4th Alternator in 2.5 seasons. Looking for input

So I toasted yet another Alt. Something tells me its just not bad luck anymore. I am not shredding belts or even showing a mark on a belt. The original/ upgraded one that the prior owner had boosted up was 90 amps. I went through 2 rebuilds from 2 dif places. One lasted 2mos. The other 4 and then I decided to just go new. Well now the new one has toasted as well. The first one locked up and the cooling fan blew apart. All of them seem to just melt/fry. Smell like burning metal.

The new one I bought was a remy/delco. 70amp. Dealer said it was the match to the original. Thought is was little under what I needed but they said should be fine.

I have dual battery (both season old interstates tested fine). and a small system with 2 amps(Syn 4 and Syn 2). Can't believe that is frying it as I barely run them hard at all. Any ideas on where to start or if it is just string of bad luck. ______________

I would think a 90 to 120 amp alternator would fit the bill.70 amps seems way too small for 2 amps and all your accessories too.

If your burrning up alternators you have a few diffrent problems.
You can install a big honking alternator and still Burn it down,
IMO you need a digital regulator in-line with a HD alternator that keeps track of your state of charge and battery level and will not Overwork your alternator.
4 Alternators at around 100+ each = $400 and all the Down time and running back and forth to the Alt shop and you still have nothing. Bummer.

If you have a few hunderd to throw at the project I can suguest Balmar alternators and digital regulators.
http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/8294-1...lternator.html
Look for a 100 Amp Kit. Thats Alternator and Regulator and all the wire harness to make it happen.
I have installed about 6 of these systems and have not had a single problem with any of them.

They are burning up from abuse. You may not know you are abusing them but you are making the alternator work at too high of an output for too long. How are your batteries wired? What is your typical stereo, charging day like? Do you have a AC charger of some sort?

My batts are both identical deepcycles I think group 24. Possibly 27. Whicheveris the smaller. My boat runs while my stereo is going 95% of the time. I sit with stereo going maybe 2 times a month. When we sit it maybe runs for hr tops. However after that hour of sitting and by no means rocking out we ride for at least two hrs. I never turn boat off when changing riders. I have permit for my two batts that 95% of time stays in dual mode.

I had one time where I drained the stereo batts to 11.4 volts. However it was hooked on charger right after that and reads 12.4v at feast month later. When both banks are on I read 12.6-12.8v and 14.2 while running.


The previos alts were 90 and when they rebuilt it they bumped it to 100amp

Sounds like your alternator demands are really not excessive.

I think what Grant has recommended is a pretty decent idea. You must be having a draw somewhere, or a short in the wire that is creating way too much demand. It would be interesting to have the regulator inline just to see how hard the alternator is really working. Carefully inspect all of your wiring and see if there is some unknown draw.
I would be curious to just turn the key to the on position without the engine running and check to see how many amps are being pulled from your batteries just to run the ECM.

I wouldn't really trust your voltage gauge on the dash. What I would be interested in is checking your voltage just before you start your boat after it has been sitting all night. Check it with a digital voltmeter. If you are starting anything below 12.6 you are already starting in the hole. If you crank your stereo most of the time that you are out you might not be giving the alternator enough time to catch up. This could be even worse if you fill your ballast sacks up before running the boat. Just keep in mind that at idle your alternator is probably putting out 30-40 amps.

It is going to be a bit of an invesment but I would consider redesigning your battery setup. I would consider going to a single starting battery and 2 stereo batteries(or one big one like a group 31). I would also add something like the Sure Power seperator/combinor or the cole hersee version of it. I would wire that in with your battery switch and also add a 10 to 20 amp dual bank charger(Assuming you can plug it in on a regular basis). This setup will leave you with the most flexability while giving charging priority to your starting battery, it will protect your alternator from working all the time to try and keep up with your stereo. It will also allow you to top the batteries off every night to keep them in the best possible shape. The downfall is at some point during the day you may not have enough alternator to charge the stereo bank enough to keep your stereo going. In my opinion your better off having the stereo shut off then burn up an alternator.

Unfortunately I don't have a power source at my dock.

What I have found so far is that my alt is running off single wire vs the original setup. The puple lead and the black lead are taped off.

The other thing I will mention is veryvery rarely do I ever run both amps at the same time. It's usually just the Syn 2 pushing the towers.

Somthing don't sound right?

Only 1 reason your Alternator would melt down. Your alternator is Overworking itself. If your alternator THINKS it needs to re charge dead batterys it will throw out a charge until your Voltage regulator say's stop!
So either
#1 your VR is messed up and is tricking your alternator into overdrive,
#2 your have dead battery's and they wont take a charge
#3 you don't have enough battery to support your Draw and your stereo system is causing your alternator to surge in charge.

#4 Or You are trying to power your house with the output of your alternator.

#1. Were would the be be? I have my dash and my distribution block w showing around same. I am getting 12.8v w nothing running and the Perko in dual. When charging I am right at 14.2-14.4v.

#2 my batts are same age as the alt. I replaced them when I got the new alt as a precaution. They are Interstate 24 series cranking w 1000mca and 135 reserve. The batts have never been ran dead ever

#3 maybe I am underestimating my system. It's average at best with 2 pro 80' s and like I said I don't hammer it. Mostly just run one amp at time and fig it came with one amp stock on 55 amp alt. Sure it was small clarion 4 channel, but my amps ain't that much bigger in my eyes. Again maybe I am Inderestimating it. One other thing may be the gauge of wire from power lead. What is good gauge of wire to allow the best flow.

4). Maybe the house has less draw. Hahahaha

Seriously tho.........I hate electricalstuff. Never an easy answer. I just have no idea where to begin. Sure I could send it back to ny dealer.......pay $$$ and may be able to get it fixed. However I brought it to them once. Grabbed new batts a new alt and had them wire everything and check it out and I am still out an alt. So fig now is a good time to try and learn about and try and solve the issue with some help.

Get rid of the Perko, install an onboard maintainer, run the batts in parallel, put a 70 amp stock type alt that uses all 3 wires and just carry a portable batt jumper. This is how my system is set up and I have 3 amps totaling about 1100 watts RMS and a 6 light bar totaling 330 watts with stock 70 amp alt and I run my system almost identical to how you do and I am going on 6 years old, everything original including Interstate batts, and I have never used the jumper box myself, (many others have). Then if you toast that alt I would start looking at any aftermarket wiring that has been done like stereo or other accessories. More often than not these types of issues trace back to something someone has added after the factory. Edit : Perkos' are junk and cause more problems that they solve. If you must have a switch, buy a high end unit that is built to last unlike Perkos'.

Are you sure the load is the issue here? I am looking at your profile and notice you have an original xstar? do you have the LTR engine or the predator? I have an 01 x30 with the LTR and went through numerous alts before realizing the bracket was warped/torqued causing them to wear out at an abnormally quick rate... MC had a recall for the alt. brackets back in the early 2000s... may be worth looking into?

Originally Posted by crowem87

Are you sure the load is the issue here? I am looking at your profile and notice you have an original xstar? do you have the LTR engine or the predator? I have an 01 x30 with the LTR and went through numerous alts before realizing the bracket was warped/torqued causing them to wear out at an abnormally quick rate... MC had a recall for the alt. brackets back in the early 2000s... may be worth looking into?

That is some good info. It seems that they would melt from heat though because of a misalignment. That should cause the bearings to go which would cause all types of problems for the alternator.

Ya, I am not really sure exactly of the symptoms of the issue besides that my alternator would quit on me constantly. Sometimes a month, sometimes 6mo. It would read 14V on the gauge, and if I got lazy and stopped paying attention all of a sudden it would drop once it quit in a matter of an hour and a half (boat would run until it drained the battery to around 9V). BTW I just read the OP again.... The one thing I do remember was the cooling fan would sometimes break up and leave shards all over the place back there..... My belt never had any signs of abnormal wear, it would just go out all of a sudden. This bracket/torqued issue was hardly noticeable by the naked eye.

If I recall the alternators did not do the same thing every time, sometimes the fan would be torn up, sometimes not. Sometimes you could take the belt off and wiggle the pulley all around (bearings), others the bearing seemed fine. I am embarrassed to admit that I probably changed out almost 10 before finding the solution. Finally a new mechanic at the dealer tracked it down. Since then It has been 3 years and not alternator issues besides the time I fried one up this year because my raw water pumps bearings went out and got water in the bilge.... alt got wet and eventually went. Sorry for the rant!

I remeber the recall. I thought for sure if it wasn't done I would be shredding belts or seeing some wear due to misalignment.


I will have to look into that for sure as I know it was huge recall.

Originally Posted by crowem87

Are you sure the load is the issue here? I am looking at your profile and notice you have an original xstar? do you have the LTR engine or the predator? I have an 01 x30 with the LTR and went through numerous alts before realizing the bracket was warped/torqued causing them to wear out at an abnormally quick rate... MC had a recall for the alt. brackets back in the early 2000s... may be worth looking into?

That is why I was suggesting he get the load sensor on the alternator. I would be willing to bet his alternators are not working hard with his stereo. If he blows another alt while knowing that he almost never draws a large number of amps...then he at least has narrowed it down some.

Good luck Xstarrider. I can't imagine the frustration.

Ahh got ya, good idea! Wish I had thought about it back when I had problems... Thats what is horrible about electrical problems.... it can be anything!

First, I am no expert here. But, I have a question, if he has his Perko in dual, wouldn't the alternator be trying to charge both batteries at the same time thus causing too big of a draw?

Originally Posted by SangerTom

First, I am no expert here. But, I have a question, if he has his Perko in dual, wouldn't the alternator be trying to charge both batteries at the same time thus causing too big of a draw?

Well, in my opinion there is no such a thing as too big of a battery, at least not from a charging standpoint. There can be too large of loads and improper use and misunderstanding of how the system works but having a huge battery isn't by itself goign to cause anymore problems. Now if you deplete the battery enough or have a larger draw then the alternator can handle then the alternator is going to work 100% all the time which equals burned up alternators.

I also completely 100% wouldn't do what sparky jay recommended. This would be the ablsolute quickest way to damage your batteries, alternator, starter and any other electrical equipment in the boat. I don't think I have ever heard of someone say that perkos are junk. They are ridiculously simple mechanical switches. He also mentioned he doesn't have a way to plug in at night so a battery maintainer/charger is not an option. If the cause of burning the alternators up truely is load caused then he has a couple of options. I mentioned those options in a previous post but no matter what option chosen the proper understanding and use of them have to be applied or it is all for not.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Absolute quickest way huh? So Bill why then are all my components original with almost 350 hrs and 6 yrs without a SINGLE issue? Including original batteries? Perkos' are cheap low end garbage that dealers like to sell you. Cant wait to hear your answer. Not even so much as a blown fuse on my boat and all the work was done by me when the boat was brand new.

Originally Posted by wake_upppp

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Absolute quickest way huh? So Bill why then are all my components original with almost 350 hrs and 6 yrs without a SINGLE issue? Including original batteries? Perkos' are cheap low end garbage that dealers like to sell you. Cant wait to hear your answer. Not even so much as a blown fuse on my boat and all the work was done by me when the boat was brand new.

I am sorry but to give someone your advice is bad. 95% of the people on this board would have terrible battery, alternator and other electronics life if they followed your advice. It might work for your boat somehow. All it means is that your one, two or all of the following. Lucky, your amp draw is less then your alternator output or you put your batteries on a maintainer to keep them topped off everynight. Just because it happens to work for you doesn't mean it is good advice or will work for others.

I am sorry but perko, cole hersee, blue seas all make similar selector switches and they all work fine. They serve a very real purpose and I doubt dealers have sales meetings on pushing perko switches on people. If you want to be able to use your dual battery system as dual battery banks you need something to disconnect them. With the newer "make before break" switches they really are a great way to be able to isolate a "stereo" bank and keep you starting battery fully charged ready to start your boat. It also gives you the ability to go between the "both" and "battery 1(starting battery)" so you don't overwork your alternator and shorten it's life.

Look my families business which I have worked at for 7 years or so is a warehouse distributor specializing in rotating electrical. It's not like I am just making stuff up here.

The number one thing in all this is for the OP to understand how his charging system is setup so that he can use it correctly. That and find out exactly what is causing the problem. If it is a bracket being misaligned it doesn't matter what he does with his batteries. He is going to desrtroy alternators. No one wants to cut their day on the water short because the alternator, starter or some other electrical component doesn't work because of abuse.

Nothing at all wrong with my advice. Set up many this way with no issues. Simple is better. I have seen Perkos' fail. Sometimes a switch is needed. Buy a high end, well built one or you will risk problems as it ages. 35yrs in the biz here and a ASE Master Mechanic.

OK so all hooked up again...........Got my hands on a voltmeter. Looking for some input on the target areas to hit and check, I also have a digital voltage readout on my distribution block attached to battery number 2 which all the stereo stuff is not sure how accurate that is.



So far today just firing up the boat NOT hitting it with the volt meter......just my distribution block digital readout.
Alternator kicks on at bout 1600-1700 rpms. When it does I am at 15.0 volts when I am above idle at 20mph.
Boat off my batteries are showing 12.7. ............again just off the dist block readout.

So let the fun begin.

And were not talking about 95% of the people on here just the OP. His system is small and doesent require all the extra pieces a bigger system would.

Voltmeter is good but what you should be playing with is an inductive amp meter. Then you can find out what is putting the extra load on the charging system since that is the real question here. What is causing your alt to work overtime and burn up right?

15.0 Volts. I think that is a problem. I always thought an alternator is supposed to top out at 14. 4V.

I thought the 15 was high as well. Figured maybe cuz it was brand new.


As far as the volt meter its actually multi meter. While I know it won't do my amperage without frying I will also try and get my hands on amp meter then.

I would verify the dist block readout with the hand held voltmeter as well. Inductive amp meter is nice since you can take readings with everything hooked up and runnung.

swatguy, are you saying the alternator doesn't turn on until your engine hits 1600-1700 rpms? If that is engine RPM it is not a good sign. Most alternators shoudl be turning on at about 700-1000 engine RPM. Does the alternator stay on or does it turn back off when you drop back to an idle? Does your new 70 amp alternator look like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-O...-/140281796278

That is a Delco 7si that is on most of the mid 2000 indmar and other engines. It is rated at 70 amps but our shop guy has had it put out up to 90 or 95 in cool conditions. That alternator definately should be charging at 14.2-14.4v. It has a 2 wire plug. One of the wires should be hooked to an ignintion source or pressure switch or some sort of other positive circuit that turns on when the boat is running. If this was hooked up I am not sure why it wouldn't turn on until 1600 rpm. The other wire is for external battery sense. This tells the regulator what the votage is so it can increase or decrease output voltage at the alternator. We usually just throw a ring terminal on this wire and connect it to the battery positive output terminal. Really this wire is designed to be hooked up directly to the battery so that if there is any voltage drop between the alternator and battery it can adjust.

With the voltmeter check the voltage at the back of the alternator and then at the batteries. The difference shouldn't be mroe then a 1/10th or so. Any more and you have voltage drop for whatever reason. It could be bad cables, incorrect sized cables, bad connections, etc.. A good idea would be to undo all the connections along the line and use a wire brush to clean them up. Another concern would be the size cables/wires from the alternator. In wakeboarding boats they put plenty big cables from the starter to the batteries but they seem to undersize the wire from the alternator, to the main circuit breaker, to the starter solenoid switch to the starter. If that is too small it can cause problems. This doesn't exactly sound like what is wrong with yours though.

Like sparky suggested an ampmeter would be nice to see what your draw is with just the boat running and then when you turn up your stereo and other accessories. IT could give you an idea of what your draw is.

Also, back in 99- early 2000s these boats only had a 55A alternator stock. so really the 70 or 90 or whatever that came on it was most likely already upgraded....

honestly, i think your best bet is to get on the mastercraft teamtalk forum and talk to a guy with the name JimN.... he was/is a mastercraft tech and is probably the most knowledgeable person on these boats. He has walked me through a few issues I have had with my boat recently.

Matt I have post over there as well and jimn has sec chimed in.

Update

o made some progress on the situation. Took some calls to several dealerships as well as Indmar and skidim.

While the kit from ski dim says the harness is not needed it is needed so not sure on why their site says that. A big thanks to John Todd over at Indmar for tracking down a wiring diagram for me. So here is whew I am at.

My original alts all had the one orange (power) wire attached with nothing else. The alt is grounded through the block. However u do need the harness coming out of the back of the alt. A thanks to the tech up at Watersports Marine for hooking me up with the Napa part number of TSC200 for the harness. Now here is where it got confusing. While the alt is single wire capable for this upgrade you need to crimp both outputs of the harness to the purple ignition/excite wire for some reason. While I don't know exactly why this is, this is what Indmar calls for in the instructions for the 70 amp upgrade.

I am not sure if the original owner or the dealer did the upgrade. When they did the did upgrade the gauge of the power lead to the breaker and to the starter. I k ow this because that wire while mix looked new without grime or engine compartment residue like the others. However they forgot to wire up the harness. Also this wire was the correct gauge recommended. Ran the boat for 2 hrs last nite. My alt kicks in immediately at the start now rather than having to rev it. It's showing 14.5 volts at the alt and at the batts when running. My batts are both showung 12.7 volts rest.

Hopefully this should cure the issues. I can't thank everyone enough for the heads up and the input. Electrical stuff is always something I just don't really get or know to much about. Learned a ton qbout it now tho. If anyone thinks I an missing anything let me know

Originally Posted by xstarrider

Matt I have post over there as well and jimn has sec chimed in.

Update

o made some progress on the situation. Took some calls to several dealerships as well as Indmar and skidim.

While the kit from ski dim says the harness is not needed it is needed so not sure on why their site says that. A big thanks to John Todd over at Indmar for tracking down a wiring diagram for me. So here is whew I am at.

My original alts all had the one orange (power) wire attached with nothing else. The alt is grounded through the block. However u do need the harness coming out of the back of the alt. A thanks to the tech up at Watersports Marine for hooking me up with the Napa part number of TSC200 for the harness. Now here is where it got confusing. While the alt is single wire capable for this upgrade you need to crimp both outputs of the harness to the purple ignition/excite wire for some reason. While I don't know exactly why this is, this is what Indmar calls for in the instructions for the 70 amp upgrade.

I am not sure if the original owner or the dealer did the upgrade. When they did the did upgrade the gauge of the power lead to the breaker and to the starter. I k ow this because that wire while mix looked new without grime or engine compartment residue like the others. However they forgot to wire up the harness. Also this wire was the correct gauge recommended. Ran the boat for 2 hrs last nite. My alt kicks in immediately at the start now rather than having to rev it. It's showing 14.5 volts at the alt and at the batts when running. My batts are both showung 12.7 volts rest.

Hopefully this should cure the issues. I can't thank everyone enough for the heads up and the input. Electrical stuff is always something I just don't really get or know to much about. Learned a ton qbout it now tho. If anyone thinks I an missing anything let me know

You are describing exactly what I said in my last most. You have a delco 7si which is not a 1 wire hookup alternator. You are hooking both those small wires out of the harness to a 12v source. Like I said, one of the wires(if you look at the plug on the alternator) is labelled "I" which is for ignition. This is the wire that tells the alternator to turn on. Basically you want it to turn on only when your boat is running. If you don't hook it up to anything your alternator is not going to turn on or not until a high rpm like you were saying. If you hook it up to something that is powered all the time it is going to drain your battery when it is just sitting. Now the other wire is labeled "S" for sense. This wire can be hooked up to a bunch of different places. As long as it is hooked up to something that is receiving the voltage/output from the alternator it should function correctly although it was originally designed to be hooked up dirrectly to the batteries to tell the alternator to pick up the voltage if there is a voltage drop between the alternator and the batteries.

Either way it sounds like it is hookep up correctly. To see if your alternator is sufficient for your setup go out for a day and run the boat just like you normall would. Then test the voltage with a digital voltmeter at the batteries the next day. You do it the next day because you want to remove the surface charge to get a correct reading. If the next day your batteries still show 12.6-12.7 you are looking good. If they test less then that then your batteries are either dying or your alternator is not capable of keeping up with the amp draw. If this happens your only option really is to modify how you use the boat. You will need to figure out a way to tune your system so it is more effecient, run the boat more with the stereo turned off or way down so the alternator can really charge the batteries or just listen to the stereo less. Otehr things that may help are newer high silver content or AGM batteries. They charge up quicker(I have no idea how much quicker) then standard lead acid batteries and may work better in you application. If your charging system is sufficient and workign fine and you blow another alternator I would stronger suggest looking at that bracket to see if it is aligned. To check it you may be able to find a Dayco(belt company) supplier or shop and see if they have Dayco's lazer belt alignment tester to see if your pulleys are inline.

Sounds like you have a good start and are starting to understand your system a little better. Good Luck

Lots of good info here as usual.

Bill,

Yup 7si. And exactly what you pointed out. It was verified finally by the Indmar manual. I can't for the life of me see how they could miss that. I also can't see why on skidim they say the harness isn't needed when it obviously is. I also had 2 mc service techs tell me it wasn't needed. You think I should wire the sense to the positive battery wire at the starter or just leave it with ignition?

Originally Posted by xstarrider

Bill,

Yup 7si. And exactly what you pointed out. It was verified finally by the Indmar manual. I can't for the life of me see how they could miss that. I also can't see why on skidim they say the harness isn't needed when it obviously is. I also had 2 mc service techs tell me it wasn't needed. You think I should wire the sense to the positive battery wire at the starter or just leave it with ignition?

We usually just wire it directly to the positive stud on the of back of the alternator but as long as your batteries(make sure and test there) are getting 41.2-14.4v I think you are good to go. Since you don't have an onboard/at home charger it is more important that your alternator is working correctly.

And if wiring my boat batteries in parallel was so destructive as you claim Brett, why are millions of diesel trucks including my own from the factory wired this way? Dual batteries wired in parallel with NO switch? Just dont want people to read this thread and think there is anything wrong with wiring batteries this way because there isn't.

Originally Posted by wake_upppp

And if wiring my boat batteries in parallel was so destructive as you claim Brett, why are millions of diesel trucks including my own from the factory wired this way? Dual batteries wired in parallel with NO switch? Just dont want people to read this thread and think there is anything wrong with wiring batteries this way because there isn't.

Because you are using it completely different. You don't have a "stereo/house" bank or require one in a truck. We sell tons of batteries to truck drivers that have 4 group 31's all in parallel. It isn't apples to apples. You obviously fail to realize the point of a 2 bank battery system. Will a 2 battery/single bank battery system work for some? Yes. Is it what I would recommend, no. I guess you can do it your ghetto way and keep a jump box on your boat or you can have a second battery bank and always have a fully charged backup battery or wire the banks so there is a dedicated stereo bank and then a bank used just for the main wiring harness that all you have to do is flip a switch and it acts like a jump box.

Or I could run a cheap perko and have it fail while under way and have the whole ignition sytem shut down in the middle of the delta like my friends boat just did. Not every stereo system needs the extra components. I actually gave you credit for being a tech but you obviously dont do this type of work for a living. Sounds like you sell parts?

Originally Posted by wake_upppp

Or I could run a cheap perko and have it fail while under way and have the whole ignition sytem shut down in the middle of the delta like my friends boat just did. Not every stereo system needs the extra components. I actually gave you credit for being a tech but you obviously dont do this type of work for a living. Sounds like you sell parts?

Sparky, I gave him my way to do his system up which has many benefits over your system. The only benefit of your system is that it is simple. There still is no reason to do it your way when you could just have one big(group 31) battery and have the same specs as yoru 2 batteries. Either way he goes understanding how it works and the limitations of the system to make it reliable. There are also a lot of otehr "switches" like a cole hersee, stinger, blue seas, etc.. that basically work the same as a Perko switch. You don't have to spend more then $50 to get a good one.

Either way I am done arguing with you. My opinion is your way is a hack way to do it.

Of coarse your done because you have nothing to back up your comment about how I am going to ruin all my electronics and components when in fact nothing will be ruined. My point was in the real world a cheap switch can do more harm than good and is not needed with a small system such as the one the OP has. This is a fact. Your comment about ruining parts is straight BS in my case and the OP's. Have a nice day.