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Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       05-08-2008, 1:41 PM Reply   
Out at the delta last Sunday these guys come down railroad the wrong way, no biggee, I do it during the weekdays. Their rider loses the handle on a trick then they throw a big power turn in front of me... As I go by I put up my arms like WTF??? I just chock it up to him being a typical delta wally. A few passes later his next rider starts throwing some big really clean inverts and raleys, almost points his boat at me and times his trick so he lands over near me then gives me a stare down. At this point I am sizing up my crew versus his crew as I am considering the dynamics of a physical altercation between his boat crew and me... After my blood slows a bit I decide to focus on riding and let it pass.

So my question is: Does being a good rider give you have a right to destroy the water in flat slough by powerturning?
Old     (kingskrew)      Join Date: May 2004       05-08-2008, 1:43 PM Reply   
No
Old     (mcwakerider)      Join Date: Dec 2006       05-08-2008, 1:45 PM Reply   
no not at all...

a good rider should know not to powerturn. Definaste toolbag.

i think the only time you should be allowed to powerturn is if the rider takes a nasty fall and you want to make sure they are ok. but the tracks are a pretty tight area to be during a power turn
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       05-08-2008, 1:45 PM Reply   
No! Good riders and boat drivers, hell the whole crew should know better that a powerturn is not the way of the water ways between riders. One of the last time out there was a Malibu Sunsetter doing powerturns to get their rider, later on the dock it was a local boat shop showing the new owner the ropes of the boat.
Old     (kslakebum)      Join Date: Jun 2006       05-08-2008, 1:47 PM Reply   
NO! Powerturns are done by people who do not know how to drive.
Old     (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-08-2008, 1:51 PM Reply   
We have a few of those on our lake. Only problem I have with them is their belief that it's ok to do double up after double up. They might as well be doing power turns, it screws the water up just as bad. Oh... and don't even get me started with the surfers rolling down the middle of the lake destroying both sides and when their rider goes down they need roll on the throttle and power turn back to the rider vs just letting off the gas.

Whew!

It's only May and my patience with sharing the lake with others is already spent.
Old     (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       05-08-2008, 1:51 PM Reply   
I yelled at a guy in a sweet ass Super Air last Friday. The lake was looking alright but each time this guy ripped a huge power turn it just threw rollers everywhere. I rode past him and told him to "ease up on the powerturns bro", he didn't like it but definitely stopped doing them. Until the next morning and the same dude was at it again. Snow camo Super Air at Naci, please for the love of God stop it!!
Old     (h20jnky)      Join Date: Mar 2003       05-08-2008, 1:54 PM Reply   
who powerturns a v-drive?
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       05-08-2008, 1:55 PM Reply   
i powerturned a v-drive today. it was fun.
Old     (h20diva)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-08-2008, 1:58 PM Reply   
I think everyone has powerturned in their time. It boils down to not knowing, more so than being an idiot. I wish when dealers sold these boats, they would give them a 10 tip list. Maybe someone on here should start one.... With that being said, it'd be appropriate to get along side the "tools" and say, "Hey, you screw the water up when you PT; you shouldn't do it."

Unless someone is in danger on the water, PT-ing is just frustrating is all. Although it does give us another reason to laugh at the inexperienced boaters.
Old     (skink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-08-2008, 2:21 PM Reply   
when my sister drives she is a power turning machine. unfortunately she refuses to take boat driving tips from her little bro. fortunately she only comes out with us a couple times a year.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       05-08-2008, 2:28 PM Reply   
Once in a while you gotta powerturn.... V-drives make it sooooo goooooooood too, where the water almost comes in...
after a good day of riding before we crank the boat up a good powerturn just caps of the day perfectly.

then again there is really 1 other boat on the lake that has wakeboarders, the rest are pontoons and warriors with I/o's... don't feel as guilty
Old     (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-08-2008, 2:29 PM Reply   
Powerturners are all D-bags anyway! Their mentality is "Lets waste more gas than you have to....just to get back to someone that is floating, and isn't going anywhere anyway."

My thought is that they all have small wee wee's and are too macho to want to do it the right way.

Snoogins!
Old     (otown_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2007       05-08-2008, 2:38 PM Reply   
I argue this same subject with my father in law every time we ride. He'll even demonstrate that the rollers dissipate & it's no bid deal. Sometime I wish that someone other than me would step up at the lake and say something..
Old     (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       05-08-2008, 2:39 PM Reply   
We take our customers out on the lake and let them know what not to do(POWER TURN)So you dont piss everyone on our lake off and f up the water.
Unless of course its an emergency, like you left the beer at the dock.
Old     (02ssv)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-08-2008, 2:46 PM Reply   
I had to tell my neighbor last night not to be that guy after I fall. I was polite and he was like oh I didn't know any better. Problem solved.
Old     (h20jnky)      Join Date: Mar 2003       05-08-2008, 2:53 PM Reply   
that is the problem.. half the time it isn't even the boat owner pulling these rookie type moves.. it is the poor shmo driving for him while he rides.. educate your drivers. good point CJ!
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-08-2008, 2:54 PM Reply   
Mike, to me that just signifies that the rider is either: a selfish SOB who is too lazy to inform the driver or he lives completely under a rock.

The general arms up "wtf" signal never really gets my blood boiling as it could mean a slew of different things like: "whats with cutting me off", "why the power turns", "do you seriously need to ride right next to us on this entire lake?", "back off you idiot fisherman" and a host of other things.

Looking back at the situation you could have putted up to them after the set and stated it as such "Dude, you guys rip, but whats with the power turns?". This strokes their obviously small ego (shown by the need to show off to your boat) still getting the point across. It reminds me of dealing with Cops, you gotta kiss a little butt to work things "your way". Now, if they appear to be "unreachable" you could cut your losses at that. If they seem receptive you could explain why powerturns are bad, etc.

I guess it depends on the situation. Imagine if EVERYONE in the know that rides the delta informed anyone they saw powerturning in the month of june. IF even 50%+ of the general boat population started not powerturning then you could get more aggressive with new people since the majority is not powerturning. Sort of like a "Sheeple" concept. If people kept getting a good old WTF with a finger solute they may get the idea. Sort of like surfing a locals spot, once your in the minority you are more receptive to changing your ways to please the majority for fear of confrontation/beat down.
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-08-2008, 3:02 PM Reply   
I only power turn in the begining of the season when the water up here is freezing cold and we are wearing drysuits. Your hands will go numb very quickly so I want to get back to the rider so they don't have to be in the water any longer then they need too. Besides there isn't a lot of people on the lake when we do this.

The rest of the season. Hell no to power turns.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-08-2008, 3:07 PM Reply   
I sat down a friend of mine a few weeks ago and drew a diagram to explain how he was making enemies, endangering his rider, and wasting gas. His eye lit up and he looked at me like I was a genius. Sometimes you just have to paint the picture.
Old    mendo247            05-08-2008, 3:11 PM Reply   
Definetly a great way to wreck a perfectly good session. Up in my neck of the woods you wouldnt get any riding in if you informed people of powerturing. Literally %90 of the boats i see do it. Its almost funny the way when we see someone not powerturning were all like "dude! did you see that, they didnt powerturn!". It really gets me fired up when im trying to keep the water nice for somone and they are just wrecking it. Instead of getting mad i usually just start powerturning along with them. Usually i can run them off! A loaded 215 can wreck a lake pretty quick if you know what your doing lol.
Old     (mcwakerider)      Join Date: Dec 2006       05-08-2008, 3:11 PM Reply   
i think that a lot of people are honestly clueless on the matter and they just need to be informed on how to drive. but the guys in this story do seem like doosh bags.

Who does a raley then stares you down?
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       05-08-2008, 3:16 PM Reply   
power turning is retarded

Its much better to slow, turn tight, and return in the line of the rider as a blocker to on-coming traffic without throwing you passengers around, kicking up a huge roller and wasting fuel.
Old     (deltaridah)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-08-2008, 3:31 PM Reply   
What kind of boat was it? What color? If a rider did that near my boat I may have hell I would of cut right at him in my boat.if he wanted to fight he wouldve got a taste of my stun gun!
Old     (bstroop)      Join Date: Apr 2005       05-08-2008, 3:46 PM Reply   
I do disagree with powerturning but it has always raised a question in my mind.

Is it O.K. for someone in an X-Star with an extra 2000lbs of ballast to sent huge swells across an entire lake as long as they're going straight?

Lateral or longitudinal........rollers are rollers on a lake. (River = different story.)

I guarantee that if I powerturned my old PS 205 without any ballast any roller off my boat would be dwarfed by 90% of your sacked out V drives driving normally.
Old     (wakebrdmom)      Join Date: Mar 2006       05-08-2008, 3:50 PM Reply   
Mike, it amazes me every day out on the delta to see people power turning. There are two boats always on railroad that power turn, one is a closed bow older boat (they go the wrong way too) and the other is an orange x-star. They obviously do not know that it takes longer to get to the rider and leaves them fully exposed to oncoming boats. We even have asked people to stop. I think people are just plain stupid and may not even know what a power turn is. Okay I feel better after my rant
Old     (deltaridah)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-08-2008, 3:56 PM Reply   
The problem is on the turn you use a lot of torque to make the turn which creates a differant kind of roller and in the opposite direction across someones line. On a lake your supposed to be riding all the same way so rollers go away from the boat behind u's line not into them. Just shows the prob with powerturning is the idiots that don't know the common courtsey rules of riding. Its bad enough when people go the wrong way down a 100 ft wide slough let alone pt ing. I honk the horn like crazy and always point the oppsote direction when people do it. Its funny most of them flip me off, then a min later turn around and go the right way cause they know their in the wrong
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-08-2008, 3:57 PM Reply   
going straight = your wakes are not messing up the line. They continue to move outward.

add a powerturn to the mix, and now you've sent rollers in the direction of your own line that you were traveling on. Also, as you come out of the powerturn, you're now hitting your own wake similar to a double up which creates a bigger mess.

You're just sending rollers mroe more directions.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-08-2008, 3:58 PM Reply   
what soli said too.
Old     (brhanley)      Join Date: Jun 2001       05-08-2008, 3:59 PM Reply   
The answer to your question, Brian, is "yes" it is absolutely, 100% okay for boats driving straight to send rollers. If everyone drove in straight lines and worked together, everyone (to a certain extent unless there's a lot of boats) could take turns, run the same line, and share the good water. 1 powerturner (or wakesurfer), even with a small wake, ruins it for everyone...except, I guess, ironically, that same wakesurfer or powerturner (who probably doesn't even know what he/she is missing as the water always happens to be choppy when they are out). The problem is we're preaching to the choir here...

And, in my experience, the quality of boat or level of rider (especially raley guy) is no gauge of driving/powerturning wisdom. I've seen plenty of good riders or nice boats that had no clue on how to drive. Plus, even if the good rider knows what's up, poor guy's stuck 85 feet from the steering wheel...
Old     (bstroop)      Join Date: Apr 2005       05-08-2008, 4:02 PM Reply   
J-Rod,
I totally understand the logic behind not powerturning so I don't do it. I'm just playing devils advocate asking why it's accepted that I'm 1/2 mile away (laterally) from a sacked out boat taking its rollers because they're traveling farther across the lake.

BCH,
I don't disagree with you about driving lines and sharing water. I ride some smaller lakes and rivers where it's a necessity. Let me re phrase. Why doesn't any one one care that while on a large lake (shasta) it's alright for a heavily weighed boat to send thier rollers out of thier area(laterally)into someone elses?

(Message edited by bstroop on May 08, 2008)
Old     (freshtracks)      Join Date: Feb 2006       05-08-2008, 5:14 PM Reply   
I was at Elsinore a few weeks ago and some kook in a 04-05 Malibu (VLX or LSV) with white and blue gel coat was power turning like crazy, killing some good water. We were riding near by and cruised over and gave him the scoop on power turning etiquette. He was like "ok , I got it". But right away, he is power turning picking up his riders. So about two hours later, we see him getting towed in by a SEA DOO!!! We laughed so damn hard!! Gotta love Karma!
Old     (ffmedic)      Join Date: Feb 2007       05-08-2008, 5:15 PM Reply   
kinda funny you mention this story...because.. i was out on my boat a few weeks ago on stockton side by garlic brothers..and there was this new X star with a guy throwing down some sick tricks and every time or i should say when he fell the driver powerturned to pick him up...i was thinking he should know better..but as i looked in the boat his second and third were fully dressed no swim trunks...even more weird...as i tried to figure this out my only conclusion was that they all probaly just got off work...the guy riding was a die hard and needed a second and third to ride...so he had one of these guys drive that didnt know what they were doing...and to top it off..after he was done riding..they started wakesurfing on the only stretch of good water there was...
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-08-2008, 5:22 PM Reply   
Often, it's hard to get close enough to the offending boat to have a meaningful conversation that they can hear.

Haven't done it yet but have been thinking about a one-page hand-out that I could keep copies of on the boat. Then, when I run into someone who is unaware, I can pull up and hand them a flier. Roddy Rod came up with something about a year ago that was close to what I was thinking about, except mine would be one page.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       05-08-2008, 5:35 PM Reply   
I have often wanted to put ONE-WAY -> and NO POWER TURN signs up in VIC.
Old     (h20jnky)      Join Date: Mar 2003       05-08-2008, 5:40 PM Reply   
doesn't matter where you are, there is always someone powerturnin'.. this pic is always fun to bring out whenever this topic comes up on WW.. meaning, many of you have seen it alot.


Upload
Old     (hawk7)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-08-2008, 5:40 PM Reply   
andy, you could tie it to a brick and throw it at them!

Brilliant!
Old     (zburns)      Join Date: Mar 2007       05-08-2008, 6:02 PM Reply   
Honestly Imo Coming from a former powerturner most of it is done with good intentions. Especially with new boat drivers, they're trying to get the rider out of the water as fast as possible so they dont get ran over by another boat. It nevers occurs to them that there is any other way to do it they probably have seen the rest of the boats on the lake doing it so thhey think its the right same to do. So next time you see a powerturner forgoe your anger and politly tell what to do it may get you alot further than yelling
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       05-08-2008, 6:32 PM Reply   
A friend of mine was driving my boat the other day and powerturning to pick me up. I didn't say anything but noticed my boat was "wetter" than usual. I do see others powerturning and just let it go. To get upset about powerturning doesn't do any good and it seems the people powerturning don't seem to realize it takes longer to get the rider up and riding in "decent" water again.
Old     (dizzyg)      Join Date: May 2005       05-09-2008, 11:19 AM Reply   
we usually roll up to them later and try to talk nice. That works 75% of the time, the other 25% either argue or seem to understand but then continue. Idiots either way.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       05-09-2008, 4:53 PM Reply   
Glad to see a nearly unilateral NO...

I was debating the roll up and chat option but the crew looked pretty tweaked out if you know what I mean. There were a couple decent girls in the boat and a bunch of young guys that seemed to be showing off. Better judgement told me that driving coaching would not have been well received.

On seperate occassion I have done the nice talk approach. I even taught somebody's kid to wakeboard one day so they would stop powerturning in my favorite riding spot. I watched the "hammer down" take-off about 3 times before I told them I would teach the kid to ski for "a beer". The kid got up on the second try, I taught two other kids in their boat too. All I asked in favor is that they not powerturn. Come to find out they were friends with my Mom's nextdoor neighbor. The interaction was positive all the way around.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-09-2008, 5:18 PM Reply   
Does anybody have a good photo of a power turning wake boat? I want to make up a poster
Old     (marvin)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-09-2008, 7:03 PM Reply   
kick his @$$ sea bass
Old     (mjfan23)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-09-2008, 7:08 PM Reply   
Who says you cant powerturn, his boat he can do what he wants...
Old     (marvin)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-09-2008, 7:21 PM Reply   
I'm with Eric let 'em power turn..... Let's us know who the idiots are
Old     (hawk7)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-09-2008, 9:38 PM Reply   
Darren Use the Tanker!

It seems as if you can't convince power-turners to not do power turns, my dad does them, my brother does them, and I don't, and whenever theyre in the water, and I'm driving they get mad at me for taking so long, but then Im in the water, get swamped by the rollers, get up and have to deal with the rollers going all the way down the river. I've tried explaining it, complaining about it, etc nothing seems to work.

(Message edited by hawk7 on May 09, 2008)
Old     (wakeslife)      Join Date: Jul 2005       05-09-2008, 10:22 PM Reply   
from my driving handbook
Upload
Old     (pete_moss)      Join Date: Sep 2007       05-10-2008, 1:50 PM Reply   
Chalk one up to not knowing. I had no idea this "power turning" even existed. It certainly makes sense. I always did it because it was fun and I clearly didn't ever think about the rollers coming across.

Never again though. I'm a new man.
Old     (gobigorgohome)      Join Date: Aug 2005       05-10-2008, 4:36 PM Reply   
On the basis that the driver didn't know what he was doing he probably though you were being aggressive towards him.

How about speaking to him instead of throwing up the wtf arms.
Old     (goride)      Join Date: Mar 2007       05-10-2008, 4:49 PM Reply   
i hate how ppl on the delta instead of asking what happened or assuming the person didnt know any better likes to throw the WTF arms up and talk smack so them and all their roided out friends can meet you at ski beach.

Were all humans and we all make stupid mistakes on and off the water. Focus on your own riding and having a good time not on beating someones ass on the delta so you can brag about it later while enjoying jager bombs and budlight and or coors light.

(Message edited by goride on May 10, 2008)
Old     (marvin)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-10-2008, 6:44 PM Reply   
Very good point goride....I really think some people do not even realize there is another way.


Someone talked about the safety of shutting down the boat to pick up a rider versus "power turn".... When you shut the boat down you stay in line with your rider (if meeting another boat or being followed). This will make other boats go wide of your rider because of your boat. When you power turn you are traveling wide of your rider and could cause another boat to turn into your rider. What do you all think??

We always say "IT'S A POWER TURN SUNDAY" in our best sports announcer voice when we see some one hammer down.
Old     (hawk7)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-10-2008, 11:01 PM Reply   
I just hate it when people in the wrong throw up WTF arms. I was on the Sacramento river at about noon on a wednesday, My brother is riding, I'm driving, and a person who is afraid of water [last minute third, gotta love em'] was spotting. I'm driving and I notice a boat with a third waiving the rider down flag frantically as if I were about to hit thier boat or run over thier rider, [I'm about 150 yards away at this point going 23 mph] its a fairly narrow river, about 60' wide and this boat is in the middle facing left not moving. I figure I should go in front of the bow because the rider is probobly off the transom 70 ft more or less back, I drive through the middle of the area between the bow of this boat and the river bank [known to be shallow and contain a lot of debris] as I drive by at riding speed I recieve the WTF arms from everyone on this boat. Did I do something wrong?

Edit: As I drove by I noticed thier rider was off the stern.

(Message edited by hawk7 on May 10, 2008)
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-11-2008, 12:05 PM Reply   
Nice Roddyrod! When your "book" came out, I printed a copy (with credits to the author) bound it and it sits in my boat today! Thanks.
Old     (richnnorcal)      Join Date: Mar 2008       05-11-2008, 5:15 PM Reply   
Trevor, i wouldn't have problem with that. the other boat should have been closer to one side of the river, don't idle in the middle for another boat will have to pass eventually, and what if they hit some debris, I would be not be happy if it was me...
Old     (hawk7)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-11-2008, 6:03 PM Reply   
Richie, my thoughts exactly, usually when people are have boat troubles they have thier engine compartment open, they did not.
Old     (wake_to_wake)      Join Date: May 2007       05-11-2008, 6:43 PM Reply   
when my rider is down i bring the throttle back to neutral and then bring it forward
Old     (nar722)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-12-2008, 1:29 PM Reply   
Trevor,
I have been in that situation both driving towards a stopped boat and driving towards a stopped boat. I usually put my hand up to signal them that I see a rider is down and before that, signal to my rider to stay behind the boat
Old     (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-12-2008, 2:33 PM Reply   
you would think ppl would get the picture when they see other boats NOT powerturning. or maybe they just dont give a chit. either way if you put in at rivers end read the sign on the white board at the house with the orange x1...

NO POWERTURNS}
Old     (detonate69)      Join Date: Apr 2001       05-12-2008, 3:10 PM Reply   
I will be putting up a "new and improved" no powerturns sign on old river this summer. It may not help but it will make me feel better
Old     (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-12-2008, 3:40 PM Reply   
i wanna paint a big banner and hang it from the deck railing out there too....its so disheartening when we roll out after work and there's only a small stretch of good water and there's some idiota out there rippin pt's
Old     (deltaridah)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-12-2008, 3:46 PM Reply   
get one of those hand held loud speakers and just let them fools have it. I went to radio shack the other day to get one but they were out!
Old     (tinytdubb)      Join Date: Jul 2007       05-12-2008, 4:16 PM Reply   
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/ele/672151237.html


oh this could get good
Old     (wakeboardmatt)      Join Date: Jun 2007       05-12-2008, 6:29 PM Reply   
Hahaha! Yes I am deffinately going to invest in one of those.
Old     (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       05-12-2008, 7:14 PM Reply   
In my experience, most of the time it is not an issue of education. Most wakeboarders know not to powerturn, but they do it anyway because they don't care about anyone else but themselves. These are the same people who cut course, drive in the wrong direction, or break some other safety or lake rule. But these same people won't do it if there is a Ranger or Lake Patrol nearby. This elitist attitude that the rules don't apply to me or that I could care less what anyone else thinks is what gives wakeboarders a bad image.
Old     (deltaridah)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-12-2008, 7:25 PM Reply   
their dumbass's thier messing up thier own water. from what i have seen is the opposite they dont know any better. But ya there are some that dont care and are selfish.
Old     (marvin)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-12-2008, 8:35 PM Reply   
Summer is coming on fast and it looks like we are going to be dealing with a lot more of this stuff. Just think about adding a PWC power turning in the same spot for 3hrs. Then trying to follow you all day to jump your wake..... While you have a rider out!!!!!
Old     (kana12)      Join Date: Jan 2008       05-12-2008, 11:55 PM Reply   
the big thing at our lake is that the damm is realy short and that is where the nice water is. its only about 1min and a hlf until the end so you are turning alot. i didnt know either until i ordered the book and it educated me alot about turning in to the shore when turning ariound and the wake will dicipate against the shore and the other side will roll into the mouth of the lake. we can run the same prop wash all day long and have butter but all the other will run all the way down to the end and tunt the opposite or just make a giant cirle around the cove over and over and over and before you know it its a giant soup bowl of chop. id love to go be nice and say something but most of the time people want to fight over being wrong and that would be the last thing i need with my kidos in the boat.
Old     (kana12)      Join Date: Jan 2008       05-12-2008, 11:57 PM Reply   
just misspelled all of that but you get the point its 2 am and i dont really care.. lol
Old     (marvin)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-13-2008, 7:50 PM Reply   
I hear you William, I usually do not say anything or even throw the WTF hands UNLESS I feel like the idiots are putting my riders in danger. I hate to but I can almost deal with power turners but putting someone's life in danger is another deal. I, like most of you, have witnessed some pretty bone headed things. I do not hold it together well if someone comes at my rider. We have my friends kids around us a lot on the lake and I know exactly what you mean.
Old     (yorwakebordfrend)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-14-2008, 3:36 PM Reply   
even if you are a good rider you look like junk when your boat power turns.

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