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Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-29-2003, 1:14 PM Reply   
I just can't seem to stick the landing. I land sidways and fall on my butt. A dropped handle and a large splash follow - hahah.

thanks for any help.

http://www.wakepics.com/view_single.php?medid=8726
http://www.wakepics.com/view_single.php?medid=8725
Old                08-30-2003, 5:41 PM Reply   
i don't know cause i've never done a backroll but it looks like u need to put more wheight on your front foot when u land. It looks like the board just slips out from under u when u land (i used to skate board and this always seemed like it was a problem).
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-31-2003, 11:46 AM Reply   
anyone else?

Thanks
Old    Dave Knecht (obrienride16)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-31-2003, 1:44 PM Reply   
looks like you might have the handle too high towards the end of your rotation
Old    Timothy (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-31-2003, 1:46 PM Reply   
the first one looks really good, perhap cut a little harder all the way throughh the wake, cut away as you land.
Old    andrew (tantrum999)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-31-2003, 4:38 PM Reply   
David
your arms are too straight on landing. keep the handle (both hands) close to your body and as you come around keep the handle in and low then as increase the pull to your lead hip on landing or let go with your rear hand if you so wish.

One of the vids you start to go to revert by pulling on your back arm on landing. Your hands are a fraction high through the trick but would think about riding away then you can "tune it"

On one of the vids you just give up before you hit the water! Keep trying and expect to ride away and you will im sure.

hope this helps and EXPECT TO RIDE AWAY!
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-31-2003, 7:18 PM Reply   
Thanks for the help. I think I'm going out Tuesday morning, so hopefully I can stick one then.

Old    JR Richard (jrichard)      Join Date: Aug 2001       09-01-2003, 7:14 AM Reply   
Hi David,

Good job! You're about to land them.

IMHO, the primary issue is your cut. In the first video, you drift out, pause, and then cut in very hard and fast. If you look at the video, your cut is actually hardest right after you start cutting and slowly eases up as you approach the wake. The result is that you are going very fast at the wake but you are actually coming off edge. (The second video is much better re: the cut, but it is still much too fast.) Speed + coming off edge gives a roll that is generally fast and far. What you'd like is a back roll that is slower and goes up...so that you are coming down (as opposed to moving out) as you land. If you're generally fast and far, the landings will be skittish and slippery. Ideally, you want to land on the transition of the second wake. If you're learning the BR and landing well into the flats, then you *know* you are going too fast on your approach.

The secondary issue is handle position. I'm sure you've heard it a thousand times: keep it low and near your leading hip.

If you slow down, edge *all the way* up the wake, keep the handle lower, and look up and over your lead shoulder, you'll find: (a) the handle position falls in place, (b) you don't have "throw" the trick (as you're currently doing in the videos)...the board releasing from the water combined with the forward pull from the boat will initiate the roation. Keep in mind that the strength of your *edge* as you leave the wake determines the rotation of a BR.

Good luck!

JR
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-01-2003, 8:24 PM Reply   
How do I take the backroll "up" instead of "out" so much - is the issue simply that I'm cutting too hard? Do I just need to cut softer, but more progressively? Do I need to straighten out more at the wake to get higher?

Whoa, now I'm really overthinking this.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-01-2003, 9:41 PM Reply   
david, i agree with john in that you could edge better thru the top of the wake - tho i think basically your cut is fine. you're getting great height given that the wake is small and not peaky at all. you're only landing in the flats because the wake isn't very wide (what length of rope are you on?). but not edging thru the wake as he said may be contributing to what your main problem really is.

let me show you...

here you look fine:

good


now what the heck is this??

bad!

this is what's causing you to whip around and not be able to land properly. remember, how you leave is how you land - and this is terrible. you need to stand tall and not break at the hips like this. look at your head placement (where your eyes are looking) - the sightline is across the wake, not looking back over your shoulder anticipating the roll. your body is trying to follow your head as your legs continue the momenteum from cutting up the wake.

all of which puts you in this position coming down:

bad2

your body isn't straight and you're not ready to land. i believe this is also why you can't hold the handle properly. your center of gravity is all off. you're not evenly rotating around the handle, you're doing a whip around it following your legs.

so do everything you're doing up until that part. remember that this is basically a cartwheel - which you don't bend at waist for. you're halfway between a backroll and an o/a three here.

good luck!

(Message edited by deepstructure on September 01, 2003)
Old    JR Richard (jrichard)      Join Date: Aug 2001       09-02-2003, 9:03 AM Reply   
CS--great captures.

Before I write more, one word of caution: I describe the backroll the way I do it...it's what works for me and it's how I've visualized the trick. There are plenty of workable variations, especially in the approach to the wake.

RE: your cut--you are coming in very fast to the wake. If you're anything like me (and almost every other rider I know), coming in very fast to the wake will make you want to come off edge at the very moment you should be increasing the strength of your edge (because you're going so fast, your mind is saying "...whoa, slow down..."). That's why a progressive edge is so important...you build your edge as your approach the wake. That lets you keep your speed reasonable and have a very strong edge as you move up the wake.

The other reason that a progressive edge is so important: if you are *decreasing* the strength of your edge as you move up the wake, even if your edge is still strong, then you will have trouble with this trick. The reason is that your are decreasing the tension on the rope if you are decreasing your edge. The BR relies on tension on the rope for rotation. So I think it's hard to look at a photograph and know if the edging is adequate...since success depends, in part, on whether or not you are increasing or decreasing you edge, not just on the absolute "value" of the edge.

So, CS and I disagree a little, but not much. I think your body position on the first frame above looks good...but your edge is moderate relative to your speed. I believe what happens in the next frame is the result of that condition: you *throw* the roll. You can see that you are pushing the board toward your left hip and getting hugely bent out of shape.

CS--great catch on the head position in the second frame. A key part of the back roll is looking up and over your lead shoulder. Some people describe touching your trailing ear to your trailing shoulder as you look up.

If you have a strong edge leaving the wake (increasing edge *all the way* up the wake), keep the handle generally low and near your front hip, and look up and over your lead shoulder, you won't have to "throw" the trick...the rotation will happen because the board will continue on an upward path, your body will be pulled forward by the boat, and you will rotate (generally) around the handle.

RE: the up v. out issue. On the BR, the strength of your edge up the wake will determine your rotation, your speed into the wake will determine the distance you travel across the wake, and a combition of the two will determine the height you generate. So, given the video you showed, I'd say you need a stronger edge relative to the speed you are approaching the wake. When you're learning the backroll, it's much easier to slow down your approach and really concentrate on edging all the way up the wake (in other words, concentrate on a very progressive edge).

When I do a backroll, I typically drift in (with little to no edge) until the spray line...then I start slowly building an edge. It doesn't appear that I'm really edging until a few feet before the wake, but that's still enough. Because of my approach (relatively strong edge v. relatively slow speed), the first 1/2 of my rotation tends to be very fast...and I have more time to set up for the landing.

Hope this helps. Post back re: how you do next time.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-02-2003, 10:46 AM Reply   
very well put john. excellent advice. ya got no excuses now david! ;)
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-02-2003, 5:32 PM Reply   
Okay, I am just reading the recent posts from Chris and John, so I wasn't able to apply any of the advice that appears above. Thanks a lot for the input though, I'll be sure to take those things into consideration next time out.

I rode this afternoon and though I'd like to make excuses about what made me not land the backroll (again), I can't. I tried about 6-8 times and did exactly the same thing as I always seem to do - edge up, complete the backroll, and land halfway on the board and halfway on my butt, with the board totally sideways.

I think that the comment above about my backroll being a combination of a backroll and an OA 360 without the handle pass is pretty accurate. I feel like I'm throwing the board away from the boat, which is making me land the way I do - no chance of hanging on for a landing because all my momentum is away from the boat. I understand the methodology behind doing the cartwheel motion and landing the same way I started, but I just can't seem to do it.

I guess I'll concentrate on better head position, try to leave the wake a little more upright instead of bent at the waist, edge all the way through more consistently, and deep the handle low and at my lead hip. I will try to leave the wake as I'd like to land, and cease the whipping of the board around to make myself rotate. I'm going to have to bring a damn index card out on the water next time.

thanks again.
Old    Matt VdA (mvda)      Join Date: Dec 2002       09-03-2003, 7:57 AM Reply   
David,
You are really close. There are a lot of adjustments you could make, but I think you really only have two things in the way of sticking this.
1- Push your handle down towards your front knee as you come out of the roll.
2- Look at the boat on the landing. Try to actually focus on someone in the boat as you land.
That's all. Most of the stuff above is right, but too much info becomes noise. I think you'll stick it if you focus on just these two. Laters.
Old    JR Richard (jrichard)      Join Date: Aug 2001       09-03-2003, 8:00 AM Reply   
Good luck, David. Your videos look almost exactly like my videos when I was learning the BR. My falls were the same: either butt-check and then stand up or skate the board out sideways. And I know how you feel re: taking an index card out there...you could always write notes on your hand w/waterproof ink
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-03-2003, 11:46 AM Reply   
Thanks Matt.

Hopefully going on Friday or Saturday, so I'll give it another shot. Damn this backroll - I hope the tantrum doesn't give me near as much trouble.
Old                09-04-2003, 8:35 PM Reply   
David,
I had some problems similar to yours. Take a good cut and ride up the wake. Get your height first, to rotate move your head toward your feet and your body will follow. I disagree that you are going to fast. Hitting the wake "correct" at a high rate of speed will launch you into the air. You'll find out that speed is necessary to take this trick high as well as into the flats. Most importantly don't let go of the rope, you need it to pull you back around and land with tention.
Old                07-08-2004, 4:31 PM Reply   
spot your landing dude!

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