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Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-13-2005, 10:43 PM Reply   
a lot of you will probably rip on me for starting this thread, but it must be done.

for the newbies out there that are thinking of riding without the center fins (please don't call it "finless" if it has molded-in FINS), please learn your fundamentals first before you even think of doing that. fundamentals doesn't magically happen by simply removing the center fins. sure, it has helped a few riders, but that's very rare. don't be fooled into thinking that's the easy way out.

master the progressive edge. you need a progressive cut in 90% of the tricks. once you've master the cut (both hs, ts, switch hs, switch ts), then take off/replace the center fins and start experimenting; with no center fins, smaller fins, long base fins, etc.

good luck. (ducking as i step off my soapbox)
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       01-13-2005, 10:50 PM Reply   
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/99786.html
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       01-14-2005, 6:54 AM Reply   
Joe: I'm calling it finless either way so we always have something to argue about. If I say, "I ride my Absolute finless," anyone who knows the board knows that I still have molded fins. Hopefully they're not thinking that I took a belt sander to my molded fins.

If a newbie has the patience to ride FINLESS from the start, it may help them develop solid edging and avoid any bad habits. No?

(Message edited by jarrod on January 14, 2005)

(Message edited by jarrod on January 14, 2005)
Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       01-14-2005, 8:16 AM Reply   
Man I just bought some 2.5 Surf fins for my LF 143 Trip. I needed more fins, is this not cool?
Old    slidervinny            01-14-2005, 8:28 AM Reply   
if you want to learn riding finless then ride finless,you dont want to learn with fins its totaly differnt edgeing and everything.
Old    matt mccord (matt_m)      Join Date: Jan 2005       01-14-2005, 9:50 AM Reply   
joe doesn't know what he is talking about
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-14-2005, 10:03 AM Reply   
I agree.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-14-2005, 10:07 AM Reply   
Only 2.5"'s. I start with 6" fins and work down from there. Joe....Switch toeside? I didn't even know that existed. he, he. And yes, for sure, I ride all my boards finless. Oh, yeah, and if this is the case: What about the old Byerly finless? I'm soo confused. I'm going to get my belt sander.
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-14-2005, 12:40 PM Reply   
Please allow me to clarify. I actually agree with Joe on this one. Learning to use a progressive edge will help you progress much faster. Riding finless is more forgiving on landings when coming out of rotations, inverts etc. but does not help you learn to edge very well.

J- Rod, the 05 platinum has larger molded fins and riding it with a fin sucks! It tracks super well without the center fin. But Joe is right, because you removed the center fin doesn't mean you're riding finless.
Old    xtremebordgurl            01-14-2005, 8:32 PM Reply   
Actually, I'd like to disagree, I think riding finless forces you to control the board and handle better, fins just seem to be more of an aide. Also I think landing with fins is easier then without cause they tend to grip the water and keep me from slipping out. You do need to learn a progressive edge but I would think learning finless would force you to set your rail deeper into the water. Also, as I learned the hard way from Dean Lavelle, handle control has a ton to do with how well you ride, if you have poor handle control it will take you a lot longer to learn board control (this is assuming wakeboarding is your first board sport). Just my .02
Old    jmo52            01-14-2005, 11:05 PM Reply   
I havent been here long but it looks like Joe likes to stir it up...
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-14-2005, 11:19 PM Reply   
in case you didn't read between the lines, i'm actually trying to help.

a newbie trying to learn a progressive cut w/ no center fin is, for the most part, just going to get frustrated. even if the rider is "experienced," the first time he/she cuts in to the wake w/o a center fin, it's going to take some getting used to. now, in place of the "experienced" rider, put the newbie in that situation. he/she is going to have a hard time keeping the board on its edge.

my point is to learn the basics; progressive cut, body and handle position, standing tall, etc, before you think of taking off that center fin.

if you disagree, fine, i can accept that. but, if you think i'm stirring things up with this thread, then it must've hit too close to home.
Old    Bill Montanye (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-15-2005, 5:40 AM Reply   
Joe Thanks bro i have been wanting to say something for a few weeks now on the same subject ,your right on...

BTW riding with all your fins on doesnt make you a bad rider its all personal preference and too each their own,so dont rag people who use their fins..BTW i Use all the fins that go where they go on my board and i prefer it that way and i do pretty well with thme on..i can ride almost as good with them off but dont like the looser feeling on landings...;)

id like to see some of these roders who think they are riding finless grab a board with no molded in fins and take all the fins off thwe board and ride,that would be fun



Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       01-15-2005, 12:00 PM Reply   
Joe you should right a book, titled "How to Look Cool in wakeboarding".

Chapters would include, wear shorts with wetsuits, wear your vest inside your drysuit, dont refer to a board with molded in fins as "finless" and dont attempt to take your fins off of your board unless you know how to edge properly.

Let people do what they want, its all about having fun right? Who cares what they decide to do with their board, gear, boat etc.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-15-2005, 12:31 PM Reply   
pierce, did you even read the thread?
Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       01-15-2005, 2:27 PM Reply   
Yes I did.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-15-2005, 3:57 PM Reply   
so, how did you get this thread and the post about the "vest underneath the drysuit" confused with the "cool factor"?

seriously, stop looking into posts/threads for more than they really are.
Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       01-15-2005, 4:19 PM Reply   
There is no confusion. I am simply stating that people have the right to ride the way the want. What happens when someone wants to ride with gloves? Are you going to tell them they shouldnt?

Seriously, stop being so concerned on what people choose to do with there decisions.

(Message edited by Pierce Bronkite on January 15, 2005)
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-15-2005, 5:07 PM Reply   
now see, i'm confused.


quote:

I am simply stating that people have the right to ride the way the want.




where did i say they didn't have a right to ride the way they want? there's a big difference between that and what i did. i simply gave them advice on what could help them progress faster. like i said above, a newbie will most likely get frustrated trying to edge it w/o the assistance of center fins. that would lead to not having fun, right? like you said above, it's all about having fun.


quote:

What happens when someone wants to ride with gloves? Are you going to tell them they shouldnt?




you're reaching. let it go.


quote:

Seriously, stop being so concerned on what people choose to do with there decisions.




this thread isn't about being "concerned on what people choose to do with there decisions. this thread is about "giving advice" that could help a newbie progress easier, thus having more fun.
Old    waterdog2            01-15-2005, 5:28 PM Reply   
Dont be to hard on joe, He still has the training wheels on his bike.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-15-2005, 5:30 PM Reply   
wow, nice mature post from a 42 year old.
Old    waterdog2            01-15-2005, 5:33 PM Reply   
Sorry,I just couldent resist!
Old    schooledrider (rmcronin)      Join Date: Aug 2002       01-16-2005, 6:47 PM Reply   
maybe we should all be required to post a video clip of ourselves with our profile to separate those who are sooo good at talking the talk from those who can also walk the walk??? I nominate Joe Pro to go first. I keep kicking myself for wasting my time reading some of this garbage-good bye probably for good
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-16-2005, 6:56 PM Reply   
hold up...first you ask me to prove my knowledge in fundamentals w/ vids of my riding, then you say "good bye for good?" make up your mind, will you? so, if a requirement for giving advice is being a pro, you just disqualified 99% of the members in here.

i've already mentioned many times in this message board that i suck at wakeboarding.


quote:

I keep kicking myself for wasting my time reading some of this garbage




shouldn't you kick yourself again for posting in a thread you considered "garbage?"
Old    Jeffrey Blanchard (eternalshadow)      Join Date: Nov 2001       01-17-2005, 12:04 PM Reply   
I took off the fins on my old Bestboard and starting hitting sliders with it this summer. All I know is that board would have been a bitch to ride without the fins. It may have two full length mean double rails but the board is much hard to edge with properly without fins.

I think I'm in agreement with Joe on this one. You might learn better edging without the fins but it's easier to know what you're doing before you play around with it.
Old    Isaac Harrosh (zride)      Join Date: May 2001       01-17-2005, 12:14 PM Reply   
settle down kids....well I can see both side of the coin here. But lets face it...this is a wakeboarding website...and yes newbies do read threads to better their riding and for advice. Yes i do think Joe has many times offended me and my crew in the past with his rude, abrupt, and thoughtless remarks and commments but I do not think he deserves any bad talk for starting this thread. Big deal, you know he has something to what he is saying. I agree that anyone can ride the way they want but it would be easier, like Joe is saying, for riders thatwant to improve on their riding skills to master the basics and fundamentals before trying advanced riding. Its like the rider that can bust out all these flips but can't ride on his switch edge (hs or ts). I dont know but thats my thought. Take care all of you and hope to see many of you at the Nor Cal Boat Show.
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-17-2005, 12:38 PM Reply   
I have also been offended by Joe's remarks, dry humor, and heckling, but he does have a point. This is a message board for all riders to voice their opinions (right or wrong) If you don't like what you read then take it with a grain of salt.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-17-2005, 12:59 PM Reply   
jeff, i don't think the best board was meant to be ridden w/o the center fins (unlike some boards out there). hope things are well up there in the great white north.

isaac, i had no right to say the things i said about you and your crew....my apologies. it may be too late for that, but i'm still sorry.

anyway, i'm glad you were able to see my point.
Old    Jonathan Metherell (jonm)      Join Date: Jan 2002       01-17-2005, 1:20 PM Reply   
Whoever gets offended easily should not be on the internet. Especially just by some of these written posts. Have any of you looked at some of the stuff out there. I could show you offensive. This doesn't bother me a bit. Just his opinion. Relax.

I do get annoyed (not offended) by all of these people who correct grammer. I hope that someone reading my posts has the common sense to understand that if I say I am taking riding my absolute finless it means without the center fins. Use your skull. Old shool riders need to understand that language will change as board designs evolve. Every board has molded in fins now and a lot of newbies have never seen a board without them.

I have read this board for a while though and Joe does add a lot to it. Plus I think I agree with your second point, although I have no video resume of my riding skillz to back it up.
Old    Jeffrey Blanchard (eternalshadow)      Join Date: Nov 2001       01-17-2005, 1:22 PM Reply   
Joe you're right it's not it sure makes surface tricks fun though! and every turn is a powerslide it's pimp. I could get a pair of smaller fins but it's fun to play with on sliders and being that loose.

Things are going decent up here. It's cold and I miss riding as I do for months on end every year. I'm working for an environmental company as a consultant finishing my degree off finally. I'll be looking into moving south this summer (will see if I can scare something up) and if that falls through might buy a boat next spring. You're gonna hate me Bro, I'm still looking at Tige's
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-17-2005, 1:35 PM Reply   
Joe, I had no right to say what I said about you and your girlfriend. It may be too late for that but I'm still sorry anyway. You just pushed all my buttons that day.
Old    Isaac Harrosh (zride)      Join Date: May 2001       01-17-2005, 1:56 PM Reply   
no problem Jumali....thats all in the past and and hold no grudges. Hope we can wake this summer. Take care.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-17-2005, 1:59 PM Reply   
That's why I like my Motive. When it's flat it slides almost like it's finless. And when it's on edge it carves pretty good and holds the edge.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-17-2005, 3:44 PM Reply   
john, cool dude...you got the best of both worlds.

jeff, if you need any help/info when that time comes, let me know. i'll do what i can to help.

isaac, we'll be making trips up to the delta all year long. we'll hook up at some point. eventually, my girlfriend will get in to med school, and it'll be in norcal. i guess i'm gonna have to learn to deal with living in norcal again.

hahn, it's all good. i'm sure i'll piss you off again in the future. so, if you're going to go off on me for something i did, all i ask is that you keep my gf out of it. she's done nothing to you.
Old    airwarrior04 (airwarrior04)      Join Date: Aug 2004       01-17-2005, 4:02 PM Reply   
i went out today and rode it was a good day i wasnt so good but it still was a great day i rode with out the center fin and it was like night and day w/o the center fin is awesome it could break loose so much easyer i loved it and wont go back to a center fin un less its REAL choppy but its no fun anyways when it is choppy. like I said w/o the center fin is awesome! i have a 04 era
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       01-17-2005, 4:06 PM Reply   
zack, i've ridden that board, both with and w/o the center fin. you're right that it's like night and day in the difference. with the center fin, the era is slow as hell. w/o the center fin, it's much faster.

with that said, i wouldn't recommend taking the center fin off that board if the rider's a newbie. it's pretty hard to keep it on edge. but then again, that's me...i suck!
Old    airwarrior04 (airwarrior04)      Join Date: Aug 2004       01-17-2005, 4:11 PM Reply   
i am a newbie but i didnt have a bad time on edge maybe its because i cant edge i dont know! i'll have some pics from today of just me! but yeah that board is so freekin slow! its not even funny! but yah i tryed it w/o the center fin and its so much better!
Old    Bruce Banner (breadbutta)      Join Date: Dec 2003       01-17-2005, 4:12 PM Reply   
The center fin is definetly for Newbie's or tired old men (I include my self in that statement). Riding with out the center fin is a blast! If you haven't tried it, you should. It adds a new deminsion to the sport. Joe brings up a good point for those of us who don't have the experience to modify our equipment, good or bad.

Joe, quick, ring the bell to start round II!
Old    Steven Hahn (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-18-2005, 6:28 AM Reply   
You are absolutely right Joe.

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