is a off axis spin a invert for INT?

I wonder if a off axis spin is classified as a invert or not. I can't do them nor do I know if I ever will want to .

it's an off-axis spin, so no, it's not classified as an invert. although, raleys are considered inverts.

Is a whirly considered a mobe for INT?

Squid, off axis spins are a spin trick, if you can do a scarecrow the off axis 5 is the same move with a handle pass, not as hard as you think. In INT Off axis spins are + 100 points.
Matt, a Whirly is a mobe trick in INT.

Stupid ? but for people new to the sport is there a web site that explains what every trick is?

grabs

tricks

Joe cool site. How did Orlando go?

orlando was suh-WEEEEEEEEET! i'm looking forward to may when we go back! keep an eye out for a teaser coming soon!

Did you figure out a concrete date? Scott

I mean for May?

Joe, and Randy thanks. At one time when the board went above the handle it was a invert. Just making sure for a friend.

In advanced you can do so many inverts and if he did a o/a spin it could bump him into a higher
class.

scott, no, no set date yet.

http://www.intleague.com/divisions/index.html
Scroll down to wakeboard and click on division rules. This expalins the tricks and grabs for INT.

Joe- where is ladera ranch? I see you live there and I was wondering if it is Orange COunty.

Squid, if I'm not mistaken, in INT Advanced you only get a total of 3 inverts in both passes. You can do 4 variations of a spin, i.e. off-axis, grabbed, not grabbed, grabbed in a different location. Advanced riders also CANNOT do any 5's.

I personally don't like to spin variation thing. If you can do a 3, I think that they should let you have more points for grabbing than they do now. I think its lame to see someone do 3-4 3's in a run. INT should change the Advanced class and give them another invert. The advanced division is a tricky class for those that are in it.

You gonna make it to some comps this year?

david, yeah, ladera ranch is in orange county...east of mission viejo, north of san juan capistrano.

Brandon, thanks this helps alot.
I am also with you on the grab spin score. What is also strange is that For a BS roll its 1050 and for a 360 is 1050 a 360 should be at least 100 to 200 more. I think a 360 is harder than a bs roll. I am sure now that there will be a pro divison there will be a lot of changes.


The only way for it to get changed is for us the riders help to change it.



(Message edited by twakess on March 25, 2006)

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quote:

Oh ya Taylor M sorry for the stupid? I thought this was what the message board was for to ask ? we didn't know.

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squid, i don't think he's saying you're asking a stupid question. he's saying that his question might be stupid when he was asking for a site that list tricks.

(Message edited by dakid on March 25, 2006)

Ya Joe, guess I read it wrong. Sorry about.

Brandon,

We are constantly working on improving our scoring system and have recognized the need to revamp some of the rules. If a rider is doing the variations of all those spins you talk about in our advance class, my bet is they know more than just 3 inverts. It is a responsibility of the state coordinators to handle riders not riding in the proper division. These riders should be encouraged to bump to the proper class. The pro division will allow us to be able to bump riders upward allowing for more competitive classes. Again we are constantly talking about improvements and we have a few changes coming for the upcoming season in the upper divisions. Hope this helps.

Hi Michael,

I have a question about Veterans division. It seems that it is for age 40+ riders, but it also seems to only allow novice tricks. If that is the case, what is the difference between Mens novice and Veterans besides age? I am over 40, but last year I was not allowed to ride in Veterans due to more advanced tricks. It seems like an older novice division. If you meet the age criteria, then you shouldn't be limited on the tricks.
Thanks for your comments.

Hey Jim,

As for the Veterans division, it is for the intermediate rider over the age of 40. The only difference from it versus masters is you cannot do any spins or inverts. All else applies. If they had you doing only novice tricks in that class please let me know what state you rode for, so we can get this corrected. Hope this helps.

Michael, I am kinda with Jim on the masters and veterans. We are both older but we are placed to ride against kids 1/2 our age. I think it should be if you want to ride masters or vets you can do any trick you want. Because once you get to nationals it would be cool seeing the older guys rip. It kinda gives the kids hope. Like look at
that 40 year old throwing Railys and Scarcrows.

If you look at the Worlds and Nationals WWA has the Vets and Masters are pulling scarecrow mobes.

Michael, Just because an individual is over the age of 30 or 40, is there anything that says he/she MUST ride in masters or veterans division. Arn't those divisions set up for the older individuals that want to play the game, but do not necessarily have the ability to throw a raily or scarecrow. At 62, it takes me a long time to recover when I screw up.

Jim and Squid, at my age, you guys are the kids

Gary
you are right in regards to riders not having to compete in a veterans class if they dont want to. Riders that are older than 30 or 40 may opt to higher classes that fit them better. I am 38 years old and ride in advance class. Not saying I do very well in it, but I do ride in that class. I will say it gets a ton of respect when someone is older and rides against people 1/2 their age. In 2002 I watched I believe a 46 year old win the advanced class at USC and who can forget Delbert from Florida that was in his upper 40's that rode in Expert at USC. Squid I can say we are always looking at how we can better our program, so if down the rode there is need for a upper veterans class we can add it. Hope this helps

Michael,

Thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to seeing some changes. The spin variation that I had mentioned wasn't just for the advanced class but for all the classes, IMO.

Personally I rode in the expert class last year, and would still rather see someone do many different tricks than 3-4 variations of the same trick. I also think that it would be good to have some sort of compostion bonus if you change up your run a bit.
For example: tantrum, toeside 5, backroll, then a 3, bat wing as a first pass. Or this: 360, scarcrow, grabbed 360, batwing, then a off-axis 360. Which would you think is the better rider?
Just an idea.
Looking forward to the upcoming season. Hoping to do well.

Just an interesting little bit of trivia for you. Marshall Harrington is the guy credited with first doing o/a spins (basically because he couldn't do them straight). In the comps in the mid 90's where you had to nominate your run, they would not give him credit for these tricks as a 360 as the judges were telling him that they were mobes, not spins. Since he nominated them as 360's, no points.

Brandon,

You make good points. I can tell you that if I have a rider that mixes his or her run. You can bet they will get higher style point values. I never gave much style points to people that do multiple variations off the same invert or the same spin. Some grabs on spins are more difficult than others, so considerations are given, but riders that do a back roll, roll to revert etc, usually will get downgraded in style. I can say that different people like to see different things, so that is why we put multiple judges in the boat for style. Take all the judges style points then average them together. We are making changes to the upper end style points to help enhance are point value sytem with more subjective style points. Hope this helps. Take care.

not to disrespect int or anyone affiliated with them, but the scoring system is exactly why i stopped doing int tourneys and judging them as well. there's really no credit given for style. the riders all look like robots doing the same tricks. int would much rather see someone huck 6-7 tricks vs. 5 tricks done big and with a lot of style.

Joe,

You make good points and I to hate to see riders hold back or hurry to get that last trick in before the run. I dont like riders getting beat, because someone got one more trick in. I can assure you we recognize these issues and are trying to find the best solution. I think with our change on style this year it will allow us more flexibility in the boat to offset these issues. Thanks for the input.

I have been involved in the INT for 6 years driving, judging & anything else to help out. Great venue for young riders honing their skills. I have also been sometimes critical of scoring in past posts. This is this first year that I can see changes coming. The biggest problem I see in scoring the upper division is the riders don't want to go for the harder tricks that maybe their only landing 50 to 70% of the time because if they fall their not going to place. I have seen this happen many times with riders that I have seen free ride and trying lots of bigger tricks then they put in their contest passes. What I would like to see in the outlaw & new pro division is something like this:
Those division are allowed 10 tricks, 5 per pass, what if you only scored 8 tricks total, that way a rider would be more willing to try that crow mobe or 720, knowing if he fell it would not take him/her out of the money. Just my thoughts.

Randy, thats a killer idea. I have always wished they would judge it more like skate comps and let the riders throw down 10 free style tricks. I can see this happing in the upper levels you pretty much know your self when someone has thrown down and beaten you. When your in that level.

Also like Joe said I would rather see a grabbed blind 180 than a hucked bs roll.

what's a bs roll?

you are so old-school squid!

H/S Back Roll - barrel type roll, heel side approach Advanced 1050

straight from the INT list youngen.

Oh us old schoolers do it 70 feet out with a smile on our face.

oh, i know what a hs backroll is, i just didn't know what a bs roll was.

Guys you make good points. This is info we like to have so we can adapt as our sport changes. Thanks for the input and Randy that is something we can look at. Take care.

I think there are a couple of ways that you can look at the scoring with INT. Some people say that they don't like the point system for tricks. But i see it is the only way of fairly judging kids across the board. By setting up rules that give point values you are making the comp objective and not subjective. This is something that is desperately needed if you want all riders, no matter where they are riding, to be judged on the same scale. We have all heard about kids at local comps getting railroaded when the guys who are friends of the judges place with sub par runs. I think that is why you see limited style points. Where one judge may give a certain amount of points for style, the other one may not. That really makes it unfair when you are competing for one of the top 15 spots in the pro division.

Some people complain that they see riders free ride and do really hard tricks and then mellow out in their contest run. Well i would counter that the INT makes you perfect and become consistent on the harder tricks so that you can put them in in your run. I obviously have Biasis. My younger brother is a very consistent rider, and the INT rewards consistency. I also preffered the 12 tricks in outlaw because i knew Kevin was one of the only kids skilled enough to get 12 tricks in. I personally believe that if your good eneough to be riding in the higher divisions than you should be good enough to get in a certain number of tricks. If you have to take 1/4 of the run to set up for one trick then you havent mastered it. I remember watching Mike Schweene at the Bell Aqua series back in the day. He transitioned from one trick to another so smoothly. As a result he got in more tricks and used more of the course. I will agree that some of the point values for tricks need to be adressed.
end of rant

(Message edited by ldr on March 27, 2006)

Matthew,
I agree with you about the subjective side of the scoring system. I also agree with you about trying to perfect your tricks for the run. However, lets some someone has a crow mobe and a tantrum to blind, or even a whirly, but only lands them 60% of the time. He then throws one of the tricks, and misses it. Now some other guy comes in and only has basic inverts and some spins. If he doesn't fall, he could win because he would have more points. But who is really a better rider?

The guy with the mobes would be sandbagging if he didn't ride in that class, and the other guy doesn't really have the skills to be in that class, but may be sandbagging in a lower class.

I like what Randy mentioned above. I think that might work well.

Brandon,
Good Point, I think the new Pro division will be better because the way i see it, your just trying to post the best score possible to get into the top 15. this should translate to guys really going for it to try to post a high score.

To adress the scenario you posted above.
Sometimes the better rider doesn't always win. Sometimes he falls. And sometimes a very sketchy rider pulls off the run of his life. In my experience the better rider on that day wins. Even if it is the kid who had the run of his life.

I think the problem is the point system because the risk vs. reward for throwing harder tricks just isn't there. If the reward for hitting a KGB or crow mobe was greater, you would see more people going for it.

You said it,"Risk vs. reward just isn't there." I agree 100%.

back in the old days there was a bonus trick award. If we made it all the way down we could throw a trick that was new or you were working on. I think if you landed it you got like 100 extra style points but if ya went down it didn't matter.

I like the way the points are at the INT. There is less to be pissed about at the end of the day. Its you land the trick you get the points easy as that. Now they don't do that in the wakeskates and at Nat there was some bad judgin. James Evans a sick Cen Cal skater went out and put together a nice run not his best but it was solid. He put down a shuvit, lip slide 270, lip slide 270 shuvit out, some wake to wake grabs, a frontside big spin, a 360 shuvit and a few other tricks. He got like 8th!!! He got beat out by guys that did not do 1 wake to wake jump, not 1 shuvit!!!! The where just doin surface spins!!! But the judges that know nothing about skatin score a surface 360 higher that a shuvit!! Now that same guy goes to the collegiate nats in FL, lays down almost the exact same run and gets 3rd!! Beat out some sick know skaters!!! Thats not right! and must be changed!!!! Sorry that just makes me mad!

I ride 75'-80' depending on the boat, some of the guys in my class ride @65. For me, it is difficult getting 12 tricks--especially big!

I like the idea of a bonus trick, or doing 10 tricks but only scoring 8.

Glad to see all the constructive discussion!!