A question about religion and the earthquake.

For those of you who feel that God reaches down and saves a life, please explain to me how God could reach down and wipe out thousands.

Natural disasters are not in themselves evil or a failure of God. A classic example of this is earthquakes. An earthquake causes massive damage to humans and can result in extreme losses of life. The fact is, however, that earthquakes are a part of the processes that keep the earth living and suitable for life. Land masses wear down with time because of rain, snow, freezing, heating, glaciers, landslides, and gravitational forces. If there were no forces that lift the land to replenish the worn away parts, after a while all land on the earth would be under water. Because the earth is liquid inside, land is constantly being lifted to replace the land that is worn down. Places like California are actually being elevated by these forces, and that allows life to flourish and prosper. Volcanoes do the same thing; but in addition, they add new elements and nutrients to the soil, making plant growth accelerate and sustaining the food chain.

Man's problem is that rather than understanding these processes as natural and beneficial, we tend to worship the forces and ignore the common sense lessons all around us. If you build your house in the mouth of a volcano you have no complaint when it erupts. People continue to ignore the warnings of nature and the lessons of the past. The results are frequently catastrophic. Draining wet-lands, building huge structures that alter climate, and placing massive structures over fault zones in the earth have resulted in tragedy for humans.

God placed humans on the earth with instructions to take care of the earth -- to dress it and keep it (see Genesis 2: 15). That means not to abuse the earth, but to use it wisely and carefully. In this way we can be at peace with our environment. Western civilization has too often allowed greed and selfishness to be the guiding force. Instead we need to have a love for what God has created and a desire to take care of it and live at peace with it.

Terrorist outdone by God yet again.

Oh ye of little faith..

One thing I've learned is you will never win with a "sign seeker".

Good insight Ben.

Magellan - Read Genesis 3. Death was not God's plan for us. We brought that upon ourselves.

All that being said...be praying for the people of Haiti. I can't even imagine the pain and heartache they are experiencing. I just feel terrible for them.

I see Pat Robertson is representing the Christian faith.

Death was not God's plan for us.

This statement makes no sense wrt an omniscient god.

"Death was not God's plan for us"

I know there are thousands of ways to translate passages from the Bible, but if that's not his plan wouldn't that mean he intends for us to live forever? Death, as you know, is inevitable

Wes - I know you are smarter than that. Would substituting "desire" instead of "plan" make it more clear? The fall vs. God's desire for mankind in no way affects his ability to be omniscient. Just because he knew man would fall did not mean he desired for it to happen.

GOD had nothing to do with this because he is entirely a man made concept that we hold in our heads.

In a sense attributing such human attributes to god is silly, but regardless you're saying that your God created flawed beings that he knew would do exactly what you say he didn't want them to. Sounds like an omniscient glutton for punishment. What an interesting cosmic farce.

natural disasters and mass deaths = mother natures way of dealing with over population

Well, I think you choose a bad word. You assigned the word "flawed" which should really have been "beings with the ability to choose". Do you think God did bad by giving us free will? Should we have been created as robots?

Do you think God was caught off guard when man sinned? I guess if you don't believe God exists then this is a question that can not be answered.

I don't believe Yahweh exists. But I can talk about him wrt what is presented about him in the bible and in mainstream Christian thought. And the fact remains that you are blaming creatures for sin rather than a creator that created them knowing full well that they would sin. So where does the flaw lie? I am assuming you don't see Yahweh as flawed, in which case the flaw lies in the created.

Should we have been created as robots?

Given that the only alternative choice was to burn in hell for eternity, I'd say yes we should have been created as robots. Would you damn anyone to eternal hell for a single bad choice? Mathematically speaking a lifetime of bad choices in relation to eternity is no different than a single bad choice.

GD - Do you have any political aspirations? I'd certainly vote for you.

A single bad choice that their (fictional) ancestor made, not that they themselves made.

SIDE NOTE: A perfect God includes the attribute of mercy. Perfect beings have no need for mercy. While I understand that it's controversial, I believe the "fall" of man (the introduction of sin) was necessary for God's full character to be revealed.

And the revelation of God's glory is the ultimate point of everything -- the earth, man, etc.

RESPONSE TO OP: If I understand right, your question is how can God permit/allow/cause the loss of life, is that right?

I guess I'd answer that question with a question that presents a different perspective: What obligation is the God of the universe under to keep people alive on Earth? If he doesn't, does that make him an inferior God?

If the introduction of sin was necessary for God's full character to be revealed, then God's full character is pretty horrible indeed. It also doesn't say much for God's communication skills, lol.

And if the revelation of God's glory is the ultimate point of everything, that's definitely not a god worth worshipping!

Matt, it doesn't make him an inferior god, just an immoral one. But a read of the bible will make that aspect of Yahweh pretty clear.

A single bad choice that their (fictional) ancestor made, not that they themselves made.

This statement is misleading and inaccruate. Yes, the fall began with Adam and Eve but has continued with the rest of mankind. Have I not sinned as well so what makes me different from Adam?}

Immoral by what standards? Don't you see the irony in your post?

Wow, a lot of ignorant post in this thread, I will pray for you, whom have made these ignorant post.

Sorry Eubanks, I did not mean to mislead - I am referring to the belief that A&E's original sin brought about the fall, not only of man but of creation, and that it is the source of all the bad that happens in the world - and that it "changed" humanity forever, making us the frail, weak, flawed beings we are ravaged by disease, shorter lifespans, etc etc. Many Christians do not take the events of Genesis as literal history, but rather as allegory and hold that we as individuals each fall on our own (and in turn many hold that we are born pure). But the more mainstream and traditional theology is that no one is "pure" and that anyone who dies unsaved (including children) are screwed. Then of course there are a thousand shades of ethnocentric grey with varying beliefs as to what happens to youngsters (and those geographically unfortunate) who have not been exposed to Christianity and/or do not have the faculties to understand or make such a choice.

Immoral by his own standards ;-)

Jeff, thanks for the condescension.

I think the bible is clear about original sin and when the fall of man occurred. Also, if you think we are born "pure" then put two 1 year old boys in a room together with one toy and see how pure they are really straight out of the woom.

The last couple of your sentences are actually addressed in Romans 1. There are other places as well but that is a good start. (Romans 1:18-20)

"Sounds like an omniscient glutton for punishment."

That's a perfectly reasonable statement given your perspective. Here's one from another perspective: Sounds like a God who loves his people enough to imbue them with free will despite the disruption to what He desires.

It's something like a smart and loving parent who gives a child the freedom to make decisions, knowing full well that some decisions will lead to disappointment and heartache for the child, others, and the parent. The parent does this because s/he knows that the alternative - trying to exert control over kids' lives - is contrary to the child's nature and only breeds contempt for the parent.

_________________________

Did I miss the meeting where a ~ 2 billion Christians appointed Robertson to be their spokesman?

Robertson is speaking for no one but himself. He certainly does not speak for me or for any Christian I know.

Wow, a lot of ignorant post in this thread, I will pray for you, whom have made these ignorant post.

Don't waste your prayer on us. Instead, pray that God use his magic to give you the ability to compose a gramatically correct sentence.

Or better yet, one that's grammatically correct.

Nice catch, Jeff. I put that in there just for you. ;)

Nice.

How can you love someone enough to give them the single alternative option of eternal damnation? That truly is an odd perspective.

Jeff, glad to hear that extremists like Robertson do not represent you. Hope to see that kind of attitude wrt Muslims and extremist Muslim leaders in other discussions.

Your analogy doesn't really work because the leeway given to children comes with an expectation that mistakes can be learned from and growth occur as a result - rather than creating beings with the knowledge that they are flawed and you are therefore going to have to burn them in hell for all eternity.

Wes,

And if the revelation of God's glory is the ultimate point of everything, that's definitely not a god worth worshipping!

I understand why you feel that way. But if the ultimate being were consumed with anything else, he wouldn't be ultimate being. If God places concern for humans higher than the revlation of his glory, God is essentially worshipping humans.

Thankfully, I'm not tasked with changing minds. Just spreading the message.

I think the single alternative is eternity with God. Eternal separation from God is the path we are all on by our own accord...He has made a way for us to to take a different path now.

I've noticed that Christians aren't concerned about the disgrace that Robertson brings to their religion until someone else brings attention to it. That's sort of how Muslim leaders are wrt Islamic extremists.

I've noticed that Christians aren't concerned about the disgrace that Robertson brings to their religion until someone else brings attention to it.

How have you come to this conclusion? Because no Christians posted on Wakeworld to bash this guy?}

Eternity with God can't be the single alternative to eternity with God.

What are you talking about John?

What did Robertson say?

Pat's been around saying BS for a while.

He said that Haiti's problems stem from a pact with the devil they made in the 1700's to free themselves as slaves from the French. Presumably God doesn't help slaves and sides with slave owners. So the only way to get help was to work with Satan.

John - Who said that? You're making eternity withOUT God as the alternative and I'm telling you that it IS the path in place for you and I from birth. What we ARE given is the single alternative to alter our eternity and "save" us from the path we are on. That is the amazing part of the story.

The pretzel just keeps twisting and twisting, doesn't it John.

1) YHWH is morally perfect
2) from 1 any act YHWH condones, commands, or causes is morally permissible/mandated
3) from 1 any actYHWH forbids is morally impermissible
4) the biblical record accurately lists many acts condoned, commanded, or caused by YHWH
5) the biblical record lists acts which YWHW forbids but which YHWH also condones, commands, or causes
6) it is incoherent for a morally perfect being to condone, command, or cause immoral acts

Now you can obviously challenge #1, but that isn't exactly possible within the realm of Judeochristian belief. #4 can also be challenged, and sometimes is within the realm of Christian believers, but at a serious cost, which is why so many vehemently defend the infallibility and inerrancy of the text.

Typically it is #6 that is challenged with believers claiming that YHWH is not bound by the moral standard required of us mere humans (an odd idea that a higher being would be held to a lesser standard). Thus, while it is true that we are commanded not to rape or murder, YHWH is not required to refrain from carrying out or ordering us to commit such acts. YHWH, being the author of the moral standard, is perfectly free to disregard them whenever He sees fit.

First, such an argument only works if one abandons the assumption of YHWH providing humans with unchanging, unalterable moral standards. If YHWH can ignore or tell us to ignore those standards on a whim, then they aren’t absolute and unchanging. Many believers insist on the existence of such absolute standards and argue that the existence of YHWH ensures the reliability of such standards, as opposed to the “relativistic” morals of humans (see the I Wrote My First Blog thread).

Second, this criticism makes it more difficult to think of God as being morally perfect. If God is not bound by moral rules against mass slaughter and is free to commit such abominable acts, in what way can we reasonably say that God is “good”? To say that God is morally perfect despite committing immoral acts renders the concept of “morally perfect” incoherent.

The whole point of Christ's life, death, and resurrection (and the teaching of Christianity) is that God, in His love grace and mercy, has done what only He can do - He provided the means to avoid the eternal consequences of our rebellion by suffering those consequences himself, even while we were and are in rebellion.

In that respect, Christianity is unique among religions. Other religions that focus on god or gods tell you how to "be good" and earn god's love; Christianity tells you that you are loved and provides the means to experience that love.

The idea of worshipping a supposedly perfect/omniscient god that requires brutal blood sacrifice to appease him is pretty ridiculous.

John, you know what else irks me?

That church of loons in Kansas (the ones that call the US •••">••• enablers and protest outside of soldier's funerals) that proclaim themselves Christians, (and who is anyone to argue that one's interpretation of the Bible is incorrect because it differs from his or her own?) are immediately distanced by other "Christians"? Or the Christian that bombs an abortion clinic is not recognized as a "typical" Christian by others. However, all Muslims are categorized as extremists because of a few loon Islamic terrorists by the same Christians.

Sounds like a double standard and hypocrisy at it's finest. Is it not a sin to be a hypocrite?

No Christianity tells you the only way to eternal life is to worship God/Jesus. God worship is the most primitive form of religion. It requires no good deeds, only worshiping the correct idol.

Eubanks, you referred to choice as us not being robots. If you are a robot there is only one path and consequently eternal life with God. Choice gave us the single alternative option of eternal damnation.

Jeremy, that's because we are humans and religion is a struggle of ideologies. The religion trumps all else. Therefore it's better to ignore those who share your ideology even though they bring disgrace to it, than confront them. It's like starting a war on two front's.

Any religion that claims their God is a God of love is going to be mired in a quagmire of contradictions. There is no way to realistically blend that concept together with the reality of human suffering and history of God's abusive nature towards his own creation.

Wrong, wrong, wrong Jeremy and John.

Jeff nailed it.

Do you worship your parents or is it natural to want and to have a relationship with your parents? Christianity is about a relationship with God not worship. All is required is for you to believe Jesus died for your sins and invite God into your heart. It is that simple. Beyond that is seeking a relationship with him and understand and be open to his plans for your life. I don't know what is that hard about it. Obviously you non christians types have it nailed since it sounds so much more complicated in your view. Just as with your relationship with your parents, if you chose to do your will then there will be seperation. They may let you or can't control you in regard to your will, but one way or the other there will be seperation. Does not mean they don't love you. Same with God. You disobey the rules that are set forth don't wonder why things are bad in your life in either case (parents or God).

Jeremy. I don't know if you are asking or telling. If you are telling, you are way more misinformed than I can imagin. Muslims are believed to be the way you speak simply because that is how the religion was formed and that is their doctrine. You really should get on the google and do some research.

I don't know what Pat Robertson really said since I am sure the reporters on here nailed down his words and intent. Even with that, what was explained on here is not biblical. What you can most likely say is the peoples belief system in Haiti may have limited their ability to grow and hopefully have social and economic structures in place to help lesson the distruction. Beyond that, it is pretty ignorant to say God struck them down for their deal with the devil and then completely ignor nature. At the end of the day, what we see as tradgedy is only temporary in the scale of eternity.

Welcome back Rod! Looking forward to your followup to calling me a liar and race baiter on the other thread.

Sounds like you and Matt need to get your heads together and decide what Christianity really is about because your two posts do not connect.

I am trying to find it now matter of fact. I still maintain you are a race baiter. I will hijack this one if you want. Interesting you are upset about me saying you are commiting lies of ommision but don't give a crap you called me a liar.

Thanks for the heart felt welcome back their Wes. Nothing like vacation mixed with infected wisdom tooth and then oral surgery to keep one away for a bit.

Dude, that is not the Muslim doctrine. There are millions of Muslims that do not result to violence to profess their faith. It's an IGNORANT (and yes I emphasize ignorant) stereotype, that you and many others choose to accept as fact. Instead of googling and reading biased opinions, why not reach out to a person of the Muslim faith or try reading the Quran? Isn't this what you would recommend to a non-Christian that suggested Christians are nutcase terrorists? Or would you recommend they google Christianity and accept an atheist's point of view on the manner?

I started a monster..

Also, when you throw out Bible verses and say read them, who wrote them? Do you have hard proof that they were written by someone other than a dart league 2,000 years ago?
I grew up in church but every year I question the validity of religion. I now think it holds similar ground to Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

Any religion that claims their God is a God of love is going to be mired in a quagmire of contradictions. There is no way to realistically blend that concept together with the reality of human suffering and history of God's abusive nature towards his own creation.

That is if you don't know your bible and don't understand the entire story. If you did, then you wouldn't make statements like this because the bible clear as day gives you the reason. Do you know the reason suffering exists and continues to exist on this earth?}

Jeremy, "try reading the Quran?"


Quran 9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."


9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's cause; they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."


8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."


8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."


9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."


47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Other than the story of A&E, no. Please tell me. Clearly Christians aren't able to stop the pain and suffering among themselves, so I'm not sure that a story is going to help.

I have looked it up and I have read the history of Islam and have read some parts of the Quran. Your reach out to muslims is nice but realize that vast majority of Muslims are social Muslims. They don't even realize the origins of their religions. Matter of fact if I remember the study on the subject, I don't even think that muslims are even allowed to read the Quran since they have to read it in Arabic and can only get the information from the Imam at the Mosque. That is another story.

Let's go down this exercise. When did Islam come about roughly. Who was the person who founded islam and how did he get to where he was. Do you know anything about tribal history of the arabs and what do you know about the Hadge (sp?) and the rituals that take place there? What did the founder of islam say about Christian and Jews during his time and why did he then change to preach against them? Do you know what the Quran says about dealing with infidels and what they are allowed to do in those dealings with the infidel?

Do you know the two ways that is taught in the Quran to get to heaven? One is through the scales of justice (works if you will) the other is through Martydom. With a reported 1 billion muslims in the world, it takes a very low percentage to create chaos.

Magellan - The basis for scripture being divinely recorded is stated in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Obviously the reliability, authenticity, and preservation of the word over thousands of years has been documented and proven. There are numerous resources out there that show you the validity of the preservation of the scriptures if you're interested. Some of which are from an atheists point of view if that helps.

Now at some point you have to make a decision whether you believe the Timothy verses or not. If you do not believe, then I agree, arguing anything else contained in the bible is a complete waste of time.

Someday Christians might even be able to agree amongst themselves which books actually belong in the bible and which don't. Then again, maybe they won't. Again, YHWH sure has questionable communication skills. And please don't bring up that tired crap about "how can people choose to believe if god reveals himself, then there's no faith involved." I think he was sufficiently revealed to those in the OT (including A&E) and that didn't stop them from eating apples and/or boning anything that moved (of course, that last one was often with god's blessing).

John - Read 2 Peter 3:9 for the answer. Scripture should always be read in context but that is the meat of the reason for why we are still existing in this broken state.

Wes - Your passion for atheism and to represent your people well is unparalleled. I will sure give you that!

(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT) They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Stay classy, Yahweh.


(Deuteronomy 20:10-14) As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Talk about morality! Yahweh liked his people to get their party on. At least now we have a code of conduct for our soldiers to follow in the Middle East. It'll be like history repeating!


(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of cruel lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: Yahweh

There you go again Eubanks, confusing a dismissal of Yahweh with atheism. The arrogance, oh for shame!!

Good thing Judism is based on the books you posted on Wes. Christianity is based on Jesus.

Wes, that's part of the plan. When the young women is raped and forced by God's word to marry the rapist she is suffering so that she will come to love God. Oh and just so everyone has enough time to suffer and turn to God, you can refer to 2 Peter 3:9. Or maybe he's waiting so he can write a Newer New Testament.

Wes - Sorry Bro. I just figured anybody that goes to the lengths of disproving Christianity as you isn't Agnostic and I don't know of any other religions you follow so passionately!

Either the bible is accurate or it isn't, Rod. Are you saying that Numbers and Deuteronomy are not the true word of god? Blashphemer! Better watch out, that kind of heresy can get you stoned.

Eubanks - many other religions are just as whack, don't worry - but they don't seem to have any followers here (and the claims aren't nearly as strange for the most part).

John - I didn't expect you to be able to understand it, but I wanted to let you know it was there.

Eubanks - I didn't expect you to tell me anything meaningful. I just wanted to give a chance, just in case.

Maybe. The christian faith is based on the teachings of Jesus. Those are pretty well documented. Dance around all you want but at the end of the day, the christian faith is based on Jesus. What does Jesus say about it.

The bible has many stories and history of his people. I don't know for sure why the old testament was included. Was it a choice made by man vs God? I don't know.

Sorry if that was wordly rudely John. I just meant to say that outside of my own thoughts the scriptures do address why we are still living in the midst of sin and why Christ has not returned yet. So God can still be good even though we are enduring suffering at this time.

Rod - I think the scriptures of the OT are just as much part of the Christian faith as the NT. Don't let verses quoted out of context tell you differently. The significance of the cross is missed if you don't have the context of the OT. Why was the cross necessary if the story began in Matthew? If God didn't mean for the OT scriptures to be known, then why would Jesus quote them repeatedly?

The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. I think the foundation of the faith would be seriously shaken if that were not true.

Well I did understand the passage. But it has nothing to do with reconciling a loving God against how he is represented in the Bible. It's simply an explanation of why he hasn't put an end to the world yet.

Not put an end to the world...put an end to suffering and death.

That is true Eubanks.

Rod's grasp on the history of Christianity rivals that of his grasp of US history!

Eubanks, seriously, I see the chances of context explaining away the issues in the scripture I posted being about as good as context explaining away the scripture Benjamin posted, (I.e. Not very) but I would like to hear it regardless.

I am not filtered by berkley eyes.

To fuel your rebuttals? I'll pass when it's obvious that an open minded discussion is not possible.

Based on the verses you posted, it tells us nothing of the context and history surrounding the Midianties and the Deuteronomy instructions.

It's the same 3 verses over and over that you are hung up on. I'm surprised you didn't post the Deut. 22:13-19 you always posts in the other threads.

See DeltaHoosier, your response is exactly what I'm talking about. You listed some passages from the Quran, yet when Wes lists passages from the Bible, you dismiss them because they are from the Old Testament. I don't understand that at all. Are you saying the HOLY Bible is holy with regards to the New Testament? Where are the Ten Commandments located? If they are used primarily for Judism, why are Christians so adament when someone sues to have them removed from a courthouse or other public building? Why preach about Genesis and then dismiss other passages? If certain things in the Bible are to be ignored, why does the same not hold true for the Quran?