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Old    rugr            11-14-2004, 6:46 AM Reply   
I know, I know, there are a million threads out there like this, and I know a lot of you will want to reply saying, you can't compare apples to oranges. I know the fit and finish of the Mastercraft are far superior to the Moomba, but I have a few specific questions.

I'm thinking of buying either an 04 Moomba XLV GG Edition loadedm 0 hours, or an 02 Mastercraft X-30 Wakeboard Edition, also loaded, with 150 hours. Both about the same price, 38K range. Problem is, I've looked closely at (and crawled all over) the XLV, only seen pictures of the X-30.

1. The thing I like about the XLV is the SIZE. The X-30, seems a tad smaller 22'8, vs. 23' I've read the XLV drives like a much smaller boat? How is the X-30? Can you really pile 10 people in it?

2. Freeboard (depth). I really like the deep freeboard of the XLV, versus other moomba models. How does the X-30 fair?

3. Wake. I've read the wake on the XLV is rampy, but can be adjusted with the 2,600 lb ballast and the wakeplate. I've also read (waterskimag) that the X-30 wake isn't really affected by ballast. Is it at a disadvantage not having a wakeplate?

4. Deprecitation. The way I see it, most of the "new" depreciation has already occurred on the X-30. I assume not the case with the XLV. Any guesses on what the XLV will be worth in 5 years? vs. the 02 Mastercraft?

5. Maintenance/Services. Is there any difference in cost between services at a Moomba Dealership vs. Mastercraft Dealership?

6. Tower stiffness. The XLV tower is impressive. Any thoughts on the X-30's tower?

Thanks for your comments and advice!
Old    rugr            11-14-2004, 8:00 AM Reply   
P.S. Or somebody could make the decision easy for me and sell me a used XLV for around 33K. . .
Old    aircox            11-14-2004, 9:43 AM Reply   
Your call bud,
Flash MC
Tower XLV
Ballast Pick em
Trailers pick em
Board racks MC
Exterior Pick em
Ride XLV
Wake XLV
Interior MC
Warranty new same
space-room XLV
service prices?
I think the X-30 new is 60K>
The XLV new around 44K > Well equipped
I just saw a Yellow and black XLV on Lk Washington yesterday. Sharp looking
But the Bling of the X-30 is a beautiful sight
For me being in both boats...
Used Vs New.. Let the screaming begin /Moomba XLV!
Remember I have owned a MC for 3 years now...
Old    WakeShoe (wakeshoe)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-14-2004, 10:09 AM Reply   
Ryan,
Does the XLV come with new warranty? That might be a consideration. It looks like aircox has done a pretty good job in the comparison. However, for me a major determining factor would be the dealer/service. I have found service to be almost as important as the boat itself. Ask, on this board for experiences with the exact dealers you would be going to for service. If both are equal, then let the boat decide. If one or the other seems to have a bad reputation, I'd go with the other. Good Luck.
Old    rugr            11-14-2004, 10:49 PM Reply   
J.Cox and Wakeshoe,

Thanks for the advice. The XLV comes with a new warranty on Engine and Hull, because it was a demo. That's why the wife and I are leaning towards the XLV. But like J. said, the X-30 is a damn sexy boat. I would get them both serviced in Austin, TX, but that is not much of a factor for me, becuase I will be moving to TN (home of Moomba) soon after I return from Iraq in March and take delivery of the boat. I haven't looking into dealers/service for where I'm moving, but I'll be about 45 mins from Nashville. I know there is a Moomba dealer in Nashville. And I assume there is an MC dealer. Any word on their service reputations?

Thanks again for the advice! Wow.
Old    Laci (tcluv85)      Join Date: Jan 2004       11-14-2004, 10:59 PM Reply   
Ryan, take it from someone who is trying to sell a boat, there is something of value to be said about resale and reputation of the boat. Unfortunately Moomba just isn't there yet, but Mastercraft has the name reputation. Either way you are gambling, Moomba could continue to grow in popularity and respect and Mastercraft could go down, but IMO Mastercraft is the better gamble for resale and reputation.

I am probably going to be slammed for this post. I almost bought a Moomba VLX, but let the resale and reputation play into my decision.

(Message edited by tcluv85 on November 14, 2004)
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-15-2004, 10:04 AM Reply   
All I have to say about resell is to compare the percentages of the price you pay to the resell value of both lines. Say a Moomba is $40k, resell is say $34k. A Mastercraft is say $80k and the resell might be $68k. The mastercraft may appear to have a better resell value but in fact its the exact same. You have to consider that first retail price in my opinion.
Old    Salmon Tacos (salmon_tacos)      Join Date: Jan 2003       11-15-2004, 12:01 PM Reply   
Jon,

Forget percentages for the sake of comparison. Look at the raw numbers. When you sell the boat, you're basically out the actual depreciation (plus interest and maintenance).

Say an X-30 is $60K and the Moomba is $44K, as J.Cox suggested.

Now consider the point in time at which the Moomba has depreciated $22K (50%). To come out even with the X-30 ($22K depreciaion), it would only have to depreciate 37%. That's a 13% advantage.

Say the Mastercraft only has a 5% edge on depreciation though. With 45% depreciation, it would have depreciated $27K. That's $5K more than the Moomba even though its percentage was less. That's $5K (plus the difference in interest) in your pocket.
Old    Laci (tcluv85)      Join Date: Jan 2004       11-15-2004, 12:22 PM Reply   
But you also have to convince the buyer that the Moomba is a good boat. You already know that Moomba is a great boat, but depending on when you sell it and who you sell it to, could make a huge difference. IMO there is a smaller market for people who know wakeboarding boats and will know Moomba and want to buy a used boat. Used boats I would think usually go to people who are entering the wakeboarding market. Not always, but more often than not. And the chance of the new people knowing Moomba are slim. People recognize and know Mastercraft's name. I am not promoting Mastercraft over Moomba, I am just telling what my experience has been. The thing you have going for you is, yes, the Moomba is a cheaper boat, so you hope new people entering the market looking at a used boat will be shopping with their pocket book and go for the cheaper one. Like I said earlier...it is a gamble. If this is your first boat, I would say keep the resale market in the back of your mind. If this isn't your first boat and you keep your boats for awhile, then cancel it out of your choices for now.

Really look into customer service aspects, I know you are moving, but do some research now. Even if you plan on servicing the boat yourself, get to know who you will be dealing with for warranty issues. Very important to know your dealer and the service they provide. If you get bad service on your Moomba, just hop on the boards here and nicely say what they put you through and there are several awesome Moomba reps that watch this board and will ensure you get taken care of.
Old    woopededoo            11-15-2004, 1:03 PM Reply   
my opinion is this... If I was to spend say 40K on a boat, it better be brand new. So, in my case, I would choose the moomba. Nothing against the MC, I think those are some awesome boats. I would just rather spend my money on something new, and that no one else as broken and is trying to get it off thier hands. Moomba is not as high of quality in some areas but I personally think its well worth the money saved. They are both well made boats, and if properly cared for they both will give you years of enjoyment.

I also own a moomba, so I might be a little bias. I can tell you that I have had nothing but great customer service from South Austin Marine the moomba/supra dealer in Austin. Stay safe, and good luck on your choice.
Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       11-15-2004, 1:05 PM Reply   
Ryan, I ride with a friend that has the XLV GG edition and the wake it produces is one of my favorite wakes. The wake is everything you could ask for, huge, steep and firm. I have never been on an X-30 so I cant comment there.

Here are a few of my observations that will hopefully answer your listed questions.

Tower - The tower is very solid but kind of low(his speakers are setup on the top section of the tower). I also think the thickness of the tower looks nice.

Ride/Drivability - For its size, yes it is an impressive ride. It doesn't handle like a big boat and is solid through the double ups.

Wakeplate - Having a Tige 23V with TAPS, I know how important this is while cursing the lake with our without ballast. Having a wakeplate gives you the flexibility to adjust the wake shape, hole shot, and reducing proposing at high speeds.

The XLV is overall a very nice boat with an amazing wake. IMO, I would chooose the new Moomba over a used MC but also consider your dealer. They can make or break your boat ownership experience.

(Message edited by Pierce Bronkite on November 15, 2004)
Old    Laci (tcluv85)      Join Date: Jan 2004       11-15-2004, 1:57 PM Reply   
Remember to test drive through the double-up. The XLV I test drove was not solid through the double-up, I thought the boat was going to come apart at the seams.
Old    bambamski            11-15-2004, 2:49 PM Reply   
Kevin, I think the exact opposite way you do. It's all opinion though.

I'm not talking about MC vs Moomba here. Given a better preowned quality product vs a new lower quality product for the same price I'd go with the preowned.

For example
I'm looking at 2002 Audi A4 for around 28k. Now for 28k I can go out and buy a brand new Chev Malibu. Same price but I get way more car in the long run with the Audi and the hit on Depreciation has already happened.

What you have to decide is the Mastercraft a better built boat than the Moomba and is it worth the extra dollars?

The MC interior will be far nicer to sit in, the backs are slightly sloaped, fit and finish will be top notch as well as how it's built. With the Moomba the interior is pretty squared off, not as comfy and it won't feel as solid. I've never ridden behind either boat, but from what I've heard most really like the wakes so I would have to say they are comparable to each other.

I get a different boat every couple of years so if it were me, I'd take a used MC or CC over a Moomba though. I think selling it will be a little easier down the road...

I really don't take the asking price numbers vs the MSRP very seriously. Nobody pays MSRP, unless you're a fool. likewise on the asking price of a used product. There's no real way good way to calculate the depreciation as everyone lies about what they paid vs what they sold at.
Old    rugr            11-15-2004, 10:57 PM Reply   
So the XLV is no good thru the double up? I've heard it is great in the rough water. Is this not true?
How is the X-30 thru the double up? I haven't heard from many guys who own or have driven the X-30.

Thanks again.
Old    Laci (tcluv85)      Join Date: Jan 2004       11-15-2004, 11:02 PM Reply   
Ryan you really need to get out and test drive the boat before making your decision. During my test drive, the water was very rough and the salesman kept telling me how great it handled...I found out what a nice ride was when I test drove other boats.

It would be nice if one of us could convince you to go either way with the boat, but the fact is, we can't. It is going to be your boat, you really need to test drive them all to know the differences. Don't listen to salesman either, they are just that...salesman. Occassionally there are good ones who will tell you the truth in comparing boats, but those are hard to find. There are some great ones on this site though.
Old    aircox            11-16-2004, 3:13 PM Reply   
B.S Flower is correct, drive them both and you will know. And yes ,do not listen to the Salesman, they are just that.... Salesman. They are the least informed of everyone.... But there are some great ones on this site though. Let us know which you choose...J
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-16-2004, 5:41 PM Reply   
Out of the XLV's defense, I've driven one through chop and double ups many times. It felt pretty solid to me. Now you can hit double ups at bad angles. I have driven boats, Moomba included where the double up shook the boat pretty hard. Another manufacturer's boat's engine that will remain nameless actually missed when the boat hit the double up hard.
Old    Michael Cook (mcook77)      Join Date: Feb 2004       11-17-2004, 6:31 AM Reply   
I have an 04 XLV GG (the one that Pierce is commenting on above) and believe it to be solid through the double ups/rough water. Not only is it solid through the double up, but I have people that ride behind many different boats saying that the double up is one of the "meatiest" they have ever hit. Some people are hesitant when they hear Moomba - but I have NOT had 1 single complaint/negative comment about my wake!
Old    aircox            11-17-2004, 11:15 AM Reply   
I agree, being behind and in both boats, the Moomba does awesome thru rougher waters. Not to say the X-30 does bad. I know my Xstar does not like rough water
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       11-17-2004, 12:02 PM Reply   
as far as wake, i was impressed that i was able to surf behind an XLV with just factory ballast. XLV's a really nice rig, and probably the best value around right now.
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       11-17-2004, 5:49 PM Reply   
Ditto Trace!! I own an XLV and absolutely love it! No doubt the best value out there. When I bought my XLV at the beginning of the year I remember thinking to myself that it was going to rock the wakeboarding industry. performance that equals the others at $10,000 to $20,000 less. And I can attest, it definately performs!!!! Very happy with it. Comfortable, great layout, new innovations that are only found on the XLV and other Skiers' Choice boats and the storage!!! You can sleep in three compartments! Heck, you can smuggle a small cuban family over in it!! LOL! Skiers' Choice hit a home run with the XLV and it's getting better with the changes they made this year. Kudos to Matt Brown and Skiers' Choice!
Old    upupnaway            11-18-2004, 7:33 AM Reply   
I demoed the XLV, and loved it. The boat was just too large for my uses.
We had factory ballast and 3 people, and the wake had more kick than some of the monserously overloaded contest pulls I have ridden behind.
The double up was amazing, even in choppy water and bad angles. It rode really solid through the double... I was filming at a tight angle across it and never had to pan out.

I only had one issue with the boat.. The tower rattled going over the double. It may have been collapsed during the trip to the demo lake, and not properly tightened once it arrived.
Do any of you XLV owners have the same noise?
Old    HeHateMe (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-18-2004, 7:36 AM Reply   
I don't own either but I have been in MC and Moomba. When you talk about fit and finish, the MC seems nicer. As for quality... I know a lot of people out their that have 02/03/04 X-Stars and have had so many little things go wrong with them and had to wait awhile to get replacement parts.

So the price should reflect on the comfort and ride of the boat... but doesn't necessarily indicate what types of headaches you will run into.
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       11-18-2004, 6:25 PM Reply   
XLV, One full summer, 115 hrs.......ZERO Headaches! And yes, my tower shakes a bit. Nothing I'm too worried about, it's doesn't rattle and make any noises, it just shakes a bit side to side in rough water. But they have fixed that problem in the 2005's. They put bigger feet on the tower and I think larger mounting plates underneath. They also redesigned the pivot points and detachment points to make it much stiffer.
Old    rugr            11-23-2004, 5:04 AM Reply   
Does anyone have any more info on the "beefed up" tower on the '05 that Kraig mentions in his post? Is it worth waiting for an '05, over getting a great deal on an '04? Is there any way to apply this "fix" to the '04?
I'm still torn between the X-30 and the XLV, but I'm leaning towards the XLV based on good things I've read in this post and everything my dealer is willing to throw in. Thanks again, and keep the advice coming!
Old    Michael Cook (mcook77)      Join Date: Feb 2004       11-23-2004, 7:31 AM Reply   
Here is a pic of mine. I just tighten up the tower about once a month and am good to go. Warning - I also drive through alot of double ups so that tends to make the tower a bit more prone to loosening up.


Old    Chris Walker (redsupralaunch)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-23-2004, 1:31 PM Reply   
MCOOK77 - NICE!
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       11-24-2004, 2:39 PM Reply   
Ryan- If you have a chance to get a great deal on an '04 XLV I would not let the upgrade on the tower interfere with that decision. Personally, I like the feet and the clean look of the '04 tower over the '05 tower. Not to say that the '05 is bad because it looks sweet too. But the feet have a cleaner look on the '04. The shake in my tower is nothing I am worried about nor has it caused any problems for me. I am going to try what Mcook suggested, tighten my tower every month or so. Beyond that, you can add larger mounting plates to the underside of the hull.
Old    shawne (rodeo)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-27-2004, 8:17 PM Reply   
Ryan-I live about 45 minutes north of nashville and ride on old hickory. Gimme a holler when boat show time gets here and me and the crew might try to meet and show you the around.laters
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-27-2004, 8:44 PM Reply   
there really is no comparison.....the mastercraft is a better boat in all regards.(no offense intended)..

the build, the motor, the long term tolerance(tightness) will be better on the mc...

imo you are comparing a used mercedes to a new ford....

part of the difference will be the service... how comfortable are you with the local mc dealer and what is his position on servicing a used boat...

btw, if your malibu dealer is reliable, why not a malibu ?

mike


(Message edited by clubmyke on November 27, 2004)
Old    rugr            11-28-2004, 8:02 AM Reply   
Mike,

With all due respect, I like my Chevy Truck, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Mercedes. . .
I know I am comparing apples to oranges, and I think the oranges are winning. . . just like my chevy. . .

Ryan
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       11-28-2004, 11:08 AM Reply   
"the build, the motor, the long term tolerance will be better on the mc." Excuse me?? Not true! First of all the build, I assume you are referring to the hull, are built identically. They both use the same techniques, the same fiberglass, the same gelcoats in identical thicknesses. And if you're talking about windshields, they have the exact same manufacturer of windshields. Maybe it's towers you're talking about, again, same manufacturer of towers. Oh wait, maybe it's the trailer you're talking about. Once again, it's the same supplier who builds their trailers.Most of the guys at SC are from MC. Besides, they both come with lifetime warranties on the hulls. Now for the motor. Identical drivetrains!!!! IDENTICAL!!! So how is the motor any better in the MC? Answer that one and you win the prize of the day. So now that leaves us with the tolerance issue. Or tightness as you call it. The only thing I can think of that rattles on a boat is the tower. Maybe you're talking about a smoother ride? Is that what you're talking about Mike? Do I need to clarify for you? I can clear that one up too. Here, let me give you another one, how about fit and finish? The plushness of the seats? Are these the things you mean Mike? Let's see if Mike posts on this thread again. Be careful Mike, don't skew someone's decision on slanderous comments. And just to be clear on something, I love Mastercrafts. They have done alot to propel the sport and they produce an incredible product. It just irritates me when someone does a driveby shooting like Mike did.

(Message edited by Kraig on November 28, 2004)

(Message edited by Kraig on November 28, 2004)
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-28-2004, 11:13 AM Reply   
ryan... it is a metaphor. that is all it is.. it is comparing a high quality manufactured /enginerered item to a average mass produced item.

there is nothing the matter with chevy, ford, or american cars....however when it comes to fit, finish, enginering, and tolerences(tightness) over a period of years...guess what ?? european made cars cars do much better than the american...(they also cost alot more) (btw, the new sl600 roadster is pretty nice.. but then again i live in so cal)

generally speaking, you get what you pay for, there is no way around it.

a 60k plus boat(mc) will be better built/constructed than a 40k boat(moomba)..this is not a mastercraft vs a moomba marketing hype...(btw, i own a nautique)

in your situation, you may want the newer boat with the warranty..that is your call. however, you wont know if you made the right decision ( no matter what boat you went with) till you are 1-3 years down the road and you have lived with it for a while (kinda like marriage)

good luck with the decision.

best regards,

mike
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-28-2004, 12:18 PM Reply   
mike,

Just curious, why do you think a 60k plus boat will be better built/constructed than a 40k boat? I surely don't agree with that statement. Take Supra and Moomba for example. Supra costs more than a Moomba but it is not constructed any better. Same construction methods go into both boats in the same exact factory side by side. Care to explain this one?
Old    (DRA) deltariders.com (sanger215guy)      Join Date: Oct 2004       11-28-2004, 12:33 PM Reply   
I agree with Jon, and I would challenge anyone to show how MC can show that 60 k makes it a better manufactured boat. Most of there elevated pric is due to marketing cost and overhead due to company size. This is not saying they are not a quality boat but for 60k you are buying more name than superior manufacturing.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-28-2004, 12:59 PM Reply   
i looked at the supra and the moomba from the dealer in riverside, ca. he had both side by side.

imo...the fit and finish of the supra was superior to the moomba...( notice the "imo" - you mileage may vary).the interior of the moomba was very rough ( i would dare say cheap..)

imo, the mastercraft had a better fit and finish than the supra an all departments (again...imo)

jon, to answer your question...if you want to compare mastercraft to supra/momba.(despite the supra costing more than the moomba...not much more i might add) again the mastercraft is a better built boat. just because something is built at the same factory doesnt mean the the same quality of components... there is a big difference between a range rover and the land rover discovery as there is between a gmc and cadillac...

is that because it cost more ????? that is part of the the equation...the other part it is because it is a mastercraft...(mastercraft, nautique, and malibu will hold there value a little bit better because they are better built boats - with mastercraft and nautique being the best)

as soon as that moomba is driven off the lot...hugh depreciation and good luck on resale ( resale is regional dependant)... the mastercraft has already seen the depreciation and it wont move far from what he gets is for.

in the long run, the mastercraft will hold its reputation, tolerances and feel ( this is the advantage of buying a mc, it has a very, very solid track record)...will the momba/supra ??? it might (try looking in to a crystal ball)

however, it would be curious to drive both and see which one handles better ( try comparing a 02 supra/moomba to a 02 mc and the difference will be obvious..in fact the 02 mc "should" handle as well as a new 04/05 mc.

if you think a supra/moomba is in the same construction class and driving experience as a mastercraft...... hey then go for it.. ignorance is bliss and it cost less...
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-28-2004, 1:33 PM Reply   
Mike,

You still didn't answer my question, why do you think a 60k plus boat will be better built/constructed than a 40k boat? You talk about holding their value but thats it.

I will choose not to comment on your other statements because that will open the field up to many more things.
Old    zboomer            11-28-2004, 1:34 PM Reply   
Interestingly MC trails Nautique, TIED with Moomba and Malibu in JD Power overall rating.

The MC was in 4th place in the "Value for the Money" rating, with Nautique and Moomba tied for 1st.

Even though they are expensive, Nautique owners feel they are worth it. Can't say the same for most MC owners (the ones who filled out their JD Power surveys).
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-28-2004, 2:20 PM Reply   
i thought i did answer the question....i will try again...

even a mastercraft or nautique or malibu in the 50k - 60k range is better built / construction / quality than a 40 k boat...( Resale Value Confirms This - that is why it is mentioned in the first reply)

this is obvious with even 10 year old mc and nautiques ( take one for a ride, they still are pretty tight and they hold their value compared to other boats) wether the same will be true with other new 40k boat 5 - 10 years from now is pure speculation

when it come to consumer reports /jd powers (ratings that are put up by people who know very, very little about alot not to mentions skewed statistics - is a marketing tool so people will be reassured with their buying decision...) i bought a new nautique and the jd power rating meant nothing to me (i was far more concerned over the reputation, quality of the boat and the dealer).

when you bough your car or truck, did you go the the jd powers web site or did you base your buying decision on experience(personal and others), reputation, model, and affordability ?

imo, reputation / reliabilty / track record(over a period of years) is more far valid than a NON-Industry rating /survey)

i took a seriuos look at the mc x-30 and the moomba/supra and there was no comparison between the 2. i went with my nautique based on reputation, layout, powerplant, dealer, and price.

looking at the inital posting... the question was do i buy a newer "cheaper" built boat or a older /used "better" built boat..that was my interpretation...if that is wrong, please accept my apology

anyways good luck with the decision
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-28-2004, 2:41 PM Reply   
Call me hard headed or simply stupid but that still does nothing for me. Resale value tells me little to nothing about quality of construction. You cannot compare an older Moomba to a current Moomba because they are made so much better than in the past. They were not even owned by Skiers Choice when Moomba first started making boats. However, I totally agree with you about JD Powers.
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       11-28-2004, 3:04 PM Reply   
Mike- First of all, the statement "looking at the initial posting... the question was do I buy a newer cheaper built boat or a older/used better built boat" Find me where else that is stated. I think that was YOUR interpretation and yes, it is wrong. It's not a cheaper built boat at all! It's fit and finish aren't as nice as a MC, but SC builds Supras to compete with MC's when it comes to fit and finish. As for build quality, they are all the same. As for tolerances, or tightness, what exactly gets loose on a boat? Give me some examples besides the tower. And YES, SC does put the same components in both lines. "as soon as that moomba is driven off the lot...hugh depreciation and good luck on resale"I sold my last Moomba in April of this year, 2002 Moomba Outback. Sold it to the first person who looked at it for $2000 dollars less than I paid for it. I also beat out 4 other MC's the buyer was looking at. Saw the buyer the other day, extremely happy with the boat. And from my experiences, the more expensive boats depreciate faster than a lesser expensive boat. If something is overpriced, it will depreciate faster. This was a contributing factor to the "Value for the Money" rating Moomba got by JD.

(Message edited by Kraig on November 28, 2004)
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       11-28-2004, 3:12 PM Reply   
if you think a supra/moomba is in the same construction class and driving experience as a mastercraft...... hey then go for it.. ignorance is bliss and it cost less... Actually, I hope you keep that way of thinking. It's that way of thinking that is allowing SC to move into the Big 3 and post the biggest gains of all the manufacturers. So, please keep that train of thought and discount SC as a competitor. It will help keep our prices down and yours up.
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       11-28-2004, 5:46 PM Reply   
SC puts out some pretty low budget ads, but makes a super nice product for the money. MC makes a super nice boat but spends a LOT of money on marketing. Somebody's gotta pony up, might as well be the customer. If I were looking for Xstar wakes, I'd buy an XLV and keep the 20k difference. The interior on an MC is a little plusher and way more whiz bang boy-racerish, but is it work the difference? Not to me. I'm not trying to impress anybody, I just ride a lot. That's the market segment that SC is going after, quite successfully, too. When my Toyota finally wears out (they go 3000 hours) I'll buy a Skiers Choice boat.
Old    HeHateMe (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-28-2004, 6:02 PM Reply   
Go for the new boat! There are an equal number of problems with any boat you buy. Most seem to be minor little tempermental problems. Which can be made into nightmares with a poor dealer! Make sure you have a good mechanic. I find it funny when people start comparing the boats and say this one is way better then the other etc etc etc. If any company in this world can build pieces of crap and sell them for $40,000+ and still stay in business (which they won't) then we as consumers are the idiots. Everyone makes a great boat. Made for different users and different budgets. You buy the boat that works best for you and it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. There is nothing wrong with buying a boat for the WOW factor and impressiong others, and that is some company's target market. Costco and Walmart sell to the masses... while a boutique will sell the same product with a certain brand name and sell it for ten times as much, and focus on selling to those that it is important for. So the bottom line is, it isn't about how much, or what is better, it comes down to what works for you. If everything came down to price and the more you spent, the better the boat.... then you would see everyone increasing their price, because the higher priced one... "must be better"....

Have fun with whatever boat you choose. Just get one that works for you and have fun with it!!!
Old    sbvfive            11-28-2004, 6:41 PM Reply   
This is typical...if you own a Moomba, you post that Moomba makes a great boat. If you own a MC, you post that MC has a great boat. If you are a Moomba Dealer, you post that Moomba's are the best. Notice that no one has posted that they hate their MC, or that they hate their Mooba. Basically, you will be happy with whatever you buy....all the other BS doesn't matter. It is great that boat owners have brand loyalty, but realize that trying to convince someone to like another Brand of boat is like trying to convince George Bush that John Kerry is really a cool guy.
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       11-28-2004, 6:47 PM Reply   
I don't own either one. Neither does my dad.
Old    Clubmyke (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-28-2004, 7:06 PM Reply   
hey kraig.. i didnt mean to get your g string string in a ruffle but it is personal opinion and it is a free country... (you can take it or leave it).

the easiest way to tell is the differnce is take the two for a drive... are you trying to sat the moomba will perform "exactly" like the mc-30 ? yyyeaaahhh right.... i dont think so...not to mention moomba doesnt have anywhere near the reputation as the mc... will it in the future..no one knows...

actually the price of 2 of the big 3 has come down the last 6 months in southern cal ( the local bu dealer has marked his price up and the others havecome down...thanks paradise you made the decision easy !!!)

one can get a mc, san or bu within $3k of each other with malibu being the most expensive comparably equipped.

i do have agree with kyle.... go with what works for you and is important to you in "your situation"... on the flip side there is a reason why some products cost more, sometimes it is marketing and other times it is because companies build a better product (or a little of both)...

most manufactures make "good" boats.... but only 2-3 make "great" boats (whoever thinks all boats are exactly the same is ....( i'll leave that blank). mastercraft does make a "great" boat..there is no question about it.. wether moomba/supra does can only be found out over time...

which leaves the question... do you want to take a chance on a "new" unknown or a "used" established ?
Old    zboomer            11-28-2004, 9:59 PM Reply   
Guys like you, willing to pay $10k extra for a name, are what keep MC in business, so I'm sure they love you too. :-)

(Note, my last boat was an MC)
Old    hundo            11-28-2004, 10:31 PM Reply   
Buying a boat is a lot harder then buying a car thats for sure.I drove 5 different manufactures and was 99% sure I was going with the 05VLX then I drove the SANTE and it was like I can't believe I like this boat so much better.Now I'm just deciding on color and yes I will pay a few $$ more. Thank God for this great country and we can have choices on which toy we want
Old    bambamski            11-29-2004, 10:20 AM Reply   
Buy the boat you like the best. Pretty simple, like Hundo said, he drove 5 different boats before buying the one he liked the best.

If the MC drives and feels the same as a brand new XLV you gotta think that in two years the XLV may not drive quite as nice as.

You guys are discussing why MC's are 20k more? There are lots of factors, marketing, research, technology ect. I'm thinking the biggest factor is building though. I think someone above said that the XLV and MC hull are the exact same thickness. What they didn't say is that MC is 100% hand laid, no chopper gun. Now to 100% hand lay something is going to cost you more in labour that someone that's spraying bits of glass in the hull. Another thing, how does the Chopper work, well when your spraying the glass there's about a 60-65% resin to 40-35 glass ratio with the chopper. It's the exact opposite with the hand laid. The glass is stronger than the resin so which hull is going to be stronger? Not saying either one will last longer than the other but I'm saying that one will be stiffer.

Both boats are going to be great! Drive them both and go with the one that fits your budget and what your looking for the best. MOst of all enjoy your purchase and don't second guess yourself. Oh and have fun and remember that 90% of the boaters and boarders out there are having just as much fun behind their families i/o runabout with a poly e rope and no tower. That right there should put it into prespective.
Old    Dave (schmo)      Join Date: Oct 2003       11-29-2004, 11:03 AM Reply   
Umm, if I am not mistaken, the XLV and other skiers choice products don't use a chopper gun either.

I actually see some people use that statement against malibu and arguments each way as if one way is really better than the other.

On a side note, just because something is more expensive or more luxurious doesn't necessarily mean that it is build better.

In the car world, no one will doubt that Mercedes has a great fit and finish and is built with a lot of quality components however their service record is quite disappointing when compared to a Honda, Toyota, etc which are all much less expensive with fewer bells and whistles.

Either way, it is what is important to you. Many of the foundations of these boats are close if not exactly the same (engines, transmissions, guages, perfect pass, etc).

Drive them all, weigh what is important to you and balance that with price. After all that your choice will be clear or you will be more confused then ever.
Old    Kevin K (supra)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-29-2004, 11:33 AM Reply   
I have not seen a chopper gun inside of Skiers Choices factory... But maybe Pat has... I will check again next week and will keep you posted.
Old    bambamski            11-29-2004, 11:46 AM Reply   
I'm not going first hand here just going from what I was told. If SC doesn't use a chopper that' my bad.
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-29-2004, 12:18 PM Reply   
Skiers Choice does NOT use chopper.
Old    bambamski            11-29-2004, 1:34 PM Reply   
Ok, good for them! They just went a couple of notches above Malibu in my books now (kind of thought they were about equal). If they'd only get rid of the forced bow playpen set up...That's all a matter of preference though.

Old    Salmon Tacos (salmon_tacos)      Join Date: Jan 2003       11-29-2004, 2:17 PM Reply   
This may not be relevant to this discussion but I wanted to point out that the presence of chopper guns as a factory is not, in itself, a bad thing. I've heard that some companies use the chopper guns for filleting of stringers and other reentrant angles between surfaces. This would actually be a good thing, producing a more solid boat than one in which the glass is hand-laid directly into the joints between surfaces.
Old    Kevin K (supra)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-29-2004, 3:28 PM Reply   
I do agree with Tacos( although the name Salmon tacos always makes me wonder) Chopper guns are much more advanced then previous decades, they are computer monitored and will spray the exact amount of glass needed in the application and the applier measures for exact thickness throughout the whole process.A choppergunned boat would not stop me from buying it.I do like the playpen style seating myself, again all preference.
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-29-2004, 3:42 PM Reply   
Haha, something just popped into my head. What if the chopper gun sprayer sneezed or was bumped or something. Dang that would suck. I'm guessing they would trash the hull or redo it or something. I'm still liking handlaid.
Old    Laci (tcluv85)      Join Date: Jan 2004       11-29-2004, 3:48 PM Reply   
FYI Ryan Nelson (rugr) - Kevin K (supra) is a dealer/salesman and will type whatever it takes to make a sell of a Skier's Choice boat.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       11-29-2004, 4:09 PM Reply   
i'm curious. why are you in the market for such a big boat?
Old    hundo            11-29-2004, 6:43 PM Reply   
CC does a first layer(skin) with a chopper gun. Read their website and that will better describe why they do this.

http://www.correctcraft.com/Main.htm#Scene_1
Old    matt (supraman)      Join Date: Jan 2002       11-29-2004, 7:29 PM Reply   
Let me preface this by saying that I do not work in the wakeboarding boat industry and I do not work for Supra. However, I have spent plenty of time in boat factories and in boat R+D departments.

With the technology available now, computerized systems are able to monitor what's coming out of a chopper gun and maintain a precise resin to glass ratio that you simply can't replicate by hand. Yes, experienced craftsmen can do an outstanding job by hand, but turnover in the boat-building business is not exactly low, if you know what I mean. I would much rather have the computer keeping an eye on the composition of my new purchase than letting Junior learn the craft on my $50,000 boat. Even with these systems in place, it's not foolproof.

Also, Bambamski's wrote:

"Well, when your spraying the glass there's about a 60-65% resin to 40-35 glass ratio with the chopper. It's the exact opposite with the hand laid."

If you flip-flop the ratio like that, you're not gonna have a strong boat -- you're gonna be screwed! Ratios are not set to save money or cost -- they're set to achieve the appropriate saturation level for the resin. If you flip-flop as bambam suggested, you're boat will wick in water like nobody's business and blister in no time. Not a recipe for success.
Old    Kraig Kaiser (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       11-29-2004, 8:00 PM Reply   
On the topic of the chopper gun, Pat mentioned that one of the differences, and he thinks that this is the biggest reason for difference in price between a MC and a Moomba, is that the MC is 100% hand laid fiberglass. In order to do that is very costly and again is one of his biggest reasons for there being a price difference. Pat, SC boats are also 100% hand laid fiberglass!! So if they are both 100% hand laid fiberglass then this must NOT be a major factor for the price difference. And yes, the hulls of MC and SC are made identically! Most of the guys, including the CEO of SC, came from MC. The difference is fit, finish and options. Another reason, that is overlooked, is that the management at SC owns the company. MC is owned by....who ARE they owned by now? Anyone know?

(Message edited by Kraig on November 29, 2004)
Old    rugr            11-29-2004, 9:20 PM Reply   
I fly a "chopper"
It has a "gun"
I've sunk two iraqi boats into the Tigris River with it this year!
I guess my "Chopper Gun" is better at destroying boats than building them!!

Thanks for all of the advice. I think it is fine if the Supra/SC dealers are sticking up for their product. I don't see any Mastercraft people stepping up. I agree that Mastercraft make great boats, but I just don't think the X-30 is a great wakeboard boat.

Joe, . . The reason I want a big boat. . . I've had a small boat (18ft), I don't like tripping over people when you get 6-8 people in the boat. They say every 2 years, you want 2 more feet, so I'm going big now, and hopefully I'll be able to keep it for 10 years. . .

Thanks for the opinions, keep them coming.

I'm still in the air. Favoring the XLV for warranty, wake, and service. Still considering the used MC, because of resale value.
When I bought my new truck, it just killed me that as soon as I drove it off the lot, it was worth much less. Not because I wanted to sell it, just becuase. I don't want to feel that same sinking feeling when I buy a boat. That is why I am considering used vs. new.

Keep the advice coming. Obviously I'm not doing much test driving right now, not many SC or MC dealers in Iraq. . .

Ryan

(Message edited by rugr on November 29, 2004)
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       11-29-2004, 9:35 PM Reply   
ryan, gotcha.

not to eff up the mix you've got goin' already, but have you considered a malibu vlx? it's 3' longer than your 18-footer, has lots of storage space, lots of interior space, and has an awesome wake!
Old    Kevin K (supra)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-30-2004, 12:09 AM Reply   
Rugr, stay safe , As someone pointed out <I am in boat sales. Sorry if I mislead anyone, alsoI am sorry if I offended anyone with my comments about chopper guns and playpen style seating. If I offended anyone with my chosen profession ,please let me have it and I will try and explain myself. Please read my comments and tell me who is out of line...
Old    rugr            11-30-2004, 4:52 AM Reply   
Joe,
I've looked at the Malibu VLX a little bit, but it and the other 21', 22' and smaller boats I've looked at just don't look like they have as much room in the rear cabin area. I like the wrap-around style seating that the 23' V-drives offer. I think that is where you spend 90% of your time in the boat, and I don't want to skimp on that space.
I also want something that will "hold its own" when the water gets choppy on the weekends and I feel that a bigger boat will do that better. I was home for 2 weeks in September and rode in a buddies' 04' Tige' 22V and thought that was even a little cramped in the cabin area, although its an AWESOME boat. I just think the extra room in a 23 footer will be nice to have.

Any more thoughts?

Ryan
Old    upupnaway            11-30-2004, 7:08 AM Reply   
I was under the impression that there is only one big name manufacturer that uses a gun for laying their hull, and it was not cc, mc, or sc.

Facts are facts, and as someone already pointed out, the drivetrains are identical, same parts, same manufacturer.

One thing to consider is the price of the engine upgrade for both boats. I was quoted 1395 for 325hp MPI motor upgrade on the moomba, yet the same base motor to the same upgrade was quoted as 2095 for the mastercraft. Do they inflate all of their prices?

Don't get me wrong, I love the X series, and we are considering buying an x-star(x-2 style), but it is due to wake shape, not dillusions of higher material quality based on inflated prices.

Old    bambamski            11-30-2004, 9:07 AM Reply   
Ok so both are 100% handlaid fibreglass, so labour wise they should be the same right? I don't know all the manufacturing steps for both boats. How are both the floors constructed? How do they both fit in? WHat kind of hardware is used? Does one boat use a different or more expensive stringer system? How often are the moulds cleaned out? Ballast systems, Dash components, interior? There are a tons of little things that we see and don't see I'm sure when it comes to building a boat.

I have a friend here in town who owns a Moomba LS. He really likes it, and is a big SC backer. He's buying a new boat and took the X-2 for a demo and said that it was much more solid then his boat. His boat you could feel things almost twisting were the words he used. With that said the two boats he's looking at are the X-2 and the new 21v launch from Supra. He'll probably get the 21v but my point was he thought the X-2 was a stiffer and better riding boat than his Moomba. So obviously something is different in how the two boats are built.

You can't see what goes into the boats but you can see how they are finished and how things fit together. The difference between Supra and Moomba are pretty obvious. Seats, dash, ballast is a step below the Supra, which is why they are a different price. The Moomba's are a nice boat but there is no way you can tell me that they are finished as nice as the Supra or MC. When comparing the Moomba to the MC it's like comparing apple to oranges. You can argue all day long about Supra vs MC but not with the Moomba.

I compare it to the Lincoln vs Ford. Or the Caddy vs Chev, Lexus vs Toyota. All build a quality product, the difference is some of the components are better and they are finished with better products. Which one usually lasts longer and has the best resale value?

Mike, I was quoted the upgrade engine on the MC at $895 bucks and if you buy now MC offers the upgrade for free as a boat show incentive. Also with the upgraded engine you get the throttle by wire which includes the cruise control, which is MC's version of perfect pass. So if you upgrade you don't have to get wakeboard pro at what $1000 bucks and it's also 350 hp vs 325hp.



Old    aircox            11-30-2004, 10:31 AM Reply   
Well said Pat...The fit and finish and options are the big difference between MC ,Moomba and Supra. But you really cannot say that construction is that much different. You can argue all day long between MC and Supra, but you should not throw Moomba in the mix because of fit and finish. Although you can option out an XLV to be the same as the X-30 ,and still have 10K in your pocket and still have a bigger boat for the money saved. All in all Ryan is looking at a used MC vs a new Xlv. I bet MC is just about to choke up a bone on this thread. Who would have thought MAstercraft vs Moomba , I bet SC is laughing outloud how they pulled this one off. I new when I saw the XLV last year at the boat show that this would happen.
As for Kevin K ,I don't mind salesman giving their advise on this sight,knowing Kevin from the boatshow I think he is a professional and gives sound advise as well as many other salesman and owners on this sight. What else are they going to do during the winter.... LOL
Old    rugr            12-01-2004, 4:24 AM Reply   
J.Cox, well said. Thank you!
The delima stands. . .
anyone else?

R.
Old    upupnaway            12-01-2004, 6:52 AM Reply   
I do not see where I argued the interior in my post.
I figured that had already been covered pretty well.
The point of my post was to re-iterate the fact that sc has a hand laid hull and the same drive train, and bring this thread back to the original point.
The hull and drivetrain was brought into the equation by people who were uninformed.
There is no arguing drivetrain and hull qualities.
what the decision boils down to is options.
XLV-
You can get the manufacturers warranty.. 3 year drivetrain.
Holds 6 more people than the x-30
incredibly deep, can put out a knee high wakeboarding wake.
double ups are awesome.
wakeplate to help shape the wake on the fly.
brand new, so you will depriciate faster.
not as bling-laden as the x-30
burn alot more gas.

X-30-
Already took the new boat hit on price, will depricite slower.
awesome wake.
plush interior.
impressive name recognition.
holds only 10.
no warranty on drivetrain.




Old    bambamski            12-01-2004, 9:12 AM Reply   
X-30 is suppose to hold 12

No boat that is 23 feet will hold 16. Here's a pick of the boat off the website with 8 in it. No way 16 people can fit comfortably


You're telling me that because the XLV is 4 inches bigger it holds 4 more people in comfort?

The most you'd ever want in a boat that size is 10. Anything more and it would be a nightmare.
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       12-01-2004, 10:10 AM Reply   
Pat,

I have had 14 people in an XLV and could have fit the 2 more. 14 was comfortable though.
Old    bambamski            12-01-2004, 10:34 AM Reply   
No way, I gotta call BS on that one! Were you wakeboarding? Where did you put wetsuits on, gear, ropes, lifejackets. Did you have snacks, and beverages. Kids bouncing around when people are trying to get ready. Filling fat sacs.

Jon, you're idea of comfortable and mine are very different then. I could fit 12 people in my X-10, everyone had a seat, nobody was sitting on the floor, or playpen walkway. But it was hardly comfortable. Two more feet does not allow 4 more people to sit in comfort. How do people move around? I was in the big 25 foot Malibu last year with 12 and it was too many. I was in the Tige 24V briefly last year, not many people in it but there's no way you'd want 16. You're telling me your boat that is 1-2 feet shorter can fit more than bigger boats?

I don't think I'd want to be packed with the sardines...Maybe let someone else drive for the day and you sit with everyone else and tell me if it's comfortable.



Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       12-01-2004, 12:43 PM Reply   
Pat,

Call what you would like. Apparently you haven't seen this boat in person. It is huge!!! I had no ballast. No need for it with that much weight in the boat. I had both rear storage for ropes, vests, a wakeskate, and a wakeboard. Under the playpen I had a wakesurfer. I'm not even counting the storage under the seats and under the glove box area. I had 4 boards in the racks. For the beverages, the xlv has a built in ice box in the floor.

I've attached a pic of how we sat. Note, I always had a rider in the water. Plus, all people in the boat were under 225 lbs. Most being around 150-175. The three up front were 16 year old girls that probably weigh 125 each. It was comfortable but i wouldn't want to add any more.
Old    Marty McFly (mcfly)      Join Date: Jan 2002       12-01-2004, 12:52 PM Reply   
Not sure if this was brought up or not, but the difference between Supra and Moomba is explained pretty well here.

Hope it helps!

McFly

http://www.wakeworld.com/Articles/2004/sc1.asp
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-01-2004, 12:56 PM Reply   
i only counted 13.
Old    Jon Allen (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       12-01-2004, 1:26 PM Reply   
Joe,

13 in the boat, one in the water. I said that above. I know you're just messin.
Old    bambamski            12-01-2004, 1:28 PM Reply   
What do you do when more than 3 people want to stand up? WIth the bench along the starboard side the actual floor space with the playpen is probably smaller than a SANTE. From your diagram, the X-30 can seat the same amount of people less one because it doesn't have that bench in the walkway..

No way you can convince me that it can fit 12-16 in comfort.

From your diagram I could take my X-2 layout and say that 11 people could fit easily in comfort as well. I'm under no dillusion that I could ever do that though. I'd snap, probably kill one or more of the kids and drown a couple of the crew

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