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Old     (deltadave)      Join Date: Mar 2005       03-08-2005, 10:26 AM Reply   
Anyone know anything about Epic wake boats? www.epic
boats.com. New company out of San Diego? Based on Toyota Epic or all new company?
Old     (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-08-2005, 10:53 AM Reply   
Looks like a new company to me, the site isn't even functional. It also says no ballast is needed. The Toyota boats needed ballast because they were originally designed for waterskiing(no wake)
Old     (villageidiot)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-08-2005, 11:00 AM Reply   
It's an entirely new company -- not at all affiliated. Though they have been active on our forum re: the new boats, they didn't realize Toyota made boats until after they had already decided on a name (check for posts on www.epicmarine.com by Chris A).

As to the Toyota ballast issue, the Epic SX (v-drive) and Epic X22 (d-drive) each came stock with ballast. The SX ballast is a "wet floor" with three different tanks (I believe) that was actually pretty innovative at the time the boat was introduced. The X22 has a 70 gallon bag in the trunk, and with some bow weight, throws a great fairly-rampy wake for a d-drive.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-08-2005, 6:11 PM Reply   
Our official launch date is set for March 26, with a public showing on April 2nd. I would love to dive into the details here but I hope it will suffice to say that this is a completely new kind of Wake Boat that has been completely designed for hardcore wakeboarders. Everyone involved with the company has a strong dedication to wakeboarding and frequent WakeWorld. We love to wakeboard and have built a dream boat to fit our needs and hopefully those of most hardcore wakeboarders. I look forward to sharing more information with WakeWorlders in the future but for now I will be happy to answer any basic questions until the launch. And sorry about the website, we had to put up a front page to deal with trademark issues but did not want to expand on it until we officially launched.

Boat basics are: 22'9" open bow with a 98" beam, comfortable seating for 14, standard: resin infused hull and deck, LARGE integrated ballast, perfectpass wakeboard pro, hot water shower, heater with 3 vents(2 Euro pull-outs), 8 speaker stereo with 2 wired remotes and 10" sub, Titan Tower with racks and mirror, 2 built in ice chests, fiberglass swimstep, large combo gauges, depth finder, clock and all LED interior lighting and navigation lighting.
Old     (speakersox)      Join Date: Sep 2004       03-08-2005, 7:50 PM Reply   
How can someone in the boat building business not know that Toyota once made boats? It has only been a few years.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-08-2005, 9:54 PM Reply   
To be honest, I think all of us at Epic Boats had heard about Toyota Marine at the time we started development but when batting around names no one associated "Epic" with Toyotas' line of boats names, “The Epic SX, X22, and S22". I guess never seeing one in SoCal at the time had something to do with it(actually we still haven't seen a Toyota in the flesh). But the name has stuck so :-) Keep in mind that this boat has been in R and D for nearly 3 and a half year now.

And skibum69 - I believe it says "no additional ballast is needed" as this boat will have significantly more stock ballast than any other boat on the market. I believe MB Sports is topping the list at 2,500lbs at the moment, soo...we have decided on the PCM 6.0l V8 with 375hp standard to run this v-drive wake machine :-)
Old     (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-09-2005, 5:08 AM Reply   
Thanks for the correction
Old     (ccwhite)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-09-2005, 5:30 AM Reply   
Be sure to post pic of your boat and pricing when your ready
Old    zboomer            03-09-2005, 8:58 AM Reply   
Sounds awesome man, good luck on it!
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyler       03-09-2005, 9:19 AM Reply   
pretty cool, a totally new line of boats. Just hope they learned from Session
Old     (villageidiot)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-09-2005, 9:42 AM Reply   
Chris has been very cool about keeping the epicmarine.com crew in the loop with his new line, and has had long discussions with us to get input on his designs. Since Toyota is one of the more recent to join the industry -- and one of the more recent to bail out -- we figured we might be a good source of information for him. I'd guess it's not easy trying to build a new boat entirely from scratch without a reputable brand name to hide behind. And who knows, he might have something on his boat that will change the look and features of other boats in the future...you never know. Props should go to Chris and the rest of his crew for their efforts. I'm excited to see their first finished product.
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-09-2005, 10:36 AM Reply   
what happened to these guys?
http://www.elanboats.com/
Old     (deltadave)      Join Date: Mar 2005       03-09-2005, 10:41 AM Reply   
Elan boats .... the old American Skier boat .. again and no V-drive? Who cares?
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-09-2005, 10:51 AM Reply   
this just reminded me of them... i participated in designing their towers.

Epic sounds like they're taking a good approach so far. good luck!
Old     (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-09-2005, 10:59 AM Reply   
They are still around, Elan boats. They have an agreement with West Marine. There has been a Vdrive with tower at my local store for about a year. I doubt they've sold any, this one has had a torn up prop since the first week they put it out. Interestingly, they are using the old Waketank idea, a ballast container hung off the swim platform.

elanwaketank
Old     (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-09-2005, 11:01 AM Reply   
This one has a Boss tower on it. There is a huge hump in the back where the engine is, and the boat is kind of spartan. I think they're advertising around 45k for the boat w/tandem trailer.
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-09-2005, 11:03 AM Reply   
what does resin infused hull and deck mean?
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-09-2005, 11:04 AM Reply   
weird - i was working with Skyjac. maybe they didn't get the contract.
Old     (goodtime)      Join Date: Sep 2002       03-09-2005, 11:14 AM Reply   
Come out for the launch party and checky check it out. I had the chance to drive the prototype and it surpassed all of my expectations. double ups are fun, and i like swamping fisherman with giant rollers. Lockness style

resin infused is this crazy process having to do with nasa materials and makes the boat 1000x stronger than any hand laid boat. It is similar to vacume bagging but more exstensive. its just gnarly, thats all i know.
Old     (deltadave)      Join Date: Mar 2005       03-09-2005, 11:49 AM Reply   
Nice Elan ... only 45k? What a deal.
Old    zboomer            03-09-2005, 12:29 PM Reply   
Re. "resin infused." 1000x stronger than hand-laid eh?

And we all know that hand laid hulls suck, and fail all the time, therefore the need for something 1000x stronger. :-)

Sorry Todd, that is about the most non-technical description of a process I've ever read, lol.

Reminds of of how a surfer would describe how he rides a wave, heheh.
Old     (goodtime)      Join Date: Sep 2002       03-09-2005, 12:45 PM Reply   
im not a scientist bro bra, i just drive boats and hold onto a rope behind them. The process is pretty killer, ill get some info up soon so everyone can understand better. thanks for the tip boomer.

its like tech n stuff. u knowzzzz hahah jk
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-09-2005, 1:32 PM Reply   
Hey, I'm no expert, so please feel free to skip. Just offering some somewhat dated info on the infusion topic.


Assuming this is like VARTM (vacuum-assisted resing transfer molding)... The process goes like this: start with a slightly beefed-up mold, cut your dry fabric to fit (many layers, reinforcements, etc.), then pull a special vacuum bag over it and suck it down. The vacuum bag is sucking air from several locations, and it fully compresses the fabric into a nice tight package. Once vacuum's pulled, resin is mixed and then released into the bag from several locations at once. On one side of the part, you've got Mr. Hoover sucking; on the other side you got Mr. Resin flowing. The resin flows until it reaches the vacuum port and once the whole part is infused with resin, the resin supply is secured and the part is allowed to cure.

The best thing Californians like about this particular process is that there is like zero emissions for the EPA and Osha to harp on.

The part quality is really good for a few reasons. First off, any part that's cured under vacuum is gonna just rock. No voids, pure saturation, layers of fabric all snuggled up against eachother, tight fit to the mold surface, nice clean backside to the part, etc.

However, not all bagged parts are created equally. If you 'hand lay' a fabric (actually meaning that you hand-saturate it with resin and then hand-remove the excess) before bagging, you're gonna end up with a pretty high resin-to-fiber ratio and you could even have some variance in that ratio across the part.

The next-best thing is to do the full hand-saturation and excess removal thing, then lay a perforated release cloth directly on the wet part, with some absorbant like paper towels on top of that. When you lay a bag over that and suck it down, the vacuum pulls the fabric down to the mold surface, and all excess resin is pushed out of the part, through the release fabric and into the absorbant. After curing, you just strip off the now-hard absorbant and then pull the release fabric off the part. You're left with probably the lowest resin-to-fabric ratio possible outside of the REAL expensive prepreg stuff. That ratio means that most of the weight of the part comes from the fabric. It just so happens that most of the strength comes from the fabric, too. It's a super good part, but there's the extra costs associated with having to buy absorbant, release cloth and to some extent, you're wasting resin by overwetting then removing it.

With VARTM, the fabric's sucked down before you juice it. This means that although the fabric ends up thoroughly-saturated, it never has an excess amount. It's properly-wetted to a low resin ratio from the git-go. Nice.

Two things you can do to improve that process: post-cure the part (let it cure and then heat it) and to stitch the fabric layers together before infusing. This latter is seldom done, but really helps the part to withstand damage better. If done right, it could even enable a manufacturer to do a very important job (placing and orienting all the pieces) at a different location or time. Then the relatively unskilled guy just places the big fabric part into the mold and sucks it down.
Old     (antbug)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-09-2005, 1:33 PM Reply   
Todd ~ When is the launch party so I can come and checky check it out.
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-09-2005, 1:40 PM Reply   
any issues with the factory ballast re USCG rating, liability coverage, etc?
Old     (goodtime)      Join Date: Sep 2002       03-09-2005, 2:13 PM Reply   
March 26th LAUNCH PARTY
Old     (antbug)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-09-2005, 2:37 PM Reply   
ok next question is.... Where?
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-09-2005, 9:34 PM Reply   
Wow, you guys are quick: First off, thanks for the kind words Cal And Boomer :-)

Second, Todd is much better at hitting double-ups than he is at explaining any boat building specifics:-)

And, Derek is just gonna have to come down and see our new 15,000 square feet of fun in Diego so we can get all TECHNICAL on the infusion stuff...

Basically, Derek's VARTM definition is spot on with a few little wrinkles thrown in to make the process that much more complex and effective. The end result is a really strong hull with very low resin to glass ratios. Does a wake boat NEED to be that strong??? Well, when you are pulling the kind of weight we are talking about I'd say YES. And it makes the boat very durable (not just the hull but gel-coat and all the things attached to the hull/deck, tower, accessories, underwater gear ect.) and it gives you a heck of a firm ride, this boat just slices through double-ups like a gin sue knife :-) It is just a good way to build a fiberglass product like this.

And anyone who has gone to the website and seen my horrible excuse for a front page, I apologize. The site is not ready for launch and I am the designer who had to put up something quick for some trademark issues. I put up a pic of a sample I was working on and it has a reference to Level 10 Magazine. Epic Boats has never been reviewed by Level 10 Magazine and I apologize to anyone involved with the magazine that I may have offended by the reference. It was just an example of how the front page might look once it is done(obviously it needs a lot of work). But it shows one of our goals is to be reviewed by quality magazines such as Level 10. I have removed this reference from the front page pic.

Trace - The USCG regulations are pretty minimal on boats over 20' at the moment. I'm sure they are looking at wake boats and the weight issue but for now it is mostly an industry regulated matter. Liability is a whole different ball of wax that I don't even want to touch on...

As for the launch, we are launching information on the product and the website on March 26th and we are showing the boat at a launch party on April 2nd in San Diego. If you are interested in coming out just e-mail me: chris.anthony@epicboats.com and I will give you the details as they are made available. It will probably just be a showing of the boat with some "pro" riders to show off wake with a few rides given to party goers(depending on the weather) to get a feel for the boat up close.

(Message edited by cla17 on March 09, 2005)
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-09-2005, 11:02 PM Reply   
Oh, I forgot to say thanks to Nacho and that I think Sessions makes a pretty cool offering. Their Whale Tale seems pretty innovative and the boat definitely has a lot style to it. I've seen a couple at different shows. Their interior is really nice and you can see a lot of nice fit and finish touches that a lot of other boats lack.
Old    zboomer            03-10-2005, 5:30 AM Reply   
Chris, if you want a good web page just put some hot chicks on it, like Monster Tower.

Sounds like a good idea to me. :-)
Old     (ccwhite)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-10-2005, 7:13 AM Reply   
Boomer is all about the hot chick angle... not that thats a bad thing.

BTW - put some hot chicks on your web page, like Reef (just a little 1up there boomer)
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-10-2005, 8:39 PM Reply   
Hey Chris, better go easy on the Reef chick angle; there's some pretty vocal and immeasurably intelligent WWW (wakeworld women) down there in the SD. Could stir up a big ugly thread or something, and said thread could be loaded with all kinds of big words.

Peace, Chris. You're my idol for actually getting this baby to water.
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-10-2005, 11:28 PM Reply   
Maybe just a little "BOYS ONLY" link to the goods with the Reef Girls and such. But I don't want to steal to much of Bill's(Monster Tower's) thunder with his hotties and all. And Derek, your my idol for even trying to explain VARTM in a WW post :-)
Old     (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-10-2005, 11:56 PM Reply   
Chris,
There are plenty of hot girls to go around, you will not piss off anybody by putting them on your new boats, in ads, on the tower, in ski lockers, etc.

Derek is the king of long posts, he doesn't cut and paste, it is all off the cuff. He is a Super Genius. He needs to come work with me.
Old     (ldr)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-11-2005, 1:03 AM Reply   
i have researched the whole fiberglass thing and i was wondering why someone in the ski boat market hasn't taken up your current approach to laying fiberglass sooner. If i remember correctly from my research i found that open molds are no longer allowed in california do to the toxins released into the atmosphere. I figured areas like merced-Atwater (malibu centurion MB sport calabria) and Fresno (sanger) must be grandfathered in. I actually asked the guy doing the tour at malibu about it and he had no idea what i was talking about. I'm just curious if you chose the process that you did because you couldn't do open molds anymore?
Anyways like i said earlier i feel that the closed mold method does yeild a better product.
Good Luck in your endeavors and i look forward to seeing your product soon.
Old     (ccwhite)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-11-2005, 5:20 AM Reply   
Hey Im not sexist at all.. Ive got no problem with there being 'Epic Guys' to go w/ the 'Epic Chicks'.
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       03-11-2005, 7:29 PM Reply   
The SD WWW have smacked me twice (see "surfing sucks" and "I'm going to hell for wearing 1-month contacts 3-months" posts). I take back the "surfing sucks", btw. And I changed my contacts, mom.

The other cool thing I always wanted to try was a 'molded bag'. Sure it'd work better on your smaller, more complex parts, but it's basically this - get a real expensive two-part silicone mix and pour it over a part that's been sucked down and cured. The liquid cures into a souped-up, form-fitting vacuum bag. And it's silicone, so supposedly you don't have to worry about it sticking to the part.

Matthew, good point about being grandfathered. The emissions thing is yet another reason that companies might want to look outside Cali. Maybe it's the abundance of under-the-table labor that keeps a lot of them here.

As far as Chris goes, he's just plain pimp enough to know that no venture is worth leaving the home that you love. MAN UP !!!!
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-11-2005, 7:30 PM Reply   
Well Matthew, there are some new regulations on open mold production but they don't prohibit the practice by any means. There are sooooo many things from spas to RV parts that are made via open mold fabrication, that it will be a looonnnggg time before they completely ban the process. That having been said, we arrived at our current resin infusion process because we know it is the best way to build the kind of parts we are using to manufacture our new line of boats. Part are simply stronger, more durable, and longer lasting when built with infusion vs a hand lay-up. Not that hand laid parts aren't any good, it all depends on the tolerances and quality you require for the fiberglass part you are building.

And ccwhite - If I'm the one maintaining our site I would rather not have to produce "sexy" male content for our female Epic Boats supporters to enjoy, but maybe when we outsource, (are you wanting to be in the first calendar for the females?) :-)
Old     (ldr)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-12-2005, 1:12 PM Reply   
Thanks for the feedback. i also wondered what the cost was compared to hand lay up and if the cost benefit was worth it. I know that the runabout industry is going this way but they also make more boats so it may be more worth their while. i also have heard that the curing time is much shorter than hand lay up is that true
sorry about all the questions. This is just something i'm very interested in. In a year i'll have my industrial technology degree and i'd love to work in the boating industry.
Old     (ccwhite)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-14-2005, 5:39 AM Reply   
Chris A - If the women like middle aged, out of shape balding men.. then sure, Ill pose for ya in a banana hammock :-)
Old    zboomer            03-14-2005, 9:10 AM Reply   
Dude, don't give me that image!
Old     (ccwhite)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-14-2005, 9:59 AM Reply   
You just wait till April 3rd Boomer :-)
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-14-2005, 7:31 PM Reply   
Did you say Banana Hammock? I don't know if I'm comfortable with this thread anymore Maybe you could just pose with the girls ccwhite in plain old board shorts, then the pics don't look sexist and everyone is happy :-)

And Matthew - It all depends on your production volume and style, as to weather it costs more to do a close mold process. Example, Sea Ray builds all their boats with matched closed molds in a infusion style process. They have robots that spray the gel-coat and chopped strand mat and then infuse it between the two molds instead of via a bag. This of course takes a MAJOR tooling investment, but when you are building their kind of volume it save them a bundle in the end. Of course their method is used purely for ease of manufacturing and not really for the strength aspect(mostly because they use mat instead of cloth). Other people build their parts with vacuum to add strength and save weight but they may also hand lay parts, as well. For these companies it is probably more expensive to infuse than to hand-lay glass. In any case tooling up a factory to do anything new is always expensive, and then there is training issues, and testing and improving the process(scraping a boat due to lamination issues is an expensive pill to swallow)
Old     (ccwhite)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-15-2005, 5:21 AM Reply   
Chris A - that works for me!! Guys like me, buy this boat and get chicks like this!!

Just send me travel money and ill be in S.D. for your kickoff party :-)
Old    zboomer            03-15-2005, 5:24 AM Reply   
This glass infusion process sounds cool, I'd like to see it in action. Any photos?

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