Preliminary Trick List feedback please

As we wrapped up the NorCal INT League series it became apparent that our subjective methodology for scoring doesn't accomodate training new judges or provide for consistency between contests.

The AWSA is in the process of developing a trick list that can be used in contests. This presentation is just a partial list and isn't intended to be all inclusive, at this time, or a final product.

I would appreciate any input folks might have at this time. Are there any glaring omissions or are the point values whacked? In your opinion are we totally off base? Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Novice Tricks

Stand on board with handle 45
Ride with one hand on handle 45
Adjust board shorts 60
Drop handle and surf (3 seconds) 80
Wave to Judges 100
Bottom turn 200
Top Turn 250

Intermediate Tricks - no points while holding handle

Adjust board shorts 60
Drop handle and surf (3 seconds) 80
Wave to Judges 100
Crouch 150
Crouch and touch rear knee to board 200
Bottom turn 200
Top Turn 250
Lip Slide - board slides sideways on wake crest 350

Touch water in combination with any of the above - ADD 100
Grab board in combination with any of the above - ADD 150

i could be in the intermediate class hooray

I am interested to see how the advanced riders would be judged. Would you score a rider higher who lands a 3 but has weak off the lips and little style higher than someone continuously maximizes the wake with off the tops, tail slides, and a lot of style? I think that it would be interesting to compare the judging criteria for both surfing and skim boarding. With surfing, more emphasis is placed on style and turns in the critical section and less is placed on 360's, chop hops, and shuv-its. In my opinion, it would be easier to have a scoring system of 1-10, where each level of score has a certain expectation and level of riding. With five judges, the high and low scores may be thrown out and the three intermediate ones could be averaged and used for comparison. One way down the course could be considered the 1st wave with a score of 1-10 and the way back could be the 2nd wave with a score of 1-10. This way, judges may have a feel for what level a rider is and not have to flip through pages of notes to remember how many points a particular move should be worth.

Jessica, thanks for your input. For those of you not familiar with Ms. Oswald, she was the winner of the Women's Open at the World Wakesurfing Championships in '04.

I hear your concern with the 1-10 scoring and in the last NorCal INT League contest that is what we used - in fact we just "borrowed" the score sheets from the folks at Centurion.

This causes us a few problems when we started thinking about taking wakesurfing to a national level. The first is consitency between locations. So, let's assume that a surface 3 is pretty routine here in California, so a Judge sees that and thinks - ok nice, but...6 other folks land one. In the subject 1-10 scoring, maybe that rider gets a 7. NOW, let's jet to Minnesota and perhaps only ONE rider can land a surface three. If our California rider shows up and does three different TYPES of threes, maybe the judges who have NEVER seen that before award the rider a 10. SAME ride, same tricks but in CA it's a 7, in MN it's a 10. To advance the sport within the various sanctioning bodies we need a way to establish consistent scoring at each and every venue.

ALSO, you and I may understand what a Chop Hop is, but the likelihood that a judge in say...Oshkosh, Nebraska does is relatively slim. From a local organizers standpoint, finding qualified judges is HARD...but more importantly, as we look to the future. Sanctioning bodies are going ask for assurances in bringing this discipline to a national level. They will want fair and unbiased methods for judging that bring similarly qualified riders together.

My thought is if we develop a guide that can be used for training, that doesn't need to be carried on the boat - Judges have it PRIOR and become familar with it, then in the contest it's merely a matter of observing it.

The INT folks also have what is referred to as an Attack Sheet, where they basically ouline their run. So it might read:

1) Wake to Wake heelside Indy Grab
2) Ollie 180 in the flats
3) Switch heelside backside 360

Or whatever. I know it's a HUGE departure from the roots of surfing, but an attack sheet isn't impossible for riders. They have a consistent wave and there isn't any premature closeout.

I should have also clarified all of this by saying it's being designed for GRASS ROOTS contests only. The reality of grass roots contests at, this stage, is that VERY VERY few riders are above an intermediate level of skill. Only a handful of riders are boosting air or consistently throwing surface 3's.

Another part of this whole issue is that we don't give contestants a clear guidleline as to how they will be scored. In the subjective 1-10 system, it's basically just a relative comparison to whomever you're riding against that day. What this does is create "one trick ponies". To me, EVEN if your are the BEST at landing some particular trick, if you can only do that ONE trick you are substanially less proficient than a rider that can land 15 UNIQUE tricks.

To me, I think we do EVERYONE a favor if we also limit their SCORING to one instance of a particular trick per pass. That forces GOOD riders to develop themselves and it also brings together folks that are riding on a similar level.

I like your five judges concept...we would have a hard time actually getting that many at a small local contest, however. To me, I think you make the discipline more "inviting" for a local organizer if you can get by with only one judge. We take away all the guess work with a trick list and maybe an attack sheet and then all that judge has to do is look to see if the rider completed the trick.

You are right about the style component. We need to have some manner to reflect that, such that someone who floats a PERFECT surface three, maybe even a boned surface three gets scored higher than someone that sort of inadvertantly lands one

I don't really have a good answer to the surf vs skim at this point. In the smaller local contests it really isn't applicable. The majority of riders simply are NOT riding at that level. No one is consistently throwing a big spin on a Calibrated pintail. I would think that at a championship contest, perhaps at a statewide, regional or national level this separation might come into play...shoot, but then as I think about the consistency issue, we would need to provide the same divisions at a local contest too, wouldn't we? I guess that my instincts tell me that we only provide that separation at the advanced level.

Jessica, I really appreciate your input. Especially because you offer me input from a contestant's perspective.

I also want to wish you TONS of luck at the World's this year. I want to see you on the podium!

One judge? established point system? Any contest without at least 3 judges (5 judges does work a lot better so you can throw out the best and worst score) is asking for trouble.

I also strongly believe that an established point system is impossible to implement correctly and consistently. Your worried about one horse ponies but what about style less robots who sketch through a bag of tricks and looks like he/she is falling the whole time (this is me BTW).

IMO the system that's going to work is the one boardsport contests have been using for decades. a 1-10 system who several categories-difficulty of run, style, aggressiveness, overall fluidity, and execution (the ability to link a run together as opposed to doing a bunch of single tricks).

(Message edited by CAskimmer on August 13, 2006)

Isn't falling the whole time a TRICK?! I've been doing it wrong the whole time?!

Again, we are talking about places like Mankato, MN. Where Johnny - 8 years old and Suzy - 12 years old get the opportunity to compete.

Tell me why, Sean, why you feel it's impossible to implement a point system?

If I can borrow from waeboarding for a moment. If I am stylish as anything, say I can do this big HUGE double grab into the flats, but that is all. And the next competitor up can do, albiet barely, a tantrum, hoochie-glide, crow mobe, front roll and back roll. I personally believe the second rider is better. Doing the same trick over and over and over is more robotic, IMO, than the less proficient but diversified run.

Sean, thanks so much for your input. BTW, are you folks shipping the Walzer boards at this point?

That's why you need more then 1 judge. It's too subjective to one person's view.

In surfing, skimming, and snowboarding the person with a HUGE bag of tricks but can barely pull them gets eliminated every time. IMO(and the one generally accepted for board sports)-execution (the appearance of being in control) is the most important aspect of any given run.
BTW- a properly implemented point system helps eliminate both the problems we are worried about. the difficulty of run deals with the one trick pony and you can add a diversity category if you feel it's not enough. then on the other side of the spectrum you have the style and execution (which surfing places the most emphasis on) to keep the sketch artists in check.

Yes, Walzer is currently shipping out his "06" line although the 1" boards are still only available through custom orders. (I stepped back from my duties there to concentrate on Grabbag and my video)

I didn't realize you had stepped back from Walzer. I can imagine that the video is exceptionally consuming.

Sean, maybe it's TOO early for me, but you stated above:

"BTW- a properly implemented point system helps eliminate both the problems we are worried about."

Are you talking about what you suggest 1-10 or a trick list with point values assigned?

In particular, the INT League folks have a very well developed trick list with point assignments for each trick and for THEIR purposes, while structured, it works very well. I think for the most part, I'm not hearing a good reason NOT to do it, everything I hear is, for the most part, opinion.

I mean, I could understand if someone said - sheesh I wouldn't do it because you can't develop it or maintain it in an effective manner or a cost efficient manner. I'm just not getting that.

I do believe there needs to be some subjective component - as you and Jessica are saying the style aspect simply HAS to be included and has to come down to some subjective judgement.

But...what is the problem with saying a surface 360 is worth 1,500 points and a lipslide is worth 500 points (or whatever - just an example for illustration purposes). Intuitively judges are doing that anyway, why not codify it? It certainly takes all the snake oil and mystery out of it.

I think I made the INT League sound like the only sanction body that uses a trick list with points assigned, but USA Wakeboard does also:

http://usawaterski.org/pages/Grassroots/2005%20Tournament%20Kit/2005%20Scoring/Wakeboard/Wakeboard%20Trick%20List.pdf

I swear, I thought the WWA did also, but maybe I'm mistaken. Anyway, at least 2 of the 3 major sanctioning bodies do and the trick list that folks see on "howtowakesurf.com" was the initial creation by the now defunct World Wakesurfing Association and it is my understanding that they felt it best to codify a trick list for use in competitions.

IMO- Style is the most important aspect of ANY boardsport and appointing a set trick value goes against the very core of what makes action sports popular. Giving the individual an opportunity to display "their own personal style"

Ask any kid what they like about their favorite rider and 9 out of 10 times you'll get "their style"

I think we should be looking more at the way surfing organizes and judges their competitions then wakeboarding since the only thing the 2 have in common is that they both done behind a boat.

I approached the ISA about a year ago and they took the concept of the discipline into a board meeting, came back and told me - too dissimilar we are NOT interested in including wakesurfing under our umbrella "at this time" There is an issue here, when we talk about the future of the sport the ISA told me "FOAD" and the WWA, USA Wakeboard and INT League have included it. At least two of those folks have some implementation of a trick list with point system. When in Rome do as the Roman's don't you think?

Again...Sean, why not? Because kids like style?

I'm just not hearing you and I'd like to...I'm not getting any REAL sense for why this is a problem other than it's NOT the way it's ALWAYS been done before. I'm not busting on you, I'm really sorry if I come off that way, I just don't get a sense for WHY it shouldn't be done other than it's never been done like that in surfing.

As long as I build in a style component to the judging, it doesn't sound like you have a problem with the points system, you just want to make sure that if two riders do the same tricks and one is fluid and killer and the other is robotic that the style master walks away with the gold, right?

I think that can be acomplished relatively easily.

Actually some skimboarding contests do have a "loosely set" trick point value system but again it's only 1 criteria and counts for 20%-33% of total score.

I feel a system as such that takes in account all the different aspects of a run is the best solution.

I also feel this is especially important in wakesurfing where everybody isn't riding the same equipment. (I'm going out on on a limb but I would assume a points per trick only system would unfairly favor skimboard style riders.)

That surf vs skim is going to haunt me isn't it?

I think that you're right, some form of compromise is best, something where we have the style aspect makeup a goodly portion of the total score AND we also include some codification of tricks and a point system.

I have seen many "surf contests" and most of the points come from style, maneuver,(floater, lipper, roundhouse,etc...) and the length of the ride. They usually hold a seperate contest for aerial rides and guys that like to do all the tricks. How about two different classes. Surf contest for those who choose to ride a surf style board and can do tail slides, floaters, cutbacks etc... Then you could have a skim style contest for those who like to ride the skims and do all the shoveits, ollies, 360's, and airs. Two totally different styles IMO. One could be judged on surf style because we are wakesurfing and one could be judged on the ability to perform tricks.
Board More/Work Less!
J$

Hey John, thanks for the input. We've been to virtually every wakesurf contest in the USA and hosted four ourselves. For the most part, 99% of the riders are NOT doing tricks that one would associate with a skimboard. I know that folks are concerned about it, but the reality at a grass roots level is it just isn't a problem.

At our NorCal INT League series we started with a separate class for skim style and wound up not using it because we didn't have the riders to fill it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think at an advanced level it makes sense to separate the two into surfstyle and skimstyle at mini outlaw and novice levels, for example, there isn't any difference.

The length of ride is predetermined, for the most part. So we really come down to style and technical. Style is going to be subjective, no two ways around it, but the technical aspect doesn't need to be and I think shouldn't be.

Maybe the best way to handle this is to have two components. Style (which includes amplitude) and Technical. Technical is codified with point assessment and style is subjective with an equal point value. For example, lets assume you can throw five UNIQUE tricks in a run (and we only allow the first instance of a trick to be scored) and that there is some maximum potential value of 5,000 points. Then we add the STYLE points that can have a maximum 5,000 points for a total of 10,000 for that run.

In this way, the rider with the BEST STYLE and the MOST TRICKS wins. The person with the crappiest style but the biggest bag of tricks is on the same level with the person that has the BEST style but only one trick AND the person with the worst style and no tricks is at the bottom.

I don't think we need to train any judges on style, that's pretty much evident.

This works in both surf and skim and at all rider levels. If we separate surf and skim at the advanced level, I think we address everything.

Jeff,

FYI, INT wakeboarding is based on the point value system like you have stated, however, there are two style judges sometimes three in the boat as well. At the end of the run the style judges give their score and the recorder will average the style points of the judges and add them to the score. So you get points for the tricks and points for style (intensity, composition, & execution) as well.

Hey Chuck, thanks for the input. The "argument" that we have in this area really isn't so much about style, it's about change. There is an ongoing concern about mixing riding styles, but also about moving away from 100% subjective based scoring to a more structured methodolgy that allows migration of the sport to differing areas of the country.

In my mind, the style component is the easiest to address. I think that if we can create a system with enough flexibility to be adpoted by any of the major sanctioning bodies, we are best served.

Thank you again, for the clarification on how the INT League address scoring and specifically the style component.