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Old     (SomeYeahoo)      Join Date: Dec 2014       12-19-2014, 11:44 PM Reply   
As per this forum's advice to look around at some of the Axis competitors prior to purchasing one, I went by the Moomba/Supra dealership. I was curious as to what people think of their surf systems.

The Moomba surf system requires you to get wet on the platform to enable it. Not all that different from the Axis manual wedge, I suppose, but it doesn't automatically come out at 7 mph and go back in at 12 mph (or whatever it is) like the Axis. Simple and straightforward I suppose, but I don't see anything about it that is superior to Axis.

The Supra surf system seems a little like Mastercrafts, but it seems to be pushing the boat up out of the water, when I thought the whole point of the wedge was to pull the boat deeper into the water.

What do you guys think of these surf systems? Is one clearly superior to the others or are they all fine?
Old     (Gary)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-20-2014, 6:52 AM Reply   
Moomba is getting a surf system similar to that of supra swell that will be automatic. I haven't ridden swell system but I heard it takes more tweaking but it is more customizable so food for thought.
Old     (SCfan)      Join Date: Mar 2014       12-20-2014, 7:10 AM Reply   
Ok, there is a lot to talk about here. First let me tell you that I am a Supra/Moomba dealer and have drank every last drop of the Kool-Aid. But also as a dealer I am somewhat educated and not just some guy who rode behind my buddy's boat and thought it was great. I will probably start a $hit storm with this, so I will try to keep it to facts (its hard I am passionate). So much of this industry is based on opinion, really who has the best wake? What is best can be different to different people. They are all good boats, will last a lifetime and will provide tons of fun. So on with the facts!

First before we get into the surf systems a few things not really talked much about that I feel are important. Supra and Moomba foam fill the void area between the hull and deck. This helps add strength and reduce noise. As an added benefit, If you are heavily loaded and take a huge roller over the bow your boat will not go to the bottom. I have heard that several Axis have found their way to the bottom this way. I believe there is even a member on here it happened to. The problem is accentuated by the wedge. It adds approximately 1000 lbs. of down force to the rear while running. When you come to a stop it goes a way. But the ballast in the bow is still there. Not hard to see how this could be a problem. Of course it is rare that this happens, and an experienced driver should never have a problem. After all we would never let our inexperienced wives/girlfriends/friends drive our new expensive toy so we can ride behind would we? Right? The other thing I like to brag on is CSI. That's customer service index. It is a survey given to all boat buyers right after purchase and about 6 months later. Moomba and Supra have just won their 9th consecutive CSI award each. Malibu has won several, here and there over the years. Axis has never won one on its own. They only talk about how the parent company has won awards. To me that speaks volumes. There are also many construction differences that I will not boar you with. I have never heard of a structural failure of an Axis so I just wont go there, but they are "different" than how many other boats and even Malibu does things, especially on some models.

Surf Systems! Malibu was the first. I will give them that, and it rocketed them up in sales because of it. The Surfgate system is simple and effective. But like most things that are the first there are improvements that can be had. The biggest flaw with Surfgate is the lack of adjustability. It does make a nice wake and will be just fine for most people as is, but to be able to tweak it to your liking would be great, right? Supra's Swell system is totally adjustable and also is capable of making two distinctly different types of waves. It does not just lift the opposite side of the boat, the blade is shaped in such a way that is shifts the back of the boat over much the same way Surfgate does. It is called delayed convergence and is the principal behind all surf systems. It will, however help keep the nose down so you can actually see to drive. Nice benefit ha? The Moomba Flow device is designed to be relatively cheep, easy and robust. Yes you have to get your hand wet to deploy it, like you do with the wedge on an Axis, but you were just about to jump in to surf right? What is the big deal with that? Also Flow has 3 settings so there is some adjustability. And if that is not enough for you there is now the AutoFlow system available on Moomba. It is basically a simplified Swell system from the Supra. Totally adjustable and very simple to operate.

Wedge vs. Wake Plate. This is not something you asked about but I feel there is a lot of people out there that are miss informed and uneducated about the differences. I get people all the time who seem to think the wake plate is somehow a copy of the wedge. Not even close. The wedge is designed to pull the boat down simulating ballast, it is a great idea and works well for what it is supposed to do. But no one copied it, why? Everyone copied the surf system, because it was such a great idea. Why has no one copied the wedge? When a boat gets on plane it needs to be pushed over, stern drives and outboards can change the angle of the propeller to help this along (trim). Most bigger boats have trim tabs to help with this. What does a wedge equipped boat have? Hook... Hook is a slight curvature at the back of the boats hull that helps push the nose down. Great, problem solved... sort of. There is no adjustability there (seeing a pattern?) It is what it is, and over the years Malibu has worked out a pretty good compromise in planning and cruising performance, also the lack for a need of 1000lbs. actual ballast in the rear of the boat helps. But you can not escape the fact that the faster you go the more it pushes the nose down, reducing fuel economy. The wake plate simply allows you to plane more quickly, with less power and cruse more efficiently. Additionally you can make significant changes in wake shape instantly with minor adjustments of the plate. It does nothing to actually enhance the wake, that is not its function. It is a trim tab, and functions exactly as such. It was first on a Supra, and has been copied by Tige, Mastercraft, Nautique, and most others. Why? because it is the best solution for the problem, much like a surf system.

Sorry to be so long winded, the truth is you need to test drive the boats. I could not imagine spending 60-70k or more and not trying it first. Boat dealers aren't like Wal Mart, you cant just take it back if you don't like it. Go drive some boats, pick the one that works best for you. They are all good, and the one that is "the best" for you may not be "the best" in someone else's eyes. Buy what is right for you, but give a Moomba a chance, you many be surprised.
Old     (tn_rider)      Join Date: Dec 2009       12-20-2014, 9:20 AM Reply   
You weren't kidding about the koolaid and it for sure showed in your post lol
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       12-20-2014, 10:16 AM Reply   
I see it more as passion.
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       12-20-2014, 12:07 PM Reply   
Good grief. When I'm back in front of a keyboard on Monday I'll jump in here. One of the few things I agree with here is that you should definitely demo a bunch of boats.

I mean, employing a scare tactic to dissuade a prospective customer from buying an axis because like one person who ever owned one managed to sink it is just busch league. That's like me saying, oh you should never buy a Moomba because their surf tab thing does not auto retract and I'm pretty sure that some guy forgot and may have been driving really fast and might have clipped a log and totally tore the transom off his boat and I think it sank. You know, axis designed it's surf system to auto retract. So, no axis boats would have sunk like that. I mean, I'm just saying. Think of the kids man! Think of that sweet innocent face sinking below the waves because your surf system doesn't auto retract! OH MY GOD.

Last edited by chattwake; 12-20-2014 at 12:14 PM.
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       12-20-2014, 12:09 PM Reply   
Oh and don't you think that, just maybe, no one copied the wedge because there's a patent out there? And you tout the fact that the wake plate helps a boat plane, but isn't that exactly what power wedge 2 does? If you're going to hate on another brands tech, at least try to get your facts straight.

Last edited by chattwake; 12-20-2014 at 12:12 PM.
Old     (hp_inc)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-20-2014, 12:38 PM Reply   
Who brought the popcorn? I guess its going to be another one of those threads. ;-)
Old     (fic)      Join Date: May 2008       12-20-2014, 1:31 PM Reply   
Im curious which is the first model and year of a supra with a trim plate ?
Old     (Gary)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-20-2014, 1:46 PM Reply   
Wasn't the wedge invented in 98 and the didn't get a patent until 2007 and the patent is on a power wedge so boat companies could have copied them if they wanted to if I am not mistaken on patent laws which I am not very versed in.
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       12-20-2014, 2:24 PM Reply   
Lol axis boats are built exactly the same way as malibu. Same plant same process and the stringers ARE injected with foam during the process.

This place is just filled with constant misinformation.

OP, do your own research. Don't believe anything you read on the Internet.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-20-2014, 2:37 PM Reply   
Trying to remember the last time that a patent stopped another boat company from copying a good idea.........

ALL of the other company's take a pretty firm stand on not wanting anything like the wedge on their boats, and it is not a pesky little patent that keeps them from doing it...... Not saying it was a bad idea, but there are plenty of reasons to avoid using a wedge, and non of the other boat companies needed anything like it, to remain competitive with Malibu.

PW2 has certainly addressed most of the older wedge drawbacks. It's ability to go over center to aid in acceleration, is a big improvement. Much better actuators as well.
Old     (SCfan)      Join Date: Mar 2014       12-20-2014, 6:59 PM Reply   
Ok, I knew this would be coming.
Chat, I would imagine it would be pretty hard to hit that little tab just right to where it would not break off but instead stay intacked and take a whole section of transom it is through bolted to with it. And even if it did the boat would still float as it is foam filled. The children will be safe! There have also been a few cases of sunken Axis, not just yours. Proven actual events, when have you seen the transom ripped off a Moomba? Oh yeah, that must be the constant misinformation this place is famous for. And to be fair it's not just Axis boats that sink. I seem to remember a great pic of a G23, or G25 sunk in it's slip. But the OP was specifically talking about Axis so that's where I went. And yes the power wedge 2 does help lift the boat, finally, what nearly 30 years later, but we are talking about an Axis here. So that really does not help the OP does it? And like others have said about your patent idea, like the patent on Surf Gate, if it's the right thing they will do it anyway.

Hp-inc, I have popcorn, come on over

Boardjnky4. Yes they are made in the same plant, but some Axis models have been put together by bonding instead of the industry standard shoe box fit. Which is how all Malibu's are built. And my post did not just say different then Malibu, it said different then most, even Malibu. Bonded hull and deck is different than any other manufacturer I know about. Further they do not through bolt much of anything. The bolts that hold the tracking fins on are simply threaded into the fiberglass. I have seen so many of these boats come through my shop missing fins, sometimes the owner didn't even know they were gone. As for the foam fill, I said nothing about the very small stringer area, I said the void between the floor and the hull which most definitely does not have foam in an Axis or Malibu.

Fic, I believe, but could be wrong that the first hydronic adjustable wake plate was in 88? They were adjustable by a turnbuckle assembly prior to that.

OP, just drive the boats, you will find the right thing for you, whatever brand it should be. Just trying to educate here as best as I can. Not to say I know everything, I don't. And there are certainly things I could be wrong about. But I truly don't believe anything I have said is anything other than verify able actual fact. That is if you don't work like the government and omit words and twist things to make it something it's not then blame me telling lies.
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       12-21-2014, 5:05 AM Reply   
1 - I have never sunk a boat. Not sure where you got that from. I've also run a crazy amount of bow weight in an a20, a22 and a24 with the wedge, and never even came close to chili dipping the nose. Good lord man. It's not that hard to go back and figure out who that guy was that sunk his a22. Coincidentally, wasn't he friends with someone who bought a "purportedly" defective supra product? See, I say "purportedly" because I don't know for a fact what happened, so I'm not going to extrapolate from what a single owner said when he came on here and put sc (and their customer service on blast) that the entire supra line is unsafe or of poor quality. I digress...

2 - I'm not here to educate you on patent law, but there are many companies out there who obtain a patent and decide to license it, which allows competitors in the industry to utilize the protected technology for a fee (cc and the four point tower is an example for you to consider). Neither you nor I know whether other companies have tried to license a wedge type design from Malibu. However, you speak as if you've talked to every single manufacturer in the industry and obtained a definitive answer. In reality, you're just speculating to support your dealer-speak.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-21-2014, 5:36 AM Reply   
Have any of you seen that show called "my strange addiction" it's a show that shows these freaks that are addicted to strange stuff and have strange habits. The one show had this chick that was addicted to eating Foam! Like seat cushion foam ect. Do you think she would loose control on a Supra Vs a Axis. Because Axis has no foam under the floor? Do you think she could smell the foam filled Supra and would just "go crazy" and start ripping threw the floor and having foam feast?
Or if you owned a Axis with little to no foam would you be safe????
Old     (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       12-21-2014, 6:48 AM Reply   
SCfan- I am almost positive the OP asked about the Surf System and not all the other nosense you decided ramble on about.
Old     (SCfan)      Join Date: Mar 2014       12-21-2014, 8:29 AM Reply   
Chatt, I am sorry, I clearly had you mixed up with another member. But that does not negate the fact that it has happened to him and to others. Also I said it should never be a problem with an experienced driver, and clearly you are. Next I don't think anyone believes that his friends Supra actually drug board racks in the water. That is just ridiculous, but it did make for an entertaining thread. As for patent laws, everyone has completely ignored them with the surf system, and Malibu has even sued over it. But that has not stopped everyone from doing it, and no one is paying licensing fees.

McDonalds sells the most hamburgers in the world, are they the best? No. Since "Walkabout" passed Malibu is just not the same. So many good people have left, and now being a publicly traded company they just aren't as good as they once were. They are still a good boat, but they are not the best. That is my opinion. But they do sell the most. So take that for whatever it's worth.
Old     (tn_rider)      Join Date: Dec 2009       12-21-2014, 8:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
I see it more as passion.

I see it as more of a typical boat salesman plug. First thing he said is, I'm a dealer and I have drank every bit of the koolaid. Only having like 5 post, then randomly comes on this thread and makes a plug like that. If Craig can't post pics of the boats he builds for TX MC then IMO that post should be deleted. (Still bitter about Craig not being able to post his boat pics.)
Old     (Gary)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-21-2014, 10:05 AM Reply   
So kinda bogarting this but I am looking to get a new boat how is the new mojo wake, and how does it compare to that axis a22? I have an A22 I just hate the tower because its a bummer to put up and down since I store it in a boat lift in the summer. Any input is appreciated
Old     (tn_rider)      Join Date: Dec 2009       12-21-2014, 12:52 PM Reply   
Wake vs wake? A22 all day.
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-21-2014, 1:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary View Post
So kinda bogarting this but I am looking to get a new boat how is the new mojo wake, and how does it compare to that axis a22? I have an A22 I just hate the tower because its a bummer to put up and down since I store it in a boat lift in the summer. Any input is appreciated
Mondo wake is like every other Moomba wake....weak. By that I mean every Moomba wake I've wakeboarded behind the wake is soft lacking any real firmness to launch off of. Moomba wakes are also very narrow compared to others (simple fix I guess by adding a little bit more rope to keep from landing in the flats all the time beating up your knees). I've owned a Moomba and have friends with a couple Moomba models including the Mondo. I'll never own another but that's just my opinion. Like others have said, demo the Mondo, you might like it. I personally think the Mondo looks like an old VW van. I've also had an A22.
Old     (Gary)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-21-2014, 1:38 PM Reply   
I just hate the axis tower for collapsing it looks fine and I am think the mojo revamped the hull to more like supra any speculation on that?
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-21-2014, 1:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary View Post
I just hate the axis tower for collapsing it looks fine and I am think the mojo revamped the hull to more like supra any speculation on that?
Yeah, I'm on my 2nd Axis (A22 now A24) and the tower collapsibility needs a redesign for those who need to collapse it. I had my A22 for 2-1/2 yrs and never collapsed it, haven't collapsed my A24 yet either. My 2008 Moomba XLV had a crappy tower design to collapse and the tower was the noisiest and shaked the most out of all the boats I've ever owned.
Old     (SCfan)      Join Date: Mar 2014       12-21-2014, 2:56 PM Reply   
The new Mojo is extremely similar to the wake of the SA, which most have said to be fantastic. Demo, demo, demo.

I stated up front I was a dealer (not a manufacturer) so you all knew where I stand. I really do not believe this person is my customer, or even in my area. I did not plug my business by name or location. I am not trying to make anything off posting here, just offering my "professional" knowledge. I do not post often for just this reason, I have been reading here for years to stay on top of what my industry is doing. I appreciate every one here, as well as there views and opinions even if they are different than mine. Most of you are so set in your brand loyalty thinking there is no point in bothering. But this OP seemed like someone who really did not know and I felt he could benefit from some infrequently shared truth. 9 consecutive CSI awards, Skiers Choice must be doing something right. With that I will go back to lurking. Carry on gentlemen.
Old     (Rusty)      Join Date: Mar 2014       12-21-2014, 3:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by you_da_man View Post
Mondo wake is like every other Moomba wake....weak. By that I mean every Moomba wake I've wakeboarded behind the wake is soft lacking any real firmness to launch off of. Moomba wakes are also very narrow compared to others (simple fix I guess by adding a little bit more rope to keep from landing in the flats all the time beating up your knees). I've owned a Moomba and have friends with a couple Moomba models including the Mondo. I'll never own another but that's just my opinion. Like others have said, demo the Mondo, you might like it. I personally think the Mondo looks like an old VW van. I've also had an A22.
He didn't ask about the Mondo, he was asking about the 2015 Mojo. Which I highly doubt anyone on here saying the A22 is better have been on the new Mojo yet to have any knowledge of the new wake on it or really anything regarding it. Especially since it's coming with the new Raptor engine which is a beast apparently. I've heard it's based off of the SA hull which is definitely regarded as being a very good hull for wakeboarding, surfing, and general performance. If you want to dispute that then have at it, but trying to bash something you haven't even been on, and also bashing the wrong boat doesn't make you sound credible
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-21-2014, 4:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
He didn't ask about the Mondo, he was asking about the 2015 Mojo. Which I highly doubt anyone on here saying the A22 is better have been on the new Mojo yet to have any knowledge of the new wake on it or really anything regarding it. Especially since it's coming with the new Raptor engine which is a beast apparently. I've heard it's based off of the SA hull which is definitely regarded as being a very good hull for wakeboarding, surfing, and general performance. If you want to dispute that then have at it, but trying to bash something you haven't even been on, and also bashing the wrong boat doesn't make you sound credible
I stand corrected on the boat model Rusty, thought it was Mondo. I hope the Mojo (man the name sucks) gets new hull tweaks because my good friend has a 2014 SC350 Worlds and the wakeboard wake is nice. However, some people are Supra/a Moomba fanboys on here.

Last edited by you_da_man; 12-21-2014 at 4:10 PM.
Old     (tn_rider)      Join Date: Dec 2009       12-21-2014, 9:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCfan View Post
The new Mojo is extremely similar to the wake of the SA, which most have said to be fantastic. Demo, demo, demo.



I stated up front I was a dealer (not a manufacturer) so you all knew where I stand. I really do not believe this person is my customer, or even in my area. I did not plug my business by name or location. I am not trying to make anything off posting here, just offering my "professional" knowledge. I do not post often for just this reason, I have been reading here for years to stay on top of what my industry is doing. I appreciate every one here, as well as there views and opinions even if they are different than mine. Most of you are so set in your brand loyalty thinking there is no point in bothering. But this OP seemed like someone who really did not know and I felt he could benefit from some infrequently shared truth. 9 consecutive CSI awards, Skiers Choice must be doing something right. With that I will go back to lurking. Carry on gentlemen.

I wasn't trying to disrespect you, it just came off as a plug when I read it. I own a malibu, but can pretty much promise you if money wasn't an issue I wouldn't own one. It would be between a nautique (g23) or a supra (SE). Malibu lacks a boat to compete with any new flagship boat to date. People can dispute that the MXZ/LSV line is on par but they just aren't. I do believe that malibu is working on a new flagship. Maybe they could be considered in my future boats. As far as the topic at hand. I would choose the A22 every single day...and night.
Old     (SomeYeahoo)      Join Date: Dec 2014       12-22-2014, 2:16 PM Reply   
Thanks for all the input so far.

Obviously it would be ideal to test drive and test ride every boat out there prior to purchasing. That's a tough option, not only time-wise for me, but also because I'd have to talk each dealer into dewinterizing, taking the boat out on the lake (I live in a climate where the temps right now are 20s to 40s), and rewinterizing. They're all willing to let me do a lake test this time of year if it's the last thing after settling on terms/price, but there isn't exactly an on-lake boat show any time soon. I could wait until May to buy, but I'd like to get a deal that buying (or at least committing to buying) gets me this time of year.

This is compounded by the fact that my current boat is a 17 foot, 135 hp, I/O. EVERYTHING I test drive is going to seem awesome to me. So I'm coming to you folks who know better than I do to ask which boat's wakeboarding wake and surf wake are better. The only quasi-scientific thing I've seen put MC's surf system up against Malibu's, and MC was slightly better in that "study". But I don't even have anecdote as far as all these other systems.

I mostly just want to hear if Moomba's and Supra's systems work well and if they're

1) Much worse than Axis's
2) Slightly worse than Axis's
3) About the same as Axis's
4) A little better than Axis's
5) A lot better than Axis's

Sure, some people like different things, I suppose, but mostly I just want a wake system that is easy to use, won't break, and puts up a big fat wave to push me down the lake (or let's me become a better wakeboarder.) Is that too much to ask? Surely there are plenty of people who have ridden both on here and can share their opinions.
Old     (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       12-22-2014, 3:15 PM Reply   
Moomba's Auto Flow system is new for this spring so no one can compare them for you yet, but both boats put out very respectable wakes and waves.

I think the consensus is Axis will have a slightly better Wakeboard wake and the Mojo will have a slightly better surf wave. Let me be clear though, neither boat will hold you back in any way, shape or form. We have ran a wakeboard school with a 2012 Mojo and have seen kids doing their first wake jump to coaching national champion athletes doing 720's and KGB's etc.. An Axis Wake won't make you a better rider. And the Mojo wave won't mean you can do more 360's on a surf board than the axis. Both will be awesome boats.

I made the exact same jump as you 7 years ago to a brand new Moomba and it was an amazing trouble free boat for 4 years and 400 hours, and now I own an X-30. I would not hesitate to buy another Moomba or MC.

I think checking out the actual storage, seating, and layout are equally important when comparing 2 very similar boats, both with great wakes. Warranty, dealer, motor and looks are also important. I wouldn't make this decision based soley on internet opinions about the surf system.
Old     (Gary)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-22-2014, 3:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeYeahoo View Post
Thanks for all the input so far.

Obviously it would be ideal to test drive and test ride every boat out there prior to purchasing. That's a tough option, not only time-wise for me, but also because I'd have to talk each dealer into dewinterizing, taking the boat out on the lake (I live in a climate where the temps right now are 20s to 40s), and rewinterizing. They're all willing to let me do a lake test this time of year if it's the last thing after settling on terms/price, but there isn't exactly an on-lake boat show any time soon. I could wait until May to buy, but I'd like to get a deal that buying (or at least committing to buying) gets me this time of year.

This is compounded by the fact that my current boat is a 17 foot, 135 hp, I/O. EVERYTHING I test drive is going to seem awesome to me. So I'm coming to you folks who know better than I do to ask which boat's wakeboarding wake and surf wake are better. The only quasi-scientific thing I've seen put MC's surf system up against Malibu's, and MC was slightly better in that "study". But I don't even have anecdote as far as all these other systems.

I mostly just want to hear if Moomba's and Supra's systems work well and if they're

1) Much worse than Axis's
2) Slightly worse than Axis's
3) About the same as Axis's
4) A little better than Axis's
5) A lot better than Axis's

Sure, some people like different things, I suppose, but mostly I just want a wake system that is easy to use, won't break, and puts up a big fat wave to push me down the lake (or let's me become a better wakeboarder.) Is that too much to ask? Surely there are plenty of people who have ridden both on here and can share their opinions.
I feel your plight I am in the same position of trying to demo a boat. I currently have an 2013 Axis A22 it doesn't have surf gate and I think they just revamped the hull for 2015 so I can't speculate to much on a brand new. I do love the A22 wake I run stock ballast plus PNP bow and 750s in the back compartments with the wedge down the wake is solid and a lot of fun for wake boarding. I have the 350hp motor with the high altitude prop and it struggles to get on plain so a motor upgrade is recommended from me if you are looking to run that kind of weight for wake boarding.

My buddy has a Malibu VLX with surf gate and it is awesome you will have plenty of push. I will tell you that it seems limited with wave manipulation without weighting the boat differently. I know that it is not this isn't and Axis but I hope it helps.

I have not rode behind a moomba or a supra so I can't say anything there but I am curious as well. I do know moomba is going to be available with an automatic system similar to that of supra's now.
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-22-2014, 5:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary View Post
I feel your plight I am in the same position of trying to demo a boat. I currently have an 2013 Axis A22 it doesn't have surf gate and I think they just revamped the hull for 2015 so I can't speculate to much on a brand new. I do love the A22 wake I run stock ballast plus PNP bow and 750s in the back compartments with the wedge down the wake is solid and a lot of fun for wake boarding. I have the 350hp motor with the high altitude prop and it struggles to get on plain so a motor upgrade is recommended from me if you are looking to run that kind of weight for wake boarding.

My buddy has a Malibu VLX with surf gate and it is awesome you will have plenty of push. I will tell you that it seems limited with wave manipulation without weighting the boat differently. I know that it is not this isn't and Axis but I hope it helps.

I have not rode behind a moomba or a supra so I can't say anything there but I am curious as well. I do know moomba is going to be available with an automatic system similar to that of supra's now.
No need for the motor upgrade for a 350 motor in a 2015 A22 IF you are not at altitude. The 2015 350 has lower gears than your 2013 motor. Plus all you have to do is get the 2315 prop to replace your 1235 prop and your problems are done with your 2013 350 motor. The 2315 will handle those 750 rear PnP sacks all day.

Last edited by you_da_man; 12-22-2014 at 6:01 PM.
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       12-22-2014, 6:19 PM Reply   
The 2015 Axis a22 is an amazing boat. That gets my vote here
Old     (SomeYeahoo)      Join Date: Dec 2014       12-23-2014, 1:17 AM Reply   
At altitude, and also leaning toward the T23, so a motor upgrade will be a necessity. My dealer orders his in with 409s, and I'll probably go for the 450.
Old     (RideGull)      Join Date: Apr 2012       12-23-2014, 8:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeYeahoo View Post
At altitude, and also leaning toward the T23, so a motor upgrade will be a necessity. My dealer orders his in with 409s, and I'll probably go for the 450.
Remember when looking at all these boats, use them like you would on the water. Take stuff in an out of storage compartments, like the cooler/trash can, bow storage, battery switch. Can you fit boards in the rear compartments?. Sit in every seat and every seat configuration. Lower and raise tower. Set up bimini and put it away.
Don't fall for a boat just because it looks good in the show room - if the functionality is not up to par, you will not be happy with your purchase.
Old     (Supravol22)      Join Date: Jul 2013       12-23-2014, 8:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by RideGull View Post
Remember when looking at all these boats, use them like you would on the water. Take stuff in an out of storage compartments, like the cooler/trash can, bow storage, battery switch. Can you fit boards in the rear compartments?. Sit in every seat and every seat configuration. Lower and raise tower. Set up bimini and put it away.
Don't fall for a boat just because it looks good in the show room - if the functionality is not up to par, you will not be happy with your purchase.
Great advice.
Old     (redsupralaunch)      Join Date: Aug 2002       12-23-2014, 11:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeYeahoo View Post
At altitude, and also leaning toward the T23, so a motor upgrade will be a necessity. My dealer orders his in with 409s, and I'll probably go for the 450.
When choosing a Moomba/Supra, you wont have to worry about being under powered with the 6.2Raptor motor. IMO the benefits of the motor alone would close the deal, not to mention the ridiculous upcharge price it takes just to go from 5.7 to 6.0 to 6.2 with the Axis/Malibu
Old     (sevy)      Join Date: Aug 2014       12-23-2014, 2:56 PM Reply   
You may want to consider a nautique. My wife and I just want through this process this summer. We spent 30 hours test driving various brands and ended up ordering a SAN 230. We really like the drivability of the boat when compared to the other brands and the adjustability of the NSS system. Nautique also offers a VIP program for people who are considering buying a new boat. The program allows you to go to Orlando to tour the facility, do test drives and spend a couple of hours getting lessons from a pro.

We just sold a 2011 Moomba lsv. I had considered retrofitting it with a surf deck and their flow system, but we wanted a little longer boat. If you want to save some money, you could ask your dealer about adding swell or an automated flow system to a used boat. MC and Nautique also offer some retrofit options for Gen 2 and NSS.

Good luck. Isn't it fun to spend obscene amounts of money on big kid toys.
Old     (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       12-23-2014, 3:37 PM Reply   
I haven't been on a new moomba, supra or a 2015 axis, so I can't give you any words of advice there, but i can say the dealer who put in his two cents, either lacks knowledge about boats and simple physics or is trying to sell you on things that really don't matter, in my experince with these types of dealers it's usually the latter. You take a big roller over any of these boats and fill them enough to have to worry about sinking they are toast, period. none of them are going to go to the bottom with ballast in them, becasue ballast is neutrally buoyant. They will fill with water and float just at the surface of the water, but doesn't matter because once you fill a boat with that much water everything is toast. Foam in the voids may be a noise reducer, but that's really its only benefit.

Wedge vs plate, they do different things and some people like one and not the other. The wedge, for me at least, is more a shaping tool than a building one. I have had 2 malibus with power wedge( going on my third with the PW2), and have been in multiple axis boats with the floating wedge. Power wedge is a whole different ball game from floating, so I'd say the plates on moombas have the edge here. If you're looking at an axis you aren't really looking to spend supra ( or nautique that was mentioned) money. So keep it at the two of them when comparing. i do think supra is really coming out with some great products, but that's a whole different price point, and in my area way too expensive for it's price class.

Surf systems the axis is hands down over the current moomba config. I haven't seen the new moomba one, so can't say anything about it, but the current manual one is crap. Surf gate is much much better, at least right now.

Wakeboard wake, the axis is a beast. I also feel like it feels better interior wise. Man they have done some really great things with the 2015 axis
Old     (Throwaway1)      Join Date: Nov 2013       12-27-2014, 12:43 PM Reply   
also, all of the current AXIS boats are shoebox, with the exception of the a20
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-27-2014, 2:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
I haven't been on a new moomba, supra or a 2015 axis, so I can't give you any words of advice there, but i can say the dealer who put in his two cents, either lacks knowledge about boats and simple physics or is trying to sell you on things that really don't matter, in my experince with these types of dealers it's usually the latter. You take a big roller over any of these boats and fill them enough to have to worry about sinking they are toast, period. none of them are going to go to the bottom with ballast in them, becasue ballast is neutrally buoyant. They will fill with water and float just at the surface of the water, but doesn't matter because once you fill a boat with that much water everything is toast
I'm on my 2nd Axis (A24 this time) and obviously like the brand but I like boats from all the others as well. However, your statement that these boats will not go to the bottom if swamped while having water ballast is false. I've personally seen a Malibu sink, seen an X-2 sink, and an acquaintance of mine sunk his Axis last year.
Old     (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-27-2014, 4:24 PM Reply   
All i got to say about the above post is that is a lot of boats to have seen sink. so either you are full of ****, or you should get some new friends. jk.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-28-2014, 6:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by redsupralaunch View Post
When choosing a Moomba/Supra, you wont have to worry about being under powered with the 6.2Raptor motor. IMO the benefits of the motor alone would close the deal, not to mention the ridiculous upcharge price it takes just to go from 5.7 to 6.0 to 6.2 with the Axis/Malibu
Did you forget about the fact that Moomba/Supra prices automatically went up 5k on the base price because of the new motor?? The only difference now, is that you don't have a choice. You are still paying for that upgrade.
Old     (Rusty)      Join Date: Mar 2014       12-28-2014, 8:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
Did you forget about the fact that Moomba/Supra prices automatically went up 5k on the base price because of the new motor?? The only difference now, is that you don't have a choice. You are still paying for that upgrade.
That would be inaccurate. Go to the configurator on Moomba's website and you'll see that it's about a 3% increase which is also on par or less than what other manufacturers increased this year including Axis (without the engine).
Old     (BaadLS1)      Join Date: Dec 2013       12-28-2014, 8:34 AM Reply   
I would want to compare the costs on two different purchase agreements before coming to any conclusions. From what I can see on Moomba's site, the configuraton isn't even displaying the 5.7 for comparison purposes.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       12-28-2014, 10:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
That would be inaccurate. Go to the configurator on Moomba's website and you'll see that it's about a 3% increase which is also on par or less than what other manufacturers increased this year including Axis (without the engine).
Ya? 2014 SA base price was 98k, and the 2015 base price is 105,200. Not to mention that they dropped over 2k of standard features. Even without the loss of standard features, it was an over 7% jump. The 3% planned jump for Skiers choice this year, plus the 4-5k for the new motors.

SC is the same story.

I'm not up to speed on Moomba, but my dealer did say it was unfortunate the prices increased so much on a price point boat. "The days of the 45-60k moomba are over" was what he said.


Malibu had a 4% increase. MC and CC were 2%. Not sure of the others.

Last edited by Fixable; 12-28-2014 at 10:30 AM.
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-28-2014, 11:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
All i got to say about the above post is that is a lot of boats to have seen sink. so either you are full of ****, or you should get some new friends. jk.
Both the Malibu and MC I arrived after they sank in very rough conditions, open water, and big lake. Inexperienced drivers in both, both boats swamped from the transom. Neither were my friends but the Axis that did sink last summer was heavily loaded with people, moderate ballast, and very inexperienced driver with the owner surfing. Bow went under, boat went under other rollers. Saw this boat at my dealer after 3 days of sitting at the bottom of the lake.
Old     (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       12-28-2014, 12:34 PM Reply   
So it had moderate ballast? We were talking heavily loaded boats with ballast. More ballast more neutrality in its buoyancy. The ballast has to counter the weight of the boat. I've inly ever seen one heavily ballasted boat sink. It was an xstar that hit a rock at Powell and it sunk where the gunnels were just under the water. Stayed that way even when towed by the dredger
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-28-2014, 2:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
So it had moderate ballast? We were talking heavily loaded boats with ballast. More ballast more neutrality in its buoyancy. The ballast has to counter the weight of the boat. I've inly ever seen one heavily ballasted boat sink. It was an xstar that hit a rock at Powell and it sunk where the gunnels were just under the water. Stayed that way even when towed by the dredger
The Axis that sunk was floated by using those commercial lifting air bags...so it really went down. The Axis had too many adults in the bow, plus oncoming rollers, young inexperienced driver not knowing how to handle the weight and rollers.

Last edited by you_da_man; 12-28-2014 at 2:48 PM.
Old     (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       12-28-2014, 2:49 PM Reply   
So more boat than ballast. Sinking one of these boats with out actually compromising the hull takes serious skill, or lack there of
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       12-28-2014, 3:20 PM Reply   
Water ballast is neutrally buoyant. But I think you are taking that totally wrong. That has ZERO effect on not sinking the boat. Once the boat swamps it's true it no longer weighs the boat down. But the rest of the 4000-6000 lbs of non-floating and non-neutally buoyant material will sink the boat just the same. These boats do sink to the bottom. Little to no foam to hold them. Once the boat is swamped you need positive flotation neutrally buoyant material, in this case water ballast bags/ tanks, will not float it. The small amount of air trapped in the bags will have no effect.

I will agree that swamping a boat takes either serious lack of driving skill or very poor weather or a combination. Sometimes just bad luck or a series of bad circumstances. But once swamped, regardless of how, these boats can and do sink to the bottom not to the gunnels.
Old     (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       12-28-2014, 5:03 PM Reply   
It all depends on how much ballast is there to counter the weight of the boat. For the boat to sink it has to over come the waters neutral buoyancy. If you have have more neutral buoyancy than negative buoyancy will get the hovering effect where the boat floats just under the surface.

Just like you need more positive buoyancy than negative to keep it a float. It would take a lot of foam to float a swamped boat.

Last edited by cjh1669; 12-28-2014 at 5:05 PM.
Old     (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       12-28-2014, 5:39 PM Reply   
If you want to get technical there will be positive neutral and negative buoyancy in play in every boat as it sinks. They all have some foam and other material that will be positive, not all 4-5k of a boat is negative when swamped
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       12-28-2014, 7:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
If you want to get technical there will be positive neutral and negative buoyancy in play in every boat as it sinks. They all have some foam and other material that will be positive, not all 4-5k of a boat is negative when swamped
And having 3-4 batteries and an anchor doesn't help either lol

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