Teak surfing/swimstep surfing

I just caught a CBS Special Assignment wherein they interviewed the family that lost their son because of carbon monoxide poisoning while teak surfing/swimstep surfing.

The reporter showed a family video of four kids surfing and even doing varying tricks as part of the fun. The family was totally unaware (or so they say) of the dangers of being around the swimstep, for any length of time, while the engine is running.

Apparently, there is a class action lawsuit against many boat manufacturers because these particular manufacturers do not have and never have posted any warning about invisible poisons around the swimstep.

The report showed two tests wherein they used an additive to the engine, which when the engine is running, exposes the normally invisible fumes. At idle (both in neutral and in gear), the fumes curled lovingly around the swimstep and actually rotated inward, recirculating the carbon monoxide laden fumes within the swimstep area.

Then, they showed the same boats (one was a Ski Nautique 2001 and one was a MasterCraft - both direct drives) accelerating to plane position and the amount of fumes that surrounded the swim step and trailed approximately 5' behind were tenfold of the idle fumes.

Whoever thought that the gases pass underneath you when the boat is accelerating, you need to rethink your position. The amount of carbon monoxide in the fumes was measured at more than double the level needed to kill a person - not to make them drowsy, not to give them a headache, but actually the amount that causes death.

And, as a side note, every major (what they referred to as a "sport boat") manufacturer is being sued in the Class Action suit, except one....Correct Craft. Why? Because they are the only manufacturer that posts a conspicuous warning of the fume hazard around the swimstep.

Thought some of you might be interested.


I see me being much more aware of the engine idling during rider changes and equipment preparation.

This would be the same as putting a placard on your cars dash telling you not to sleep in your car while it is running in a closed garage, well that me be a little extreem but my point is made.
Too many lawyers
Too many stupid people

They should put warning labels on cigarette packages too.
The point is, people will continue to do stupid things whether there are warning labels or not.

I agree with Alan. You hit the nail on the head "too many lawyers, too many stupid people" says it all too well. My sympathy goes out the parents, but I was informed that the child that died at Folsom, teak surfing, was 11 years old, and NOT WEARING A VEST!! I've never owned a boat haven't been around them much except for the last couple months and I know that all the fumes recirculate in a little cloud right behind the boat. Common sense.

my '02 malibu has a sticker

People are not dying from CO, they are dying from drowning. Case closed. Manufacturers are under heat, but the real problem is the fact that parents are letting their children in the water behind the boat without a vest. "My kid drowned, who can I blame...?" That's all this hype is.

I wakesurf sometimes withing about 5 ft. of my swim platform. Sounds like someone wakesurfing could be exposed to the CO2? What exactly is "Teak Surfing?"

teak surfing as I understand it is when you hold onto the swim platform while the boat is moving.

Doug it sounds like you don't think CO is the cause of these people drowning. If you do any research you'll see that it is absolutely the CO that is causing the problem - and it's not just people teak surfing. Several people have died at Lake Powell in the last few years from CO fumes while swimming around the back of a houseboat while the generator was running.

Teak surfing is much more dangerous than wakesurfing because you can't wear a vest while you're doing it (too much drag with a vest) and you are closer to the water where the fumes are concentrated. I would be interested in seeing a report that showed the CO level at head level while wakesurfing - maybe there is more danger there than anyone realizes.

There was a family in San Jose here that took a charcoal BBQ in their bedroom to keep them warm in the winter. They each died.

Time to get webber to add a sticker.

Im with Bill J after reading the other article, seems after many of the autopsies they found the poison level in the blood was the cause of death. They even tried to cpr on people that passed out, not drowned but just passed out, and they still died immediately of after getting to the hospital.
Would it be so hard to have the exhaust discharge into the water like an I/O does or would that effect performance??

One of my lines that i love to say when idiots, i.e most people I encounter on a daily basis, Government is Darwin's biggest enemy. I wish the US had less warning stickers, laws, and regulations, we could really make a dent in stupidity level of the gene pool.

Sometimes all you need is some common sense.

I must confess, I would not have known that CO could have been such a problem at the rear of a boat, but on the other hand, I would not have let my children hang off the back, only because of a naieve fear of the big spinning metal thing.

Is teak surfing something that the lake police or authority will enforce ?

Bill, I do not think CO is responsible for these drownings. In instances of houseboats... maybe. But certainly not while teak surfing. Are these people dying from CO poisening...? or are they sinking to the bottom...? It's the latter. They are drowning. Since there is no conclusive testing in regard to CO levels behind the boat, I'm going to keep wearing my vest. And, you can wear a vest while teak surfing... there is not too much drag, I've done it before.

My 01 Wakesetter has a sticker. All these sue-happy people make me sick. Yeah, it's a horrible tragedy that they lost their child. Everyone wants to blame everyone else for their stupidity. I would never let my child go behind a boat without a vest.

How does this play out for wake surfing (e.g. HL Landlock, etc.)? Is it risky due to the CO issue?

My understanding is that Cars hardly put out much CO these days because the catalyitic (sp?) converter converts most of the CO to CO2.

Is there anyway that boats could add catalytic converters?

i think the boat companies should attack the parents who are 100% responsible for the death. no child or adult should be allowed outside of a moving boat without a life jacket. if it wasn't co2 then it could have been a log, the prop could come off like what happened to funkster last summer, or many other accidents that could prove fatal. i hope the parents read this and realize that the blame is on them. bad parent "BAD PARENTS!!!!!!" this wouldn't have happened on any responsible boat owners boat and definately not on any boat i was on. i feel sorry for the kid who lost his life, he didn't know better. the parents i think should face the same punishment for letting him do it in the first place and also for not taking responsability for the accident and instead blaming the boat companies. true ignorant A-holes. like i say "when you are born dumb, its for a long time."

isn't it illegal to be anywhere other than a seat in a moving boat anyway? you can get a ticket for riding on the gunwhales or sunpad, so how is this any different? if a kid is sitting on the gunwhale, falls off and hits his head on the boat to get knocked unconscious (like the CO knocks them out) how is that any different.

Catalytic converters run hot and rob power. Probably could be done, and environmentalists will probably make it happen someday.

I've been holding my tongue on this matter, but it's gotten out of hand. What follows is a lot of food for thought, but it's worth considering.

While most of us know not to run the car in the garage with the door closed, many of us think that in the open air, we're safer. The truth is, carbon monoxide is a poison that enters the bloodstream easier than oxygen does. The human body will readily accept it if it's in the lungs. If you get too much carbon monoxide, even if you live for a little while, the poison may be too much for a little body to recover from. Most people don't know their science well enough to know this and put themselves in harms way because they're naive

It's true that too many lawyers are robbing our economy with frivolous lawsuits. However they also provide a watchdog service we really do need. Consumers don't know all the dangers associated with the products they buy. We often take safety for granted thinking the manufacturer wouldn't make something that can kill us. However, many times manufactures have been caught knowingly making unsafe products and not warning the consumer. That's when lawyers can help.

On the flip side, Manufacturers don't know what crazy new thing the consumer will think of while using the product(teak surfing, wake surfing, ect). In this case, the product was designed to pull riders at least 35 ft behind the boat, not 2-4 ft.

Did the manufacturer knowingly create a dangerous product? I don't think so, but that's for someone else to decide, which creates a dilemma. Sue the manufacturer, and the greedy lawyers go to the extreme, or don't sue, and no one does anything to warn others in the future.

It's funny; I've seen posts criticizing Correct Craft for too many warning lables. When I mentioned the recent deaths to my daughter, she pointed out the our boat (CC) has a warning label near the swim step. She also said it made her more conscious of the danger.

In addition, my owners manual advises against running the engine when people are near the swimstep, but I like many, didn't always heed it. Atfer all, we're only there for a couple minutes putting our boards on, or getting back in after a dip in the lake. This last weekend however, I turned the engine off every time. For many like me, there is a new awareness brought on by these deaths, broadcasts, lawsuits and even WakeWorld posts that will probably save lives. Hopefully that awareness continues to spread.

And finally; yes. Parents need to be extremely consistent on the use of lifevests. Maybe that would have kept the kid alive, but we'll never know for sure. Let's stop chastizing the "stupid parents." They're not here and have already paid a huge price for not knowing enough about the danger.

OK, so are you guys saying that Wakesurfing is unsafe?

Never done it, want to try it, but I'd check on the facts first.

CARB is pressing the catalytic converter issue (resisted by industry for a variety of reasons...previously resisted by the CG due to safety concerns, but I don't know the current position):

http://www.iboats.com/sites/trailerboats/site_page_1480/article_page_71.html

Shane
Very funny


Ray
Well said.

I do think all the warning labels are getting overwhelming but until this subject was posted a few weeks ago, I had never given it much thought.

I guess I go back to the idea of passing a boating license school/test before getting a license. Can you see how many various boat/water death posts could be eliminated? A definite reduction in reference material.

I don't know about a CO warning sticker, but my sanger has a sticker warning that the motor should be switched off at all times when on or around the swim step. I don't know how dumb you have to be, but take a look at the boat out of the water and figure how close your feet would be to the prop when starting or stoping while teaksurfing. I understand people will try anything for a thrill, but think before you let your 11 year old dangle behind the boat. C'mon now!

It's interesting that to be licensed to drive a car, a young person must have drivers training and, along with older people, pass a test. I consider driving a boat more difficult in many respects (no brakes, drunk *##holes in big*## gofast boats, mosquitos (pwcs), and a whole bunch of other people going in different directions in the same fishbowl. Why then, isn't it a requirement to at least attend a boater safety course? I know this would be an inconvenience at first glance, but some vital info could be relayed that normal people might not otherwise know. We can continue to learn the hard way, but the life of an 11 year old (or any of our children) is a hard lesson to live with.

Ray,

I have made pretty much the same argument a few months back on why it's required to take a test and everything in order to get a drivers license for a car or a motorcycle but NOT required to drive a boat. I made the statement that any "Joe Shmo" with money can pull up to a boat dealer, sign some paperwork and drive off never even backing one in the water before, but in order to get a car or motorcycle you have to show license and proof of insurance! I quickly was bashed for making a case that boaters should also either furnish a license to drive a boat or all boat owners should be required to attend a boaters safety course!!

I'm currently trying to take up a new career in Law Enforcement, my main goal it to work for Contra Costa County Sheriff on Marine Patrol duty. I've grown up on the Delta and I've seen some pretty stupid stuff out there. This weekend I can't tell you how many tickets I could have given should I be a Sheriff already. Gunwhale riding, passanger standing while driving (in a wakeboard boat), drinking and drive, and I know that the Delta is not directional but most of us pretty much treat it that way, but people driving on the wrong side of the river, towing too fast, TEAK SURFING, mosquitos not paying attention!

Okay I know that that is everyday occurances pretty much every where, but I can bet that only 10% of the people out there go to a boaters safety course. Do you know if you do it lowers your insurance rate? Yup Yup.

My roommates Malibu has a sticker right on the back of the boat that warns against TEAK SURFING, and my car it has a warining label about sitting idle for too long of a period in the open air. The point of the matter is as Ray said earlier, it's not the neglagance of the boat companies or the neglagance of the parents, it's the negalagance of the owner knowing his equipment! Evan made a good statement too, pull your boat out of the water and look how close YOU actually are to the prop! Most things in life are common sense, most things aren't. Bottom line is know your equipment and even as comical as it might sound read your warning labels and owners manual, inform your guests...California State Law requires childern under the age of 12 to wear a life vest....does every one out there know all the boating laws, again...probably not! It's the responsibilty of the boat owner to share the does and don't of his vessel, to me no one is held accountable but the owner of the boat!

(Message edited by jetgofish on June 09, 2003)

I live in Ontario, and I have to have a boating license. Guess you Americans are behind when it comes to safety.

Yes, and apparently we're even more behind you Canadians when it comes to taxation

I think it is pretty responsible that centurion came out with the new side swept exaust that can be switched side to side when surfing. It would be nice to see other companies do this too, unless it has been patended or something. I've never seen it in person but it seems like a good idea.

Jetgofish, sounds like you just want to bust people... driving on the wrong side of the water and passenger standing up? Here in Florida your not allowed to ride on gunnels, bow, or ski platform while in gear. Nothing about you cant stand up, how the heck would you fish if you were trolling if you cant stand up... some laws are arse-inine. I almost always drive standing up, it affords me a better view so sorry if i was made short. There are many things people do wrong that desrve tickets but im not so sure we need someone out there who is that ticket happy causing animosity between the po po and the boaters.
Now as far as licensing goes, i dont know what hole in the ground youve been in but there are quite a few states including Florida that have enacted boater education requirements. Just cause it dont say license doesnt mean anything.

Heres the link for those who just think a lifevest would have saved them: http://safetynet.smis.doi.gov/thelistbystate.htm
scroll down to the ski boat section fingerpointers

Bob, there is some scary stuff in that report - including a child that died while sleeping in the back of a ski boat. And the tests done during the autopsies show lethal CO levels caused the deaths, not drowning as some people would like to believe.

DOug - Actually it's both. Some people are drowning when they go unconcious, but there have been people who have died while either sitting on the platform or in the rear seat while the boat was either stationary or idling. It only takes a matter of seconds to succome to CO poisoning. It obviously takes longer to build up enough gas in your system to kill you, but it does/has happened.

In the last thread I added a link that showed statistics on accidents (fatal and non-fatal) and a discription of each. It was maybe 50/50 between drownings and actual death by co poisoning.

Hey Bob, I'm not ticket happy! The person driving is oaky to stand but when you have passenger standing and the boat is doing 30 and they are not wearing a life jacket or holding on to anything safety becomes and issue! Have you ever hit a sandbar, log or had the driver make a quick turn while you as a passenger were standing? Pretty much a saftey hazard if you as me! California has the same type of law, you can not gunnel ride or even ride on the sundeck for that matter if the boat is in gear! Each circumstance is different too. The people that I was refering to in my earlier post, the clearly were putting themselves at risk. Most of these people would receive a warning and not necessarily a ticket! It's cicumstansual!

Bob, how are you supposed to fish if you can't stand up? As mentioned before I think each situation is different and requires safety factors. So you were made short, so was I!

I contest your statement that I am "ticket happy" and "just want to bust people". No that is not the truth, I am fully aware that you don't know the situations which I saw and certainly do not know the situation that I was in! Many of the people that I "thought" should have been ticketed were ticketed. It was in full agreement to every one on board my boat that these people SHOULD have been ticketed.


(Message edited by jetgofish on June 10, 2003)

jetgofish, sounds like you have the right attitude for a lake cop.

Matt, thanks! I think the number one factor that every one should constantly be aware of is Safety!