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Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 1:30 AM Reply   
I think many people see cosmetic surgery as a tune-up or an improvement opportunity, not a psychological disorder.

Something not very different from:

a hair style
painted nails
plucked eyebrows
working out for cosmetic reasons
dieting for cosmetic reasons

To some, a boob job is just a semi-permanent wonder bra.
Old    Doctor Octagon (dococ)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-30-2005, 1:43 AM Reply   
VERY well stated, Frankie! (you're smart, duh!)
But it wouldn't be WakeWorld without somebody offering critique, would it? I simply would ask you to substitute "mental health provider" broadly defined, because most psychiatrists these days will simply schedule a 15-minute appointment and send you home with a pill. Other types of mental health treatment might be preferable for many with self-esteem and/or body dysmorphic concerns.

Sorry, I digress. I find it sad that somebody with as much seemingly going for them as Dallas would feel the need to seek surgical enhancement. She is an important role model for lots of females, and she now will be providing a different sort of influential message.

I feel the same about Gwen Stefani. Rumor has it that she got her boobs done. In a world of Brittneys and WWF Divas, I felt Gwen was one of the only women left who sent a message that females can achieve success based on talent and natural beauty without aspiring to the artificial and ever-unrealistric Hollywood "standard." If the rumors are true, it is a very sad thing in my mind. The collective self-esteem of young women everywhere will have just suffered another blow.

But then again, who am I to judge what is right for Gwen, or Dallas, or the Monster Tower model, or whoever? I guess they did not ask to be role-models, or did they? I just feel bad for all the girls and women now who will look at Dallas, Gwen, or whoever and feel even worse about themselves as a result.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 1:53 AM Reply   
Who are we to judge? Its Dallas' life/body not ours.

I know a woman who wants a tuck and a lift after birthing/feeding two children -- I don't see any problem with it -- if you can afford it, you want it and its available, then go for it.

Still, I also acknowledge that there is a big difference between a 40 year old doing this and an 18 year old.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 1:54 AM Reply   
frankie, where'd you put the dictionary/thesaurus...i always need it reading your posts!

doc, whether they ask to be one or not, fact is, they ARE role models. don't you agree?

dane, with all due respect, improvement opportunity is working out, eating right, and not abusing (alcohol, tobacco drugs) the body.

as for dallas, she's 18. she's fully capable of making a decision as getting cosmetic surgery. but, i hope she keeps in mind that her body is still changing, and will continue to do so until she's in her mid 20's. (not saying that she would've grown 2 cup sizes in that time...but you never know!)
Old    Cliff Griffin (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-30-2005, 7:48 AM Reply   
And still no pic's of the new boobies.

Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       06-30-2005, 8:14 AM Reply   
While I believe Frankie was on the right track, I have to disagree with placing every cosmetic surgery with a disorder or low self esteem. Trust me, I've met many women that reeked of confidence and still opted for bigger breasts because they could. I believe you can look good, be confident and secure, and still see room for yet more improvement. In the entertainment industry one might make changes to build a more appealing look for a profession and at this point it may be more of an investment.

Totally unfair to label Dallas as a role model and expect her to base her life decisions on your expectations. Because of her professional life she should conform to what you believe is appropriate for her personal life? Totally unfair. Besides, this is wakeboarding, not the pop industry.

Some do have issues. I also believe that people that bash people that opt for cosmetic surgery have a different set of issues. I'm not suggesting that Frankie was bashing.

(Message edited by jarrod on June 30, 2005)
Old    Jason Pribyl (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-30-2005, 8:15 AM Reply   
LOL- Funny Cliff
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-30-2005, 8:17 AM Reply   
Frankie, that is a load of crap. I don't believe that there is anyone who is 100% happy with themselves or their body. So by "definition" everyone has psychological and self-esteem issues. If you didn't then you wouldn't be human.

So that means this boils down to judging people. And your post indicates that you think anyone who gets any sort of cosmetic surgery to be superficial. Which is what I think of your depth of thought put into this subject.

The saddest thing about this thread is I wouldn't doubt that Dallas has seen it. Discussing her attitude in public is one thing but going on and on about her alledged implants is another. I think that we should treat a fellow wakeboard (even a pro) a little more like a human than we do movie stars.
Old    Cliff Griffin (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-30-2005, 8:21 AM Reply   

I totally agree. Just look at the overwhelming self esteem these girls have.


Old    patrick3ds            06-30-2005, 8:28 AM Reply   
bet they float well
Old    socalgrl79            06-30-2005, 8:29 AM Reply   
Holy crap!!
How would someone even have enough skin for that!

Old    patrick3ds            06-30-2005, 8:44 AM Reply   

looks like they had enough to remove skin from other places on those nasty bodies!!!
Old    Nate Hudson (iamnathanhudson)      Join Date: Dec 2002       06-30-2005, 9:03 AM Reply   
ok, i think those are just nasty.
Old    Frankie Flores Schmied (frankie_f)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-30-2005, 9:06 AM Reply   
joe's holding out on you... there's a pic of them on his desktop.

doc oc.
no... not gwen! i loved her for being who she was, just the way she was. in fact, it was a true testament to her beauty that she seemed confident and happy with herself - just the way it was.

you can't compare major surgery to painted nails. having cosmetic surgery - like any surgery - will FOREVER alter your medical history, putting you at risk for a whole new set of diseases and disorders and decreasing your chances of surviving another surgery (perhaps a necessary one, like one that is needed to save your life after a heart attack or accident). i can't believe anyone would think that it is worth that? i mean, i can't believe that any one person would think that the risk (and it is just that) of being "beautiful" (and as discussed before, it's not a real beauty or real happiness) is worth compromising your life. to me, NOTHING is worth compromising your life... that's all we have.

using breast implants as an example...
i do research on ovarian/breast cancer for two gynecologic oncologists, so it's part of my job to read medical literature regarding various causes or theories of ovarian/breast cancer. about half of the women in our study who have been diagnosed with cancer have had breast implants - i know b/c it's in their chart, b/c it is now part of their medical history and will forever play a factor in their health issues for the rest of their lives, 'til death do them part. it is a plastic surgeon's obligation to inform his elective patient of the risks involved. unfortunately, b/c the patient believes that this operation is the "cure" for their self-esteem issues, they are often too distracted to pay attention to the serious risks. after breast aug. surgery...

1. b/c it's surgery your body feels as though it's been hit by a truck - as it should b/c you needed blood transfusion, just to keep you alive.

2. your body undergoes a major immune response to the foreign objects that are now in your chest region and very close to the heart.

3. massive scar tissue builds around the plastic bags on the muscle that has been internally bruised and stretched.

4. b/c of that, every year you need an MRI - NOT a mammogram b/c mammograms aren't accurate enough to detect cancer. elective MRI's aren't covered by HMOs or insurance companies. Even so, the implants themselves may hide tumors and can even obstruct the heart under MRI.

5. every two years, you HAVE to have another surgery. now most people think it's recommended - no. if you want to be sure that your body doesn't develop cancer due to all the scaring in your chest, you need surgery. during the surgery, the doctor removes the build up of scar tissue that could lead to cancer or an immunological disease.

some stats/info:
- 75% of all breast aug. patients have to have another surgery 2 years post their first one due to complications.

- in someone that young, breast implants have been linked to neurological disorders as well - as the nervous system is not fully developed until you are circa 25.

- for every 3 women who get a boob job, 1 who already had one gets hers removed due to complications or personal reasons.

what if the mommy-of-two gets a tummy tuck and then dies of an undiagnosed hernia as a result of the surgery? or what if she develops polyps and they become cancerous (as they often do)? (these are two likely outcomes from someone who has undergone GI surgery) so mommy-of-two dies and leaves behind two kids... but she has a nice tummy to be buried with 6 feet under ground???

it's just not worth it. NOTHING cosmetic should be worth your own life - and the life of your family. if one thinks that it is, then i would say there is something wrong and something deeper to take care of - without surgery.

Old    eric fox (fox)      Join Date: Jul 2002       06-30-2005, 9:25 AM Reply   
Well, this post has really degenerated. My original intent was to discuss what seemed to be a poor attitude. Thanks for your post Jeff Barton, it has given me some items to consider further. I don't feel bad for her situation, it's one which she has chosen and I think that you have to be prepared to take the good and the bad. Unfortunately at 16-18, I don't know that you can be, and she certainly has a lot on her plate.

I agree that she didn't sign on to be a role model, but then that comes with the teritory. Kinda like trying to buy a new car with the engine left out...doesn't really work that way. Problem is the more you reject that role, the more you will find that the rest of it goes away and isolation sets in.

I won't address the "other" issues, as it was not part of my intent in starting this thread.

Just in case she does decide to peek in:

Perhaps I have assigned more importance to your comments than necessary. Good Luck Dallas on another fine season...try not to let the "celebrity" get in the way of your personal and professionl relationships...hopefully someone will come along to challenge you in a positive way in both of those arenas as well.

Old    Frankie Flores Schmied (frankie_f)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-30-2005, 9:26 AM Reply   

"So by 'definition' everyone has psychological and self-esteem issues. If you didn't then you wouldn't be human."

yes, to some extent we all do. yet, the psyche and that which affects it is on a continum. i have known women who couldn't even get out of bed b/c they were afraid to see what they looked like that day and i have met women who refused to wear open-toe shoes b/c they hated the way their little toe looked. both have body-conscious issues; but as any intelligent person can see, one is differnt from the other in severity to the psyche. as you say, we are all human and therefore we are all flawed. thank you for proving my point.

"Which is what I think of your depth of thought put into this subject."

well that just sounds like a deus ex machina; but you are entitled to your opinion.

Old    patrick3ds            06-30-2005, 9:29 AM Reply   
thanks frankie i have a mole im scared to get taken off now
Old    Frankie Flores Schmied (frankie_f)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-30-2005, 9:34 AM Reply   
well, in your case, having the mole may put you at a higher risk of getting skin cancer than getting it removed. and that is not cosmetic surgery - that is a necessary procedure. :-)
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       06-30-2005, 9:36 AM Reply   
NOUN: Something believed to cure all human disorders

Hold on..... Can we slow down? I'm still on Frankies first post.
Old    patrick3ds            06-30-2005, 9:38 AM Reply   
Old    eric fox (fox)      Join Date: Jul 2002       06-30-2005, 9:40 AM Reply   
Help....Help... I have been threadjacked!!!!

Old    Antbug (antbug)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 10:11 AM Reply   
Frankie take is easy with all these BIG words. Remember we're wakeboarders not Doctor's.

Hahn ~ Thanks. I was going to look that one up
Old    Cliff Griffin (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-30-2005, 10:15 AM Reply   

Come On!

Your original post came off as a sound bite for Entertainment Tonight.

Has Dallas's success gone to her head??? Tune in tonight for our exclusive coverage.

NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH...DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH... (in my best ET theme song voice)
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       06-30-2005, 10:33 AM Reply   
Eric is right, let's get back to the topic of her interview. I sat down and read the piece last night. Dallas was right on the money. The women on tour have not been able to compete at the same level as Dallas. Like I stated before, they have shunned her because of her skill level. Like the title of her interview, "Lonely at the top" You can often find Dallas at any Pro Tour stop sitting by herself or with her mother. Many of the other female competitors will acknowledge her but are not sincere when they see her simply because of envy or intimidation. The other athletes will mumble things beneath their breath being very catty, excluding her from friendly conversation.

Here is an outstanding young female athlete, at the top of her game, pushing the sport to a whole new level for female riders everywhere. Dallas takes her career very seriously, riding daily to progress her skill level and open up new doors for the next generation of female riders.

I would like to be clear when I say that I enjoy watching Emily, Lauren, Melissa and the rest of the women ride. Particularly because they ride better than me! But this thread began with an opinion on her interview. It was taken to another level that had nothing to do with Eric's opinion, which he is entitled to.

I'm curious to know how many people on this thread have actually read the interview. I encourage you to go out and get a copy of Wakeboarding Magazine, read the piece and comment on the future of women’s professional wakeboarding. In my opinion, it doesn't look very bright. If more of the female riders don't step it up, the Pro Tour will be forced to cancel future events and all female riders, both pro and non pro, will suffer.

Dallas is an excellent role model, superior athlete and friend. I would ask all of you to consider her feelings and what she has done for women in this sport before you make comments on her personal life that have nothing to do with wakeboarding.

Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 10:36 AM Reply   
Man I'm gonne for a day and.....Sheeesh!

My life has been full of....It's not gonna be me cuss this and that and THAT..I'm never gonna do because I know better.....Well for everybody that thinks they are imuned(sp)? to society and thinking they will NEVER......Just don't say it cuss you will find yourself doing it tomorrow.
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 10:38 AM Reply   
Amy ~ Tongue ring and tattoo on the small of your back.....Nice,I'm sure Blake will enjoy the tongue ring more then for it's good looks.
Old    eric fox (fox)      Join Date: Jul 2002       06-30-2005, 10:45 AM Reply   

Another you think she has pulled Women's boarding to another level? I say no, because if no one else can compete at that level it's not much of a competition is it? Do we have another Anika Sorenstam (sp) on our hands? Will Dallas move to compete with the men?

I think it is great to see a woman doing so well in a sport dominated by guys. I think it makes watching women's boarding a little underwhelming when the only suprise is who finishes second or third.

Old    socalgrl79            06-30-2005, 10:54 AM Reply   

I know, right? That is just horrifying.

Big Ed,

Hahaha! You betcha!

Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 10:59 AM Reply   
After all the posts and all the threads....I'm sure poor Blake got...00
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 10:59 AM Reply   
After all the posts and all the threads....I'm sure poor Blake got...00 }
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 10:59 AM Reply   
After all the posts and all the threads....I'm sure poor Blake got...00 }}
Old    socalgrl79            06-30-2005, 11:01 AM Reply   
HAHAHAHA! Oh crap, that was f'ing hilarious.


(Message edited by socalgrl79 on June 30, 2005)
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 11:08 AM Reply   
Frankie, thanks for the info. It is interesting. I appreciate your physical health argument more than your mental health argument.

I still think your original post was harsh. Many people get one or two procedures in their lives and it's no big deal provided they sign up to the risk, they are well informed and they pay the bills.

Most people getting cosmetic surgery do not have the freakish self-esteem issues that you described.
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 11:12 AM Reply   
Really,Really ,I didn't mean to post that 3 times...I don't know what happend?

My damm computer!
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 11:15 AM Reply   
I agree GD,just because a person wants to get a penis enlargement I meen his teeth whiten doesn't mean they have low self-esteem.
Old    Randy (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       06-30-2005, 11:21 AM Reply   
hey seattle, looks like your crew brought their own fat sacks.
Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       06-30-2005, 11:22 AM Reply   
Good post Jeff Barton and Hahn, seems like you guys have a true representation of what is really going on, I totatlly agree. I didnt read most of the threads since a lot of them were hijacked with useless crap. but this quote right here hit the nail on the head;


Many of the other female competitors will acknowledge her but are not sincere when they see her simply because of envy or intimidation. The other athletes will mumble things beneath their breath being very catty, excluding her from friendly conversation.

I think that statement is sad but so true especially amongst females even outside of the sporting events. Heck, I catch my own wife looking at another womans shoes or body type and naturally being jealous or filled with envy. In my opinion, its natural for most women to have a sort of "detestation" for other women (I am sure I will get flamed for that one). Especially a woman who is dominating. Case in point, I don't see any guys hating on Parks Bonifay or shunning him. I guess what I am getting at is from an outsiders perspective is her attitude and actions are normal considering her level of riding and titles she holds.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 11:35 AM Reply   
Dallas is the greatest woman in the sport. But, I think she is only great because not that many women pursue wakeboarding. The sampling of women is too low. If a ton more women with gymnastics skills pursued wakeboarding Dallas would have lots of competition.

Why do women bag on each other so bad?
Why do so many women not have female friends?
Old    socalgrl79            06-30-2005, 11:40 AM Reply   
Gymnastics.. damn, I was a gymnast for years and I suck at wakeboarding!
I'm definitely doing something wrong.

Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 11:46 AM Reply   
So Amy are you not gonna address the questions that GD has?
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 11:49 AM Reply   
"alleged implants," hahahaha! ok dude, if you refuse to believe, that's cool.

by the way, frankie, for the love of god, please use smaller words!!!

oh, lucky for me that frankie has been blessed so she won't need to purchase boobies!
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 11:51 AM Reply   
Yes use smaller word!Thanks joe

Joe but what about a lift in a decade?
Old    socalgrl79            06-30-2005, 11:52 AM Reply   
I can't answer that for everyone, I can only give my opinion.

I think a lot of women are insecure, so they find it necessary to insult other women they are jealous of.. in order to feel better about themselves.

Also, I don't know why women don't have a lot of female friends. I have a pretty good group of girlfriends, so that hasn't been much of a problem for me.


Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 12:43 PM Reply   
So sorry Amy...I'm being sarcastic today and I guess a little annoying.

One of those boring days for me that I wanted to ride but couldn't and now I'm bitter.

WakeWorlders should watch out today!
Old    socalgrl79            06-30-2005, 12:46 PM Reply   
Big Ed,

I'm bitter too, I'm on call this weekend.. including the 4th! Don't get me started on being stuck in Seattle.

Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 12:51 PM Reply   
Well I was supposted to move on the 1st which would give me the whole weekend to get ready(so I didn't plan ANYTHING)and now I can't move in until the 6th.NO PLANS for 4th of july and everybody is gone.don't wanna ride cuss the water is gonna be shiet.

Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-30-2005, 1:03 PM Reply   
"alleged implants," hahahaha! ok dude, if you refuse to believe, that's cool. Joe, your ability to read a post, come away completely missing the point, and drawing a erroneous conclusion is second to none.
Old    joestewart            06-30-2005, 2:18 PM Reply   
Dallas just got a B cup which looks natural with her body size. Meghan Major just got D's which is a bit too much, Tara Hamilton got C's and looks alright, and Emily wants a reduction... go figure. Haha,
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 2:23 PM Reply   
i didn't miss the point at all. i just thought your use of "alleged" was funny. the conclusion i came up with was for that comment, not the rest of your post. i totally understood your point, but see frankie's point as well. but, your needing to berate me (or anyone) isn't necessary to get your point across.

as for treating her like a human being and less like a movie star, i agree. but, like it or not, in our sport, she is a celebrity. as long as she's in the spotlight, there will always be a microscope on her, just like there's one on parks, when he parties and tries to act like a normal 20-something. so, knowing that, they have somewhat of an obligation to conduct themselves in a professional manner. we must remember that that is part of their job description.
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       06-30-2005, 3:35 PM Reply   
You guys crack me up.

I've saw Dallas earlier this year and "yes" she has fake boobs... I also saw Cathy Williams and "yes" she has fake boobs too...!

The Fu has spoken!
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 3:39 PM Reply   
and when the fu speaks, you better listen!
Old    rammer (craiger)      Join Date: May 2002       06-30-2005, 3:45 PM Reply   
"and Emily wants a reduction... go figure."

(in my best Darth Vader imitation).. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-30-2005, 3:48 PM Reply   
Joe, when you make a flippant remark about someone you shouldn't be surprised if the response isn't to your liking. When someone says that something is alleged it doesn't mean they refuse to believe it to be true. I also don't believe that getting implants is considered a failure to meet an obligation to act in a professional manner.

I see Frankie's point as well once he took the time out to explain it a little further. I wouldn't want either of my daughters to get breast implants. However his first post struck me as insensitive ridicule, and it wouldn't suprise me if Dallas did end up seeing this thread as I believe she has posted on this forum in the past.
Old    swass            06-30-2005, 3:50 PM Reply   
Frankie is a she.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 3:52 PM Reply   
John, FYI, Frankie is a girl. Actually, Joe's GF.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 4:13 PM Reply   
john, you're absolutely right. when you said "alleged," i couldn't come up with any other conclusion except that you didn't or refused to believe it. i'm sorry you found my being amused by your comment disrespectful. i should have worded it better. my apologies.

as for her obligation to act in a professional manner, i didn't mean to imply that getting breast implants is unprofessional. i was going back to what people were saying about her (ie; her interview).

and yeah, i'm the luckiest man alive as frankie is my girlfriend. her real name is francisca (pronounced fran-sis-ka, not fran-ches-ka).
Old    skatie            06-30-2005, 4:26 PM Reply   
i just wish that dallas would get some sponsors that would feature her in an ad once in awhile. she is so far above the competition, but i can't remember the last time she was pumped up by obrien or bare, she should have way bigger names!!!
Old    Tara (gypsy12)      Join Date: Apr 2004       06-30-2005, 5:02 PM Reply   
I realize there were a lot of good points made here, but I have to just throw in my disagreement:
Frankie: I respect that you're passionate about your disapproval of cosmetic surgery, but the statement about everyone who has had it being superficial is a bit much, in my opinion. A couple of other people have already said it, but it is true that a lot of people who get cosmetic surgery don't necessarily have big self-esteem issues, nor are they superficial. As I said, I respect your opinion, but I think your first post is bashing and demonstrates a lack of acceptance of other people's views and is a little close-minded... mainly because of your accusation.

(Message edited by gypsy12 on June 30, 2005)
Old    Frankie Flores Schmied (frankie_f)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-30-2005, 7:02 PM Reply   
while i respect your opinion as well, i cannot and will not accept anyone who values being beautiful above being alive or being healthy. listen to that statement again... "value being beautiful above being alive or being healthy."

su·per·fi·cial ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-fshl)
1. Of, affecting, or being on or near the surface
2. Concerned with or comprehending only what is apparent or obvious
3. Apparent rather than actual or substantial
4. Trivial; insignificant

cosmetic surgery by a traditional definition, by medical definition, is an alteration of the superficial - versus an invasive procedure (although now some procedures have become quiet invasive)- and entirely elective. the adj. superficial is traditionally used as an anatomical term to denote the location and extent to which the surgery is performed. the word "superficial" comes from the meaning "at the surface" (def #1). ironically, it is also used to describe things or people who are only "skin deep".

do i think someone who values having the perfect nose versus being alive is being superficial? yes. they are choosing to place more value on a superficial alternation than on their own being, their personality, their soul, mind, creativity, etc. (def #2/#3) that's why they ultimately choose to get the surgery done b/c having a perfect nose or perfect boobs - ie. having a superficial alteration - is more important to them than possibly getting cancer, an immune disease or neurological disorder, a heart attack, blood disorders, etc.

i've interviewed women who cry about how much pain they are in, how awful the chemo is, and how they are afraid to die, and how they hate this cancer, and how they can't believe how stupid they were to get them done, how stupid they were to think that 300 cc's of fluid would make them happy. are they happy now? no, they are suffering and you know what? they are going to die. they are going to miss out on the things that truely are important. and sadly, it is only now that they will realize how (def #4) insignificant those material implants were. material implants...materialism... one who values materials = materialist.

so yes, one who values materials - and this applies to anything, not just cosmetic materials - above other things of true substance like intelligence, empathy, your soul, your personality, etc., is a materialist in my book; is superficial in my book.

what do you call it then? (i have successfully used all 4 def. of “superficial” in my explanation.)

look, i don’t like my nose, but i accept my nose. it’s big and it has a bump on it (ask joe, he’ll tell you… he makes fun of me all of the time for it). but i am not my nose. if i define myself as my nose, i am being superficial, as i equate my own value to something superficial. instead, i place value on what is important… i am intelligent, empathetic, and creative; i have a bright future, and a genuine concern and desire to want to help people medically. i think about that, and my nose doesn’t even bother me anymore… it’s on the surface… what’s important is much deeper. if i choose to get a cosmetic nose job, i have then placed importance on my nose’s appearance – which is superficial.

i don’t see how you can argue with that?

so what if you don’t have the perfect chin, brow, butt, boobs, nose, tummy, etc. so what? WHO cares? That’s NOT what matters… those things are all “of the surface”. Not to sound like an after-school special, but it is who you are that counts.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 7:13 PM Reply   
which is exactly why she's with me, cause it ain't what's on the outside!
Old    Frankie Flores Schmied (frankie_f)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-30-2005, 7:19 PM Reply   
no way... they don't call you "hot tamale" for nothing . besides, i could say the same thing about why you are with me - "'cause it ain't what's on the outside!"
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-30-2005, 7:29 PM Reply   
To each their own!

Frankie ~ you might have your smarts to fall on,but some people are not that gifted or fortunate so they make themselves feel better by doing cosmetic surgery.
Some people had their looks all their life and now it's a little too much to bare with the hanging skin and all,so they do cosmetic surgery....doesn't make them any less of a women.
For you it's easy to say that your nose doesn't matter b\c Joe excepted your looks and he is not complaining.Now if you were single and lonely and every guy you were interested in gave you a complex about you nose...I think you wouldn't be so quick to judge.
Old    stormrider            06-30-2005, 7:32 PM Reply   
Frankie, an obvious intellectual, is with Joe. Joe, would you say that it's true: opposites attract?

Frankie, great analysis by the way.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 7:35 PM Reply   

i guess you're right.
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       06-30-2005, 7:41 PM Reply   

Let me ask you this question. Many women, after having children have elected for cosmetic surgery due to the effects of breast feeding. Do you feel that these women are superficial or insecure? I've seen the effects breast feeding can have and don't blame women for enhancing themselves to look better.
Old    Frankie Flores Schmied (frankie_f)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-30-2005, 8:09 PM Reply   
the answer is in your post... "enhancing themselves to look better (on the surface)". they should be celebrating the fact that they are mommies and should dedicate their lives to their new found joys - that's where their happiness should lie. if it lies in a bag full of saline, then yes. if they think that it is worth dying and leaving their children motherless to "look better", then yes.
Old    Gerald (sloshake)      Join Date: Mar 2003       06-30-2005, 8:58 PM Reply   
Cosmetic surgery can also be viewed as just changing something about yourself you don't like. If it bothered me more that I only know english, I would go learn another language. But it doesn't. It bothers me that I can't do a 360, so I've taken lessons. And yes, I wasn't happy about my nose, so I had work done on that (in addition to some internal corrections for a deviated septum, so insurance took care of half).

To me, being superficial (and maybe this is my own definition) is judging someone by something that they have no control over. When I check out girls, I'm open to all ethnicities - something they don't have control over. But I'll admit it - a 300 lb girl does nothing for me regardless of personality. Yes, potentially there's a glandular problem, but realistically, the chance is pretty low.

Admittedly I'm not as much a breast man (more a butt guy), but if they look better one way than another, then let her have long as its not the HHH's in that earlier picture. YUCK!

And surgery's are getting safer all the time. How many women have developed cancer from surgerys in the past couple years vs 20 years ago? Are you saying Lasik surgery is not good either? People have been using glasses and contacts for decades and its not such a big deal, so is that surgery purely cosmetic?

(Message edited by sloshake on June 30, 2005)
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-30-2005, 9:14 PM Reply   
like glasses and contact lenses, lasik is corrective, last time i checked.

those that can't afford lasik wear glasses or contact lenses. those that can't afford contact lenses, buy a pair of glasses. (are contact lenses are more expensive in the long run vs. glasses?)
Old    matt (supraman)      Join Date: Jan 2002       06-30-2005, 10:07 PM Reply   
Lasik raises a great question. Seriously, how do you feel about that, Frankie?

Simply by natural process, vision degrades somewhat over time (earlier for some, later for others). Similarly, certain body parts may also slowly "degrade" over time (earlier for some, later for others).

So, the question is, is lasik somehow different than, say, breast augmentation. There are plenty of horror sites out there about what can go wrong with vision correction. Do you feel that people who opt to have their vision artificially enhanced are equally reckless as those that you've written about earlier?
Old    GettingOlder (magellan)      Join Date: Feb 2003       06-30-2005, 10:18 PM Reply   
This is all great conversation...

Anyone have any pics?
Old    Josh Brown (midwestrider)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-01-2005, 8:11 AM Reply   
Right on wife and I have had similar discussions recently. We just welcomed our first son 7 months ago and she is already complaining about the effects of breastfeeding. I tell her she is crazy, but in my opinion she does indeed have some self-esteem issues. I don't think she would ever actually go through with any sort of nip/tuck, but she has thought about it.

Think back 20 years ago when cosmetic surgery was still in its infancy. It was viewed as radical and extreme, it was not widely accepted. Today, however, in our "perfect" world created for us by Hollywood and the media, you have women signing up in droves to get that perfect look. I think it is ridiculous and I think it proves the degradation of our social values when, as Frankie put it, we value the superficial over what is inside the person. Why do you think anti-drepressants sell by the billions? Because the world is becoming a cold shallow place where people have forgotten what is important.

Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-01-2005, 9:18 AM Reply   
Frankie, sorry about the gender mixup. I do usually look at profiles but I didn't in this case.

Joe, I'm glad you have such a wonderful girlfriend. No offensive taken and vice versa I hope.
Old    Josh B (joshugan)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-01-2005, 9:23 AM Reply   
Well since this is now a thread about cosmetic surgery I'll throw in my .02:

Are luxury cars bad? Are pimped out boats bad? Is wearing clothes you think make you look good bad? All these things could be a problem if you became obsessive about them and spent too much money or ruined your life, etc. You could argue that Ferraris are dangerous due to all the power and speed and that there's something psychologically wrong with someone who wants one.

but I think a better example is braces. Why are braces just fine with everyone? Why is it okay to have cosmetic surgery done on one's teeth and no-one will say it shows a sign of a problem, but there's something wrong with a girl if she wants bigger breasts?

We like to look good and feel good about ourselves. I agree that I think many people should go about things as naturally as possible but I'm not going to fault the parents of a 14 year old, who can't quit eating, when they get their kid's stomach stapled. Nor am I going to fault a girl who wants bigger breasts, or straighter hair, or a tan, etc., etc.

Here's my story: I went to Poland for a few years and while there my digestive system went all screwy and I got acne BAD! Like the poor kid that every highschool has, who's face is one gross red mess. I hated it and I felt like crap! I got the digestive problem taken care of on my own without meds and I now eat healthier than anyone I know. But my face was scarred pretty badly. So when I got home I had laser surgery performed. There are still some scars but I feel a million times better. Should I have accepted my body?
Old    Melissa (psych3060)      Join Date: Sep 2002       07-01-2005, 9:41 AM Reply   
Josh, no you shouldn't feel bad. I think everyone has at least some part of them that makes that feel bad and how they chose to deal with it, is just that, their choice. If they know the medical, physical or emotional risks that go along with their decision and still wish to take those chances then it is completely up to that individual. We will never live in a society that completely accepts individuals for what is inside vs. what is outside, so there will always be that pressure to be picture perfect. If someone is able to be 100% happy with their physical appearance and not feel the pressure of society to be perfect then that is great and I hope that more people can get to that place, but for now most of us continue to feel the pressure to fit in and will have to live with the choices that we make whether right or wrong.
Old    Josh Brown (midwestrider)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-01-2005, 9:59 AM Reply   
I have to disagree with you Josh, braces are not on the same level as the invasive cosmetic surgery we have been discussing. Reread Frankie's physical risks associated with cosmetic surgery. How can you compare that to braces, what is the biggest medical complication with braces, kanker sores?

As for your situation with laser surgery for scarring, that was your decision and I hope it was the right one for you.

Of course we all want to be attractive to the opposite sex (and sometimes same, though that is a completely different topic), but playing the "society" card is a cop out. IMO our "society" is headed down a path of moral deprivation, sorry, but I don't really want to follow.

Old    Melissa (psych3060)      Join Date: Sep 2002       07-01-2005, 10:53 AM Reply   
Josh, it is great that you can be completely happy with yourself and what you were given. I wish I could feel the same, but honestly I am not. I would not consider plastic surgery for enhancement reasons, but if I suddenly became disfigured I might consider it for reconstructive reasons and it would be my choice whether right or wrong. Call me vain, but I don't know that I could walk around in society and not be bothered by people staring at me. I work with a child with a syndrome that disfigures her face. SHe is undergoing laser surgeries several times a year to fix it. I see her visably upset by the cruelty of other children on a daily basis. I do not question her or her mothers choices for trying to make her feel better about herself. Yes breast augmentation can be invasive, but so can the radiation and chemo that cancer patients undergo. I do not agree at all with breast augmentation, but do believe in an individuals choice to do what they feel is the right choice for them. It is your right to have an opinion on what someone else does, but it is not fair to judge someone when you don't know their reason for doing what they do.
Old    GettingOlder (magellan)      Join Date: Feb 2003       07-01-2005, 10:55 AM Reply   
I really don't feel comfortable giving my opinion on this topic until I see some pics.

Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       07-01-2005, 11:10 AM Reply   
Regarding cosmetic surgery, I appreciate the health concerns, yet I do not appreciate the harsh mental health associations.

If a woman has small saggy breasts, I don't see a problem with her filling them up.

If a woman has huge obscure breasts, I don't see a problem with her shrinking them up.

To each of these women, a relatively simple surgery is corrective and elective.

I feel Frankie's point of view is idealistic and not realistic.
Old    root (rootc)      Join Date: Aug 2002       07-01-2005, 11:27 AM Reply   
I thought I'd point out the obvious. Apples and oranges. Invasive cosmetic surgery to fix a diagnosed physical deformity vs. invasive cosmetic surgery to fix self-esteem.

Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       07-01-2005, 11:37 AM Reply   
"I feel Frankie's point of view is Idealistic and not realistic"

I feel the SAME way!!


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