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Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-22-2010, 7:41 AM Reply   

A couple of weeks ago or so my Expedition started taking a bit longer to start than normal. It would normally fire up in 3 or so turns of the engine. Now it's taking up to 10 ish or so to start.

It has 100K miles and I really haven't done much to it over the course of the last 30K. It probably needs some sort of tune up. I bought it with 65K miles so I'm not sure what the previous owner has done.

Old     (camassanger)      Join Date: Oct 2009       02-22-2010, 7:48 AM Reply   
had the same problem. Try replacing the fuel filter - its a 2 minute job. Just under the drivers side, about where the backseat door is - mounted to frame. Just have a tin can handy for a small amount of fuel to spill into while you make the switch. Hope this helps.

Assuming that you've already changed spark plugs. They're due at 100K. That could explain it too.
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-22-2010, 7:50 AM Reply   
I looked at doing the sparks plugs. Is that a do it yourself kind of job? They looked pretty well covered by a bunch of crap. Gone are the days of working on my 65 mustang where you could sit in the engine compartment while working on the engine. :-)

I was thinking fuel filter too. Thanks for the advise. It runs fine otherwise. It's just the starting that is weird.
Old     (jimmy_z)      Join Date: Jun 2009       02-22-2010, 12:58 PM Reply   
Cycle the key to ON....not Start. Wait a second. Then to OFF. Now try starting.

Let me know the results?
Old     (dave27)      Join Date: May 2005       02-22-2010, 1:11 PM Reply   
How old is the battery?
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-22-2010, 1:55 PM Reply   
Battery is probably 5 years old. It cranks just fine. Doesn't hesitate at all. I'll give the key thing a try when I get home.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-22-2010, 2:43 PM Reply   
I am with Jim on this one. Probably a fuel pump. If it were me, I would current ramp the pump, but few techs seem to know how to do that. A fuel pressure gauge would also answer a lot of questions.

On Ford's does the fuel pump kick on when you turn the key on for three seconds? If not you may have to bump the starter over, then release the key until you hear the fuel pump shut down. Doing this a couple times in a row primes the fuel pump. Then if it fires right up the system is at max pressure that the pump can currently produce.

If it does need a pump make sure to replace the fuel filter and the fuel pump relay at the same time.

Although the fuel filters should be changed about every 30K, the filter is rarely the problem. Also not letting the fuel tank get low will help extend the fuel pumps life, since it is cooled by the fuel around it.

BTW that little hiccup on starting is probably the only warning you are going to get before it strands you.

As to the rest of the tune, well air filters are a piece of cake to change. They seem to need replacement about 15K, at least in Cali. The plugs should be changed about every 50K max! Yeah the manufacturer says 100K but when you see them at a 100K you will understand. Can you change the plugs yourself is a good question. Are you prepared to have them pull the threads and then you have to get a thread repair kit and drill them out, tap the hole and install a time-sert kit? If so go for it. Depending on your year they had a big problem with the spark plug holes. They also have an updated spark plug.
Old     (dabell)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-22-2010, 3:49 PM Reply   
You are pushing it on the batter of 5 years for sure. Does the temp/directional display turn on when you start the SUV? If the display is blank and you have to cycle to the numbers, the battery is going on you.

I have a 2002 Ford Expedition with 91k on it and had the battery for 5 years. The battery was my issue.

However, I am no mechanic by any means but the battery was my issue for sure. Good luck.

(Message edited by dabell on February 22, 2010)
Old     (jtnz)      Join Date: Sep 2007       02-22-2010, 7:08 PM Reply   
If you pull the fuel pump fuse/relay and run the truck til it dies you can change the fuel filter without worrying about fuel spraying out under pressure when you remove the filter, under pressure they tend to spray gas in your face. Might still be a bit in the line but you can catch that pretty easily.

Probably not a good idea with a diesel but it since you're talking about spark plugs too you should be safe.

(Message edited by jtnz on February 22, 2010)
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-23-2010, 7:48 AM Reply   
Well, it appears it starts just fine if I turn the key on, then off, then turn it on and start it. It also did fine by cranking it over just a bit, waiting, then starting it up, all the while with the key on.

Fuel pump issue?
Old     (dave27)      Join Date: May 2005       02-23-2010, 8:03 AM Reply   
I would start with the easy stuff. First, a 5 year old battery is not good, second you need to change the fuel filter. These two things are just good maintenance. Then after that if you still have a problem, investigate the fuel pump further.
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-23-2010, 8:28 AM Reply   
Sounds good. I'll give it a go.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-23-2010, 9:03 AM Reply   
Your truck gave you the warning sign. Next it is going to leave you stranded. You have a bad fuel pump. Even if the check valve failed (The check valve is in the fuel pump assembly) the pump should still prime itself in less then two seconds. The filter being plugged may be a symptom, but again if the pump was healthy and putting out proper pressure it would overcome a slightly plugged fuel filter. Chrysler, GM, and Ford fuel pumps are known for lasting to right around the 100K mark.

The pump in is the fuel tank. Typically the hard start issue will actually go away on a full tank. Don't fill your tank. The less fuel in the tank for repair the better. If it is a 4x4 there is probably a skid plate. Doing the pump is not a fun job. Doesn't really take much in the way of tools and most could easily be purchased. I would dread doing one in a driveway, but it could be done.

Year make model and 4x2 or 4x4?
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-23-2010, 9:43 AM Reply   
03 Ford Expedition 4x4. I'll probably look around and see what a shop would charge. I've never heard it was fun changing one of those out.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-23-2010, 10:12 AM Reply   
From MOTORCRAFT Part # PFS453 {#2L1Z9H307BG} $251.49. I would never count on bringing your own part to a shop and having them install it. I put that price in for reference. The DIY approach to life is a huge money savings, especially when using the world wide web for resources.

Edit: This is for everything including the relay labor and part. Relay labor is .7 and the part is $12.??.

(Message edited by peter_c on February 23, 2010)
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-23-2010, 10:20 AM Reply   
Ouchy mama! Guess it's time to look at that diesel I've been wanting. :-)
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-23-2010, 10:28 AM Reply   
Current ramp the fuel pump? Who does that kind of thing? Ha, ha, ha.... J/K Peter.

Honestly, Peter and Jimmy are probably dead on with the fuel pump diagnosis. If you've made it 100k on the original it's time for replacement anyway. It's a ticking time bomb at that point.

Do a fuel pump and filter together.

As was previously mentioned, check the 100k service items. I've never met a spark plug that was really happy going to 100k. Even a lot of the manufactures have backed down on their initial 100k recomendations. That said, it generally wont cause long cranking, and would likely give misfire faults and a check engine light if plugs were your problem.

A 5 year old battery is on it's way out. I would usually recomend replacement at 4 years, but may go to 5 if the battery still tests well. You start losing a lot of your reserve capacity at that point.

Shawn, the pump, filter, labor and remainder of the tune-up will cost less than the taxes on that diesel. Now, I'm a pretty big proponent of diesels, but I'd say you're better off getting that Expedition running right.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-23-2010, 10:34 AM Reply   
There is also a long shot possibility that you have an injector leaking down. It will give similar symptoms to a fuel pump on some vehicles. It'll allow the pressure in the fuel rail to dissipate and cause long cranking on startup, sometimes accompanied with a puff of black smoke on first start.

That said.... I stick by the prior assesment that changing your fuel pump/filter at 100k is a fair safety measure.

If the problem persists you need to check pressure at the rail.

Incidently, if you bring it into a shop they should diagnose it for you. I would never take a customers word for diagnosis. I'm sure some shops will, but if you diagnose your car yourself, then don't bring it in to me without expecting me to charge to confirm it.
Old     (jimmy_z)      Join Date: Jun 2009       02-23-2010, 11:00 AM Reply   
Guess you guys got it handled.

Shawn, your fuel pump will leave you stranded most likely sooner than later.

So either have it repaired very soon or get that diesel you always wanted.

No sense in paying for a tow bill or the even bigger hit you would take on a non-running trade in.

If you are going to sell privately please do the right thing and have it repaired before selling or at least advise the buyer of your fuel pump issue and cost.

IMO....hope you keep it. She's barely broken in!!!!
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-23-2010, 11:10 AM Reply   
Found this thread if anyone else is interested in changing a pump out by themselves. I'm not too sure I want to tackle it. There are a couple of places that could be an issue. Like the locking ring on the fuel pump. I don't have a tool to remove that. Saving $400 on labor though would buy a bunch of tools!

(Message edited by helinut on February 23, 2010)

(Message edited by helinut on February 23, 2010)
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-23-2010, 11:55 AM Reply   
If I was doing the job myself it would probably cost me less than $300 completed. Much better than the $950 a shop would charge. That is the benefit of DIY.

The tool for removing the fuel pump assembly is a giant pair of slip joint pliers aka channel lock pliers. They come in handy for many different jobs including removing oil filters.

Edit: Of course a floor jack comes in real handy, and if there is more than a 1/4 of gas, I would recommend draining the tank as much as possible. Since you are changing the fuel filter you can disconnect the fuel line there and run it into a gas can or another vehicle, then jumper the relay that you are going to replace, and empty the tank. The tank alone is heavy. The tank full of fuel is dangerous.

(Message edited by peter_c on February 23, 2010)
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-23-2010, 3:12 PM Reply   
I didn't see the reference to the relay I should replace. Did you have a part number handy for that one?

Thank you very much for the help so far. I'm going to tackle this one alone! Told the wife that if I did it myself, I'd would have $600 worth of budget to spend on new tools! :-)
Old     (blastmaster)      Join Date: Aug 2001       02-23-2010, 8:31 PM Reply   
Just had the exact problem with 01 Expeditiona 5.4 last month. Had to drop fuel tank and replace both fuel pump and sending unit. Bit of advice Get the Ford OEM. The aftermarket from Kragen is not too relbialbe form what I read on ford forums. It is not the fuel filter but I would replace it too.

By the way I had intermittant hard starting, Then one day drove it, would not restart at all. Called tow truck and 4 hours later surprise it starts.

Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-24-2010, 7:35 AM Reply   
I'm assuming the part number Peter listed above is the OEM part?

So this is the list of the parts I think I need.

Fuel pump and sender (is this one unit?)
Fuel filter
Relay ( Looking for a part number for this and where it might be located on the truck )

Look good? Could someone chime in on the relay? I'm probably going to order this stuff this week.

Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-24-2010, 7:47 AM Reply   
Ford F5TZ-14N089-B - RELAY

Unless aftermarket is higher quality, which is rare, OEM is always the way to go.
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-24-2010, 11:47 AM Reply   
Is the fuel pump and sender all included in the same unit? I'm assuming so.
Old     (curtisco24)      Join Date: Dec 2005       02-24-2010, 12:12 PM Reply   
yes should be. Hardest part is pulling the tank. Those things are heavy.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-24-2010, 12:16 PM Reply   
When you pull the tank you may want to use your floor jack to lower it down. A tranny jack works best, but you should be able to use a floor jack if it goes up high enough.

Like Peter said, make sure it's as empty as possible.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-24-2010, 12:38 PM Reply   
Good gracious Shawn learn to do a little homework It was listed in the estimate post a long time ago, so I didn't bother responding.
"Motorcraft Fuel Pump is designed to provide exact specified flow rate and pressure. It is equipped with hot fuel handling to provide consistent performance. This fuel pump is supplied with fuel level sensor for accurate fuel gauge readings. It has connectors for positive electrical connections and precision balanced armature to ensure quiet, reliable in-tank operation. This fuel pump facilitates hassle free installation and is durable as well as efficient. It is backed by a 12 month warranty."

If you post your credit card info, I would be more than happy to order "Some stuff off the internet". Just having a little fun with you

A floor jack is going to be a requirement, if you don't have one or can't borrow one, Costco stocks them 90% of the time. Might as well get a decent one. I use mine all the time, but then again I tinker a lot at home, and DIY most everything in life.
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-24-2010, 1:44 PM Reply   
Yeah, the part that was throwing me off though was the sending unit. Wasn't exactly sure what that was. :-) My card number is 3342 3467 7753 5411 Have fun!
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-24-2010, 2:58 PM Reply   
Awesome, now we just need expiration and a CVV code.

Ha, ha, ha.... Good luck, man.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-25-2010, 10:38 AM Reply   
I just got this in my email from iATN. I had forgotten all the issues that Ford has

04 Ford F-150 5.4 Spark Plug Removal
Technical Tips Forum
Thomas from South Carolina

Most iATN members are aware of the Ford 4.6, 5.4 and 6.0 spark plug breaking issue. Having the same frustration, even when following the Ford service bulletin I have added some steps that seem to help aid in the removal of the plugs without breaking.

The Ford service bulletin 08-7-6 which updates 08-1-9 is of some value, as I follow those steps after doing some prep work.

This is what I do.

1: Explain to Owner that this is a long process and they will need to be without their vehicle for two maybe three days. I try to convince owners not to exceed 80,000 miles for spark plug replacement interval.

2: The first morning run engine to operating temperature and remove the crankcase vent hose, the small one on the passenger side of the air cleaner housing.

3: Either use a pedal jack or have helper hold throttle to 2,000 rpm. Using suction spray nozzle, spray GM upper engine and fuel injector cleaner #88861802, into the vent port on air cleaner housing. After 3 ounces have been used and while still spraying have helper shut engine off. (throttle still held open)

4: After sitting for 1 hour repeat step #3 after running engine to operating temperature.

5: Before closing on day 1, Repeat step #3 again after running engine to operating temperature. Place vehicle in the bay in which you intend to work. This allows engine to cool overnight to ambient temperature as necessary.

6: Day 2 start plug removal process.

I also add the following steps to the next phase of plug removal.

1: Break the plugs 1/8 turn only, then fill to hex of pug with penetrating oil. I use PB blaster. After 1/2 hour tighten plug and loosen 1/4 to 1/2 turn be sure penetrating oil is still to the hex of the plug. After 1 hour, tighten plugs and then work them out alternating loosening and tightening.

I have found that while removing the plugs if they squeak, they come out intact. No squeak and they are broken.

Using these additional steps I have been able to remove plugs with no more that 2 breaking. Some 1 and others none. I may be doing more work than necessary but it is a pain to remove the broken tips.

Speaking of removing broken tips, the tool that I have found to work the best is the Lisle #65600.

I listed this as 04 F150 because this is the vehicle that I just finished. #6 broke, all others came out intact. This applies to other Ford vehicles.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-25-2010, 10:59 AM Reply   
The only step I would add is to run to full operating temp on day 2 before you try to remove. At least that is the case on MBZ twin plug engines. The problem there is that carbon builds up on the threads that are exposed to combustion. If you don't soften the carbon you are SOL. Some motors are way worse than others. I think a lot of the problems stem from driving style and fuel quality.

That said.... I would never exceed 60k on 100k plugs for my own vehicle. My last Tahoe got new plugs at 50k just as a pre-caution. I don't like messing with things like broken plugs.
Old     (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-25-2010, 11:08 AM Reply   
Good crap. That sounds like a job for the shop to do. Nothing I would want to venture in to. I'll be doing the fuel pump and such. Just need to get the stuff ordered.

Thanks again for all of your help guys. I really appreciate it. If you're ever up here, let me know and we'll go for a pull or three behind the boat!


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