throttle setting until the storage is refilled in anticipation of the next fall and restart.

Fuel efficiency would be gained from running a higher duty cycle - it's more efficient for a 100-horse engine to average 90% workload for the day than for a 300-horse engine to average 30%. Yeah that sounds ugly from an engine wear perspective, but diesels and generators have been doing that kind of stuff for a long time. Would also need to be successful at quieting the engine too, as it'd often be running at high throttle settings while you cruising around at low speeds.



The second big benefit is that you'd have some serious flexibility in placing the engine. Only need electrical cables connecting the engine/generator, battery and drive motor to the load controller. You could end up with a true walk-through transom or other cool seating arrangements (battery bank on one side, engine on other, motor beneath the floorboards.)


Biggest problems are getting electric motors and battereis that can handle a 300HP/300Ft-lb surge. An electric motor that size would be pretty big and pretty expensive. An option there would be to run a gas or diesel-electic-hydraulic system, where the drive motor actually drives a hydraulic pump which in turn drives a hydraulic motor. Hydraulic motors are just crazy small and could totally fit under the floorboards or in a pod under the hull. Would be kind of cool to be able to mount the prop to the hydraulic motor's output shaft and then put the mess on the end of a stick.
Old    ryan kleefisch (leykis1o1)      Join Date: May 2005       07-18-2005, 4:22 PM Reply   
arent hydrolic motors rather slow in comparrison? do they put out enogh rpm to be practical for a prop?..maybe paddle wheels?

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