The pefect Powerplant

Look here,the new V8 VW Dieselengine
http://www.vw-m.de/index.php?id=53&L=1&tx_prisnews_pi1[action]=detail&tx_prisnews_pi1[uid]=27

It's in some Mastercrafts already. I've been thinking they should do this for years - or how about a diesel hybrid?

The startup/stop/startup/stop these boats endure would be a perfect scenario for a hybrid.

Also - you could idle back to your down rider with a completely silent boat, since you would be under electric power then. Communication would be much easier.

Also - those batteries would be perfect ballast Build them into the hull for a super stout, heavy hulled Wake beast!

Santa, I would like to have a TDI 350-8 for Christmas please, Thank you.

350 hp and 516 foot pounds of torque! Sounds like the ultimate wakesurf boat engine.

Puts the current 8.1 ltr GM to shame.. also much better on fuel!

I would love to see it in a Mastercraft X-star but without the extra $20k price tag!

Looks nice, the new diesels from VW are very fuel efficient too!

Hybrid would be just okay. The benefits for a boat would not be that great. A boat takes a ton of power because the friction is much higher to push a boat through water than to roll a car against hard pavement.

Batteries for ballast, not a bad idea, but not better than water ballast which provides several benefits. Like the fact that you can empty the weight in a water system so you don't have to tow a boat with 1200lbs extra. You would have to of course becareful building the batteries into the hull, they will need to be replaced in 5-10 years.

The idea of a hybrid is intriguing. It would be cool if each time you came off plane the engine would shut off and the electric took over while at idle speeds. Then the engine kicks back in as you move above idle speeds. It would so quiet and doesn't GM have this technology already?

are vw's quality these days? every experiannce i have had has been below par. and i dont give second chances. so i would pass.

The idea of a hybrid boat is silly - nonsense.

The only hybrid configuration that might make sense would be an IC engine driving an electric propulsion system with no direct IC engine to propeller connection. A smart system would only turn on an IC engine when there’s throttle demand. You might save one or two percent of your fuel by shutting the engine down when you’re not thinking about it. So if the IC engine shuts off while you’re slowly trolling around a downed skier or docking you might save one to two percent off of your daily fuel bill.

The cost of the system, over and above the cost of the base boat, would be more than most of us make in a year. All that for saving $100 to $300 in fuel each year, that’s not a good trade.

No practical recovery of “braking” energy could be expected from your boat.

I don't think a boat full of batteries is the way to do this. So much power being spent short amount of time, with no way to recover for the next draw.... IDK.

Anyone know what the torque/hp curve looks like on a diesel? Those sound like peak numbers...

The issue with diesels: there is no way to advance the ignition at higher rpms. So, you have AWESOME torque at the low end that drops off significantly at higher rpms because the engine can't efficiently burn fuel at those speeds. I know I hit about 4000 rpms coming out of the hole. If anyone's knows of a curve chart, post it up, curious where the torque plateaus.

Couple things would help, namely multi-speed trannies, but we all know how successful that was...

Are you guys serious? Most cruise ships are hybrids.

Most trains are hybrids.

They are starting to put them in "big rigs" also.

TJ - An electric motor has 100 percent power at 0 rpm on up, so the power would put whatever motor you are running to shame (or my motor for that matter). Of course the "gas" savings over the initial cost is probably something we could debate, but how many guys do you know bought a diesel because of the towing mileage, not realizing it would take like 100,000 miles or more to recoup the cost difference of the motor alone.

BUT... the cost has come down radically on hybrid technology. I've even seen some cars that are pretty affordable and are hybrid power

I don't think the cost of the system would be more than I make in a year, and believe me, I don't make all that much. The "braking" energy isn't needed, since you are running a small diesel motor to keep the batteries charged.

Also - They would be built into the hull in a modular fashion (obviously) since there would need to be replacement capibilities. As far as being able to empty the sacks for towing, again - good point, and that is a debatable one. I don't know how much extra weight a small diesel hybrid system weighs vs a 8.1 litre big block OR that VW v-8 diesel. Most of those are a good thousand pounds I thought, add a 50 gallon tank (vs probably 25 for a hybrid) and the weight may not be such a difference.

edited for nacho - 2 words on diesel rpm. Gear box (or is that one word??)

(Message edited by lifetimewarranty on December 24, 2008)

As far as vw goes the reliability in their diesel engines is second to none. I have a jetta tdi that religiously gets 46mpg+ with normal city hwy driving habits. If I could get one of these in a 230 I would be all over it, if it was a reasonably priced upgrade and diesel was available on our lake. I do know after doing some research that the engines are very expensive. My mom ruined the engine in her tdi Beetle in a crash and the car was totaled without even scratching the body. The engine replacement alone was over half the cars value at 9-12k for just the motor. I don't see anyone getting one of these in any wakeboat without the 20K upcharge. You would have to save a ton of fuel and keep the boat a very long time to offset it.

YJ, Boat motors run primarily as stationary engines so hybrids will not work in them. You don't seem to understand that every energy conversion comes with losses so running an engine to spin a generator to charge a battery to power an electric motor to turn the prop is far more wasteful than just directly coupling the engine to the prop. I'm kinda surprised no one has suggested dropping a 12V Cummins into a wake or surf boat. Proven reliability, fully developed, and tooling costs must be amortized by now. Kinda heavy but who cares in that application?

Nacho, there's a new diesel ignition technology that actually uses a spark plug. The technology allows diesel engines to run at higher rpms.

TJ, I did say that IC over electric, just like in modern rail road train engines would be possible. You’re kind of right by saying that you have maximum power at 0 rpms, really you have maximum torque. However, IMO I don’t think you’re going to save much energy with an IC over electric system for the reasons I stated above. Certainly you will not realize the efficiency improvements that you see in the automotive segment.

One way would be to chance from gas to diesel. However, making that change alone is going to give you a big improvement but at a fairly high price tag. Now add the research and development needed to add the electric drive train, provide safety, and test for the commercial market. That won’t be cheap. I don’t ever expect to see a hybrid sport boat.

TJ, how do you think an IC over electric system save fuel?

Note that Toyota still isn’t making a profit on hybrid cars, the costs have yet to come down.

Show, thats interesting. What are they used in?

TC, gearbox: wouldn't the torque be reduced by the gear ratio?

This is the engine required!

Audi R8 TDI

Drivetrain
Layout Mid-Engine, AWD
Transmission 5 Speed Manual

Engine
Torque 737.56 lb-ft. @ 1750 rpm
Horsepower 500 hp
Engine Type Twin Turbo TDI Diesel V12
Displacement 5934 cc
Compression Ratio 16.0:1
Boost Pressure 2.6 bar

Performance
0-100 km/h (0-62 mph) 4.2 sec.
Top Speed Well Over 300 km/h (186.41 mph)

Nacho - This is a bit out of my field. So, I'm not a lot of help here, the right term to research is "Spark-Assisted Diesel" You'll get a bunch of SAE papers. The papers aren't available for free, so that's as far as I go. Some of the Spark-Assisted Diesel papers are two cycle, hence higher rpm.

Maybe there are some SAE guys on the forum that can shed more light. I thought that some of the big German auto brands had something along these lines in the works but I did a quick search and didn’t find anything.

John - read my previous post. Boats are already using hybrids. Probably every cargo ship is a diesel electric boat. I don't know how you can say they won't work. They already are.

Granted, it is a much bigger scale, but to take it to a smaller scale, prius( I realize it's not a boat). I can't debate Show regarding toyota making money on their prius'. I don't know where he got the information that states they don't make money on these cars. I figured toyota corp was smart enough to make money on their products.

Show - I am simply stating it would be a sweet idea. If toyota can make a 20k car (that they don't make money on), why can't a 50 (or 90) thousand dollar boat have it. Think of all the times you turn the engine off and on because it is just spewing fumes and noise while you are talking to a guy in the water. Imagine the hybrid style that automatically shuts off. I just think it would be an awesome addition to these boats. Also - Would you have said a diesel powered ski boat is silly nonsense? It's simply an option.

For you to say it's silly and nonsense tells me you're not like any engineer that I know(and I know some of the best). All of the engineers that I know love it when people tell them that and then they prove them wrong.

I’d say that huge shipping vessel and modern diesel-over-electric trains are on the same scale. These systems are not on the same scale as sport boat. I think we agree on this.

My main point is this, most boaters think that automotive hybrid technology applies to boats – it doesn’t. Most believe that when automotive hybrid technology is applied to boating that similar savings could be realized. Other than idle mode, no one has suggested where those savings will come from.

I don’t recall where I heard the Toyota quote, but it was on the recent news and relating to the troubled automotive market. OK, so the Prius starts at $22k, likely more OTD. Toyota is “buying-in” to the hybrid market. They are laying the ground work for the next generation of automobile – fuel cell hybrid vehicles. This year a few folk will be able to lease a Honda fuel cell car. The fuel cells for those cars are at least $100k each. Honda is not making money on these cars either; they too are buying-in.

I’d love to work on a hybrid boat project. A good engineer won’t let you spend money on a lost cause. Don’t let me stop anyone else from taking on the task, maybe Chris, of Epic Boats, has already solved the problem.

TC, Maybe you should spend a little time doing some research before you call diesel electric boats or trains "hybrids". They are not. They use diesel electric power plants because the sort of drivetrains that would be needed to power train wheels or to get ships moving and stopped simply don't exist. Diesel electric power plants allow you to transmit power without shafts or gears which is handy when powering extremely heavy objects like a train where they would likely break. On trains the motive power is also used as a brake so they save themselves the trouble of having to make one. Trains are NOT hybrids so quit saying they are as it make you look ill informed.

John, I’m not sure I'd go that hard on TC. What does hybrid mean anyway? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid
"A hybrid is the combination of two or more different things, aimed at achieving a particular objective or goal."

An IC (gas or diesel) over electric system consisting of a motor, a generator, maybe a battery system, and an electric motor serves the purpose of providing traction for a train or propulsion for a ship. Seems hybrid-enough to me.

In current automotive context hybrid means and IC engine, three-way transition, batteries, inverter, and electric motors.

Am I wrong here?

What would the cost advantages be to owning a boat with a diesel? I don't think there are many people that keep their boats long enough to make it worth the added cost.

I'm with Chad on this one.

Here are some classy electric boats, see:
http://www.boesch-boats.ch/boats/series-620/620-acapulco-de-luxe-electric-power

Another:

(Message edited by coldlake on December 27, 2008)

"Am I wrong here?"

Kind of because until Wikipedia no one would have called a diesel electric train a 'hybrid'. In this thread the poster suggested that a hybrid would be more efficient and then said "see trains do it". I'm paraphrasing of course but I found it funny because trains don't do it because they are any more efficient. It's the only way to 'gear down' a diesel enough to get something as heavy as a train moving. This is unnecessary in a wake boat. I'm sure we could see pretty good gains in fuel economy if we relaxed our need for top speed and instead built boats that were optimized for wake boarding speeds instead of being fixated on buzz words like hybrid.

I'm onboard with Diesel powerplants like the new marine one from VW that the original poster started this thread about. Very powerful, improved fuel efficiency, solid reliability (and a giant company like VW backing them to provide a network of important things like easy to comeby parts).

I'm not sure how many more times I could give my input on hybrid or electric or solar powered boats, it's got to be up to 7 or 8 different threads now, maybe it's new posters asking the same questions over again, maybe its the same that just don't get it. I'm going to post some stuff below and just link to this post in the future.

Hybrid is not a very good idea in wakeboats.

Why?
Lots of extra cost (likely in the neighborhood of $10,000 to $15,000intially then $5,000 or more in 6 years or so when you need new batteries), extra weight (in the neighborhood of 700-1000 extra lbs.), extra complexity (essentially twice the systems-one of which the electric system - neither you nor your dealer is familar with, very litte gains in terms of fuel economy or performance. Boats can't recapture the breaking energy, the extra weight added when towing a boat on a trailer would suck, you'd need a huge electric motor to power a boat because of the friction and force needed (try doing it with a Netgains Warp 9 or Advanced DC Series FB1-4001 the two most popular motors for hybrid vehicles and see what kind of results you get, I think you'll be highly disappointed.)


All Electric is not a very good idea in wakeboats.
Why?
First and foremost limited range. Without any means to recharge the batteries while in motion (no regenerative breaking like with other EVs) With the size motor that would be needed you'd be lucky to get 2 hours out of a charge at a time (more likely around 45min - 1hour). No one would settle for the limited range.
Performance - note that the boats above are lighter than our wakeboats have a more efficient hull, and still only provide a maximum top speed of around 20 or 21 mph. No one would settle for that limited performance.
Couple these issues with the need for new batteries after a while, heck just the performance and range issues kill this idea right off the bat.


Solar powered (all electric) is NOT an idea at all for wakeboats. People can't comprehend the amount of solar panels you'd need to reach planing speeds, it's just not even possible for a wakeboat. Solar is a very sexy concept but people that aren't experienced in engineering get a misconception about how much power they can provide. They provide very small amounts of power, are very expensive, complex, and it's silly to even think about it as an option for a wakeboat.

Anywho, I'm a wakeboat enthusiast just like you, I love boating and I love watersports, I love alternative energy which is an evolving technological option for cars, and homes but I also have a masters degree in engineering, and I can tell that it just doesn't make sense for wakeboats.

! done !

(Message edited by tj_in_kc on December 27, 2008)

Dang TJ, you've got way more energy than me. Good on you.

/Apparently KC has become the engineering/common sense capital of the world.

VW diesels "second to none". LOL. You got to be kidding. You're killing me over here.

the Mastercraft diesel option is $20,000. You couldn't save $20,000 in fuel in the life of the boat. Other than the cost, I agree diesels would be great. One way to look at the load on a boat would be to compare it to your truck pulling your boat at 60 mph. My armada gets 9 mpg pulling the boat, or 6.6 gallons per hour. My boat burns about the same gallons per hour so the motors are doing similar work. (Most) everyone will agree that diesels become more efficient (and more rugged) while towing than gas engines. For this reason, I think diesels are a better fit for boats, but they gotta do something with the $20,000 cost.

Diesel is to much of a PITA and how many people truly need to ride around with 4-5K worth of ballast.

If memory serves me right Moye and Malinoski don't even get their xstars with the big block option and those guys are supposed to be legit.

Diesel's are a great idea. Plenty of torque for the weight and a good amount of HP for those who like to go fast. I see a couple of issues with any diesel in a wake boat. The first is the amount of exhaust gas that would cake all over your swim platform and hull. Second, the exhaust gas/smell. Third, I have always said with turbo and supercharged engines (I have had both), the more parts are on a motor the more parts there are to potentially break. Think of how simple the chevy small/big blocks are in our wake boat and how many of them have lots of problems. I am not saying these engines do not work and I am all for german engineering (every car I have owned has been german) but it seems the cost and maintenance of a diesel in a wake boat does not justify having one. Last time I checked diesel gas here was .70c more a gallon.

Modern diesels will not smell like what you’re used to. New combustion technology also reduces suit.

A diesel engine has fewer moving parts and they move more solely, hence a diesel will always be more reliable and last longer. Not sure about a turbo though.

Getting diesel fuel at a marina might be a PITA.

Cost is the issue. Bring the cost to within $1,000 of a 5.7 and then it's worth considering.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/17/BA0F10NVBQ.DTL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN2lxoML7Nc

"The hybrid boat shown off Friday has a price tag of $185,000"

A little pricey don't you think?

You're comparing the price of a luxury mahogany style boat to a wakeboat - I just posted that as an example of a similar size boat that is also a fixed prop style.

KC engineers seemed to think it was impossible. LOL Engineering capital of the world!


Those mahogany boats are super pricey with a basic gas engine in them. Also, they are not mass produced, which normally cuts costs by tremendous amounts. Those boats are normally hand crafted to a level far beyond wakeboard boats.

Why would an engineer point out cost as a deterrent to advancing technology anyway? And I question that you would even do it seeing it was a luxury boat.

Think of all the technology that Mercedes' have. People with the money and desire purchase this technology at a price, then 10 years later it is in most other cars at a fraction of the cost. That is just how technology works. Of course it is pricey when it is first introduced.

Yes it is more complicated, yes it costs more, and yes this is the internet, so anyone can say they are an ENGINEER. (no offense if you really are ).

I think the price is and the Chris Craft brand are relevant. The print article declares that the boat is “super-fast, super-sleek…” and then describes the top speed with the diesel turned on at 20 to 30 knots. That’s just market hype. Pay more for less, sounds like a Volvo.

The horse power is what, 275, that should be more than enough? The torque from an electric motor should be even better than a diesel. So 20 to 30 knots should be enough for wakeboarding. So let’s say you can get a hybrid diesel of over electric for $5K more than a diesel alone or $10K more than a standard gas engine. You’re not going to notice $5K to $10K cost increase on a high dollar boat. If you have that kind of money to spend you might enjoy the novelty and the $5K to $10K maybe a small price but only if your wealthy. How about the average Joe, a wakeboarder. With these cost assumptions it would be pretty difficult to recover the cost increase. How many people are going to spring for reduced top end speed with no pay back?

I’m used to MEs, EEs, SE, CEs, SWEs, what’s a KC engineer?

As far as diesel hybrid, what about space? Where are you going to put a diesel engine, electric motor, gas tank, AND a large battery bank in a 24 foot inboard, let alone anything smaller than that?

I'm thinking that the future in wakeboarding is going to be straight diesel (as far as boats go.. Winching/Cable is going to be huge (relative to the size of the sport) in a few years). Has anyone ever looked up algae diesel? I believe that there is massive potential there.

Edited for clarity.

(Message edited by pwningjr on January 01, 2009)

there was a post on here with a link to a news release about a swiss company that was securing the pattent on a diesel ele hybrid in our range for cris craft. Was that here????????

Don't forget to maintain those hybrid batteries especially those of you up north with a short boating season and any boat that sits for weeks on a trailer.

With todays technology, I think the $$ per hour would be high in a hybrid. If you average 100 hours per year thats only 500 hours before replacing the battery bank.

Show - KC - Kansas City

Hey dan - I agree that the straight diesel may be what is most common in wakes future - keep in mind, though, that it still is a stinky thing to be behind even though they are getting much better. As far as space, I revert to the Honda Insight. That entire car would fit in the back half of my boat, so I am sure space wouldn't be to huge of an issue.

Colorado - look up the page a little ways - I posted the cris craft link up there.

Tim - The battery replacement is a big deal, but doesn't toyota warranty the prius batteries for 7 years? I would think they are giving themselves at least a little buffer with that number so, potentially 8,9,or even 10 years before replacement??? Just guessing. I read that the target hours of operation gets you to what 150,000 miles would be in a car, so that is pretty good, since the GM V-8's in every one of our boats is real similar in lifespan, depending on how well you take care of it.

Again, it was just an idea I had that turns out is already in motion. I won't be working out the details, I'll leave that to real engineers. Seems they have a pretty good handle on it already.

They have engineers in Kansas? Must be where Chris Craft is HQ’d?

Toyota has done an excellent job with charge management. I've read that they are getting well over projected battery life.

The power plant for an Insight won't provide the power needed for your boat. You need a diesel, a generator, battery system, inverter, control, and electric motor(s). They all need to be engineered for a marine environment. I don't think that will be a small lightweight system.

I guess next time I won't say "it won't work" and instead say "it's not economically feasible". Anything can to made to work, like going to the moon, but that doesn't mean it makes sense economically which hybrid boats do not. Did you hear anything in that video from CC that gave you the idea that that boat was any faster, pulled harder, or was more fuel efficient? No you didn't because it's not any of those things. So what if you can pull away from the dock silently? There's no market for that unless every marina requires it and they don't. Additionally, there is no regenerative charging on a boat that doesn't have a sail, where you might have excess power available, so there is no point in trying to store energy. Remember that to recharge your batteries after you've left the marina silently your engine has to dedicate at least some of it's power to doing that instead of pulling you and your ballast out of the hole. There is no free lunch so the fact that people are building them or patenting ideas doesn't mean that they make sense.

I guess I should add that if there really is a need for silent marina cruizing in the future the easiest way to do it would be to mount a big trolling motor under the swim platform. High enough so that it's out of the way when you're on plane but in the water at idle speeds. Tie it into the steering so that you can steer at slow speeds. There you go. The least expensive "hybrid" possibly and you can't patent it because this post will be around forever as prior art.

We all understand that you HATE the idea, John. Just because it doesn't make sense to YOU, doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. It's cool to have different views. I actually LOVE my 5.7 GM. It would take a lot for me to really want something different. So what, though. It doesn't mean there can't be something different, like diesel, or a 5.8(ford), or how about a HEMI!, or a couple of Harley v-twins (ok, that one is a little strange).

You seem to think that you have a monopoly on any ideas that are feasible. Did you invent everything?

Tell the "economically feasible" argument to all the companies putting hybrids in cars. I see hybrids every day, and they all cost more than comparable gas cars. Did you feel this way before they put them in cars also? (actually I did!) so I can understand your skepticism. Someone has to play devils advocate, so I appreciate all of your arguments.

We shouldn't disregard issues here on WW because we feel it isn't economically feasible. Let the companies that make the stuff deal with that. We here are the ones participating in the sport, so the more ideas out there, the better (IMHO).

Back to the VW diesel, though --- I CAN'T WAIT TO TEST DRIVE IT!!! Should be a sweet setup.

Anyone hear any other rumers of companies toying with the idea of putting it in their wake boats? With the economy the way it is, companies are probably scared right now, but I would have to go with Dan again and say that this will be very popular in our sport.

"Tell the "economically feasible" argument to all the companies putting hybrids in cars."

This is not an argument against my point because, in cars, the idea of a hybrid does work as cars have the opportunity for regenerative charging. There are problems of course because battery technology isn't where it needs to be but at least they kind of work around town. In a wake boat it CAN'T work because there isn't a way to recover energy so all you get is a gimmick. Gimmicks are fine if you want to pay for one but that doesn't mean the idea makes sense.

I don't hate any ideas BTW so please don't try to put words or thoughts into my head in a weak attempt to portray me as a Luddite. I just know it's not a good idea in wake boats because I think in a logical way. Maybe it's you who "loves" the idea so much you can't see how silly it really is in our application and get mad when it's pointed out to you.

My bad, John - I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I just love silly things, though. (like debating stuff on internet forums, LOL)

Now - BACK TO THAT VW DIESEL!!!

Lifetimewarranty, If you park your prius for six months at a time, like many boats, your not going to get that 7 year battery warranty.

I was looking through the "green issue" of a boating magazine which is orientated to larger boats. None of the hybrid system could power a boat much over a slow cruise speed 4-8 knots or for very long. I don't have the issue in front of me but it was very clear current automotive hybrid systems would not work in a ski boat. Not enough juice and limited recharge.

Tim, I figured it wouldn't be the same, but perhaps a similar system. The Chris Craft system is not the "ideal" system for our application, either.

Again, I really couldn't care less if they ever have them or not. I just figured a lot of us would appreciate the silent electric boat while retrieving riders, and idling around, and still being able to board behind it given they can get us the power we need.

My apologies to Thomas for destroying this thread.

OK - FORGET HYBRID(it's still too far out there for us here) - LET'S TALK DIESEL!!!

Or how about a Steam Engine in a wake boat?

use a paddle wheel of some sorts to charge batteries

Paddle wheels cause parasitic drag so they are of no use. Sorry.

A paddle wheel would work while anchored in a body of water with a good current other than that they are best used for grinding wheat.

Those are two thing we do all the time.

Yea parasitic drag is what I meant to say. Thanks John.

Wait guys, I've got to pull up to the shore to collect more drift wood for the burner

You guys crack me up

Gotta love this site!!!

BTW, did I mention I love the idea of diesel power. Powerful, efficient, does not explode and many will continue to run when your alternator fails. I can feel the soot on my smile just thinking about it.

Ohh maybe not. I forget about the other stuff, $100 dollar oil changes, messy fuel filters, added size and weight, more expensive fuel, cleaning soot from the transom, increased purchase price, smell, algae in the tanks, and the cost of good diesel mechanic when you cannot find that damn over-heating problem AHHHH.....

I'll take the supercharged, turbo version and a couple asprin please.

(Message edited by srock on January 02, 2009)

No one is gonna go nuclear?? Steam without the driftwood plus you get a big chunk of lead in your boat, just don't sink it...

I do like the diesel idea, since it is still cheaper than petrol here, although it seems that the prices are being brought into line now. Still for the price of anything else give me 2 big blocks and the trick transmission to make them work.

(Message edited by jtnz on January 05, 2009)

I will throw in a couple of cents. Electric seems a long way off in wake applications especially with the very limited energy you can recapture when decelerating. Mainstreaming diesels seems possible but with diesel running a buck more a gallon not an economical option at this point in time. I think other technologies might bring better gains like vector propulsion and continuous variable or automatic trannys. With the exception of MBs the only way you can change the gearing is by repropping. Not exactly 21st century thinking. Getting the energy more efficiently to the water will mean smaller power plants to shove the weight through the water.

Mr. Fusion to run the flux capacitor.

now this is a perfect, purty motor 377 scorpion