Competition protests

I want to throw something out there without it seeming like sour grapes. Does anybody else think all these upheld protests are nuts.

I was at Ft Worth and there were about 6 protests with riders even moving from 4th to 2nd.
Now this exciting finale has also been a shambles. Rathy gets to the final, gets protested out, loses the tour and probably the K of W as well. Nicola wins by 6 points and 45 minutes later gets protested into 2nd and losers her Q of W title.By all accounts her and Dallas rode pretty poorly (Nicola had some boat stopping issues as well)but the results should be tabulated properly.

They either need to have a "judges decision ruling is final" or the judges need to take an extra 10 minutes and get it right. They might come to the correct decision in the end but they cannot carry on raising peoples hopes and then breaking their hearts. Some of the protests are real close but 6 points??

They need to get it right the first time. Speak to Corey Bradley about protests if you don't believe me.

Well K & Q of Wake are done. Congrats to Phil and Dallas.

Wow

as long as events are judged by humans, there will always be errors. they're not perfect so it's up to the riders to point out any mistakes, if any. i don't see it as being sore losers, but competitors using what's available to them.

out of curiousity, are all protests upheld or are some overruled?

LOL, looks like the tour needs a little over haul...

I'm surprised this topic hasn't come up earlier. Obviously Chris, you're personally connected to this but I think the judging system and the protest process in wakeboarding has some major flaws. I've witnessed a lot of this first hand with Wakestock as well and I think there needs to be sweeping changes across the board.
I have a friend who's a high level snowboard judge (he'll probably be at the Olympics next year) and I've tried to explain wakeboard judging to him and he thinks it sounds crazy.
I'm not sure if there's actually a formal set of rules for protesting in wakeboarding. I've heard that if you want to protest in surfing, you have to file a written protest and it costs you $1000. Obviously there's way more prize money in surfing, but maybe this would help the situation.
There's also the whole issue of the professionalism of wakeboard judging, but I'm not going to open that can of worms.

The thing is Joe it is happening more and more. Nicola lost out by .25 of going 5 for 5 last year. Suck it up. Unless it appears outrageous.

Ask Corey about what gets upheld. He has had a lot of bad beats. I spoke to him in Dallas and he was seriously pissed. That weekend 3rd went to FIRST and 1st went to 2nd and Corey went to 3rd and out.

They HAVE to get the finals right. They have 3 divisions. It CANNOT be that difficult.

"I'm not sure if there's actually a formal set of rules for protesting in wakeboarding"

Nope. March over to the judges booth and complain. Thats it.

The IWSF events they charge you 50 euros and they NEVER change posted results.

wow. this sport will go nowhere like that

Austin has been on the wrong side of a few protest. In the PI one year he won his heat, left and came back the next day and found out he wasn't riding because of a protest. I always wondered why you weren't allowed to protest the protest or at least be present to present your side.

With that said- the only time they change a position (suppose to be this way) is if the protest rider shows a judge missed something. For instance- you look at the judges score card and see they gave you 0 credit for a 7 you threw at the end of course. They may have missed it (has happened) or they though you were out of course. They ask the other judges, driver, etc and find out it was in course, gives you credit and changes the finish of the heat. That makes sense.

What should not happen is a protest changing the results because the rider disagrees. It may have happened but not usually. I don't think there is any thing funny going on and the judges really try to do it right. Austin has missed finals a couple of times when I really thought he should have made it and the riders would say so too but nothing nefarious I believe. Just maybe not the best judging that day

There are protest rules you can download and read them at http://www.allisports.com/tour/11454/overview

I have been to all PWT events but FTW this year. I would say less than 10% of protest are successful. There were at least 3 heats this weekend where several of the "dads" were very surprised by the results. In only 1 case (from the men or Jr Men)was a protest successful.

I am not looking for conspiracies David. She might have lost. It's the way she lost. They have 3 finals. At least, at the very least get that right. Would love to see what final score they came up with?

Probably a lot just in case the loser decides to counter protest .

I think it is shambolic. I thought this back in Ft Worth already.Protest after protest.Most upheld.

Something wrong, don't you think?

Oh well it could have been worse. Nicola could have plummeted to 3rd or 4th and lost the tour title as well

im sorry, can you think of any other professional sports where they have this many protests?

I will just say from the boats perspective everyone in the boat said I did the right thing. Regardless there was no need for her to cut it that close. I am never going to take the chance of someone seriously injuring themselves. I would call it a lesson learned on her behalf.

Hey Travis, I have no problem with what happened. You made a judgement call. Nicola was upset at the time and I think it threw her but we are really ok with it. It's the whole other mess..........

The most thankless job seems to be the judges job !

I don't think I would want to do it.

But I do hate to see people get robbed, And Travis i am sure when a few folks look back they will thank you for what you did.

Nobody on here is blaming Travis for anything. I have seen some girls do some insane things, where if it wasn't for Travis they would have hit the obstacles in mid air.He makes the call and I am ok with it.

This is about protests.Nothing else. And not only Nicola. All of it.Nicola's one, unfortunately, in terms of cost just appears to be the most expensive. Maybe Rathy's as well??

Chris- I wasn't referring to your situation. I have no idea what happened. I was just saying that I think wakeboard judging has gotten a lot better and a lot less politics. I agree that the protest format could be adjusted. I think all riders should be present, not just the protestor. Let all riders have their say.

Travis- we learn at a very young age to blame the driver whenever possible. I thought you knew that. I never ski bad but boy has the driver screwed up a set.

Chris- by the way KOW and QOW conclude with Worlds. The PWT concluded today.

I know David. But Dallas cannot be overtaken ( unless something catastrophic happens) Phil will take some beating as well.

I am just upset about how it all went down that's all.Was really upset for Rathy as well. Nicola has also not worked hard enough this season. Hopefully this will light a fire under her.And she still won the tour & Masters.

Peace everybody

So I was wondering what exactly was protested? I saw where rathy went from something like 88.75 to 86 something while danny went from 88.25 to 90.5 (or something like that) in the semis. Just doesn't make sense to me how the judges can release one score (even publish it online) then come back and change it? I wasn't there so I have no idea what went down and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the decisions just wondering why it changed.

Chris, Travis made the right call with both Nicola today and Alex yesterday, saved them both from serious injury. Thanks Travis.

AGAIN. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TRAVIS!!

This is about ALL the protesting

Nice seeing you Randy.

I was not referring to Chris being upset with Travis, But I'm sure some folks can be quick with the tongue when upset( myself included when heated up)

I know of some people also questioning the judging at Reno yesterday that I had talked with.

I STILL do not have the scores from the womens final. My wife and I have actually been laughing about it now.How can you not??

Shambolic!!

Butler - 94.25
Friday - 88.25
wing - 76.23
Marquardt - 73.25
Smith - 68

Heat 2 mens...

wtf??? i can see upping a score.....but droppin rathy's??? honestly should be once scores are posted they should stay that way.....they dont go back and alter any other sports games bc the officials screwed up and missed a play....this is bs...i dont have anything against the riders or whatnot....but this is just ridiculous

(Message edited by tchs22 on August 16, 2009)

Judging events like this is freakin hard and a totally thankless job. Sometimes judgement mistakes are made but as long as the rules are clear and they are followed then you can't ask for anything more.

You know I hate to even say this, but the is something to be said about the points system.......


let the hating begin.

andy its like the BCS huh? bound to have hatred if you change it and hatred if ya dont :/

Why not video the run in case of protest? Do like the NFL and only allow someone to protest X number of times. Allow the judges to review the video themselves if they deem it worthy to do so. I'm not 100% sure how the scoring works but it has to be subjective to some extent.

I'll call BS on it. I just understand how they can lower someones score because the other rider does not like the outcome! I'll try this on the wife & see how it works around here.

In the IWSF system you can only change a score for a tabulation error, not sure on the WWA.

I'm not totally familiar with wakeboard judging, either, but I hear WAY more complaints about it than the judging from any other extreme/action sport. +1 for some sort of video review.

Unfortunately I think it's the nature of the sport. How can you judge one thing against another. I may think a whirly 5 is the sickest trick while someone else might think a 720 is more difficult. I don't know the ins and outs of the system but that is the problem with trying to judge a subjective sport. How do you compare the level of difficulty in different tricks with the heights of others. In a local tournament yesterday I judged a kid who stuck 2 more tricks because he wanted to ride 3 mph slower and a shorter line. He had more time than the other guys.

At a local tournament it isn't the end of the world win or loose but when your on the bubble for a King of Wake point chase its a much bigger deal.

At the same time, when you bring video review into this you get much more like a slalom ski tournament where you have different class tournaments and need to have a certain amount of judges and cameras in place and what not... it gets more about the stats and less about the feeling of relaxed riding.

+1 for all riders being present, -1 on the video replay is my vote. In a sport like this I'm all about first impression on the judges, not a replay of how many inches of height the rider had or how many seconds the grab actually lasted for.

^ agreed, its all in the way the judges see the trick.... if our average boat load was judging raleys and tantrums would win over a 720 every single day.... clearly it isn't that way on the tour but I agree that its amlost too objective.

In the NFL a touchdown is a touchdown, in wakeboarding a switch ts 7 or switch back 5, who knows... just depends what that given judge likes to see.

Maybe they should just make everyone do that same exact tricks, then whoever does them best wins.

thats some bull

They can't add to one riders score without taking away from another because there are fixed points for each placement in each category. Based on the change of 2.25 points up and down they switched the order for the spin category.

What exactly did Danny achieve by getting Rathy out of the finals?? Would Aaron have done it to him if so much was at stake for Danny??
Aarons parents are two of the nicest people I have met and have been around the circuit for a long time.His dad is pretty much stunned by what happened.
Makes the shambolic womens judging seem almost insignificant.

Not Danny's finest hour.

I think it is BS that a rider can go to the judges and asked for his\her score to be changed and the do it!!!

Suck it up and ride better next time! To me it seem a little childish.

WWA is having a judges clinic at Worlds. That may be a good place to find out more about the judging and raise questions.



WWA Hosts Judge Clinic During 2009 WWA Wakeboard World Championships on August 27th in Orlando !



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



August 7, 2009



On opening day of the 2009 WWA Wakeboard World Championships in Orlando , the WWA will host a Judges Clinic at the Radisson Hotel in downtown Orlando .

The clinic is for anyone interested in learning about the WWA judging criteria and systems; this includes riders, parents, media, spectators, or anyone that wants to gather more info on learning more about the WWA judging systems. Completion of the clinic also meets WWA requirements of a level one certified judge.

The three-hour class will start promptly at 5pm on August 27th; the cost is $50 USD to attend and includes all course materials. Spaces are limited and the clinic will be capped, so it’s important to fill out your registration form and send it in immediately if you plan to take part.

The clinic will go through the WWA Rule Book, the Judging Criteria for any and all wake events, Judging Categories and the different Judging Systems the WWA utilizes, Judge Sheet explanations and tips, how the Seeding and Ranking system works, and the different Levels of WWA Officials.

To register for the WWA Judges Clinic, please fill out the registration form below and send it to EventOrganizer@thewwa.com

You will receive an email confirming you’re spot for the clinic. For any further questions please contact the WWA at (407) 362-7841

REGISTRATION FORM

Maybe they need to lock all the best riders in the world in a room together, get a white board and a moderator and go over from top to bottom the easiest low scoring tricks to the hardest high scoring tricks and give them actual values. And, if the trick is grabbed this way it's harder, grabbed this way it's easier, and assess points accordingly. The riders make the tour, step up fellas and take control. The whole question of style is where it gets screwed up in my mind. What is style? What may be "good" style to one judge might be "not so good" to another. It needs to be made as objective as possible......the subjectivity needs to be taken out as much as it can. I've been in the judges booth at a comp and I've actually watched guys write down scores. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. Objectivity is the answer. .02 IMO

This is hard to actually explain in writing but with respect Aaron, I don't think is subjectivity.You cannot protest subjectivity. How are you going to change somebody's perception of how you rode an hour after the event??

They (the judges) seem to be missing entire tricks in peoples passes."You did a back 7? Really?? Ohhh,Ok, well that certainly changes things". That is what gets changed. Taking points from the winner and attributing them to the loser.It's almost like the whole pass happens at such bewildering speed that they cannot keep pace.

These are not isolated incidents. This is happening more and more.And the earlier post about 10% being upheld?? I think it is a lot higher.

In my mind this is going to set a precedent for it to become worse and worse.
You lose? Go and protest! Nobody will know. Not even the person you are protesting about. Unless it is upheld of course.

Either the judges decision is final or make it $500 to launch a protest.

That will put the brakes on.

There has always been such a good camraderie among such fierce competitors in wakeboarding.Worldwide.This is not helping.

I hear what you are saying Chris. You know a lot more about it than I do, for sure. I love the sport and I just want to see a bit more legitimacy brought to the competitions. But, I also understand that the sport is never going to be black and white. Tons of grey in wakeboard contests.

To your point Chris, it sounds to me that the protesting clause in the rules and regulations book needs to be overhauled a little

well how do they do it it in snow boarding? figure skating? or any other olympic sport that is also subjective? the sport will never grow unless they fix this system. NOW.

Don't throw Danny under the bus. After the heat the riders have a pretty good feel for where it lands. If you see someone beat you in a category that you are pretty confident you won then you protest. The judges will go thru the pass with you in that category. They will only make a change if they get new info that should change the result. It is not like the rider goes up there and says "I think my ride was so much better and my style and amplitude was way better so please change this". Danny makes his living competing. There is now way you can expect him to forfeit a chance at winning at a professional comp when he may have a very good reason for questioning the result.

I agree they can improve the system. You have to have some type of mechanism to review a call. Charging a protest fee would kill the riders who are losing money going to comps in the first place unless you have a parent or one of the top 5 or 6 who makes money.

Chris, this is the pros.. Not amature leagues. If hard felt like he deserved to make the final and have a chance to win, he is going to take it. It doesn't matter who you have to knock out to do that. Watch a surf contest, a world title could depend on one heat win and I can tell you that the other guy isn't going to blow the heat. Danny was probably concerned about getting in the top 10 so he did what he had to do.

well maybe the judging needs to be fixed so there is no need to protest? just a thought.

i know it's a tough split second call for travis a lot of times. safety 1st for women and children. if it's pro men finals i say just drive. i don't know that he's ever had to keep one of them from going into the side of the transfer though.

i saw jd webb not make it to the next round one time and he was pretty bummed. another rider from a different heat was really trying to get him to protest. jd didn't because he knew he should have just ridden better.

having to pay to protest makes sense. i know they do that in other sports.

Kyle, I hear what you are saying,I understand what you are saying and I respect your opinion. I feel differently. What was at stake for Danny and what was at stake for Aaron was enormously different in terms of reward.

All it has done has caused huge animosity. How can it not?


As a matter of interest did Austin protest when Harley JUST squeaked past him in the quarters to take 2nd??

Ya, there was .25 between Harley & Andrew's score to go to the finals - did Andrew protest??? of course if he did and persuaded the judges, like Danny did, that would have changed the outcome again.

I agree - pay for protest - put your money where your mouth is. And at the least have all affected parties present when they "re-judge".

What were the grounds of the protest that Harf took? Did he say the judges missed a trick and then that put him over the edge? If this was the case or something like that then he deserves to be in the final because he was scored unfairly. It doesn't matter that
Rathy didn't make it. Rathy knew what he had to do and that run was probably the biggest of the season for him and he obviously didn't perform to his best abilities in it.

was there anything for Austin to protest? It's a system, it's developed so that if something needs changed, it can be.

I do find it odd that you weren't there, don't know all the details, but are on here crying about the situation, what it has caused, and how bad everything is. There's an easy way to change that other than chiming on here every 5 minutes and that is to GET INVOLVED and understand everything before blowing something up that happens at every comp.

A-dub. Gee what a surprise.Bet you if Nicola had protested you would be on here screaming about that.

And I don't know the details?? How do you know??

I do find it ODD that you have decided to ignore the general thread and have a go at me. What a surprise.

You gonna mention my dogs as well??

i don't know any details, and I was not there. Protests are part of it. I think they are a necessary evil in order to maintain a balanced system. Many other sports have them, and at higher frequencies, and the systems always have to be designed for them. This time it was a game changer, but most of the time they are not upheld, unless something needed to be changed. Why would a rider not want to move on if they could/should? Other peoples' circumstances shouldn't matter, gotta pay the bills.

I think there are better places to complain about the system than WW.

Also, who is Rathy dating these days? ;)

(Message edited by johnsvt on August 17, 2009)

Fine and I respect your opinion.Just don't make it personal. We all see differently.

I am a lot more upset for what happened with Rathy than with what happened to Nicola.The mens comps are much, much more competitive and difficult to win. I believe Nicola is talented enough to be able to win with some to spare.Hopefully this will finally motivate her

I also think that a lot more protests are upheld than people realize. And if that is the case the judging needs to be looked at. These are peoples careers they are making decisions on.

Nicola is dating AARON RATHY.

I see where you are going. Mmmmm interesting. Lol.

Idiocy!!

This thread makes me glad my dad always encouraged me to take part in sports/events that required me to either cross the finish line first or score more points to win.

I don't think you could pay me enough to judge a wakeboard event and driving...I would have probably wrecked 3-4 boats because I hit them dern stupid aframes/funbox.

If you ride so good that there is no chance to lose in a protest you have nothing to worry about.

hey Chris if you do know the details then you should enlighten us.. If Rathy got screwed by the judges that blows. But starting this thread without giving any details of what went down actually puts Danny in a bad light because most people on here don't know what went down. If Danny thought he rode better than Rathy and was misjudged he has every right to complain about it. Just because he's not competing for the overall top spot doesn't make him loose his right to complain if he feels misjudged. What if he hadn't complained and Rathy had moved on to the finals and taken the tour title? Yeah that would have been fair to Harley....

Wakeboarding is an individual sport where the best rider should win based on his/her runs. Who has the most at stake shouldn't affect ones placing.

Rathy would have done the same thing to Harf,

I would have done the same thing to Rathy.

If its that close in a judged event I think you should always go over the results to make sure there are no errors.

It does not matter at all what was at stake for each athlete. Did Harf and Rathy both pay their entry fee's for this contest? I'm pretty sure Harf's entry fee entitled him the same opportunities as Rathy's entry fee.

Must i quote the movie "Ride the Wake" ?

Whats her face got mad at whats his face for falling on the flipty doo or whatever purposely. Should Harf have pulled a Ride the Wake move and let him move on?

Its competition baby, the american dream.

I heard that Harley didn't kill it this weekend and was very lucky to get by Austin and Andrew but neither protested. I wasn't there but someone told me Andrew could have easily been made second and that Austin had a perfect run and should have beat him. I doubt it was to help Harley though. SH** happens.

I never, ever said anyone got screwed.

It's the whole business of posting scores and THEN changing them after a protest.If they can get it right the 2nd time around why not get it right before they post the scores? Why does the rider have to continually go and check the scorecards?

The person that loses out is left with the perception of being hard done by.And with a feeling of being victimised. THAT is the problem. I have spoken to Pro riders that it has happened to and the feeling is Always the same. They feel like they are the victims.

And then there is the animosity that is sown between the loser and the protester.There will always be mistakes with any human involvement. I just feel that it is on the increase in the judging.

as an outsider, and not a tour parent like most of this board, i think this is the result of being a pro athlete in such a small sport.

there is a lot less to go around and unfortunately, politics matter.

sucks to put in all the training and dedication, then have politics pull the rug out...i'm sure the recession isn't helping any.

"Rathy would have done the same thing to Harf"

He might of? But maybe he wouldn't have?
People are complicated and respond differently to situations.

We cannot judge people on what we would have done.

something i've noticed for quite along time - at least in the men, that since the sport is small, there are only so many sponsor positions to go around...if you are a new rider, you hvae to decisively ride better than established riders to gain exposure for yourself, simply riding as good as the top guys, you won't have an entry in....

Nicola just called me and told me her "whole protest story" She was alteady back at the hotel when they called her to tell her to come back.

As i said earlier if they call you it's to tell you you have lost. You are not even present when you are protested against.

And then the explanation from the judges - " yeah I meant to write this and I wrote that" I wasn't really concentrating so I missed that" and "So and so (the protester) has pointed out that....." And so on and so on ........

These are the judges for a pro sport and this is some of the stuff you have to listen to.And by the way you are not debating at this stage. You have already lost. Wouldn't you be upset??

100% true - from the outside it seems you have to "knock out the champion" so to speak...

Also Joe, what about the other side of the coin - "if you ride so good you don't have to worry about PROTESTING"

I think for the first time I feel bad for professional wakeboarders. I sure am thankful that wakeboarding means nothing to me but fun, sore knees and the occasional post set beer.

The sport is too small for a judging issue to get between people that should be friends. Make a judgement and stick with it! When it comes to peoples livelihood, get it right the first time!

There should be no changes after the judges make their final decision. With something as subjective as wakeboarding, there will usually NEVER be clear cut winners. There is always room for interpretation. However, a judging sheet like the one I see for Heat 2 above, should never be changed.

YES, once the judges have made the ruling & signed off it should be a done deal - no protesting! Like it was said earlier, maybe the judges need to take a few extra minutes to get the scores out to be sure they are correct.

It seems to dilute the legitimacy of the sport by announcing who won, or who moved on to the next heat, only to have it protested and CHANGE!!!

Hope there are positive changes as a result to the feedback!!!

wakeboarding has always been this way. the tour has a alot of problems..... i look at the tour as a big show... dont get me wrong the riders are amazing.... but i think at time newer riders are not given the same eye and chance that the "top 10" are.

seems like wrestling to me sometime.... ha. funny to think of it that way... but the same 10 riders are always on top until they get dropped or their career fades from a prominent tour sponsor.

it is a great way for wakeboarders to make a living and i respect what the do. the bottomline is though... it's all about the gate, beer and merch sales. one big traveling show.

my 2 cents.

^^^the wrestling comparison makes sense. everyone on tour does seem to have a cheesy nickname...

Big Heavy, "...sure am thankful that wakeboarding means nothing to me but fun, sore knees and the occasional post set beer. "

Amen, you guys are nuts, it sounds like a high school lunch room, Aaron did this to Danny, so Danny totally got him back.... you guys hear with Nicola did to Dallas, OMG I KNOW!!!!

and now its even better with top women riders dating the men riders.... let the chaos begin!

I will agree that if there are protests then all the riders involved should be present. Calling them up on the phone way after the fact to inform them that their result has been altered does not seem fair to me. I don't think that it would be fair to institute a large fee for filing a protest. There seems to be a lot of talk about how hard it can be financially for guys to ride the tour who are not already big names in the sport. Also, protests could really be the only way for judging errors to be fixed, so I don't think that they can be removed from the system. I think that video should be used by the judges, maybe only for one time though after the run to re-evaluate their initial scores. I just watched the video for the Reno finals that Chad Sharpe just posted up and it was great. If the judges could use a video like that after a heat to review their scores I think that would help a lot. How could that harm the sport? Also, as far as trying to eliminate the subjectivity of the judges from the sport, that is impossible to do without ruining the comp all together. It would make for the most repetitive riding and it would get so boring. Maybe lengthening the course or giving the riders a third pass would allow for the differentials between riders to grow. The run would still be subjectively judged, but maybe with more time available to the riders they could more easily make themselves stand out.