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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through March 15, 2005

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Old    Ken W (kenteck)      Join Date: Jan 2005       01-07-2005, 8:34 AM Reply   
We all know that when we spend on the average price on a tower is about 1500.00 and some of us spend every dime we have on a tower. Now we need accessories like speakers, board racks and maybe a light bar, but as you know speakers can run from 250.00 to 900.00 or light bars go from 350.00 to 900.00 and board racks range from 250.00 on up. Some of us are not rich, So what would you think is a fare price for these items? And what would like to see change?

Personally I would like to see prices drop some, It can’t cost 800.00 to build a Light Bar! Or even build a 600.00 pair of Sony speaker cans!
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       01-07-2005, 9:43 AM Reply   
A fair price for a good set of 6.5's is around $250, you kind find them cheaper but they are plastic and have cheap wal-mart spekares in them. Also remember some 6.5's use very high end componnets speakers that may cost $350 just for the speakers. On top of that, you've got numerous other costs that go into the making of the end product. And don't forget why theses companies ar in business....to make money. Some of the more expensive light bars do use a higher quality lite. You can find Light bars on ebay for prerty cheap. If you don't want to pay retail there is alot of good equipment you can find used or on ebay. I've nver bought anything off of WW or WB.com that hasn't been in awesome condition.
Old    John Klein (jklein)      Join Date: May 2001       01-07-2005, 1:51 PM Reply   
wakeside is clearing out the Fusion TSeries combos. I picked up a pair (that's enclosures with clamps, and diamond audio 6.5 and 5/14 speakers with separate tweeters) with 15 percent discount off the listed price for under 600 shipped to my door.
Old    Craig Cox (wakedoctor)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-07-2005, 2:15 PM Reply   
ill admit someone is making some cheeze, roswell's cheapest tower is about $2,100 and it is probably built out of $100 worth of metal. need to give us poor folks a brake.
Old    Fluid Concepts (jlembas)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-08-2005, 8:19 AM Reply   
I have seen these type of threads come up quite a bit, so I decided to pipe in.

I agree that many of the wakeboard goodies are very high priced. However, if you look some other sports and hobbies (MX, buggies, street rods, street bikes) where similar products are being used, I think you will find comparable prices. The wakeboard industry is small, so most companies can't afford the tooling and manufacturing costs to "mass produce" many of the high dollar items. As time goes by, this young industry will respond with better manufacturing techniques and materials. This will eventually allow prices to drop. Also, many wakeboard companies are turning to China or other countries to get their manufacturing done. Many of the tower companies are following suit and this is why you see prices starting to fall. We struggle to compete with companies that have taken their production overseas, but that is what drives companies to make better products etc.

Don't forget about the huge price increase of raw materials. Some metals have almost doubled in price over the last year. Also, the oil industry prices have also increased affecting things like foam, rubber, paint, stickers and many other things you'll find in wakeboarding.

One last note. I'll give you a quick rundown (while leaving out actual costs) of one of our basic towers and you guys can do the math:

3-20 foot sections of aluminum tubing
39 CNC parts of various sizes (this is the part that most people don't realize and is the most expensive)
34 stainless bolts (not including washers, nuts)
2-4 Specialized hand knobs with stainless parts
designing costs
prototype costs
fabrication wages
welding prep
tig welding
paint/finish prep
packaging prep
packaging
Oh yeah, patent licensing fees
insurance (huge cost)

After all this, we still have all the regular business costs.

For some of you who can't or don't want to spend the money on the new stuff, there is plenty of used equipment to be found for a great price! Also, don't be afraid of asking manufacturers if they have any blems or older products they would like to sell at a reduced rate.

Jerry Lembas
Fluid Concepts
www.fluidconcepts.net




Old    Craig Cox (wakedoctor)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-08-2005, 1:47 PM Reply   
And what is your reduced rate Mr Buisness Man? im not gona pay 3/4 price for a f***ed up tower.
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       01-08-2005, 4:12 PM Reply   
Light bars are what kills me, 700$ for a wake designs. Yea, it's nice, but 700$ nice? NO.
Even that guy that makes the Fred Flintstone looking ones and sells em on Ebay wants 449 for his on his website, and it's just plain crappy.
Old    Bill Bierbower (monstertower)      Join Date: Mar 2003       01-08-2005, 7:03 PM Reply   
Craig - Jerry has a great point (and he’s a blast to party with :-). Every company gets a return or a product that has a few scratches on it after production, or similar deal where you can't ship it as new - but the cost to refinish is not a feasible so if someone is looking to save money it is worth asking. If it does not carry the same warranty and support as a new product I'd stay away.

Ken W – Pricing on towers and accessories has actually gotten a good bit better believe it or not. It was about three years ago that I was first looking, and there were no towers (other than some very POS mini-towers) on the market for under $2500, and all accessories were priced 25-50% higher than they are now. I was asking your exact same question back then. The Titan 1 was over $2500 back then and today you can get it for under half that.

The pricing you are offended by definitely creates a business opportunity, but as Jerry said the costs just never seem to stop adding up when you have a company. The guys on eBay are operating with “virtual overhead” so you get awesome prices but the products don’t normally match up . . . yet. I expect they will over time and there are a lot of companies there now, especially in the season.

I feel there has been a “what the market will bear” pricing in this market like any new market, but that is now correcting toward traditional business model pricing. It surew ould have been fun to be here 5 years ago when $2K for a tower and $400 for a wakeboard rack was a steal. In five years the prices may be half of what they are today if the market keeps growing good and economies of scale can kick in. Maybe not because anything for a boat is always expensive.

We have various light bars and speakers coming to market for the 2005 season that will be much more affordable than what is currently out there. I expect many others will have more affordable products this year as well, and it will get even better next year.

I think the Fusions at $600 is an incredible price. I have many friends that paid over $1000 for them last summer. It’s almost suspicious as it comes with spooky silence from them as a company and I think it’s been months since they ran an ad??? Anyone know what’s up with Fusion these days? They have very impressive looking product.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       01-08-2005, 8:47 PM Reply   
believe it or not...$1200-$1400 for a nice pair of tower speakers is not that bad of deal..

trying to put a pair together that looks great and sounds great is more $$$ and harder than it looks..

here is a run down on a very nice diy towers...

4 image dynamics idqs/cx 6.5s ---- idq's $100-$150 pair on ebay
image dynamic cx 6.5 ($180 pair @ sound domain -$360 total)

4 id drivers will "average" $275 -$360
2 emienence horns and lenses ( parts express) $200
custom fiberglass enclosure $400
clamps (6) $200
crossovers $100

total of $1175-$1250

so you are at $1200 without breaking a sweat...

(Message edited by clubmyke on January 08, 2005)
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       01-09-2005, 12:36 AM Reply   
Monster Tower has helped a lot in knocking down prices. And you sell parts to us DIY guys:-)
Old    Fluid Concepts (jlembas)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-09-2005, 7:38 AM Reply   
Craig- as Monster states, blems are just products that can't be sold as new usually due to some minor cosmetic scratches. Just like blemished wakeboards. If you are willing to overlook a little scratch or ding (most times you can't even tell), you can save yourself a lot of money. Just trying to help out. But hey, thanks for the great compliment.....I now feel legit.

As with all our factory blems, we would never sell a product to a customer that isn't 100% safe. All of our products (blem or not) carry the same warranty.

Monster- How was expo this year? I haven't heard any crazy stories like last year. We have moved to a new facility and it seems to have sucked up every last minute for the last several months.

OK back to the topic. Some of that ebay stuff is pretty scary. The thing that worries me is if something goes wrong with the product 6 months down the line. Is the seller going to be around? Do they have liability insurance? Are they a real company? I don't think you can leave feedback down the road on ebay. So is there any recourse? Also, most of those selling on ebay don't really seem to be supporting any part of the wakeboarding scene like most of the companies here on wakeworld.

Jerry Lembas
Fluid Concepts
www.fluidconcepts.net
Old    Craig Cox (wakedoctor)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-09-2005, 8:17 AM Reply   
Funny i don't remember asking what a blemished product was, and how does monster sell a tower for $900?
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-09-2005, 11:08 AM Reply   
Ken,

I really don't understand why a there is even a market for tower lights. People have asked on this board how effective they are and the responses really seem to imply they are for looks only. A few guys use them in docking situations but I think a lantern hung from the tower would probably be more effective.

If you decide that you can't live without the bling factor lights then the $150/pair offerring from Monster will probably meet the need. The cost of the clamps and mounting hardware is obviously the pricey part of all these systems.

Tower speakers can be really nice if the riding environment allows them. Most of the car stereo based offerrings are a pretty serious mis-application of technologies. Again the pricing is mainly based on the mounting hardware or speaker housings.

Personally I feel that reinforced injected moulded plastic probably offers the best housing when you consider the weight and acoustic properties. Currently I only know of a few offerrings with plastic housings, again Monster, Evids, and Loud Liquid. If I could convince NVS-Duane to produce a system to target the lower end mass market utilizing smaller drivers and a lightweight/low-cost plastic housing, I think he could revolutinize the market. Maybe a Loud Liquid/NVS joint venture could produce a tower box with a single HLCD and four 6" full range drivers in the $500 price range?

In less than 2 weeks I will see the new NVS offerring at the boat show, I am on the edge of my seat. Since my riding environment is a good place to use tower speakers and I am buying a new boat this year the subject of tower speakers is of great concern to me.

Ken, sorry I went on a slight tangent. To answer your question. You should expect to spend about $1500 for a well designed tower speaker system. I have run the numbers and that's just what it costs. From a component standpoint it's not that much different then setting up an audio system for a nightclub. If you just want something up there to look cool and make some sound for the people on the swim platform or on the beach, buy a set of cans/clamps from Raul and throw in your favorite color 6.5" car speaker off e-bay. You should be good to go for about $200 bucks per pair.

Mike

ps I have been night skiing when I was teaching waterskiing in Martinique. I am sure it was illegal, but a full moon in a clear sky provides pretty decent lighting. I knew the waterway extremely well and we were the only boat.

(Message edited by mikeski on January 09, 2005)
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       01-09-2005, 12:08 PM Reply   
Lights aren't just for show, they're for attracting bugs!
Old    Bill Bierbower (monstertower)      Join Date: Mar 2003       01-09-2005, 7:49 PM Reply   
Craig - Big Air towers are $895, Boss has towers under $1,000 as does many others. None of these towers are OEM on factory boats today. All of these towers are made in volume as a single design that fits any boat.

If they were made custom they would have to be more expensive. If they were also sold OEM from boat factories they would be much higher priced as many more hands are in the pot then.

Tower lights are definately cosmetic bling and pretty nice for docking. I leave my dock lights off when I go out at night or there are zillion bugs at the dock when I get back. They let me come into a pitch black dock with total confidence. Pickup truck roll bar lights would be better for night riding than the little "deco" lights used in all the light bars that look so cool.

Car audio speakers work pretty good if you put enough on the tower and power them right, but the future is definately proaudio and HLCD's. There will be more affordable products in the future but that's still cutting edge for our market (except for Duane).
Old    Ken W (kenteck)      Join Date: Jan 2005       01-09-2005, 9:59 PM Reply   
Well everybody has different opinions That’s cool, Just like anything else out there price will go down someday, Look at digital cameras I spent 400.00 on mine (3.2) 4 years ago now you can get a 6.0 mp for around 350.00.
As for light bars and speakers, 3 ½ years ago I made my own set and all material cost 170.00 for all of it and I tell you what The lights are only good for seeing the dock & objects up close other than that just for looks, what is all the hype for light bars. Speakers pvc and kicker, sound great and cheap to make and the riders can here it so they are happy.

Its Just hard to believe what some prices are for some things, I can’t believe what people pay for on eBay, Home made stuff that cost pennies to make they get hundreds for on ebay.
I think its eBay that irritating me most of all, people grabbing what the can and adding home made brackets and calling them wakeboard tower speakers & using the brand of the speaker name to fool the public into thinking that that company makes them.
Here is my 170.00 old school set up almost 4 years ago....

Old School bar & speaker aet up
Old    Duane (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-09-2005, 10:57 PM Reply   
I too remember a few years ago looking at some pricing for tower stuff thinking that it was rediculous. Like many of you I decided to build my own. Thanks to Bill at Monster you can see the original NVS on his DIY site. Also thanks to Bill...and others with encouragement, I found out how difficult it is to produce a quality product for the masses.
As consumers we ususally will compare prices of things to other stuff that is "as simillar as we know about" and make a judgement. Often times the other things are mass produced in such large volumes that the cost of manufacturing is a very small part of the overall cost. For the market size we live and work in, we just don't have that luxury. By most market standards, it's a Nitch market at best.
For me, it's looking at simpler designs which usually means easier less expensive fabrication/manufacturing.
I too am coming out with tower lights that are much cheaper then what has been available in the past (whether you need them or not is not up to me). NVS is offering this more by customer demand rather then my desire to get in to that market.
Lastly, as far as less expensive speakers go, Mike is correct, NVS is coming out with something less expensive then the Entity...but not in the $500 range. We have actually spent over 6 months developing a speaker that is being built just for NVS. I'm very excited about it but like with the Entity, I won't make boastful claims about it, I'll let you the consumer judge for yourself whether or not it's worthy of being on a tower. I'll be putting out a press release just before the local boat show (Pleasanton, CA) and have them available at the show to check out.
All in all with what I've seen so far from all the Acc. guys, a lot of great products will be available this year for all to enjoy.
D out
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       01-14-2005, 5:03 PM Reply   
Duane, will your stuff be at any East Coast boat show, like ATL tomorrow? I hope to see it soon.
Old    Duane (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-14-2005, 6:04 PM Reply   
Psyclone,
I'm sorry to say that I won't make it to the ATL show. I hear it is a good one. Maybe I need a good dealer in those parts. Any suggestions?
Otherwise, stay tuned, LOL, this time next week you will have seen the pics at least.
D out
Old    kenw (99air)      Join Date: Feb 2002       01-14-2005, 7:15 PM Reply   
Duane, Whats the word on the Addiction series?
any pics or details available?

Ken
Old    Bill Bierbower (monstertower)      Join Date: Mar 2003       01-14-2005, 8:15 PM Reply   
I'll show mine if you show yours Duane
Old    Duane (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-15-2005, 1:41 AM Reply   
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.....yet!
It's just that I'm so excited to bring yet another revolution (well at least to the wakeboard community) of tower speakers to market.
I just received the last of the parts today so by mid next week I'll post the pics and details.
Bill, can you wait till Wednesday? Your new stuff looks great!

D out
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       01-16-2005, 10:47 PM Reply   
Duane,
This is the Atlanta Correct Craft dealer. Ask for Tony.

WaterSports Central, Inc.

Address: 5815 Holiday Road
Buford, GA 30518

Phone: 770-831-8225

Email: sales@watersportscentral.com

Website: WWW.WATERSPORTSCENTRAL.COM

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