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Old    blue_malibu            02-28-2005, 4:40 PM Reply   
What is a better tower speaker, the NVS Addiction or Skylon Deacon V?
Old    blue_malibu            02-28-2005, 4:44 PM Reply   
Here are some pics of them... Which ones are louder?
NVS Addiction
NVS Addiction
Deafcon V
Deafcon V
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-28-2005, 6:08 PM Reply   

That's about a $1500 question. Both come from good companies that stand behind their products. It seems that either is a good choice.

If you cannot get some good outdoor demonstrations for both speakers you could buy both, figure out which set is best for your needs, then return the others. Just be careful not to scratch anything. Couldn't cost more then $100 in shipping to be absolutely sure that you are not making a mistake.

Test drive before you buy. I doubt that any additional discussion we have here will give you a conclusive winner.

my 2 cents...
Old    blue_malibu            02-28-2005, 6:21 PM Reply   
I just want to make this easy and get the "better" speaker! Which one is it???
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       02-28-2005, 7:18 PM Reply   
I think they both lok awesome but really, how loud do you want your music? People start getting annoyed, I thnk its mostly a Statement having speakers like that!!! It just makes the boat look realy kewl
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-28-2005, 7:20 PM Reply   
i am going to go out on a limb and say both are pretty close and you cant go wrong with either..

lots of other things to condsider....

-replacement drivers
-marine wear and tear
-impedence & system intergation

hope that helps....
Old     (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-28-2005, 7:54 PM Reply   
You should buy the ones you like the most, install them (without scratching them, as said above). If they aren't what you are looking for, then send them back and go with the other set. If the second set isnt what you are looking for, than you are really picky.
Old    air_sv211            03-01-2005, 4:28 AM Reply   
Get one of each, then you will be the shizzzzeeeellll.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       03-01-2005, 9:17 AM Reply   

How can you compare 2 10 inch driver's (1010's) to 2 8 inch drivers (Reference)? Are you really comparing apples to apples? The choice seems obvious to me.

In this situation , I don't think there is a wrong choice. I'm sure you'll be impressed with whatever you choose.

(Message edited by acurtis_ttu on March 01, 2005)
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-01-2005, 10:57 AM Reply   
"I just want to make this easy and get the "better" speaker! Which one is it???"

This is the kind of post that irritates me for wasting my time giving kids advice when they obviously are just here killing time. This 19 year old kid is obviously not going to buy either of these systems based on this comment.
Old     (jeffreyala)      Join Date: Dec 2004       03-01-2005, 11:15 AM Reply   
Then the obvious answer would be "whatever speaker your mom and dad want to buy and put on their boat"........


Just joking around. :-)
Old    blue_malibu            03-01-2005, 3:08 PM Reply   
Hey Mikeski…

Well... For you info my rents gave my 100k to go spend on a wakeboarding boat and that is what I am doing… I just order a X-Star yesterday. Money is not the issue, all I want to get is the “best” and I am not wasting anyone’s time... I did not tell you to take 30 seconds out of your life to write…

“This is the kind of post that irritates me for wasting my time giving kids advice when they obviously are just here killing time. This 19 year old kid is obviously not going to buy either of these systems based on this comment.”

It’s ok to be jealous mikeski…
Old     (s4inor)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-01-2005, 4:11 PM Reply   
Adam, it's easy to compare the 10" drivers Eminance drivers that NVS uses to the 8" Image Dynamics drivers used in the Reference, here's an example:

In a concert setting (which is what Eminance drivers are designed for), you will ALWAYS see a horn covering high frequencies, a 10 or a 12 in the cab covering midbass, and a 15 or 18 long-throw covering sub-bass. The design of the Eminance 10 is NOT optimized for frequencies below 200Hz, simply because there are better tools available for covering that range.

The eight inch Image Dynamics used in the Reference Series are designed to play down to 50Hz, and to do so accurately.

Ryan, this is a tough comparison to make right now because the Reference Series is so new, not many systems are in use right now. Realisticaly, 80ft. behind the boat, there's no way you'll be able to hear the sound difference between these two speakers, and if you can, you're not focusing on your riding enough. Get which ever system YOU think combines the best features, quality, design and value, and then enjoy your tunes.

(Message edited by s4inor on March 01, 2005)
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-01-2005, 4:21 PM Reply   
Looking forward to seeing boat pictures posted in your gallery...

the jealous guy
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       03-01-2005, 4:33 PM Reply   
Jason, what is the sensitivity of the ID 8's at 50 hz? Proabbly mid 80's?? I doubt the rider would even hear frequencies that low @ 75'. 150-200 hz is all you can probably get that far. The surface area of the 10 , by design can move more air therefore project the sound further. And project the lower end of audible (150-200hz) frequencies out to the rider.
Old     (s4inor)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-01-2005, 5:29 PM Reply   
Adam, you're absolutely correct when it comes to the physical properties of each driver. My answer was addressing the fact that although traditional use dictates a 10 versus and 8 is an apples to oranges comparison, when you take into account the design differences between these drivers, that stereo-type is blurred.

And like you said, the lower end of the spectrum isn't going to be audible to the rider, so any advantage the Eminance might have will probably be lost.

Again, I think both of these systems will out play any traditional car audio driver system, so go with the setup that combines the best combination of qualities for YOUR needs, keeping in mind that sound performance proably won't factor into the decision.
Old     (buzz_grande)      Join Date: Mar 2004       03-01-2005, 7:57 PM Reply   
I should be picking up my boat tomorrow from the stereo dudes. Amongst the goodies, I will have a Zapco reference 750 going to my Defcon 4's. I can't wait to hear the whole system, but especially the Defcons.

Clubmike, Kevin, etc. You should hear me out on San V. Welcome to stop by and have a listen.

Like others have said, really can't go wrong with either the NVS or Defcons. Both are the best out there. Take a listen to them, and get which system you like better.
Old    blue_malibu            03-01-2005, 8:35 PM Reply   
awesome! Which ones will be louder?
Old     (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-01-2005, 8:41 PM Reply   
Ryan, if you want the hands down, no comparison, bar none, ridiculously loudest setup available, run FIVE individual Addictions on your tower.

The X-Star is a pretty big boat, perhaps the tower is wide enough to fit 6 individual Addictions?

Old    blue_malibu            03-01-2005, 8:44 PM Reply   
alright!!! FIANLLY SOMEONE ANSWERED MY QUESTION!!! How much is that going to cost me? Is there a phone number for NVS?
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-01-2005, 10:17 PM Reply   
only 5 will fit... but easily.
Joe, I thought you were going to be the first with 5 Addictions.
I gots ta say, that's waaaaay over the top.
Ryan, do you know where Lake Shasta is?
D out

(Message edited by nvsairwarrior on March 01, 2005)
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-02-2005, 12:08 AM Reply   

My guess is that the NVS 1010 will be slightly louder than the Deafcon V since they use a 2 inch voice coil and 10 inch cones. They Skylon Deafcon V Reference most likely will have better low end from 50 to 200 Hz which should sound better, especially near the boat (maybe not noticed at 80 feet back).

If SPL is all that matters at 80', then the NVS decision is right on. If deep bass is really important, then I would take a Deafcon V test drive before I would invest $1,600.

As soon as our demo boat installation is done, we will be borrowing Image Dynamics test gear to test both SPL and frequency at 80 feet. Both are very important. Most important is the listening test, which is quite subjective as you all know.

Old    blue_malibu            03-02-2005, 6:38 AM Reply   
Duane, i do not have any idea where Lake Shasta is...
Old    hyperryd            03-16-2005, 5:22 PM Reply   
How much power is recommended for each of these?
Old     (s4inor)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-16-2005, 5:28 PM Reply   
John, we recommend at least 250W RMS for each Deafcon V. Because they are wired at 2 Ohms, it should be pretty easy to find a two channel amp that is comfortable providing that much power.

If you're using a high quality amp, you can feed them quite a bit more power.
Old     (the_love_muscle)      Join Date: Mar 2004       03-16-2005, 6:57 PM Reply   
I think the Deafcon V's sound better. I like Quality over quantity. I heard the Deafcon V's at Surf Expo and was very impressed. Plus, I also have a new X-Star and think the carbon look really fits. I'm going to mount them this weekend, so I'll post a pic if you want.
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-16-2005, 7:23 PM Reply   
I haven't talked to you in a still trading boats?
In case you were wondering about the NVS recomended power, it goes like this:
Entity 808: 400 RMS @ 4 ohm
Entity 1010: 500 RMS @ 4 ohm
Addiction: 250-300 RMS @ 4 ohm
each is per channel.
Based on our previous conversations I know I don't need to mention that voice coil diameter is irrelavent to power rating or SPL at any given frequency. If you want to talk again about the "Beaming" phenomenen for larger diameter woofers, give me a call, I'd love to talk more about it.
Ryan, very nice new boat. Congratulations1 I'll be watching ESPN the end of the month.
Oh, and while I'm at it, the Eminence drivers that I use are capable of efficiency to 40 Hz. In fact, they are a common choice for Folded Horn subs...if you know pro audio you know what that is.
More to the point here, getting freqs out to a rider below 140 Hz is a big challenge. Sitting on a trailer in a parking lot or in a show room is no test if your objective is to determine sound reproduction characteristics for the rider.
D out
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-16-2005, 8:15 PM Reply   
We just finished the sound system on the Wakeside demo boat on Friday. We did extensive testing on the Deafcon V Reference with about 350 watts RMS per channel at 2 ohms. What we found is that 100 Hz is the best compromise between SPL, sound quality, and low-end frequencies. Any lower than 100 Hz you give up SPL and sound quality. However, I think the 100-140 Hz is very important when you get further away from the boat subwoofers.

I'm not the sound engineering wizard, but Eric the owner and head designer at Image Dynamics said that the diameter of the voice coil effects both SPL and low-end frequency. That is why I said before that I would guess that the NVS 1010 will win in pure SPL and that the Skylon Deafcon V will sound better at the lower frequencies.

The only way to prove that is to do the sound-off that we have suggested several times. Our boat is now ready for the competition. ID offered their measurement tools. The sound-off should be on the water at 80 feet.

Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-17-2005, 12:34 AM Reply   
Glad everything sounds good and you've finished your boat. Can you give us a little more in terms of "conditions" on your results? i.e. was the boat moving? if so was it in the water at 25 mph? please don't tell me you ride at like 18 mph.
I believe that the system you have created is targeting Sq near the boat and am confident that it does just that. Near meaning less then 50 feet. OK maybe 60 feet.
That is where we differ. The NVS systems have no interest in providing anyone at less then 50 feet with clean full range sound. NVS is all about the rider at 75+ feet @ 25 mph and it always has been...and probably always will. To think that one system will achieve the other does not understand the physics involved.
I believe that car audio does a pretty good job of providing the up close type of quality....and Image Dynamics is a leader in this area....and closer i.e car audio, ....but not further. Maybe you can help me out by giving me some Pro Audio equipment names that actually uses ID speakers in a concert setting, or any professional musician based equipment. Even the ID website says they do "Car Audio" nothing about Pro Audio at all. Where is it that ID makes Pro Audio stuff? I've missed it.
Maybe this conversation was inevitable but I have been rather humble and have let the listener be the judge so far. I really think that's the best approach, but if you want to take the gloves off that's fine. I'm down for whatever!
While changing the diameter of the voice coil will have an effect on the SPL of a given driver, it is only a minor part of the entire motor structure. If your advisor is telling you that VC diameter it is the most important element to spl then you need a different advisor. When it comes to lower freqs at a distance, cone diameter has a bigger role then voice coil diameter.
As far as "suggesting" a sound off, those are just words, why don't you actually have one? Throw up some cash for the winner! Specify the conditions and let everyone participate. Money talks and if you put some up, you'll have more people show up then you can imagine.
And as for action not talk, NVS will start it off with $250 bucks for the "Riders Choice" sound system. I'm sure the deeper pockets of Wakeside/Skylon can do better then that.
In the end I think it's great that creators of stuff feel passionate about the results they have achieved. To that I believe Mike and I are probably very similar....good job Mike!
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-17-2005, 5:28 PM Reply   
Hi Duane,

We are anxiously waiting to get our new boat on the river. We still need to complete our Optima batteries, auto isolator switch, and a couple of minor punch-list type items before we are ready. We do plan to do the testing on the water at 20 mph very soon. Our new 2005 Malibu VLX has the best wake at 19-20 mph. At 25 it would flatten out. Our old LSV had the best wake at 22-24 mph. Under 20 it wouldn't even plane right.

The system that Skylon, Image Dynamics, Wakeside created was specifically designed to target 80 feet back and at wakeboarding speeds. However, we purposely compromised max SPL slightly by using a 1 1/2 inch voice coil and 8 inch cones. Our goal was to improve the bass response below 150 Hz. We also wanted the sound as good as possible without getting harsh at the back of the boat (loud is fine). That was done by completely designing new HLCD and crossover. The sound quality on the Deafcon V Reference turned out great but still very loud at 80 feet back. We will test it on the water at 20 MPH very soon and then I can comment on that. Image Dynamics completely understands the physics of sound.

Yes, Image Dynamics is the leader in car audio competitions. However, that does not mean that their engineers do not understand sound in an open stadium setting or on a wakeboard tower. Image Dynamics has never focused on Pro Audio, but I'm sure that they could end up on top of that market too - it just isn't their target market. I never said that Image Dynamics used equipment that is being sold in the Pro Audio market. They totally know how to make any kind of HLCD or build any custom mid-bass driver like the one in the Deafcon Reference. As a matter of fact, the 8 inch Deafcon Reference mid-bass driver and the HLCD we designed from the ground up for a boat tower application - not a car!

I don’t want to battle with you at all. I want boat owners currently in the tower speaker system market to know what is new and what is different with the new Deafcons. If need be, I will defend any products that we offer against incorrect or incomplete information going around - like the ID Deafcon components being designed for cars (not true) and the reference only being good for 60 feet (not true).

What I said is that voice coil diameter combined with a bigger cone is more efficient. If your 1010 had a 10 inch cone with a 1 1/2 inch voice coil, it wouldn't be as loud or efficient as it is. The head engineer at ID said specifically that voice coil diameter combined with cone diameter will effect low end frequency and hence the Deafcon Reference with 1 1/2 voice coil with 8 inch cone will have a better low-end frequency and sound quality than the 2 inch voice coil with a 10 inch cone in the NVS, but not quite as loud. That is why we want to compare them in the real world.

I have never put NVS down in any way – they are designed to be very loud and they probably win in that category. To the contrary, I have repeatedly said that you did a great service to the wakeboard community with your innovative ideas of combining HLCD and Pro Audio components. You are not alone anymore and there are several differences that we have attempted to point out. Eventually we will have hundreds of Skylon Deafcon Reference owners out there who will chime in with their real world experiences. At that point, I won’t need to chime in anymore.

Wakeside has offered a sound-off at Shasta Lake or Lake Sonoma in Northern California since that would be half way between Discovery Bay, CA and our Clackamas, OR location. So far, nobody has agreed to do that. We fully intend to offer prizes and I think that Image Dynamics and Skylon may throw in some prizes too. Jason is working on some sound-off categories and "Riders Choice" should certainly be one of the categories. We also want to measure SPL and do a frequency chart at 80 feet on the water. We thought of a sound quality category and the sound quality at the back of the boat. We also wanted to include a style, fit, and finish category. If we only want to measure SPL at 80 feet, then we would probably pass since we know that Skylon will come in second in that category.

We believe that a wakeboard tower speaker system is way more than just the highest SPL at 80 feet, although that is also important.

You are obviously very passionate about NVS products and you should be very proud of what you have created, you deserve it.

In the same way, we are passionate about the new Skylon Deafcon Reference series and we have tried very hard to stay accurate, truthful, informative, and do fair comparisons.

You may know that we are one of the biggest supporters and a Gold Level sponsor of WakeWorld. We faithfully send them a check every month for three years now because we believe in community forums and boat owners talking to one another and helping each other. As a result, David Williams has welcomed us to participate in the forum by providing information from a manufacturers perspective since we are the largest retailer for most of the brands we sell. We always want to keep it fair.

Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-17-2005, 6:36 PM Reply   
hey guys that why i suggested a side by side comparison (same boat/same equipment) by a third party (yours truly who is a experienced audiophile/listener. ).

btw, would also suggest the nvs 808's since they are the closest driver complement to the skylon reference V's. not to mention, i "suspect" the crossover region of the 8" may be a smoother transition than the 10".

i have to disclose that i do run id seperates and subs in my car & boat...

btw, i did see the skylon reference v's 8" driver and it looked identical to a id v.3...

it is not a bad driver, but NO WHERE near the idq or the chameleon driver..

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 17, 2005)
Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-17-2005, 7:05 PM Reply   
When you guys are talking about a competition and offering prizes are you talking about anyone can enter? My Defcon V's just got here yesterday and I'll probably have them up by Saturday on my PCX 4125 for now. As soon as my PCX 2200 gets here (Should be Monday, but I am trying to arrange to pick it up sooner) I will be switching to it. I'll be putting about 400 watts RMS to each side. If the place is a reasonable travel for me, I'll show......
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-17-2005, 7:13 PM Reply   
Mike- the mid-bass driver may look the same as the id v.3, but Eric at ID tells me that it was designed specifically for Skylon utilizing a 1 1/2 inch voice coil and a poly cone. The basket may be the same.

Chad- where are you located? Sounds like you will have plenty of clean power.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-17-2005, 7:18 PM Reply   
may be a custom id v.3 but..

it is missing the intergrated surround of the idq (state of the art and would be great in a marine enviornment)


the state of the art fiber cone driver of the chameleon and the massive magnet (the tweeter based skylon models have the 6.5 chamelon driver)

it would have been nice to see a 8" chamelon or a 8" idq.

it is not a bad driver..but there a lot better from id..

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 17, 2005)
Old    hyperryd            03-17-2005, 7:25 PM Reply   
Sounds like there will be some pretty serious systems including Chad's and some of the NVS speakers at the Westside Spring Ride next month at Don Pedro. I think a sound off would fit right in with the schedule of the weekend and there will be a lot of WW members there to keep it honest. Mike and Duane, you guys should both come out there and bring the prizes with you. It really doesn't matter who wins that weekend because the exposure would be great for both of you and Skylon. Everyone will have a great time and we can argue the Ford/Chevy debate at the same time. Really I think both of these tower systems are awesome and I don't think you can convince everyone that one is the "Best". There will always be somebody that likes the other speaker better, but competition is healthy for the customer and breeds better products. All those in favor of a soundoff at the West Side Spring Ride, say Aye!
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-17-2005, 7:34 PM Reply   

the only "problem" (sorry) i see is the head unit...what will be used ?

also, are there any eq's in the system ? will the tone controls be flat ?

Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-17-2005, 7:37 PM Reply   
Like I said, I'm down.

Old    hyperryd            03-17-2005, 7:40 PM Reply   
You are overthinking it Mike, not every boat is going to have the same system anyways. Let's just let 'em rip and have some fun draining the blood out of our ears.
Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-17-2005, 7:54 PM Reply   
Mike (Wakeside)-
I am located in Turlock. When are you going to put the rest of the ID stuff up? I am looking to get two set of chameleons and an ID Max 12 as well. I don't know if I will have all that stuff in the boat or not by WSSR but I am going to try. The defcons will definitely be ready.

All told I will have:
1.)Sorry ass stock JBL deck (MB22 I think)
2.)PAC Overdrive line driver
3.)PCX 2200 (Tower) 400 watts RMS to each side
4.)PCX 4125 (Boat) 125 watts RMS to 4 speakers possibly 250 watts RMS if I get the chameleons in on time
5.)Hopefully... PCX 1500 (ID MAX)
6.)Couple of Blue Tops for good measure

I only say hopefully because of time constraints. I would also like to have a few capacitators as well.

That said, I am assuming the only thing that would matter is the tower set up. Shouldn't we be turning everything else off? That will be ready by next week. It is probably going to be hard to find two people running the exact same stuff so maybe we can find the most "Comparable stuff" and go with that. Like John said, there will be plenty of members to keep everything "Honest." I think I have said it before I am not looking to be the loudest out there, just some good freindly competition and I just want to get a comparison myself...

Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-17-2005, 9:46 PM Reply   
Chad, Sounds like a great system.

We are already an Authorized Internet Retailer for Image Dynamics. We can get the Chameleon's and the IDMAX 12's right away. We were waiting for the special Wakeside version of the Chameleon's but it will take another few weeks. They are exactly like the standard 6.5 inch Chameleon except poly cones and include the Skylon Deafcon II and III Reference grills since the Chameleon's don't come with grills.

We will call them CMS-62 and CMS-64. "M" is for Marine since the poly cones will hold up longer than carbon fiber in a wet environment.

If you want to go with standard Chameleons we can ship them out right away. Just give Jason Craveiro a call at 1-866-925-3743. He will get you the discounted pricing and the ship dates. We haven't sent out the press release yet that Jason from (MBO) joined Wakeside this year. He is heading up our boat category
and a new website that will be launched very soon.

If you use zero gauge battery cable to the amps and you keep the cables under 4 feet, you could eliminate the capacitors.

We will have the Optima group 31 and group 34 deep cycle blue tops very soon (a week or two). What's nice is that you can use the reward points on all this stuff.

So what is the exact date of the Westside Spring Ride? We would like to bring our boat so you guys can see and hear the Tru Technology amps as well.

We have two sets of Chameleons and two IDMAX 12's wired at one ohm so our boat speakers will be very similar.

Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-17-2005, 9:48 PM Reply   
not overthinking....some people listen for different things... .there will be a lot of information missing or present to a trained ear..

it is pretty darn easy to make a loud system that has poor sound quality....

it is a lot harder to make loud, high sound quality system.

it just doesnt make sense to use state of the art amps & speakers($10k - $15k system) with a waaayy sub par source unit.

EVERYTHING starts with the inital signal. if there is something missing or will then be amplified.....

in regards to the head unit...there is a lot going on to d/a conversion and pre-amp... there are very few head units that can do that (top of the line denon,clarion, eclipse)..

i dont wish to offend anyone...but marine head units are not up to par for a comparison..
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-17-2005, 9:51 PM Reply   
We used an Alpine head unit and it sounds very clean. It puts out 4 volts so you don't need a line driver. It also has in input for a IPOD and XM radio both of which can be controlled from the head unit. Only thing missing is the wired remote.

(Message edited by wakeside1 on March 17, 2005)
Old    hyperryd            03-18-2005, 5:37 AM Reply   
The WSSR is April 22-24 at Don Pedro Lake. The following thread is all about it. It is going to be sweet and this would fit right in.
Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-18-2005, 5:39 AM Reply   
Exact date on WSSR is April 22-24. If you look in the Wakeboarding events section, you'll find 2 threads on it. My amps will all have very short power runs, maybe I will skip the Caps. I had not heard this before.

And that should read Audio Control Overdrive line driver on number 2 on my list. Stupid fast typing last night.
Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-18-2005, 5:40 AM Reply   
Sorry for the repition, John beat me to it.
Old    hyperryd            03-18-2005, 5:41 AM Reply   
Clubmyke- Sorry for the overthinking comment, I was meaning you are taking it too seriously. No matter how hard we try, there will be some differences between two boat stereos and someone will call BS. I say get a couple of each and everybody have fun proving they are the best and in the end those that are in the market will make up thier own minds. This is still boating and we have to keep it fun.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2005, 7:03 AM Reply   
john, i am very, very, critical when it comes to buying audio gear(like $1600 tower speakers...these are suppose to be the best of the best)

there are a few people who have been to my house and heard my home system (it is pretty revealing-reference quality so that is where my "ear" is at. - i have been around high end gear for years and get asked to review high end gear before it goes to market(pros/cons) high end interconnects ($500 1 meter pair or $6000 speakers or power conditioner). my car based system is pretty good too.

i usually dont buy something unless i hear it in "my system" and hear how it interacts with my components and listening enviornment. i am always looking for system synergy and unless you have heard it, you havent had a "musical experience" may have heard music, but you missing out on the emotional communication ( the soul)

so for some this is a sound off for the loudest...for me it is a musical buying decision without hearing the gear in my system(if i go with the nvs i dont have to change out my zapco's and jl's. if i go with the skylons i have to change out all my amps except my sub amp(ie pain in a$$)

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 18, 2005)
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-18-2005, 10:55 AM Reply   
Mike (clubmyke),

I just got off the phone with Eric at Image Dynamics to get the accurate information regarding the Image Dynamics 8 inch mid-bass drivers used in the Skylon Deafcon IV and V Reference.

The new driver shares the same basket as the ID8 v.3. It also has the same cone profile as the ID8 v.3 but the poly material used is totally different. Eric said that this new driver is "more like an IDQ8 than anything else but there are improvements even over the IDQ8"

In this thread, Duane mentioned that Image Dynamics only knows car audio. I just learned from Eric that all he did was Pro Audio before he started Image Dyamics. What he did was to take the concepts of Pro Audio into the car audio arena. Now he is taking Pro Audio concepts into the marine environment which is different than car audio. He is not using car audio stuff for the Skylon products.

You really need to hear the combination of Tru Amps and Image Dynamics if sound quality is your main thing. I was completely blown away last Friday when I first heard it. We will try to get our boat to the WSSR but I can't commit to that yet. We are checking the calendar right now to see if that will work. Image Dynamics will provide all of the testing equipment including frequency measurement tools. They may even be able to send Matt who is one of their engineers.

The Deafcons sound absolutely great from about 80-100 Hz to 200 Hz where most other systems just can't perform. Most 8 inch systems can only do well to 250 Hz and 10 inch systems down to about 200 Hz. The Deafcons sound great down to 100 Hz! That is why I want a category for sound quality, not just SPL.

Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-18-2005, 11:11 AM Reply   

You mention you would have to change amps if you got the Skylon - I was wondering the same, but I don't think I would have to because I have the PPI PCX4125 which puts out 125Watts per channel at 4 Ohms. If I just didn't bridge it, I could simply send the 125 Watts to each set and get equivalent to 250 Watts (the recommended wattage) because the Skylon are running at 2 Ohms. FWIW, I would get stereo as well.

Am I correct? Wakeside Mike could maybe answer my question as well?

(Message edited by talltigeguy on March 18, 2005)
Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-18-2005, 12:09 PM Reply   
I have the same amp and called Directed Electronics and asked the same question. He said yes you could run that amp as you said. I just opted to have a little more power up there. I know they are efficient, but 250 watts to drive 2 8's and the horn just seemed a little low to me. When I recieved them the manual actually said that they are rated at 400 rms 600 peak.
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-18-2005, 12:21 PM Reply   

You are totally correct. The PPI PCX4125 puts out 250 watts X 4 at 2 ohms (it probably puts out more like 300 watts X 4 since most good amps are under rated). That is the perfect amount of power for the Deafcon V Reference.

You can then use the other 250 watts stereo at 2 ohms for the boat speakers. Two pair of Image Dynamics CXS64 Chameleons (4 ohm each) wired at 2 ohm can handle 300 watts RMS per side all day long.

That would be very similar to what we did in our boat except we used the Tru T03-4.150 amplifier.

Your PPI PCX4125 looks like a great amp and is a great value.
Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-18-2005, 12:24 PM Reply   

I gotta ask, why is it that you rate them at 250 rms on your site and 400 in the manual? Not complaining, but just wondering about the descrepancy?
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-18-2005, 12:39 PM Reply   
We put 250 rms on the site to be conservative. I discussed this with Image Dynamics and based the rating on the fact that not all amplifiers are the same quality. Many boat owners drink on their boats and the more they drink the more volume they need to hear the music. If the amp is not clean (usually caused by under sized power supply resulting in inadequate voltage) then you will blow out the speakers.

If on the other hand you have a very high quality amplifier like the Tru amps (PPI may be in this category but I don't know), then the Deafcon V Reference can handle way over 250 watts RMS per side. Eric and Matt at ID think they could handle in the 400-500 watt range give an ultra clean amp.

We will always show it at 250 watts RMS per side going forward to protect our customers. Brave souls with lots of money for ultra high-end amps can try 400-500 watts per side at their own risk.


Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-18-2005, 1:17 PM Reply   
Thanks for the reply, I had already spoke to Eric at ID myself at the suggestion of Jason to make sure that the 400+ rms I would be putting to it with the PPI and he said that it would be okay
Old    chavezychavez            03-18-2005, 1:47 PM Reply   
Wow, a whole lot of tech talk, but this does nothing for the average consumer.

My take:

NVS Entity: unbelievable sound at 65,75,85, hell 1/4 mile. Clear, crisp and audible.

NVS Addiction: unbeleivable sound at 5,10,15,20,25,35,45,55,65,75,85. Couldn't tell you beyond that. Same result: Clear, crisp, and audible.

Skylon: not my cup of tea for a host of reasons.

Wakeside, I know your uncle/relative/whatever runs Skylon, which is cool and its understandable why you are all rah rah Skylon.


I HIGHLY recommend to all that are in the market for this type of tower system that they demo Duane's products. Meet him in person and hear his systems once and you will understand why so many rave about them.
Old     (s4inor)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-18-2005, 2:03 PM Reply   

I think you've made a valuable point in that each person needs to make the decision for themselves.

Just one question, have you ever heard the Deafcon Reference Vs?
Old    chavezychavez            03-18-2005, 2:30 PM Reply   
Nope, like I mentioned, Skylon's products are not my cup of tea, so even if they were OMFG good, I still wouldn't recommend them.

Given their specs, they probably sounds great. My argument to wakeside is simple: if the NVS wins the SPL contest, it wins period given that it is loud & clear, which we all know for fact it is. His argument that the Deafcon will sound better at lower frequencies is moot as far as I am concerned - the rider can't tell the difference anyhow.

Doesn't really matter - buy whatever you like best. I still stand strong on my opinion that I would recommend that all potential buyers meet the man in person and hear his stuff. Half of the sale IMO is the fact that you are dealing with a guy who is passionate about his work, and not in it to get rich.
Old     (keithro)      Join Date: Dec 2004       03-18-2005, 2:41 PM Reply   
may be a custom id v.3 but..

it is missing the intergrated surround of the idq (state of the art and would be great in a marine enviornment)


the state of the art fiber cone driver of the chameleon and the massive magnet (the tweeter based skylon models have the 6.5 chamelon driver)

it would have been nice to see a 8" chamelon or a 8" idq.

it is not a bad driver..but there a lot better from id..

mike (clubmyke)-One thing to keep in mind is that weight was a big consideration for the design of the Deafcon Reference Series. Going with a big magnet subwoofer is silly on a tower speaker.

(Message edited by keithro on March 18, 2005)
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2005, 9:35 PM Reply   
keith.... i do agree with you - going with a big, big magnent sub is silly on a tower..

HOWEVER, the 8" idq has a average size going with a id 8" or a chameleon makes a lot of sense...chances are they werent used because of increased cost - btw, the magnent of the id3 is really small..

btw, enclosed are pics of the "upgraded" idv3 driver...i do confess it looks exactly the same and is even in a idv3 box..

imo ( take it with a grain of salt- the nvs may use a better driver)

dont get me wrong... it is a good product ( i have heard the iv's) but i think they can be A LOT better considering the source of the drivers..

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 18, 2005)
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2005, 9:59 PM Reply   
tailgateguy- you may want to make sure your ppi will run a 2 ohm load when bridged(i dont think it will- very few amps do)

my jl 300/4's, jl 300/2's, zapco refernce 350's WILL NOT RUN BRIDGED into a 2 ohm load only a 4 ohm load..

so to run the skylons v's, it would require a couple zapco 500 monoblocks(balanced) or a zapco 750 stereo amp or a couple kicker zr series (good amps on the cheap). me selling my beloved zapco's or jl's and replacing them...
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-18-2005, 10:16 PM Reply   

I'm afraid you may not have understood my description of the amp's properties. It sends 125 Watts per channel. If I were to use it WITHOUT bridging it, the speaker unit would see 250 Watts, or around the recommended power.

The PPI pcx4125 actually is designed to put out 500 watts when bridged, and I believe it cannot do so to a 2 ohm load, but this would be ideal to power a pair of NVS 1010's.
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-19-2005, 12:19 AM Reply   

As I stated above, the PPI PCX4125 puts out 250 watts X 4 at 2 ohms (it probably puts out more like 300 watts X 4 since most good amps are under rated). Two of the four channels have enough power for a pair of the Deafcon V Reference since they are wired at 2 ohms.

You can then use the other two channels at 250 watts wired at 2 ohms for the boat speakers.

Since the Deafcon IV and V are wired at 2 ohms, the amp puts out double the power than at 4 ohms. The PCX4125 is designed to easily handle a 2 ohms load.

Talltigeguy, IMO you already have the perfect amp for either the NVS or the Deafcon Reference. You will just bridge it for the NVS or use the front 2 channels for the two pairs of boat speakers with the Skylon Deafcon. No need to buy more amps.
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-19-2005, 12:23 AM Reply   
Just for a little clarity regarding the PPI 4125, my manual says bridged to 2 channels it will provide 500 RMS at 4 ohms, not 2 ohms. Yes this is an ideal amp for the NVS Entity 1010's or 808's for that mater. But is NOT a 2 ohm stable amp bridged to 2 channels.
Facts based on study:
-Quality only takes a second seat when the volume is not enough to be heard.
This was reproduced at will at the Pleasanton boat show. NVS Addiction vs NVS Entity 1010.
Lastly, knowing and doing are not synonomous.
D out

Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-19-2005, 12:31 AM Reply   

You didn't read my post correctly - look again. You would only bridge that amp for the NVS since the NVS needs more power and the NVS is wired at 4 ohm.

I know that the 4125 is not stable at 2 ohm when bridged.

For the Skylon Deafcon IV or V Reference, you would leave this amp as 4 channels and not bridge it. You then only need 2 of the 4 channels for the Deafcon's. The other 2 channels are available to be used for the boat speakers. I said that above.

Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-19-2005, 12:35 AM Reply   
No worries, I wasn't addressing your statement, only those thinking that the 4125 might be stable at 2 ohms bridged to 2 channels.
Old    doubleup1080            03-19-2005, 1:59 AM Reply   
I think now would be a good time for me to chime in. I am currently running a 4 channel crossfire vr804 amplifier. I have two of my boat speakers wired in parallel on one channel and the other two on the other channel. On one of the rear channels I have a deafcon v wired parallel and on the other channel I have the other deafcon v wired in parallel. My amplifier can only be bridged to 4ohms like a majority of the amps out there (so no bridging to 2ohms for me). However, the way I have my system and the way wakeside mike is pointing out will work perfectly fine. So, I'm putting out 250 x 4 at 2 ohms with no problems at all. The exact same can be done with the ppi pcx-4125. Hope this makes sense to everyone.
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-19-2005, 11:52 AM Reply   
Thanks Brandon, you said it more clearly than I did.

By the way, how does the system sound?
Old     (forwaken)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-19-2005, 8:28 PM Reply   
I just got back from hooking mine up to 2 channels of my PCX 4125 (250 watts to each side), and I am IMPRESSED. In all honest I have never heard the NVS's in person so I can't give a fair comparison. I have heard 6 infinity kappa 6.5's on twice as much of the same amp (All four channels versus the 2 that I am running now) 4 6.9's (Polk and Infinity Kappa) on JL amps and these, I can tell you, come no where near the level of sound the V's put out. I didn't get a chance to get a pull behind because the weather here sucks right now. They put out a very full, loud, clear sound way back there and there is no noticeable difference going out side to side (BIG difference from my previous set up). The sound in the boat itself as Mike has said is also really good. My 6.5's before, were peircing to the ears inside the boat unless the bimini was up. When played tonight there was no bimini up and at first my 12 was shut off and the sound was deep as if I had the 8's inside the boat. This is all I can write for now cause I have to go to work. I hope to get to ride behind these things soon, especially with the new amp when it gets here on monday (PCX 2200-400 watts to each side.

Old     (cbrown)      Join Date: Jan 2004       03-21-2005, 6:44 PM Reply   
I ordered the deafcon IVs last week and had a question about setting the High pass filter on my amp. Do I need to set it to 100hz or higher/lower? I am not positive on what frequencies it is going to run with the Mid Bass and the horn. Any help will be appreciated.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-21-2005, 8:45 PM Reply   
Most of these perform best with the amp set in high pass at 100hz.
Old     (cbrown)      Join Date: Jan 2004       03-21-2005, 10:11 PM Reply   
Thanks Mike that is what I figured but I wanted to make sure. I am trying to get everything figured out before the speakers and the actual boat arrive.
Old    whitechocolate            03-22-2005, 8:18 AM Reply   
Holy crap. I just got finished reading this whole thread. I gotta say, Im impressed. People are taking it to the next level for sure. Its good to see as long as it brings us together. Its cool to see Duane and Mike have respet for each other and there product's, Come summer time we wont be wasting energy time battling people against each other on whats louder or cleaner we will be out playin some tune's on the water, Wooo Hooo.
Old     (buzz_grande)      Join Date: Mar 2004       03-23-2005, 12:02 AM Reply   

I agree. It is good to see all this information passed along. Props to Duane and Mike for their input (and great products). Top two guys from the top two speaker companies out there. One system is not necessarily better than the other, but it it just which one YOU like. Just like the ongoing "best boat" stuff. Demo and get the one you like.
Old    houstonperson            03-23-2005, 6:11 AM Reply   
Man so much tech stuff here trying to soak it in. It all sounds good, but the $$$$$$$$$$ - wow it adds up!
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-23-2005, 7:46 AM Reply   

A very good value this year would be two sets of Boss B69's. They look great and Boss lowered the price per pair to $449 with polished finish at no extra charge! Last year a polished B69 was almost twice that price. Boss took one speaker system, found ways to lower production cost and they lowered their own margin in order to offer a value point tower speaker system. I was impressed with the $449 price. I'm not sure that you could build it yourself for this price even if you had all the tools, skills, and didn't value your own time.

Two sets of these would sound great but they would still not measure up to NVS or Skylon Deafcon Reference III, IV, or V. However, much easier on the pocket book.
Old     (99air)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-23-2005, 8:38 AM Reply   
Wouldn't a person be better off with a pair of evids instead of 2 or 4 cans?

Old     (michale)      Join Date: May 2004       03-23-2005, 9:10 AM Reply   
kenw (99air)
It depends on what is inside the cans. Do a search on "evids" on this board. They sound ok but nothing like the above mentioned speakers
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-23-2005, 9:15 AM Reply   
I feel that four 6x9s and properly powered/wired Evids are comparable. Evids are not much to look at so the Boss' might be worth it if looks are a factor, however a single 1010 will blow away either and it's the same price as the Boss if you can find somebody to split a pair. In my opinion the single Entity 1010 is just about the best bang for the buck, just behind the Evids, too bad the Evids are so goofy looking.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       03-23-2005, 10:01 AM Reply   
I totally agree with mike, he summed it up good. I've owned 4-6.5's (fosgates) in cans, a pair of evids, and run a single 1010, as well as a pair. FYI last weekend, I forgot to turn one of the 1010's on, and it took me 2 sets behind the boat to notice that it was off. The only way I noticed was that the light on the dash was off.
Old    houstonperson            03-24-2005, 12:25 PM Reply   
Ok, I have decided to not spend any money on sound and have the perfect solution. I will simply drive my boat behind Adams. Adam, skip work next Tuesday, we want to spend the entire day on the Trinity!


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