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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-08-2015, 8:51 PM Reply   
Nothing new here. What are your thoughts on the Swarm of Imagrants invading Eroupe. I would not want to be living in that region of the world right now. And do you find it Ironic that all these immigrants are from Muslim country's. Why are these immigrants fleeing as the media calls it to NON Muslim country's like Germany and the UK? If the western world is so bad and Christian values so horiable why are the Muslim Immagrants wanting to set up shop in Mostley Christian value areas?
Old     (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-09-2015, 6:36 AM Reply   
What frustrates me and we see it here also. They flee their countries while trying to force their countries views policies etc on us.
If your home country and it's ways were so freaking great move back there.
You obviously left because there is problems there so don't try to take our working system and try to screw it up.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 7:26 AM Reply   
talk about a Trojan Horse. These people coming across in to Eroupe and turn community's into small versions of where they came from. How do you think the U.S. Would handle it if we were in Eroupe's shoes right now? I saw a program where Sweden was complaining that a mass migration of Muslims have turned sections of their towns into Ghettos that are economic dead zones. Every other building is a place of worship or a food store. And non Muslims are not welcome.

Sounds Fun NOT
Old     (whiteflashwatersports1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       09-09-2015, 7:42 AM Reply   
Uhhh did you ever here of little Italy? Chinatown? etc etc here in cities in the US. Pennsylvania dutch country which is actually Deutsche country as in heavily German influence
Old     (onthecreek)      Join Date: Apr 2013       09-09-2015, 9:13 AM Reply   
Gotta wonder if the media is making this a bigger deal than it would otherwise be. Seems like there's always an oppressed group on the move. Is this latest wave really something different and bigger or just reported more?
Old     (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 9:40 AM Reply   
All of our families moved to America for a better opportunity. Unless you're 100% native American of course.

When large populations move they usually set up ghettos. The Irish had ghettos in the early 1900s in towns like Boston, the Germans had ghettos in the mid west. Even further back the the colonies were divided based on the groups that immigrated there such as the puritans colonizing New England and the Quakers colonizing Pennsylvania.
When my family came from Portugal in 1900 they came to an area in California that was almost all Portuguese and they pretty much stayed there through the 1970s.

When you leave your home to a totally foreign place, of course you want to be around people who you can relate to. It takes a generation or two before assimilation starts occurring.

Stupid little example: in high school I transfer schools (to the next town over) because the school I was at was very ghetto and no one was making it to college. The first few weeks at the new school I hung out with the 2 kids that were from my old school. They were basically the kind of students I was trying to break away from, but I still had more in common with them then the other students who I didnt know at all yet. It took a while to adapt and adjust to the new school's culture.

Immigration has been happening forever, and our families have done it at one point. Why cant modern immigration happen? Was it only okay when our white ancestors did it? If you look at history, western european immigrants settled in america first (after the native americans), when the central and southern europeans (along with Irish) began immigrated to america turn of the (late 1800s-early 1900s) there was a lot of racism and hatred toward them from the Western Europeans who had been there for a century or more. And now after a century, even those whose families had to suffer when they came here from southern and central europe are doing the same to new immigrants who just want the same opportunities that those people's ancestors got. It has always happened and it will always happen.

Different topic:
Muslim vs Christian values in germany and the UK? I think you mean western values versus middle eastern values. Christianity is not nearly as embedded into government and society in western Europe as it is in America. As a whole, Europe is a lot less "religious" in that sense.
It's just american news trying to make the differences stand out between the immigrants and the "natives". Again, just like how there was a lot of catholic hate when Irish and Italian immigrants first came to America.

Sorry for being long winded, but I am a History teacher with a background in Sociology and I find this stuff very interesting. It's so interesting to watch cycles and trends throughout history. We can learn a lot about ourselves that way.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 11:02 AM Reply   
Mitch you make great points, But looking at how middle eastern values are greatly different and so engrained in themed how different they are from
Western values I see a firestorm on the horizon. Places in Europe are experiencing issues where Muslims come to Europe and want Their own "Sharia Law" and they seem to NOT want to integrate but to re create what they came from. My point is this "what you came from didn't work" escaping to a better life is human nature. I don't fault them for wanting a better life. Where it gets twisted is the religious baggage they bring with them. That was my Trojan Horse reference.

In a perfect situation people could Immagrate and become part of the system & culture. I understand and agree with your changing new school scenario. But I also recognize then need for us all to be come One. The Latin translation for. "e pluribus unum" (printed on all U.S. currency) translates into "From Many we are one"
I'm all for that. I'm not for people migrating like Locus to suck off the local resource to offer nothing in return.
Old     (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 11:30 AM Reply   
Assimilation is a rough process and like I mentioned it usually takes a generation or two.

You will notice middle eastern Americans who are second and third generation are pretty much completely assimilated compared to first generation immigrants.

This struggle will always exist. I dont know how the process can be sped up without creating more tension.
I think if the receiving country was more accepting of immigrants and understanding of the assimilation process/time, then maybe there might be less value clashing and tension. But that's pretty Utopian.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 11:39 AM Reply   
Well think of it like this Mitch, you invite people into your house for dinner and then they start treating your home as if it was there OWN. How do you think you would receive that?

How about this! instead of Migrants coming in and expecting there new guest home to have all the same laws and culture that they came from is it so unresonalbe for migrants to assimilate to the region they have chosen to settle in at. I think the saying "When in Rome" applies. How would it go if you and me were to set up camp in Iran do you think they would be very accommodating ?
Old     (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 12:42 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
Well think of it like this Mitch, you invite people into your house for dinner and then they start treating your home as if it was there OWN. How do you think you would receive that?
That example doesn't quite work because there are no home owners. They are just guests that have been there longer. They came the dinner party and had to get settled into the proper etiquette, and then after they have been there a while a new group comes to the dinner party and now needs to settle in and learn the etiquette, and the cycle continues.

How can we say this place is OURS when we(our families) immigrated here at some point. Do you not think they resisted the change? We (our families) were all foreigners once.

How would it go if you and me were to set up camp in Iran do you think they would be very accommodating ?
We obviously know Iran has problems, and so do their people. That's why many are leaving. So why should we compare the USA or other western nations to Iran? Don't we want to be more civilized and treat others better (I know that is very biased)?
The immigrants will settle in and assimilate. It just takes time. It blows over eventually, it always does. There are rare examples of people who stay in China town for generations, but generally they move out and assimilate.

A local/state/federal law is the law. Everyone has to follow them. Immigrants end up figuring that out. Again, there might be some that might resist (such as a black market for things like Shark Fin soup or other things that are prized in one country but illegal here), but the majority will conform to the laws. This isnt knew.

And I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying that there is no need to panic or overreact. Immigration happens and sometimes it comes in big waves.

America as an Example
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 1:07 PM Reply   
Mitch I don't see it as arguing more as you and I are engaged in a civilized discussion. I see your point.

My parents came to this country from Australia in the 70s. Both my parents seek a naturalized US citizens. When my grandmother was getting older my parents invited her to come stay with them here in the US. At the time when she was thinking about coming over here they made my parents sign a document saying if she ever incurred any expenses that my parents would be liable for the cost. Same goes for my wife's parents they immigrated from Norway and the immigration judge made it a point to tell them that they needed to learn and speak English before they would grant them citizenship. You make it a point to bring up how are parents parents all immigrated here therefore it's no big deal. I can tell you this with utmost certainty the original people immigrated here embraced the American culture and became American citizens not turning their back on their heritage. But integrating in with what we have here. That doesn't seem to be the case nowadays.
Old     (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-09-2015, 2:14 PM Reply   
So I was unsure about naturalization requirements and had to look it up, but you are totally right about them having to know english

I totally agree with you about how the original people who immigrated here embraced american culture. That is because the original immigrants were the first ones to create and shape the american culture from their existing culture. Before that it was native american culture. As time goes on, we add new layers to american culture as more people come here and we adopt things we like and reject those that we dont. And that varies regionally depending on where people settle (California vs Texas vs West Virginia all very different cultures)

My point in all of this is that there is no need for xenophobia. We live in a desirable place. We came her for a reason, so why cant others come here too? Did they miss the cut off?

I have this discussion with my mother in law too often. She lives in a very white upper middle class part of the Bay Area that is extremely safe and has high paying jobs. She moved from southern California because she thought it was nicer up here. But now she is always complaining how the city is growing too fast and people need to stop moving here because they aren't from here. I think it is very ironic. She moved here because it is desirable, but she doesn't like that others find it desirable. People probably said the same thing about her moving here from Southern California.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-09-2015, 3:00 PM Reply   
It's also worth noting that Europe generally has been a net exporter of human capital for many generations. People don't move TO Europe, they move away to some other part of the world. Now new peeps are moving there based at least in part on political instability that was fostered by Euro colonialism and intervention. North Africa, Syria, Palestine, etc etc was all "owned" by one Euro power or another in the not-to-distant past.
Old     (TerryR)      Join Date: Aug 2010       09-11-2015, 3:43 PM Reply   
Some think it's an invasion. I'm not sure.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-21-2015, 9:55 AM Reply   
CBS reports that the U.S. Has agreed to take 90,000 immigrants. 10 thousand more then we first said we would take?


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