blind 3?

so today i hit a switch 3 without passing the handle......is this a blind 3, wrapped 3, or?

it felt like a blind landing to me, but it was a frontside spin.

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Don't start this again, just call it a switch 3 dude.

.. it's a switch frontside 360. You don't have to indicate frontside, only backside.

i was referring to the landing, not passing the handle.....

thane, i just learned switch 3's passing the handle today was the first time i hit one landing wrapped or blind. Was just curious if it was called something different.

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btw let me clear something up, i dont call a backside 180 a blind 180, landing blind is landing blind......i know the dif.

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... you did a switch 3, landing wrapped.

so there is no such thing as a blind 3?

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a blind 3 is a backside 3. Blind=Backside

blind does not equal backside.

here we go again......

blind is a landing, backside is a direction of spin.

thane, dont read it and dont post on it then.

and paul, backside 3 is not even close to a blind landing.....think about it.

........ are you guys kidding me?!! I quit! WakeWorld is killing me!

paul, how can a backside 3 be considered blind?

you pass the handle and land facing the boat(not blind). what am i missing here? i see two people making comments on a post but not really saying much.

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you landed wrapped, thats quite a precarious position to land in, learn to grab through the whole spin, looks sick (I cant do it but seen it in vids)

thats why i tried it, id love to grap nose all the way through the spin. if anyone knows of a vid of this post it.

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i still think this trick is proof of landing blind with a frontside spin instead of a backside spin.

you can land blind with a frontside spin in my opinion... IMO toeside 3s, 7s 10s etc can be landed blind, blind and wrapped get blurred somewhat but if you landed a switch h/s 3, you landed wrapped facing the boat...not blind, in order to land blind I believe you've got to land wrapped facing away from the boat... but I can't land blind or wrapped, I prefer the handle pass in all situations... just remember blind and backside have nothing to do with eachother unless its a blind judge, blind pete, roll to blind, tantrum to blind...
Ive got a ? tho, you think the pros could do a hs7 revert to 5? kinda like the ts 3 late shifty...

oh and to answer your question about the vid... harf does a 3 like that in natural born thrillaz I believe and ruck does mute mobes where he lands wrapped and holds the grab forever it seems...

Yes revert 7's are done... Yes Ruck does switch mute mobes, lands wrapped, and holds the grab all the way threw the invert. And you guys are still wrong about doing a toeside frontside 3, landing wrapped, and call it blind! Blind is backside... and the ONLY way you can land blind is if there is a backside spin involved!



I really don't know why i'm bothering!

Paul.. RELAX...

Break a TS FS 3 into 2 tricks..

1. TS FS 180...
2. Once you have made that initial 180 - and are continuing your spin to finish the 3 - you are making the same rotation as if you were doing a SW HS BS 180. (which is a "blind" 180 if you land wrapped.)

So.. if you land wrapped, facing away from the boat, with the handle behind your back between you and the wake.. then YES.. you have landed BLIND.. because your looking away from the boat.. and at the shoreline behind you

and hey - don't attack me for this post.. I actually care very little about this issue, just felt it needed to be cleared up.

dude i only read half the post butr mike you did a switch 3. or basically a switch heelside frontside 3 landing wrapped. but man come on just cuz you land facing the boat on a blind 7, thats not blind. if you land a trick wrapped up that just means you couldnt pass the handle or wanted to throw your own style into it. if someone does a crowmobe without a handle pass i dont say to blind at the end but maybe yeah he loanded it wrapped.

landing wrapped is what it was then, it seemed like a blind landing because my head didnt make it all the way around and i did land looking backwards......

pretty sure stuff like this is just a grey area in the world of wakeboarding, sorry if i got anyone riled up.

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you're right about grey area mike. it's both the beauty and the frustration of being part of a nascent sport. we get to be part of the evolvement of the sport and discussions like these are part of the beauty for folks like myself - and part of the frustration for folks like thane.

as to your trick, i'd say definitely a switch 3 landed wrapped. looking back doesn't make a trick blind as that only involves your head. you can't land blind with your body facing the boat.

i agree with you, there are no blind spins. there are only backside spins. calling spins blind is an anachronism and probably also the result of inverts coming before spins.

ever wonder why there aren't any ts blind spins? i would suggest it's because by the time folks were doing them the designation of backside/frontside had taken hold.

and perhaps landing blind (wrapped), on a ts trick isn't really technically a legitmate term because you start the trick facing away from the boat. although i completely agree with joshua, perhaps we simply make a terminology distinction - you can only land 'wrapped' on ts spins, not blind.

of course, you still can't call it a wrapped three as that indicates starting wrapped...

another problem is that we don't know how to designate backside rotation inverts from frontside. a tantrum to revert and tantrum to blind end the same way, so blind is used to indicate the difference and designate inverts with bs rotation spins in them. solving this might go a long way to clearing up the confusion.

A tantrum to revert is a tantrum to fakie. A tantrum to blind is a tantrum with a backside 180 (most land wrapped). All of you that are using the term 'blind' hand in hand with landing wrapped are just wrong.

a tantrum to revert is a tantrum to revert. Like roll to revert.

Call it what you want, it means the same thing. But, this would be the only trick in our sport that uses the term "to fakie" that I know of. That seems silly.

To me, "Landing blind" or "To blind" can only mean finishing the trick with a hs bs 180 and NOT passing the handle.

You can handle pass a tantrum to blind (sean o'brien does it every time) and it looks better. Again if you insist that a tantrum to blind involves NOT passing the handle then your still stuck on Landing wrapped as meaning the same thing as Blind.

I agree, Paul. But I personally don't think it looks better, especially not if it's grabbed.

Well I really am stoked how Sean completes handle pass and rotation 100% in the air... Shows his mastery of the given trick. However, my favorite rider, Erik Ruck, does some really sick tricks landing wrapped that look really sweet. So I appreciate the fact that some people can execute a trick perfectly all while still airborn & then I appreciate the style that some riders have landing wrapped.

That being said... I am really pulling my hair out over this thread! And I can't seem to not open it over and over. It's like how more re-cock-ulous can this get?!!

P.S. I don't think Sean can NOT grap a trick... Well, maybe his Big Worms, lol.

haha

Yeah. I just purchased that new video from numbskull productions. Sean has a sick section. He seems to be the master of the Nuclear anything! I'm going to watch it again right now to see what you're talking about.

What other videos is Sean O'Brien in?

I see what you mean. He doesn't cut the grab short to make the handle pass. It does look good.

the first time i saw sean's handle-passed t2b i didn't even recognize it - wasn't sure if i'd not recognized a moby dick to rewind or what. it's definitely interesting because he takes what normally looks like a difficult trick (landing blind always looks impressive), and makes it look too easy!

jrod - what vid is that?

you make me laugh paul with how much this gets you. it's always funny how different perspectives can be. as a wakeboarder i have absolutely no allegiance or need for reverence for any other board sport, even tho i enjoy many of them. so it's interesting to hear how important it is to someone else.

Stack. It's called "Revolution." You can get it from this guy. ronm@pae-engineers.com

Good flick. Also has Gerry and Weinecker. A lot of guys I haven't heard of also. Great music if you like the underground rap/hip-hop thing.

I've seen a lot more from Sean that wasn't on the video. No KGB 5 for example. He probably could have had two sections.

...I've never seen Sean in any video other then ones hes shown me or from WakeWorld..... I get to see him do it all in person... by far more impressive that way.

I don't know why it bothers me.

it bothers me too! Paul... would you be content with having absolutely no blind landings in wakeboarding? This topic is done but the only reason I argued the fact of the toeside frontside 3 to blind was because of the fact that josh said, the second half of the rotation is the same exact thing is a switch hs bs 180, but honestly I don't care what people call it, if it looks cool I'm down. The last post bugged me about the backside vs blind spins and blind spins vs blind landings, we got that all cleared up, got this situation cleared up.
I guess the reason I'm so arguementive is I am at school and my season is over so I must wait patiently for downhill ski season, except I tore my MCL last year skiing so Im kinda worried...
Also I just wanted to say that Obrien's T2B early handle pass looks SICK, Ive never seen anyone do a T2B like that, totally unique and super tech

Hoochie to Blind: Hoochie glide with a backside 180 landing wrapped or passing the handle - Invented by Shaun Murray.

paul, rucks toe sevens landing wrapped are some of the most stylish •••••••• ever seen.

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Everyone is talkin about land wrapped and blind and sayin that Ruck is the best. Have you ever Rusty ride? he lands Blind and wrapped better than anyone!!!!! IMO the next best is Chris Dykmans!

..... now your trying to start another fight! Ruck has this one! Hahah.

RUSTY RUSTY RUSTY RUSTY RUSTY...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not startin a fight! Just tellin the truth!!!!

I 2nd that Paul. Not only does Ruck absolutely kill with mad style, being a midwest native just makes him even better. Rusty who????????????

Rusty who????? Rusty who????? Dims fightin words!!! Ruck is sick and can throw down so of the hardest tricks there is, don't get me wrong. But when it comes to mad style, come on. When it comes to style Rusty is up there with the best of them!(Lyman, Harris, Schwenne, Greenwood) When I think of big tricks I think Pointless, When I think style there Is a lot of riders that come to mind before Ruck.

Not tryin to be a A$$&%^*, Just think there is a lot of sick riders out there, that don't get the love they should cuz they are not in the right crew!

(completely playing the game in a good mood)

RUCK RUCK RUCK RUCK!!! Rusty is the man throwing out huge tricks (indy glides off the double up) and HUGE glides Lyman style.. and hes a BIG man making it more impressive! BUT, there is nothing more stylish then a Ruck switch mute mobe grabbed ALL the way through the invert and landing wrapped without a stumble. Not to mention the those off-axis blind 5's and 7's. Someone once referred to Ruck as a sleeper on the 1080 contest.. I have to say I kind of agree. Not many peole can do a 7 and make it look not hurried.. and then add in the backside and the off-axis. RUCK hands down!

.... if this debate is to continue lets put the style into a few categories sucks as;
-smooth,slow,easy looking
-powerful,hucked like (but in a goodway)
-Huge,smooth
-Huge,powerful
-straight up tech
-tesh & Huge

uh oh Paul said blind 5 and 7 just kidding!

I agree paul, switch mute mobe landing wrapped is one of the coolest tricks Ive seen hands down, big and stylish, havent seen rusty ride much

... watch Rusty in Butter Effect, if you don't like Rusty you'll still love the video!

Settle down bg I was just playin. I think Rusty has serious style and is a name we will see more in the coming years and the fact th s*** he throws at 200+lbs makes him very impressive. That being said when I watch Ruck ride it is similiar to O'Brien in a previous thread. Evrything is big yet so smooth like it is effortless. So no Disrespect to Rusty but Ruck's got my vote.

Rucks Mute mobe is sick!! But Rusty also does a mute mobe grabbed all the way through!!! Ruck was first i will give him that. Ruck is a sick, one of the guys I ride with hella like Ruck. I just don't like him as much. To me he just looks slopy sometimes. Rusty is smooth and powerful! He is on the way up with 4 pro wins this year. Maybe Next year tour champ???

Duane-Rusty kills it on Butter Effect!! Its a sick video!

I know Adam I am just playin too. Its all in fun.

Yeah it is....WW rules. And to be honest I was glad to see Rusty hit the podium this year. His tats rule too. I am also just a little bias because Ruck came from Twin Lakes Wi about 20 minutes north of where I am at. I guess I have to check out Butter Effect huh?????

.. the only fault I can give Ruck is he missed a double up in Invisible Cinema. But everyones gotta miss it once in awhile.

Ya, Then come and talk to me about whos the man! I thinks its one of the best videos that come out in a long time.

P.S., Seeing how I have calmed down about the whole blind landing crap.. To start another fight.. Lyman takes it in Butter Effect. Anyone want to to say his style wasn't the best?! His late grabbed KGB was the ••••••••••••••• mention goes to the ole 7's Greenwood was doing!

Ya and I almost gave you that one to! He kills it in Invisible Cinema. Not like Lyman, but still sick! But since you said that I not goin to give it to you. Point for me!

Lymans the man!!!!! Greenwood's melon 7!!!!!! I don't even know what to say!!!!

look what i started here.....

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Since there is no definitive source on correct wakeboard terminology the term "blind" is ambiguous. Some people use it to denote direction of spin (turning blind--away from the boat). Others use it to define a landing (whether or not you are facing the boat or are landing wrapped).

If you want to be specific about calling your trick we could all use known terms. Heelside backside 360. Tantrum to backside 180. Backside 180 landing wrapped etc.

But I think we all understand that if someone said I did a blind 3 they mean a backside 3. A tantrum to blind is a tantrum with a backside 180 whether or not they passed in the air. I'm not going to say what is right, just what is used.

Oh boy and Paul was in a good mood.

argh, here we go.......

i stand corrected i guess on my sw 3 being blind (even though those on the boat concur that i landed both wrapped and blind to the boat) BUT

a backside 3 is a backside 3, not a blind 3.

On a frontside 360 you also turn blind to the boat during your rotation as with any spin, even if the blind portion of your spin is not as long as a backside spin.

Ive said it before and I will say it again, to me backside is a direction of spin and blind is a term referring to landing. The best example of this is once again, the difference between a backside 180 and a blind 180.

Who knows, maybe we should just call it a backside 180 to blind.

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mike, how can you land a frontside 3 (whether it's switch or not is irrelevant), and land "blind" to the boat??

If anyone posting here owns the "Book" please refer to the DVD I am still on Builing A Foundation. I know most are past it but Kyle goes through all this terminology. Frontside/backside is decribing a rotation. Blind is a landing. Break it down further. What is a backside boardslide. In the DVD you practice surface backside 180 w/out handle pass to prepare for "blind" landings. Again landing back to the boat. So according to the Book on a 3 anything you would be landing wrapped not blind. And yes Mike according to my only teaching tool if you do not pass the handle it is a backside 180 to blind. Am I off base.

deep breaths... DEEP BREATHS!

For the boardslides and lipslides, anything on a slider..... Backside and Frontside refers 100% to what side of your body (front or back) the slider is on when you hit it! Lipslide refers to the back foot coming up and over the slider where as Boardslide refers to the front foot coming up and over the slider.

The above is not debateable!!!! Although a little more precise on terms I figure no one will argue this one! .. and some will find it intresting.

Yeah they go through surface boardslides and lipslides in the"Book". that is what I meant by breaking it down. 100% non debatable. Whether you are facing a slider or boat it is all the same.

A general Defintion to hopefully put this to rest.

Blind: Landing blind is also like landing wrapped, where the rider does not pass the handle so they land with the handle behind their back with their back facing the boat. Referred to like a "Tantrum to Blind", or "Front Flip to Blind". Sometimes backside spins are mistakenly referred to as "blind" spins

adam, your definition of blind is exactly how i landed my sw frontside 3.

just to thow a little kink into the works. I refer to blind as a wraped TS landing.

if you think about it do a hs bs 180, no pass. you land on your toes facing away from the boat.

but, a ts bs 180, no pass, your going to land on your heals facing the boat. hardly blind, right? so its just wrapped?

take the 180 out.

mike, once again - how do you land a fs 3 w/o your body facing the boat??

dj - you can't land a trick blind if you land facing the boat. so yes, landing a ts bs 180 wrapped is landing wrapped, not blind.

or perhaps it's easier to say "facing the wake." either way - you can't land a fs 3 not facing the wake/boat. you land on your heelside edge.

regardless if you pass or land wrapped or if you're looking backwards or forwards, you're still on your hs edge and your body is NOT facing away from the wake/boat.

christopher:

what about a ts fs 3 without a pass? that would be landing looking away from the boat

.. thats just a 'TS FS 3 landing Wrapped'. No 'blind' term is used!

lol, so now welcome to the discussion dj - i take it you haven't read some of the previous posts?

there are two arguments against a ts fs 3 being a blind landing:

1) you essentially leave "blind" (facing away from the boat), so it's almost redundant to say - 'wrapped' would seem to be a more accurate term.

2) it's not a backside spin

however, as pointed out before, the 2nd half of a ts fs 3 is a sw bs 180, and a bs 180 landed wrapped would be considered a blind landing.

unfortunately, i don't think kyle addresses the ts issue. i'll have to check my copy of the book when i get home. i haven't yet perused the 'getting started' section that adam references.

Sorry guys... I am officially getting out of this debate!

hehe Hi! I've read em, just no definitions have satisfied me, excpet for the "arbitrary term added to some form of some tricks". (I could spin your head around about some of the stupid naming of fire spinning moves)

ok, I have been observing quietly long enough i Guess. I was driving the boat when mike did this and it was sick to see, it looked blind but I am not familiar with all the terminology of the tricks and such, so I kept my ignorant uninformed opinion out of the discussion. Here is a pic of mike landing a 180 blind, this is exactly how he looked when he landed the aforementioned and highly debated 360. It is what is, but what exactly that is doesnt appear to be very clear, or at least not clearly defined!

lol paul. i just emailed the coaches at the wakeboardcamp (authors of 'the book' instructional dvd), and asked them their opinion of 'blind' and how it might apply to a ts fs 3. perhaps we'll get an answer from the man himself (kyle)!

????

that wasn't a switch fs 3 then! mike's been calling the wrong trick this whole time! sheesh!

whoops! this whole time i've been assuming it was a switch fs HEELSIDE 3! doh! why didn't anyone correct me? lol.

see dj? this is exactly what you were talking about (albeit switch).

(Message edited by deepstructure on October 11, 2005)

chris, i did the sw frontside 3 and landed it exactly the same way but on the other side of the wake.

again, its evident the concensus is that i landed a sw 3 wrapped. (no handle pass). the grey to me is this....I was looking back and away from the boat when i landed. Landing wrapped I would have been looking straight at the boat on landing (coincenditally as i do when a do a backside 180). It felt like a blind landing to me because i was facing/looking away from the boat.....

I think I just need to go ride again and get some damn video. If the temperature gets over 60 in the next couple days in wisconsin im on it.

soory I didnt clarify that the landing was a mirror image of this...

chris, i guess your right when you describe it as "facing the wake" so it seems that is just landing wrapped on a frontside 3. For whatever reason landing I was looking backwards against the travel of the boat and this is what confused me, hence why I have asked.

actually i agree with you mike - my mistake was assuming this was a heelside fs 3. for a ts fs 3 landed wrapped, it's exactly the same as landing a switch hs bs 180 wrapped.

so if one is to blind then the other should be too - it's perfectly logical. i wouldn't call it a blind 3, as nothing is called "blind <insert>." that's how spins used to be called but apart from dinosaurs like paul, that terminology isn't used anymore.

however, i think you'd find most folks would refer to that trick as "a ts 3 landed wrapped", but to me you could just as accurately say "a ts 3 landed blind."

either way, congrats! landing ts 3s wrapped is harder - i haven't managed it yet. landing switch ts 3's is even more difficult. i've only done those one-wake so far. props!