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Old    footin_farley            02-23-2005, 9:38 PM Reply   
All the discussion on these boards regarding MasterCraft versus Malibu are very entertaining. I would like all the Malibu enthusiasts to answer this question. If Malibu is equal to MasterCraft then why is the average dealer margin on a MC ~18% and the average dealer margin on a Malibu ~35%?

It seems to me that boats of equal quality and workmanship would have a similar manufacturer's cost. Dealers would in turn be able to offer each boat on its own merit, rather than what really motivates a dealer and that is ...MONEY and most importantly how much they can make of it on each boat. If your business was to sell boats and you could make twice as much selling one over the other, what would you do? I guarantee boat dealers will be all over this post, but it is accurate and unbiased.

The bottom line is that all boats have their own inherent problems. People expect quality similar to that of a car but that is virtually impossible due to inferior R&D and quality control budgets.

Malibu makes a quality boat, as does Correct Craft, after that there is a bit of a drop off. However, they are all looking up at MasterCraft in terms of overall quality, workmanship and value.

The numbers don't lie.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-23-2005, 9:47 PM Reply   
very interesting point.....

mind if i ask where the numbers came from on the "why is the average dealer margin on a MC ~18% and the average dealer margin on a Malibu ~35%?

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 23, 2005)
Old    footin_farley            02-23-2005, 9:53 PM Reply   
I used to work for a boat dealer.
Old    stillstandin            02-23-2005, 10:04 PM Reply   
I do not own either one. I was just at the boat show with four other guys (one owns a mastercraft) all of us were blown away by how much nicer, spacious and just better overall quality the Malibu's were over the mastercraft. Not trying to get involved in a war, buy I'm buying a Malibu. I got underneath the seats, and looked everywhere that you could not see on both boats.....Sorry dude, but seriously, mastercraft is extremly overrated..
Old    footin_farley            02-23-2005, 10:08 PM Reply   
I don't think you are making a mistake buying a Malibu, that was not my point.
Old    hyperlitenerd (hyperlitenrd)      Join Date: Jan 2003       02-23-2005, 10:22 PM Reply   
We got a bu lsv over a x-30. the x-30 is 10k more equally equiped. The malibu had more function. Alot of small stuff, well some not so small. The captins chair could spin all the way to face the other people in the wrap around. Malibu had a larger wrap around seating. my little brother reminds me that we have 21 cupholders when you have the table in. The tower is much easier to fold down, a one person job if needed. The seating felt better to me. It has the wedge, which lets me further define the wake to how me and my friends like it. The retractable pylon was a big plus. but thats just what I think.
Old    GettingOlder (magellan)      Join Date: Feb 2003       02-23-2005, 10:26 PM Reply   
Hang on... I have to grab a beer and some popcorn so I can watch this thread become absolutely nasty.

Bring it on!
Old    footin_farley            02-23-2005, 10:27 PM Reply   
Helping me prove my point that there is more margin in a Malibu ("$10K less equally equipped"), thus proving its quality and workmanship is inferior.

No one has answered my question, you are all too busy justifying your purchase. If you read my earlier post I am not saying Malibu is a bad purchase.
Old    Romi (romi)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-23-2005, 10:31 PM Reply   
The numbers you state would be hard to verify. I work for a manufacturer and margins among competition is not known normally. But you could have the inside info. My best guess to the question would maybe ESOP... if it is then Correct Craft would have a high "dealer" margin as well. There is a lot to say about an ESOP.
Old    footin_farley            02-23-2005, 10:37 PM Reply   
ESOP? Employee Stock Option Program??

What would that have to do with this discussion?

The numbers are verifiable if you work for a dealer because you see what your costs are on each boat.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       02-23-2005, 10:48 PM Reply   
I agree that the disparity in those numbers seems pretty out there, but I'm just basing that on the smell test. I have no direct knowledge to back it up.

However, I can say that just because a boat costs less to produce, doesn't necessarily mean that it's an inferior quality boat. If I tried to build a quality inboard on par with Malibu and MasterCraft in my garage, it would probably cost me several hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so and I doubt that the quality would even be close to what those companies produce. The reason that they can do a better job for less is efficiency.

Again, playing devil's advocate, do you know the margin on each boat for the manufacturer? Assuming your numbers are correct (and again I have to express some doubt), is it possible that MasterCraft's mark-up to its dealers is 35% while Malibu's mark-up to its dealers is 18%? Then you're looking at the same cost to produce each boat, but a different distribution of margin.

P.S. I realize those percentages don't really jibe since they are based on different amounts, but you get the picture.
Old    bobbymucic            02-23-2005, 10:50 PM Reply   
Aren't you confusing dealer cost vs. manufacturer's cost?
I don't follow your logic...

...
"If Malibu is equal to MasterCraft then why is the average dealer margin on a MC ~18% and the average dealer margin on a Malibu ~35%? "

If your statement are true about margin, and why they can charge more..
The simple answer is:
because they can


The market supports the cost.
..
"Helping me prove my point that there is more margin in a Malibu ("$10K less equally equipped"), thus proving its quality and workmanship is inferior."

..
because there is more margin does not mean anything. SUVs make more money than trucks for manufacturers and dealers. Materials and procedures are not much different. Another example, many Toyota and Lexus models are on similar platforms...Lexus is much more expensive and creates more profit. Does that mean it is made of inferior workmanship?

To be fair, I may be biased since I own a vlx. However, my purchase was heavily influenced by interior layout.


Another good example is Sanger...
They build great boat. Any mechanic will tell you how well built they are. However, Sanger cannot charge Malibu, CC, or Mastercraft prices yet..they are not competitive at that price due to the market (people pay for the name).

If a used sanger V215 was around, I would have considered it as a better buy then my vlx.






Old    Romi (romi)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-23-2005, 10:54 PM Reply   
I think will join SoCalrider on this one...

Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-23-2005, 11:14 PM Reply   
Better businesses always make more money.

Malibu vs. M/C what a waste of time, buy what makes you happy and bash the rest.

Drink up.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-23-2005, 11:18 PM Reply   
this is a dumb thread.
Old    jmo52            02-23-2005, 11:20 PM Reply   
Malibu, Mastercraft. Who care's. their both kick a$$ boats. For that matter all new boats are cool. People are always gonna disagree.Man some people will choose one brand over another because it has more cup holders.These threads always turn into a pissing match.
Old    Kevin K (supra)      Join Date: Aug 2002       02-23-2005, 11:37 PM Reply   
What your saying is that on AVERAGE that all Malibu dealers are making 35% margins. So if a weaker dealer in lets just say South Dakota(no offense) is making just 20% on every Malibu sold(by the way great job)and a stronger dealer, just to average it out makes 50% mark up.. I must say that I doubt your numbers are correct. Lets be a little more realistic when stating such a strong fact... Malibu as well as MC dealers make on average the same margins.. It depends on the time of year,closeouts,non currents,current hot models etc... Just keep buying boats and keep the economy going. I will take a beer now...
Old    Nick Heckerson (kstateskier)      Join Date: May 2002       02-24-2005, 12:23 AM Reply   
Have you ever seen MasterCrafts ad budget compared to Malibu? MC spends a lot of money on advertising, which in turn ups the cost to dealers I would assume.
Old    Timothy (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-24-2005, 4:50 AM Reply   
sounds like waterlover used to work for a MC dealer. Also, his high level of concern here indicates a need to justify overpaying for his boat.
Old    ss_lxi            02-24-2005, 5:51 AM Reply   
Mastercraft is a good boat, they have just become way over priced. I think the "name" has something to do with it. I have always wanted to be a Mastercraft owner and when the time came I ended up with a Malibu. For me the the Mastercraft just didn't seem as nice on the inside as the Malibu.
They are both quality boats and one is not any better than the other as is Correct Craft and Supra. It all come down to personal preference.
Hey Waterlover, I thought you would like to know
that Malibu out sold Mastercraft 4 to 1 at our local boat show.
Old    jzwake            02-24-2005, 6:00 AM Reply   
As many said, a less expensive boat does not mean a less quality boat. Maybe Malibu has streamlined their Production much better then MC. And, that number for BU is incorrect (at least for 05) if you are talking dealer margin, as per my insider knowledge. Either way, going by MSRP is worthless as MSRP is part of the biz tactics of the manufacture, look at selling prices. An X-2 is normally sold for slightly more then a VLX when equally equiped.

it doesn't matter anyway because a Nautique is SO head and shoulders above everything else, as proved with a 3rd JD power award.

ps: that was a joke.

(Message edited by jzwake on February 24, 2005)

(Message edited by jzwake on February 24, 2005)
Old    air_sv211            02-24-2005, 6:05 AM Reply   
I used to be a MasterCraft owner, now I am a Correct Craft owner. I will never return to the dark side.
Old    Kraig Macwhinney (kdm)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-24-2005, 6:23 AM Reply   
No offense, but I think some have missed the boat!!! First, I have a 03 VLX. I love the boat!! If I were to buy a new boat, I would seriously look at matercraft for the simple fact is that their warranty smokes malibu's warranty. I believe part of the reasons you pay higher prices for the mastercraft is because of the great warranty, at least in 05. I believe that correct craft used to have the best warranty, but not in 05. Mastercraft has it hands down. My 2 cents
Old    jzwake            02-24-2005, 6:59 AM Reply   
I dunno, CC has a 5 year transferable (one time) warranty for 05'.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-24-2005, 7:12 AM Reply   
also, cc covers the entire motor (major and minor) for 3 years vs. bu(3 year major,1 year minor)

what is the mc warrarnty ?
Old    zboomer            02-24-2005, 7:39 AM Reply   
Malibu's warranty on engine is the standard Indmar warranty. Define "minor" and what is not covered?

According to the Indmar warranty what is not covered is hoses, pump impeller, and annodes, starter if damaged by submersion, etc. The rest is 36 months, no hour limit.

Unless another manufacturer has their own warranty, this is the standard Indmar warranty. Malibu warranty lists NO parts exclusions on the powertrain, except maintenance items.

Malibu posts their warranty on their web site, as does Indmar on theirs. I've read both and just don't see this 3/1 information.

I've seen you post this data (3/1) numerous times, but where are you getting this data?
Old    Kevin R Baugh (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-24-2005, 7:53 AM Reply   
That is easy question to answer. The malibu margin is NOT 35%......period end of story
Old    Chris Brown (cbrown)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-24-2005, 8:52 AM Reply   
As stated earlier the Malibu margin is not 35% nor any where near that. Also what are the details on MCs new warranty. Their motor warranty is going to be the same basic Indmar policy but what is new about hull, etc. I looked on their website but could not find anything.
Old    bambamski            02-24-2005, 8:53 AM Reply   
I don't think it's really worth getting into as you won't convince MC or Malibu "owners" one way or the other.

I remember shopping for boats years ago and we were talking to the cobalt dealer and he said something that I've always remembered. "Just because a boat has a nice interior don't take for granted that the rest of the boat is built the same. He also said "too many boat companies throw most of the cost of building their boats into what you can see and not enough into what you can't."

Have you ever really looked at the manufactures brochures? Most of the companies have really pretty DRAWINGS of how their boats are made. Maybe one page, max two. MC has about 8 pages of actual pictures of how their boats are made. Their website goes throught the build process as well with acual pictures. They want you to know the stuff you can't see is as well built as the stuff you can see. Is there a reason Malibu doesn't do that? I don't know.

Malibu made it's name by building good affordable boats. Someone in a prior post said when talking with a Malibu engineer they said they've closed that gap in recent years. There's still a gap. Do they mold their seats in yet or are they still bolted in? The most popular saying from all the rival salesguys is the way their motor mounts are bolted through their hollow stringers. When I asked the Malibu sales guy that question he said they've never had a problem with the motor mounts. Ok, so is that the best way to do it or just the cheapest?

You can't "look" at a boat at a boat show. There's no way, and if you look under the seats, I'm sorry but that doesn't consitute a once over in my books. Maybe that's what you think digging into things means, I'm a little more thorough.
Old    zboomer            02-24-2005, 9:23 AM Reply   
Malibu will happily take photos of your boat being manufactured, at any step of the process. You can also tour the factory and watch at any time. They are proud of their process, not trying to hide it.

How many others will do this, and show everything that goes on? Can you get photos of your own MC being built in the factory? If so, I've never seen anybody post any.

Malibu's "hollow stringer" as MC likes to call it is their "FibECS" Fiberglass engine chassis system. The end result is the engine is through bolted with eight bolts, to this fiberglass "hollow" chassis that runs the length of the boat. The advantage is your wiring, and air flows through the hollow chassis. It's also so rigid that rarely, if ever does the engine alignment have to be adjusted.

I guess it's a nice invention, or a bad one depending on if you don't do it the same way.

Zero failures since it was invented over 24,000 boats ago, so kinda hard to fault it, regardless of MC's putting it down. It's also warranted for life.

If there's now a gap in '05, it's a gap of MC being behind Malibu, not the other way around.
Old    bambamski            02-24-2005, 9:38 AM Reply   
Michah

It's all opinion. I have to laugh at someone above saying that Malibu out sold MC four to one. I mean come on, how did he get those reliable facts of his?

After seeing and going through the V-ride there's no way I'm ever going to be convinced that Malibu is ahead. The V-ride was a joke. Most of the I/O's were finished better than it.
Old    Jason Pribyl (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-24-2005, 9:56 AM Reply   
There are posts from someone on here of one of the first '05 X2s(his) being built that MC sent him. I would say the quality is similar but then again I didn't take my claipers and fiber optic camera with me when I check them out earlier this year. The one cool option Bu has over MC is the heated drivers seat, wish MC would add that
Old    matt (supraman)      Join Date: Jan 2002       02-24-2005, 10:33 AM Reply   
Malibu makes a quality boat, as does Correct Craft, after that there is a bit of a drop off. However, they are all looking up at MasterCraft in terms of overall quality, workmanship and value.

The numbers don't lie.


The information given and insinuated in this thread is fantasy.

It is true that the numbers don't lie.

Using the SSI numbers* through Q3 2004 (the most recent available), it is a fact that Mastercraft was NOT the top seller last year. In fact, they haven't been #1 since 2002. The real story in wakeboarding has been other wakeboarding manufacturers coming on strong while the some of the "Big 3" slip.

Loveswater - do you want to tell everyone who the only "Big 3" brand to grow in 2004 was?

* - For those not familiar with SSI - Statistical Surveys, Inc. - SSI is most known for its work in some other transportation fields as a reseller of registration data for things like RVs. They maintain a separate location focusing on the powerboat industry. SSI uses quarterly registration data from state agencies to generate reports ranging from overviews to almost infinite detail at the county level. Their detailed reports are used by builders to see how their brand (and their dealers) are doing in specific areas and as planning tool. Almost all their work is done with industry firms and they keep a pretty low profile (they already know their customers and their customers know them). Occasionally, one of their quarterly or annual overviews of specific segments (ski boats, fiberglass boats, aluminum boats, etc) is printed as an article in the trade magazine Soundings Trade Only. -- taken from www.rbbi.com
Old    bambamski            02-24-2005, 11:33 AM Reply   
So selling the most boats means you build the best quality boat?

Someone better tell Cobalt that Bayliner builds a way better boat!

I was going to sell my Ford and buy a BMW. I guess I don't have to now because Ford sells more cars than BMW and are therefore better?
Old    wickedwakes (sjmedic)      Join Date: May 2004       02-24-2005, 11:34 AM Reply   
Hey Waterlover...How much is the Alternator for a 2001 Camaro? AND How much is an alternator for a 2001 Corvette? Same alternator, same manufacturer, $150 dollar difference. Your theory of higher price meaning higher quality is irrelevant and naive. Just the simple fact that you worked for a dealer (presumably as a salesman) eliminates you from cogent and unbiased opinions. Customer satisfaction is not based solely on interpretation of overall quality, but functionality and comparable usage. To compare a 2005 X-star to a 2005 VLX is absurd. If $75,000 is justifiable (which it is not), then using your logic, the X-Star should be the most functionally superior boat on the water. Obviously....its not. The majority of new boat purchases are made by word of mouth, good salespeople, and customer loyalty to the product line. Running a close second is research by the purchaser. I would venture to guess that people who do their research and buy a boat based on fact alone.....will buy the best product at the best price.....Sorry, but the top 3 growth manufacturers(as mentioned above) does not include Mastercraft.
Hopefully the question you asked in the first post has been answered by most people who responded. If not, maybe you need to ask a different question.
Old    bambamski            02-24-2005, 11:40 AM Reply   
I'm bored here at work and find this whole thing kind of fun.

Howie, lets reverse the situation. The 2005 VLX is now $75 grand and the X-star is 60 grand. How many people will buy the VLX over the X-star???

People are buying the more expensive X-star over the VLX but would the opposite happen. I'm thinking not, or Malibu would have done this already.
Old    Kraig Macwhinney (kdm)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-24-2005, 12:57 PM Reply   
In regards to my statement about Mastercrafts warranty, I was refering to one aspect. The engines warranties are pretty much the same. Where I was impressed with mastercraft was the lifetime warranty on gelcoat. Stress cracks are an issue with any boat. If you put a tower on a boat, there is ALWAYS be a chance for stress cracks. I have seen a lot of boats that have some type of stress crack(ALL BRANDS INCLUDED). I think that this is a bold step by Mastercraft. Malibu and CC have to step up to the plate. Again, my 2 cents...
Old    matt (supraman)      Join Date: Jan 2002       02-24-2005, 1:03 PM Reply   
Pat -- I can't tell if we're on the same page or not. I totally agree that highest price does not equate to best quality. As some others on this board have said before "You never get more than you pay for and you don't necessarily get what you pay for either." Price is a poor primary indicator of the total quality you are receiving.

Now to item #2 -- does top sales mean you're the best? Again, no, it doesn't. I felt like Loveswater was saying the numbers clearly illustrate that MC is tops. I just wanted to point out that isn't correct -- at least not by sales units or marketshare. However, I'm not supporting his theory that the top seller is inherently the best boat.

Finally, as I wrote, I do believe that mid-size companies that are quickly gaining markershare are a significant story in wakeboarding. Heck, if you take the Skier's Choice offering (Moomba + Supra) they already sell more than Correct Craft. In spite of what you read on these boards, tige and Centurion are also coming on VERY strong (at least in terms of the last 12 months).
Old    bambamski            02-24-2005, 1:23 PM Reply   
Matt, you can't tell the quality or how well something is built by the sales numbers.

Most of the boat numbers that are reported I think you have to take with a grain of salt as well. Tige for example can't build any more boats than they're presently doing. That's why they're moving to a bigger facility. MC is at full capacity, as is CC. When I was talking with the Skiiers choice dealer owner here in town they can't build enough 21v's for all the orders that are coming in for this year.

Like you said skiiers choice and Tige for example have had huge growth in the past couple of years where the big three haven't. The big three can't produce 200 or 300 more boats per year to keep increasing by 10% like the smaller companies. What's going to happen when Skiiers choice hits that wall when they can't put out any more boats than the factory will allow? Their price will go up?

Econ 101. Supply/Demand.
Old    matt (supraman)      Join Date: Jan 2002       02-24-2005, 1:51 PM Reply   
As I wrote, I totally agree with you about not being able to tell quality solely by numbers. However, it is some indication of what the target market considers good value.

The numbers I'm working off of represent customer registrations from 97% of the US through 3rd quarter, 2003. Maine, Hawaii and one other state are not included due to their reporting methods. I think that boat registrations are actually one of the best measures of success. Anybody can crank out boats and flood the supply chain, but registrations measure which boats are moving.

Skier's Choice and tige both either recently changed or are about to change facilities for dramatically ramped up production.

Considering the MC actually sold significantly less boats in 2004 than 2003 and nearly 400 less than their peak in 2000, I seriously doubt they're currently at full capacity. (Unless they're flooding their supply chain -- see, I do get the supply/demand thing )
Old    wickedwakes (sjmedic)      Join Date: May 2004       02-24-2005, 2:17 PM Reply   
No problem Pat...I accept your challenge (LOL). Just put the name "Matercraft" on the VLX, and you answer your own question. Then charge $75,000 fo it, convince all the Masterheads that it is the best thing on water and al the pros are doing it...and ...Yes. I do think it will sell for that amount!
Old    bambamski            02-24-2005, 2:28 PM Reply   
lol

Old    Ken (ghostrider_2)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-24-2005, 2:33 PM Reply   
one thing who the hell can get thier beer in the X-10 or so on in the cup holder??? Did they even try to use these cup holders or are they there just for looks????
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-24-2005, 3:29 PM Reply   
This thread is just funny!lol


Like I said in a different thread,If the x-star was 60k....nobody else would sell boats.

END OF DISCUSSION!
Old    wickedwakes (sjmedic)      Join Date: May 2004       02-24-2005, 4:00 PM Reply   
Unless you dont like ugly looking pickle-forks.
Old    brye            02-24-2005, 5:45 PM Reply   
Malibu has no debt. There for they do not spend XXX% of their profits on a boat toward the interest on their loans. That simple
Old    Wkerat (wkerat)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-24-2005, 6:22 PM Reply   
Also, if you ever look at retail sheets you will see Mastercraft charges almost double for pretty much the same motors from indmar...This extra dough has to be going somewhere.
Old    footin_farley            02-24-2005, 7:09 PM Reply   
So now that I let this thread run its course I see the following has occurred:

Malibu enthusiasts cannot answer a question nor argue a point without making it a personal attack.

MasterCraft boats were on top for so long they had no where to go but down in overall sales (which happens when you start to lose sales in the mid-market boats to cheaper options).

No one really got the point I was making based on the responses I saw.

Corvettes(Malibu) have always aspired to be Porsches(CorrectCraft) and dreamed of being Ferraris(MasterCraft). Reality be told it will never happen. As an X-45 owner, I hope MasterCraft stays exclusive by keeping their prices up. Not everyone deserves to own one.

Cheers.
Old    wickedwakes (sjmedic)      Join Date: May 2004       02-24-2005, 7:13 PM Reply   
Spoken as a true brainwashed Masterhead. Too bad you cant use your own post as a mirror, you would have answered your own question long ago.
Old    Colin Fichman (tidalwake0504)      Join Date: Oct 2004       02-24-2005, 7:13 PM Reply   
This is retarded, everything in this thread is merely opinionated. Once in a while you get a semi honest person that will admit one or two things better about the competetor, but they will NEVER say their boat is not as good overall. Seriously im 16 and you all sound like a bunch of wining bitches. If you have fun on the water, what else matters? I hope all you feel good about yourselves. Seems like a big ego contest to me!
Old    footin_farley            02-24-2005, 7:18 PM Reply   
How many boats have you owned howie? This is my third MC. Never a problem. And again with the personal attacks...shocker.
Old    footin_farley            02-24-2005, 7:20 PM Reply   
Colin-discussion boards are all about opinions...that is the point. You are right though, fun on the water is all that matters.
Old    sp0tts (sp0tts)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-24-2005, 7:27 PM Reply   
I think Colin said it pretty well. I'm sittin in front of my tv with the laptop and I keep hitting the reload button to laugh every time there's a commercial. Some of you argue every day over what boat is better and brand loyalty this and that. Who cares? Let your riding do the talking, not your boat and mouth.
Old    Colin Fichman (tidalwake0504)      Join Date: Oct 2004       02-24-2005, 7:29 PM Reply   
Waterlover, although this is my first boat im still capable of reading a post by another member and understanding it! i wasnt knocking mc owners, i was knocking everyone in this post. Yes discussion boards are for opinions, but what does it matter you all might as well agree to disagree, noones opinion is going to be changed. We all feel the way we do about our boats because we have great memories on them. waterlover dont just assume that im attacking you because i own a cc. I happen to like MC, we chose cc mainly upon a great dealer down here in miami.

"Malibu enthusiasts cannot answer a question nor argue a point without making it a personal attack. "
Would that be considered a personal attack? Good job buddy.

(Message edited by tidalwake0504 on February 24, 2005)
Old    footin_farley            02-24-2005, 7:39 PM Reply   
Not a personal attack, an observation.

A personal attack would be if I pointed out that its no shocker that you are 16 because you can't spell and have poor grammar.

I personally like most boats, what I don't like is when someone compares something inferior as if it is on par with what it is being compared to. Kind of like someone that cheats at golf the entire round and then proceeds to compare their score to yours when your done playing.
Old    Wkerat (wkerat)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-24-2005, 7:48 PM Reply   
I agree, I have owned, 3 Malibu's, 2 Mastercrafts, 4 Nautiques, and a Supra and you know what none of them made me a better boarder. I still to this day board behind friends mastercrafts and nautiques. I pull the same tricks. Yes, I like my Malibu. Why did I buy it? Because I liked more about it than the other brands for me. Owning all 3 I can tell you they all have weaknesses and honestly are all pretty close now. Form doing stereo installs and taking interiors out and such I think the Malibu's I have seen have shown a slightly better build than the Mastercrafts, but nothing spectacular. Of them all i have had very few problems with any. My last Mastercraft was the worst of all, but I think they had a down year then and since are doing better. Does their price justify it? If you truly like them more, from a build standpoint and functionality wise no, i think they are really just showing the signs of being owned by an investment group which tries to make a profit in a short time and get out. Also I was pointed out by a few dealers that supra and Malibu offer lower pricing because they are part of a large group of boat lines that buy their parts in bulk so they get them cheaper. Also, when i was shopping with my father and looking at cobalts I heard from 2 dealers that cobalt had torn them all apart and that the "big 3" all would cost about the same to make based on the numbers Cobalt used (what they buy the parts for).
Old    Colin Fichman (tidalwake0504)      Join Date: Oct 2004       02-24-2005, 7:50 PM Reply   
This is a thread, who the hell are you trying to impress? Bad grammer? Whos 16 here? You call it an observation?Looks like a euphemism for being attacking. Did you start this thread merely to piss everyone off? I'm really just curious. This is why threads make me mad, people lose sight of why they got into this sport in the first place. To have fun, get away, enjoy time with friends and family.
Sorry dont be too offended, i may have sounded like a dick, dont mean to be. I was just observing the thread.
Old    footin_farley            02-24-2005, 7:56 PM Reply   
No worries dude. We all have one thing in common...we love boats.
Old    dholio            02-24-2005, 8:26 PM Reply   
I think we will see a difference from CC when they get the new factory up and running. They are maxed out right now but when the new factory comes, they will be able to produce more. Will they sell more? Who knows but time will tell.

Some major differences in the boats come from the fiberglass resisns used (AME 500, AME 100, Polyester/Resin)
34 ounce triple stitched vinyl, 34 ounce single stitch, 38 ounce pre stretched single stitch vinyl
Closed cell foam versus open cell foam
stain resistant top coat vs. no stain resistant top coat
5 year bumper to bumper/3 year engine/lifetime hull, deck and stringers (can't remember the other two but I know that Malibu uses hour restrictions in their warranty. MC is one year on guages and carpet. Sorry I can't remember the rest of the details)
Old    wickedwakes (sjmedic)      Join Date: May 2004       02-24-2005, 8:42 PM Reply   
Waterlover....Owned a few, never a bad one in the bunch. Just voicing opinions. If anyone got offended, my sincerest apologies. If we cant have passionate discussions about the things we love in life...whats the point of posting at all? Just listen to the professionals and do what they say...right? Sorry, never was one to follow anyone elses trail.....because the lead dog always looks the same. PS I dont ever remember anyone else being called "Bitches" in this thread Colin....grow up.
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       02-24-2005, 8:55 PM Reply   
I have never ridden in a mastercraft but have in a Malibu Sunsetter. This is my take on this subject. Remember the late 1970's Pittsburgh Steelers? Who was a better wide reciever, Lynn Swan or John Stallworth? Does anyone get that. A friend of mine has a 03 Air Warrior and its a great boat, bottom line is we have tons of fun it and does the same thing as M/C Bu or whatever. Were all here to have fun man. Who cares which boat may be a little better for whatever reason, the truth is, its all just our oppinions and nobody really knows. Threads like this one are rediculous in my book. No offense Waterlover
Old    Greg (greg__s)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-24-2005, 9:12 PM Reply   
Farley - interesting 1st post. welcome

In regards to your profit margin numbers, I don't think you have any idea who makes what and where. What position did you hold in your past boat dealer employment that made you privy to MC's and Malibu's manufacturing and dealer mark up policy's? I don't think it was one where you would have access to those numbers otherwise you wouldn't be starting a thread with the unsubstantiated statements like the ones you have made.

You probably have no idea the costs for; R&D, work comp and other insurance's, cost of raw goods, profit sharing, rent, shipping, commission's, lot costs, equipment and factory maintenance and the rest of the things that make up the cost of getting a boat to the customer. Or do you? what was you past position again?

The top 3, and probably a few more, will give any customer the quality they want and need in their new boat.

I chose a Bu for my new boat because it was part of the top 3 and its individual characteristics were the right fit for me. I looked really hard at CC because the dealer is local for me and I've had a solid relationship with them for 4 years. I spent a lot of time at both the San Diego and LA shows and didn't find that 'they are all looking up at MasterCraft in terms of overall quality, workmanship and value.' and that is my opinion. I bought a Malibu and you have a MC, great. I just don't think you should come on to a board with your unsubstantiated statements and put the call out for a thread like this.
Old    penny4urthots            02-25-2005, 2:48 AM Reply   
LMAO- absolutely THE most insane post I have ever read on this site. And David W. thank you for moderating such a non backed ill-researched comment. We are here to educate others and gain knowledge, NOT to throw spin and ignorant garb into people's heads. UNFORTUNATELY, the big 3 manufacturers will always be a target for something from a rival brand, but why... If they are TRULY what they say why do they have the need to cast stones made of porice sandstone at another brand?? What I like and don't like is irrelevent in this particular thread I am just sitting here laughing at someone that seems to me to be absolutely brain washed by the corporate histeria of the boating industry. How sad. You have only the opinion of what "THEY" choose to provide you with. I stopped reading the original post @ the 18% vs. 30% statement. Hahahaa wow, I know as do others here that that is so much of a generalized farse that you may very well have lost any and ALL credibility that you may have attained thus far on WW.com

* Stumped with bitter amazement am I... Let's al try to learn something from the originator (farley) Don't write a check that your butt can't cash. O r you may end up looking pretty silly with all of that egg on your face.
Old    jzwake            02-25-2005, 7:24 AM Reply   
MC= Ferrari, CC=porcshe, BU = Corvette??? hilarious.

I also liked when you said everyone should not be able to own a MC.
Aren't they the most purchased boat?

I can only speak of the 3 closest MC dealers to me but maybe the reason for the declining sales is as much Shady dealers as increasing prices/price point competition. The 3 closet MC dealers to me are All used car salesmans and play games. ONe flat out lies constantly. Maybe they are finally running out of ways to convience people to buy their product.

MC makes a good boat but to even try and say it looks down on Some of the other companies is pathetic.

Here you go, better then JDpower and associates. My lists that make everyone number 1.

Best Value:
1)Malibu
2)Supra
3)Moomba

Best Build:
1)CC
2)MC
3)BU

Best Family wakeboat over 45K:
1)MC (X30-X45)
2)BU (LSV)
3)Supra (24V)

Best Family wakeboard under 45K:
1)Moomba (xlv)
2)Centurion (avalanche)

Best wakeboard Direct drive
1)Tige (22r)
2)Supra (Launch)
3)MC (X9)

Best V drive Boat Under 40K (optioned out)
1)Centurion (lighting)
2)Moomba (LSV)

Best Wake boat when you must spend the most possible.
1)X star

Best Wakeboat when you want storage and a top wake and spend under 55K
1)VLX

Best Wakeboat is you want a top wake, best handling, and Conservative style
1)SAN

Best Mid 40K V drive
1)Supra (ssv)

Best Crossover D drive.
1)MC x-9

Best Crossover V drive
1)CC 211
2)Tige 20V

Best Value boat if you live with in reason to a sanger dealer.
1)Sanger (v210)

Best Trailerable Wakeboat
1)SAN

Roomiest wakeboat under 23ft
1)MC Xstar

The most bling wakeboat (will attract all the 16year olds)
1)MC

The most conservative looking wakeboat (will attract people who don't live by pimp my ride)
1)CC

The most Jetson's looking wakeboat
1)BU (with Illusion or blade)

Seriously, this post is as Pointless as the rest in this thread. Opinions, Surveys, Dealers, Owners share one thing in common: They can all give you the best bias information in the world.

Feel free to use my rankings when buying your next boat. I'm sure all the manufactures are scampering to get the rankings on thier websites.
Old    bambamski            02-25-2005, 9:17 AM Reply   
JD power and associates is a joke. If anyone buys a boat based on what they say I'm sorry you are a moron.

I saw an add the other day on TV calling some Hyundai model of car the best in it's class acording to JD power. A Hyundai, ya I believe they're the best now

I've purchased new boats, cars, and trucks and never filled out a JD power and associates form or ever been contacted by them. It's all some stupid marketing ploy that certain companies buy into to help sell their product.

I laugh every time I see CC advertise that they won some JD power thing. CC makes a great boat, they don't have a clue when it comes to advertising and marketing though.
Old    Keith (rkg)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-25-2005, 10:16 AM Reply   
No clue, but they keep selling. Wierd, huh???

Why are you mostly going after Bu? Why not criticize CC? For years, the Super Air was smaller than the X Star (old ,not new one) cost more and yet they keep selling them.

Nothing more than different strokes, that's why they build them all.

Comparing a V ride to and x Star is apples and oranges. V ride is to compete with Moomba, Tige Switch series. Compare the VLX to the X Star. Some people do not like the wake on an X Star (not peaky enough), so they go with Super Air (STEEP) or the middle of the VLX.
Old    footin_farley            02-25-2005, 10:46 AM Reply   
The margin %s I stated were accurate when I was Sales & Operations Manager for a certain boat dealer. I saw exactly how much we paid for MC and how much we sold them for as well as for Malibu and the other boats we sold. We kept metrics (as any good business would) on what products had the most profit margin. I can't imagine we were starkly different than other dealers around the country. That is the only assumption I made in starting this thread...that we were a representative sample based on the volume of boats that we sold. Not sure if that qualifies as getting "egg on my face," but for a ridiculous, "generalized farce" (or is it "farse" skiboredr4life?...learn to spell if you are going to attempt to use an extended vocabulary to make a point)this thread has provoked thought and opinion which was my intent.
Old    Ryan Newcomb (jnewcom)      Join Date: Mar 2003       02-25-2005, 11:35 AM Reply   
I think alot of people buy certain boats from their own experience. I have always liked both Mastercraft and Malibu. When I got my first wakeboat in 98, I was dead set on a mastercraft because my friend had one. My dad started looking into Malibu and found a better deal with all the same stuff so I eneded up getting a malibu. Overall the only problem I ever had with the 98 VLX is the alternator. My friend with the Mastercraft had horrible problems all the time. It seemed like every weekend it was always something going wrong with his boat. After all that i would never have anything but a malibu. I have been very happy with malibu boats, and why spend the extra 10k or more when you can have just as good of a boat or better.
Old    derek boyer (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       02-25-2005, 11:41 AM Reply   
Got no vested interest in either side of the argument, but it is fun to watch. JZ, I like your list, but I want my boat to be number one, too ;-) How bout, 'best out-of-production v-drive' or 'most economical', or 'most vanilla'???

Back on-topic. It seems to me that those numbers (18&35% dealer markup/gross margin) could ONLY be true in one of two conditions:

1) the BU factory was not pumping out enough of them to meet demand, AND MC was, AND the BU factory wasn't trying to get their share of the price premium their shortage was causing by increasing invoice price to dealers. In this way, the average buyer might be willing to spend 17% more to be moved up on the list and that premium would go straight to the dealer. Doubt this one's true because the factory would have to adjust either quantity or price, cuz it can't afford to let dealers get paid that well.

If a shortage of BUs is not the case, than I just don't think that number (the dealer markup) can be true. If so, all the MC dealership owners (just regular guys, right?) would be changing their lines, or at the minimum, new dealers, or existing dealers unhappy with their current lines, or runabout dealers looking to add a towboat line....would all be moving or would have already moved towards BU.

In the end, the hungrier BU dealers would be cutting their margins to compete against the other BU dealers. More BU dealers come on line to get a piece of that bigger-than-average markup AND the factory gets smart and either ramps up and/or raises invoice cost to get their share of that premium. Net result - dealers will always get the percentage they deserve, and it has more to do with service and reputation than what brand of boat they sell.


2) The number of BUs delivered was SUPER small compared to MC or other dealers, because remember that a mfr is only gonna get dealers if the dealer knows he can make a certain amount of profit (remember, he's got fixed costs he's got to cover). To him, profit is (boat sales times dealer margin) minus (factory invoice plus dealer costs). If the number of boats being moved is SUPER low, his markup better be super high. If his total profit is not high enough, he'll start selling Bayslammers. Don't think this one's true, either because they ship a ton of BUs.



In either case, if these percentages were true, the actual production cost of the boat would have to be DIRT cheap compared to MC, because the actual sales prices of BUs are already a little cheaper than MC (assume 10%), and the dealer's getting 35% of that, so...if BUs cost consumers 10% less than MCs, and the dealer's getting 17% more of that than an MC dealer, then the BU factory is actually getting ~27% less cash per boat than MC.

AND...BU sells a lot fewer boats than MC, so they're missing out on economies of scale, have less money to spend on advertising, on quality programs, on efficiency enhancements.

In short, for Mr. Waterlover's stats to be true, then either the European Union is subsidizing BU, or BUs are actually built by Pakistani children, with stolen tools and soybean engine blocks.



And the supply and demand thing is if you're a smart manufacturer that's at full capacity, and you're also too scared to take a risk and expand, OR you've had crappy facilities/financial planning OR ended up too slow to respond with increased capacity OR have mismanaged your money OR....then your marketing dudes should be adjusting invoice price upwards until there's no longer a shortage of boats. Foolish to let the dealers reap all the rewards for any length of time. Maybe when you first roll out a product, like when the PTs came out and Chrysler was making a point of letting everybody know they were keeping prices down, but the dealers were making a killing.


Ferrari does this kind of crap, but not well in a business sense - if you charge a million bucks for a car because it's bad a$$ and you're only making 200 of them, but they actually sell for higher and at the end there are still people who are told "no more for you", then you shoulda either made 300 or charged $2M. Its either that or they're real smart and figure that the reason they can charge some much is that they've made sure that the super-car dudes are always left wanting.



}
Now, can I please add one to my THREADS KILLED count?
Old    Greg (greg__s)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-25-2005, 1:35 PM Reply   
Farley - I have never seen a dealer that sells both. I wish I had had access to one before I ordered my VLX.
Old    Red Stripe (charliep)      Join Date: May 2004       02-25-2005, 1:44 PM Reply   
Interesting post. The cost to a dealer is NOT manufacturing cost considering the amount of overhead applied which could vary tremendously by manufacturer. Also, even if you did compare material + labor costs it still doesn't prove quality because methods and amount of automation can vary. Wakeboard boats are luxury items and as such all carry hefty mark-ups and varying manufacturing techniques. Quality is quality and not always correlated to cost, especially in low volume manufacturing like wakeboard boats. If you want to compare manufacturing process to manufacturing process then you could argue quality.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-25-2005, 1:50 PM Reply   
You guys have too much time on your hands. Go ride or work or something. Amuzing, but another stupid thread on this topic.
Old    footin_farley            02-25-2005, 3:41 PM Reply   
Pointless rant Derek. It has nothing to do with supply and demand. It has everything to do with what the market can tolerate.

MasterCraft knows it can get X amount for its boats. They are the standard that other companies base their pricing off of. Malibu knows it can market the hell out of their product and offer it for just less than an MC regardless of what it costs to make their boats. This price adjustment cuts into what the MC boats can be sold for and thus begins the commoditization of boats. Unfortunately for MC their costs are higher and thus their dealers cannot buy boats from them as cheaply as they can from others such as Malibu. Many customers already have an idea what they want when they walk through the door, but the ones that don't get pushed towards the boat that yields the biggest profit for the dealer. This is the main reason you have seen MC's market share erode over the last few years.

Guess you better subtract this one off your threads killed list...
Old    Ken (ghostrider_2)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-25-2005, 3:54 PM Reply   
MINE IS BETTER THAN YOURS!
YES YOU DID!!

man this is just too funny

I believe the only reason someone needs to defend thier boat is that they feel-

1. they got ripped off
2. they let people get into thier heads.
3. they arent totally happy with it.
4. they feel they have to have the best.

I think you all are crazy for spending that much when my 215 has just as good a wake! and the most important thing about boating is having a good time and the memories you create with family and friends!

you need to ask yourself did you buy a boat for a status thing or to enjoy the water?
Old    shane (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       02-25-2005, 5:38 PM Reply   
I liked some things about the new x2. My riding buddy has an 03 x2 that has been problematic to say the least. Me it came down to a simple equation, dealer + QPR. Malibu VLX for me, my new one is ready for shipment.
Old    bigj            02-25-2005, 5:45 PM Reply   
Its cool that every other post nowadays is about Malibu's. It is apparent that Malibu has command of the lions share of the market and everyone else is shooting for the leader. They say any publicity is good publicity. Keep it up.
Old    jmo52            02-25-2005, 7:58 PM Reply   
PROPS TO KENNY!!!! These type of threads should be nuked. There should be a law against having 6 out of the first 10 threads about Malibu and Mastercraft. Who's better? The only thing I know is Waterlover is a straight up Lurker. How long were you creepin in WW before you started this pointless thread? Bring it.
Old    Big Ed (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-25-2005, 9:01 PM Reply   
Since I been on WW I seen everybody and their mom bash MC and compare themselves to MC,I was told that you go for the topgun!

JZWake ~ Your list is almost completly FALSE!!
Old    derek boyer (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       02-25-2005, 11:52 PM Reply   
Not a rant, Farley - see first sentence. But you're right about it being pointless :-) The S&D was in response to a prior post about like 'what's S&D?' Hey, I can till work on the kill, right?
Old    jzwake            02-26-2005, 6:56 AM Reply   
Big Ed, My list is 100% Perfect. If you did the same rankings, yours would most likely be almost completely wrong. Get my point.

Let be realistic for one second. Everyone on this board knows that a Bayliner 185 I/O is a Better wakeboat then nothing. Scott byerly realized this in 1994 when "spray" was filmed. He just wanted a boat to ride on his home lake and he said he take a bayliner.

A real wakeboarder just wants to ride.

Don't lose sight of that.

(Message edited by jzwake on February 26, 2005)

(Message edited by jzwake on February 26, 2005)

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