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Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       04-23-2019, 6:05 AM Reply   
Elizabeth Warren wants to cancel millions of dollars in school debt from current loan holders and then go completely free college. Have the families that have over $50million cover the costs.

How does that make any sense? What if you paid your way and paid your loan off like a responsible person? What about going into the military for schooling AND helping your country? What if my child does not want to go to college - do we get the $100K to invest in their life? What if they wanted to do a trade school instead? Or god forbid they go to junior college to save money and figure out what they really want to do? Is'nt part of raising a family including some form of education and trying to raise a responsible person of society? Then who covers the costs of professors and staff that make $500-1.5 million per year and at some point is that part of the problem?

Now if you want to talk about some version of free/discounted junior college/trade schools I am all ears. We have a massive trade/blue collar deficit in this country and all signs that its going to be a big long term problem. So instead of getting rid of auto/wood shop/metal working, etc in high school, lets figure out how to work with trade schools connected with high schools, to give kids a career that does have to include $100K and college.

This is not a political issue - this is an american issue. Quality of education in on the downslide, the cost is on the up, and we continue to pay our youth teachers below scale.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       04-23-2019, 7:12 AM Reply   
Teacher pay is ridiculous, I agree. And free college at the university level doesn't make sense (I am open to sensible proposals for community college/transfer track).

That being said, republican efforts to kill manageable student loans in favor of privatized sharks have destroyed what was once a viable system.

I went to one of the best schools in the world and got out with about $28k in debt - had no trouble paying it off because the system was set up to make it manageable to do so. Right towards the end it had already started and my loan got shifted to one of the for profit greedmongers so I paid it all off in a lump sum immediately before they could try and rape me the way they do kids nowadays.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       04-23-2019, 7:24 AM Reply   
One of the major problems I see with younger school funding is all the layers of administration. When I was in HS there was a principal and VP. The school population has not grown but now they have 5 VPs. Most of it is due to new policies.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-23-2019, 7:32 AM Reply   
Any market were money is injected by means not related to the consumers choice to buy with their own money will be inflated. So if the intention is to help the population by providing money, it's eventually going to backfire unless controls are part of the equation. That's a basic principal. When you make the decision to subvert the free market for the good of society, you are just stabbing your future self in the back if you ignore the principals of free market vs cost controls.
Old     (TomH)      Join Date: Jan 2014       04-23-2019, 9:44 AM Reply   
As someone who worked their butt off before and during college to graduate debt free, the proposal to forgive student loan debt pisses me off. If you want to offer a restructuring on the repayment/terms, fine, but flat out forgiveness is a pretty good slap in the face to those that buckled down and got it done. At the same token, our society needs to dump the notion of going to college just to go to college, since half these kids just graduate with nothing degrees in over-populated fields (or non-existent ones), and then wonder why they can't ever get out from underneath their pile of debt.

As buffalow said, a big focus needs to be put on considering trade school options. Less school cost, earlier to the work force, better pay in many circumstances, and a large pool of jobs out there waiting to be filled. I've actually given serious consideration as an engineer going back to trade school, as many days I'd prefer a much more hands-on job.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       04-23-2019, 9:47 AM Reply   
Tom, I don't disagree per se, and I'm not sure how old you are, but as I mentioned above the loan structures have significantly changed since I was in college 20 years ago.
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       04-24-2019, 7:14 AM Reply   
My college days are 30 years gone and have been running a business pretty much since then. I did not complete my mechanical engineering degree, but worked three jobs and paid for my schooling pretty much as I went. Most kids do not have the discipline to do that today and its so easy ot take what appears to be a hand out, that it is just easier. I do not know the solution, but it is one of the great problems of our country and its future.

TOM - Where do you live ? I'll put you to work brother? Wish more engineers actually used their hands and had to build what they draw as I think they would help the guys in the field a ton!
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       04-24-2019, 8:06 AM Reply   
This is a very interesting issue, and all of that student loan debt piled onto the millennial is going to have some really drastic / weird collateral consequences down the road. Starting out a career saddled with a mortgage means that accumulating wealth (and then being able to take entrepreneurial risks) takes a lot longer. We've completely gutted the private pension system, but those of us in late middle age who have saved their acorns have still been able to put some away for a reasonable retirement. But I didn't start out standing behind $150K+ in student debt either. 25 years from now when GenX is deep into retirement, there's going to be some huge resentment from this younger debt-saddled generation that can't save for their own retirement and need to fund a living-ever-longer generation of retirees. A friend of a friend's kid is going to Georgetown Law and will have $500K of debt between undergrad and law school by the time she graduates. Honestly I find that kind of stat to be completely unconscionable.

By the same token, the cost of attendance at public institutions has grown at the same rate as private schools. Is there really that much fat to cut?

Totally agree that we do a disservice to kids by making tech/trade schools seem like a "lesser than" option. The world needs chefs and carpenters and plumbers, and will for the foreseeable future. Not every kid is meant for a white collar career.

Debt forgiveness, to the extent it happens, would have to be tied to some strings to make it "fair." But in the end life is never fair and there will be winners and losers. We let people out of a crap ton of mortgages in the last decade too, and the sky didn't fall. Those people are back in the borrowing market. Yeah, so my tax dollars supported their bad choices, but it's probably better that than a great depression? Life ain't fair.
Old     (95sn)      Join Date: Sep 2005       04-24-2019, 9:54 AM Reply   
I dont think student loans should be paid off, I think there are other options to help.
If they stop giving student loans out and all the students were not "cashed up" do you think the price of education would drop? Schools have an almost unlimited market of paying students who borrow the $. Its ingrained, you need a college degree to get good work. High paid professors writing mandatory $325 text books. Seems like a rigged system.
I also graduated from one of our fine state institutions debt free. We had a running joke with a few of my friends who also worked their way thru school. When asked what frat we belonged to it was always Alpha-Beta-Vons because we worked at grocery stores.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-24-2019, 1:52 PM Reply   
Remove the concept of student loans being non bankrupt-able and you will prevent the basic problem from occurring in the first place. We have problem in this country of ensnaring the most vulnerable people into huge debt. I.E. naive young people with student loans and sick people who show up at the hospital. In neither case are the victims capable of entering into the debt with full knowledge of the consequences.

I also think Warren is going too far her proposal.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       04-24-2019, 2:46 PM Reply   
Jason is Woke!

Normally a very soft Conservative you Bitches woke the sleeping giant.


Jason : jump in the pool! The water is great!
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       04-25-2019, 3:12 AM Reply   
95sn - I agree the system is rigged - You sign a contract to get an education, you go to school and you have a bill due. No different than buying a car. The difference is that college education, should afford you a career and an opportunity to pay it back. "in the old days" when we signed on the dotted line, that was a responsibility that we accepted until the end, similar to marriage. With bankruptcies and divorce being at alarming rates, it's obvious that these generations only care about themselves. Instant gratification/internet/hand outs/free college is all a bunch of BS. Want America to be great again, demand more of your politicians, lend a helping hand to others, be neighborly, work hard to pay your debts, dont but **** or go to a college you can't afford, and mostly its ok to work with your hands for a living. Most of my installers make 6 figures with a huge benefit package and thats in the Central Valley. Its ok to sweat, get dirty, and have pride in your work.

Fly135 - Naive youngsters signing up for college without knowledge of consequences? Seriously? You sign a big ass contract - read the mofo. What about the parents getting them into college, be parents and educate your child on what they are singing up for and the repercussions. They want a new car at 20 years old, teach them about contracts, responsibility and what happens if things go sideways. Don't blame the kids - blame the parents! My daughter is going to college right now, I consider it MY responsibility to pay for her college as her parent and have saved her whole life to do so. That being said, I have a say on where she goes, classes she takes, and expectations like GPA that I require. We have always required our kids to maintain A's/B's in our household and are heavily involved in their education to ensure they have the support they need to be successful. For the good grades, they are afforded many luxuries that they would not have with lower grades to allow them to focus on their schooling. It was the way most of us grew up regardless of social status that our on this group. When my kids are ready to finance a car, house, or anything else, we will discuss the ramifications and the what if's. its my job as a parent to educate as best I can for as long as can. I agree that allowing school loans to be bankrupt and then making bankruptcy so easy, is part of the overall problem. How bout the days when going bankrupt was a bad thing, something that was the final resort and for 7-10 years really screwed you so it was serious business.

95Sn Summed it up nicely - In the "olden days" You worked and went to school and had a life. That was part of the deal because our parents couldn't AFFORD to pay for it and financial aid was not that easy to acquire. is that so wrong? Work for your education?

In the end, while we stand on opposite sides of the political isle on serval things, most of us want a better America. One that our kids are not saddled with debt, crime is down, we are proud of the American Flag, our military is strong and provides a great solution to education, and we are proud of what we have accomplished.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-25-2019, 4:09 AM Reply   
"You sign a big ass contract - read the mofo. What about the parents getting them into college, be parents and educate your child on what they are singing up for and the repercussions."

Yes, what about the parents? Children are now responsible for raising their parents to raise them properly? I too advised my kids against taking student loans. I also advised them to go to local state college and provided the financial support including a car to facilitate that with the restriction that they perform. My parents sent me to college and I had the mindset to do the same for my kids.

None of that diminishes the point that kids just getting out of high school, just like adults watching MSM can be led astray. I guess in your mind those kids have a cadre of lawyers and financial advisors who can advise them on just the opposite they learned in HS from teachers and counselors who are telling them the importance of an education without any skills to balance that with the risks and responsibilities of taking loans. My daughter was advised that some private college in Vermont was a perfect fit for her. I told that it was not a fit for her financially and that I don't do "co-sign".

And I believe that kids are more deserving of latitude when led astray by adults. The college loan industry, in it's current incarnation leads kids to believe that taking loans is a valid means of achieving higher education. When people mention Trump's companies going bankrupt, the response is often that he is smart taking advantage of legal means. Then out of the other side of their mouth comes the lecture on responsibility WRT kids taking out non bankrupt-able loans to provide an intelligent educated base for the future of the country.

The student loan industry is ill-conceived, but completely wiping out all loans is also not the best course of action.
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       04-26-2019, 5:19 AM Reply   
I enjoyed this article this morning on one of the baseball sites and thought I would share.

Twenty years ago, in Nashville, Tennessee, during the first week of January, 1996, more than 4,000 baseball coaches descended upon the Opryland Hotel for the 52nd annual ABCA's convention.
While I waited in line to register with the hotel staff, I heard other more veteran coaches rumbling about the lineup of speakers scheduled to present during the weekend. One name kept resurfacing, always with the same sentiment — “John Scolinos is here? Oh, man, worth every penny of my airfare.”
Who is John Scolinos, I wondered. No matter; I was just happy to be there.
In 1996, Coach Scolinos was 78 years old and five years retired from a college coaching career that began in 1948. He shuffled to the stage to an impressive standing ovation, wearing dark polyester pants, a light blue shirt, and a string around his neck from which home plate hung — a full-sized, stark-white home plate.
Seriously, I wondered, who is this guy?
After speaking for twenty-five minutes, not once mentioning the prop hanging around his neck, Coach Scolinos appeared to notice the snickering among some of the coaches. Even those who knew Coach Scolinos had to wonder exactly where he was going with this, or if he had simply forgotten about home plate since he’d gotten on stage. Then, finally …
“You’re probably all wondering why I’m wearing home plate around my neck,” he said, his voice growing irascible. I laughed along with the others, acknowledging the possibility. “I may be old, but I’m not crazy. The reason I stand before you today is to share with you baseball people what I’ve learned in my life, what I’ve learned about home plate in my 78 years.”
Several hands went up when Scolinos asked how many Little League coaches were in the room. “Do you know how wide home plate is in Little League?”
After a pause, someone offered, “Seventeen inches?”, more of a question than answer.
“That’s right,” he said. “How about in Babe Ruth’s day? Any Babe Ruth coaches in the house?” Another long pause.
“Seventeen inches?” a guess from another reluctant coach.
“That’s right,” said Scolinos. “Now, how many high school coaches do we have in the room?” Hundreds of hands shot up, as the pattern began to appear. “How wide is home plate in high school baseball?”
“Seventeen inches,” they said, sounding more confident.
“You’re right!” Scolinos barked. “And you college coaches, how wide is home plate in college?”
“Seventeen inches!” we said, in unison.
“Any Minor League coaches here? How wide is home plate in pro ball?”............“Seventeen inches!”
“RIGHT! And in the Major Leagues, how wide home plate is in the Major Leagues?
“Seventeen inches!”
“SEV-EN-TEEN INCHES!” he confirmed, his voice bellowing off the walls. “And what do they do with a Big League pitcher who can’t throw the ball over seventeen inches?” Pause. “They send him to Pocatello !” he hollered, drawing raucous laughter. “What they don’t do is this: they don’t say, ‘Ah, that’s okay, Jimmy. If you can’t hit a seventeen-inch target? We’ll make it eighteen inches or nineteen inches. We’ll make it twenty inches so you have a better chance of hitting it. If you can’t hit that, let us know so we can make it wider still, say twenty-five inches.'”
Pause. “Coaches… what do we do when your best player shows up late to practice? or when our team rules forbid facial hair and a guy shows up unshaven? What if he gets caught drinking? Do we hold him accountable? Or do we change the rules to fit him? Do we widen home plate? "
The chuckles gradually faded as four thousand coaches grew quiet, the fog lifting as the old coach’s message began to unfold. He turned the plate toward himself and, using a Sharpie, began to draw something. When he turned it toward the crowd, point up, a house was revealed, complete with a freshly drawn door and two windows. “This is the problem in our homes today. With our marriages, with the way we parent our kids. With our discipline.
We don’t teach accountability to our kids, and there is no consequence for failing to meet standards. We just widen the plate!”
Pause. Then, to the point at the top of the house he added a small American flag. “This is the problem in our schools today. The quality of our education is going downhill fast and teachers have been stripped of the tools they need to be successful, and to educate and discipline our young people. We are allowing others to widen home plate! Where is that getting us?”
Silence. He replaced the flag with a Cross. “And this is the problem in the Church, where powerful people in positions of authority have taken advantage of young children, only to have such an atrocity swept under the rug for years. Our church leaders are widening home plate for themselves! And we allow it.”
“And the same is true with our government. Our so-called representatives make rules for us that don’t apply to themselves. They take bribes from lobbyists and foreign countries. They no longer serve us. And we allow them to widen home plate! We see our country falling into a dark abyss while we just watch.”
I was amazed. At a baseball convention where I expected to learn something about curve balls and bunting and how to run better practices, I had learned something far more valuable.
From an old man with home plate strung around his neck, I had learned something about life, about myself, about my own weaknesses and about my responsibilities as a leader. I had to hold myself and others accountable to that which I knew to be right, lest our families, our faith, and our society continue down an undesirable path.
“If I am lucky,” Coach Scolinos concluded, “you will remember one thing from this old coach today. It is this: "If we fail to hold ourselves to a higher standard, a standard of what we know to be right; if we fail to hold our spouses and our children to the same standards, if we are unwilling or unable to provide a consequence when they do not meet the standard; and if our schools & churches & our government fail to hold themselves accountable to those they serve, there is but one thing to look forward to …”
With that, he held home plate in front of his chest, turned it around, and revealed its dark black backside, “…We have dark days ahead!.”
Note: Coach Scolinos died in 2009 at the age of 91, but not before touching the lives of hundreds of players and coaches, including mine. Meeting him at my first ABCA convention kept me returning year after year, looking for similar wisdom and inspiration from other coaches. He is the best clinic speaker the ABCA has ever known because he was so much more than a baseball coach. His message was clear: “Coaches, keep your players—no matter how good they are—your own children, your churches, your government, and most of all, keep yourself at seventeen inches."
And this my friends is what our country has become and what is wrong with it today, and now go out there and fix it!
"Don't widen the plate."
Old     (TomH)      Join Date: Jan 2014       04-26-2019, 6:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalow View Post
My college days are 30 years gone and have been running a business pretty much since then. I did not complete my mechanical engineering degree, but worked three jobs and paid for my schooling pretty much as I went. Most kids do not have the discipline to do that today and its so easy ot take what appears to be a hand out, that it is just easier. I do not know the solution, but it is one of the great problems of our country and its future.

TOM - Where do you live ? I'll put you to work brother? Wish more engineers actually used their hands and had to build what they draw as I think they would help the guys in the field a ton!
Sadly, too far away to take you up on that Jason (in Minnesota). I hear you on engineers needing to be involved in their build-outs. I have a large hand in several O&M contracts, and we end up operating much of what I design/install, so post-installation operability and access is always forefront when I design things.

I'm only 16ish years out of college, so the whole student loan business was well in swing when I went through, and many of my generation came out saddled with big loans. I'll give John some credit, that many of these kids were led astray, and we could certainly do a better job teaching financial responsibility in high school. That being said, I knew several kids that would take on huge student loans (rather than just enough to get them through) and then go piss away the money. At the end of the day though, they took a loan/signed a contract, and you have to deal with your responsibilities.

When I went into school, I knew I was going on an engineering track, with the possibility of going to medical school. While my parents could have comfortably paid for my education, they chose not to, believing that paying your own way breeds ownership of it. I'm also lucky that they drilled financial responsibility into us, and forced us to bank 2/3 of every paycheck from the time we started working. With that in mind, I looked at costs, and decided that an in-state school was the best financial decision, and I also made sure that I graduated in 4 years rather than tacking on an extra year like most in my major did. Between a half decent job and spending about an hour a week applying for various scholarships, it wasn't terribly difficult to roll debt-free.

But, in my mind, this still goes back to needing a flat-out cultural shift in the way we view higher education. Everyone doesn't need to go to college, and college needs to stop being the benchmark of what people consider an 'educated' person. I also think we need to pull degree requirements from job positions that don't truly need a degreed person. Four years of doling out money for a degree that doesn't apply to the position does not make them more qualified for it. Sure, they proved they can finish something, but frankly I can gauge that with lots of other metrics. I'd argue that if you can't look at your degree and point to potential career opportunities that you'd pursue with it, you're setting yourself up for failure (and I'd argue the degree probably shouldn't exist....).
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       04-26-2019, 6:42 AM Reply   
IF everyone has it, it is worth nothing
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-26-2019, 6:53 AM Reply   
"At the end of the day though, they took a loan/signed a contract, and you have to deal with your responsibilities. "

Let's make all loans non bankrupt-able. Then we can see how much better the adults do than the kids.

Quite frankly I sympathize with the lack of direction of young people because I credit my education and the money I make to the guidance and financial support of my parents when I was young. I see a parallel between the accusation of "liberal utopia", a phrase I'm sure you understand, with a "conservative utopia", where everyone is completely responsible and makes the right choices. The reality is that it's not rational to believe you are going to get close to either if you don't understand human behavior and statistics.

I know how much you guys hate Hillary, but the "it takes a village" is completely correct. I think most kids are lost once they exit the education system if they haven't recv'd some kind of certified skills that will move them directly into mentored positions. In my day a college degree (at least in tech/engr) meant a guaranteed job. I had three offers from a college job fair before I even graduated. Maybe you can do fine without a college degree. But it's probably not statistically as easy to do well. Even if you can list a litany of millionaires that didn't have a college degree, that still doesn't reveal anything about the statistical big picture.

If we want people to succeed and close the gap between a decent life and an impoverished one without college being the main solution, then I think the key is clearer paths to jobs where skills can be developed. Most people out of HS probably only know how to find service jobs labeled by many as intended for HS kids.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-26-2019, 6:55 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier View Post
IF everyone has it, it is worth nothing
Then you should hope everyone doesn't get the love and forgiveness of Jesus.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       04-26-2019, 7:32 AM Reply   
They need to start teaching life and finance classes in HS and make them mandatory.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       04-26-2019, 11:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
They need to start teaching life and finance classes in HS and make them mandatory.

Still begs the question why do we give the most dangerous kinds of loans (nondischargeable in BK) to those who’ve had the legal right to enter into contracts for the shortest time? Credit cards, car loans, med bills, mortgages... you can walk away from those “grown up” instruments in BK. Why are student loans treated like unpaid taxes?
Old     (95sn)      Join Date: Sep 2005       04-26-2019, 12:51 PM Reply   
So that institutions of higher learning can continue to jack up tuition, parking, textbooks and teacher pay with lengthy sabbaticals.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       04-26-2019, 4:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
They need to start teaching life and finance classes in HS and make them mandatory.
Agree 100%
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       04-30-2019, 9:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Then you should hope everyone doesn't get the love and forgiveness of Jesus.
Your soul is different than an economic principle. If everyone was an engineer, you would make pennies on the dollar. That was the whole argument post .com bust. They just outsourced many programming and even call center jobs to India.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-01-2019, 2:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Still begs the question why do we give the most dangerous kinds of loans (nondischargeable in BK) to those who’ve had the legal right to enter into contracts for the shortest time? Credit cards, car loans, med bills, mortgages... you can walk away from those “grown up” instruments in BK. Why are student loans treated like unpaid taxes?
because they are regulated and guaranteed by the us government.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-01-2019, 3:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
because they are regulated and guaranteed by the us government.
Because nobody is confident that the borrower can pay back the loan. It's as if the goal is indentured servitude.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-01-2019, 3:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier View Post
Your soul is different than an economic principle. If everyone was an engineer, you would make pennies on the dollar.
Not so sure about that. Didn't God create evil so there could be good?

And "everyone" can try to be an engineer, but natural aptitude will weed out the unworthy competition.
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       05-01-2019, 3:29 AM Reply   
How about something like making community college free or maybe deeply discounted? That would give everyone the chance to at least start in college, whether it be for a trade or 4 year. People don't need to take their gen ed classes at a 4 year institution, especially if they need to take out loans to do it. This all or nothing approach is just stupid. From the original post here, there are too many issues with simply forgiving student loans and making college free.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-01-2019, 4:09 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Because nobody is confident that the borrower can pay back the loan. It's as if the goal is indentured servitude.
They are packaged up and sold as securities. Nobody would buy them with a high risk of default, hence the gov backed guarantee.
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       05-01-2019, 4:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Not so sure about that. Didn't God create evil so there could be good?

And "everyone" can try to be an engineer, but natural aptitude will weed out the unworthy competition.
I really don't see how religion fits into any of this but that is your cross to bare.

I agree they can try and be an engineer, however most degrees offered are only a relative continuation of high school and have about as much impact to the work force. Liberal arts is a biggy that many kids like to take. Those types of classes and degrees are simply budget stuffers for the education system.
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       05-01-2019, 4:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettw View Post
How about something like making community college free or maybe deeply discounted? That would give everyone the chance to at least start in college, whether it be for a trade or 4 year. People don't need to take their gen ed classes at a 4 year institution, especially if they need to take out loans to do it. This all or nothing approach is just stupid. From the original post here, there are too many issues with simply forgiving student loans and making college free.
Actually there are many technical degrees around the country from those community colleges that you are wishing for. There is currently a lack of people in the photonics industry. We have to recruit people from all around the country to fill slots. Most employers in the tech manufacturing industries are in the same boat. You can get a pretty good career with a 2 year degree and becoming a technician. If you have the aptitude, you can become a Jr. Engineer as you work up through a company just from learning the business.
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       05-01-2019, 5:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Not so sure about that. Didn't God create evil so there could be good?

And "everyone" can try to be an engineer, but natural aptitude will weed out the unworthy competition.
Also, God did not create evil. He created Free Will.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-01-2019, 5:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
because they are regulated and guaranteed by the us government.
So are mortgages and SBA loans, but they are dischargeable.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-01-2019, 5:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
They are packaged up and sold as securities. Nobody would buy them with a high risk of default, hence the gov backed guarantee.
credit card receivables are securitized, as are car loans, without fed guaranty.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-01-2019, 5:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier View Post
Also, God did not create evil. He created Free Will.
God is both omniscient and the creator. If the creator creates you knowing in advance exactly how you will behave, then there cannot be free will. Free will is an illusion that is the consequence of our inability to comprehend the implications of omniscience.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-01-2019, 5:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Nobody would buy them with a high risk of default
Isn't that just sort of rewording what I said.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-01-2019, 8:11 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
So are mortgages and SBA loans, but they are dischargeable.
Mortgages are not government guaranteed(for the most part). SBA loans are just loans to businesses that the government guarantees a portion of. You can't just walk away from secured debt.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-01-2019, 8:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
You can't just walk away from secured debt.
The lender gets the asset, sure. But you can most definitely BK out of the deficiency. In some states the lender can't even pursue a mortgage deficiency.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-01-2019, 8:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Mortgages are not government guaranteed(for the most part).
But see Fannie/Freddie bailout. Government sponsored enterprises that are too big to fail and will be propped up if they threaten to fail.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-01-2019, 9:01 AM Reply   
Fan/Fred have always been considers quasi govern backed entities. It just took the bailout to confirm it.
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       05-01-2019, 9:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
God is both omniscient and the creator. If the creator creates you knowing in advance exactly how you will behave, then there cannot be free will. Free will is an illusion that is the consequence of our inability to comprehend the implications of omniscience.
Not true. That is a whole discussion on predestination. Not one for a loan thread.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-01-2019, 10:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Fan/Fred have always been considers quasi govern backed entities. It just took the bailout to confirm it.
So the loans aren't federally guaranteed, just the resulting pooled securities?

Again.... a lot of tax dollars went into propping fannie and freddie up.

But student loans must be nondischargeable. Again...why is this most dangerous of all financial instruments made available to the youngest borrowers who have the least negotiating power and the least experience?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-01-2019, 11:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaHoosier View Post
Not true. That is a whole discussion on predestination. Not one for a loan thread.
Of course it's not true. Debating magic and fictional characters is just a source of entertainment.
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       05-01-2019, 12:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Of course it's not true. Debating magic and fictional characters is just a source of entertainment.
for you until you insult the wrong version of someones magic and fiction and they blow up your town for it. Welcome to your democrat party who imports those types by the thousands.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-02-2019, 3:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
So the loans aren't federally guaranteed, just the resulting pooled securities?

Again.... a lot of tax dollars went into propping fannie and freddie up.

But student loans must be nondischargeable. Again...why is this most dangerous of all financial instruments made available to the youngest borrowers who have the least negotiating power and the least experience?
Neither for the most part. The entities are GSEs. That allowed them access to the fed window where they could borrow at lower rates than non GSEs. Their portfolio of MBS's, CMOs CDOs etc.. is what imploded on them and put them into conservator ship.

What "negotiating power" does anyone have for unsecured debt? How else are they supposed to borrow money? The guarantee on SL allows them to get lower rates and longer terms unlike a credit card but the government isn't going to take that risk if people can just BK out of it. I am not arguing there isn't a problem here. I am just explaining the how its done. Kids that go out and get a fine arts degree, rack up $60k in debt and wonder why they are in a hole need to be educated long before they get to that decision.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-02-2019, 4:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
What "negotiating power" does anyone have for unsecured debt? How else are they supposed to borrow money? The guarantee on SL allows them to get lower rates and longer terms unlike a credit card but the government isn't going to take that risk if people can just BK out of it. I am not arguing there isn't a problem here. I am just explaining the how its done. Kids that go out and get a fine arts degree, rack up $60k in debt and wonder why they are in a hole need to be educated long before they get to that decision.

Maybe we should consider NOT guaranteeing easy money subsidized loans? Then the flow of funds gets cut from higher ed and the schools that can do more with less (or which have big independent endowments) survive, and the marginal BS schools fold.

Take the fed guaranty $$$ and turn it to making already affordable community colleges even more affordable. Allow people to get their first two years on the super cheap or get two years of trade training super cheap.

We all know that racking up $100k in debt for a communications degree is very likely a losing proposition. Let’s take that option away. Or at least the option to do it with fed guaranteed borrowed funds.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-02-2019, 4:46 AM Reply   
Yeah. I don't know what the answer is exactly. Maybe make them interest free and make them a direct issue of the gov and remove the middlemen that reap the profits?
Old     (DeltaHoosier)      Join Date: Mar 2018       05-02-2019, 8:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Maybe we should consider NOT guaranteeing easy money subsidized loans? Then the flow of funds gets cut from higher ed and the schools that can do more with less (or which have big independent endowments) survive, and the marginal BS schools fold.

Take the fed guaranty $$$ and turn it to making already affordable community colleges even more affordable. Allow people to get their first two years on the super cheap or get two years of trade training super cheap.

We all know that racking up $100k in debt for a communications degree is very likely a losing proposition. Let’s take that option away. Or at least the option to do it with fed guaranteed borrowed funds.
Yep. I agree. This is another example of more money in the market inflating prices. Now you have online universities everywhere trying to scam a cut of the money.

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