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Old     (davomaddo)      Join Date: Feb 2003       10-30-2009, 3:16 PM Reply   
Growing up wakeboarding, there has been some major innovation - v-drives, wrap around seating, perfect pass, trim tabs/wedge, integrated ballast, pickle fork - those were all pretty big advances.

It seems like things have slowed down a lot.

Will there be anything exciting to look forward to come this winter's boat shows?
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       10-30-2009, 3:48 PM Reply   
I always thought a V-drive on wakeboats was a great innivation until I realized most of the old (1965 or so) inboard wood boats on our lake also have V-drives. The v-drive inboard has been around forever. Anyway, I'm with you? Is innovation over? I wish there would be more R&D into hull shape. Most wakeboats seem to be retreads of old hulls from 10 years ago with some minor tweaks.

(Message edited by tre on October 30, 2009)
Old     (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-30-2009, 3:58 PM Reply   
I think all of the things Dave listed came from other types of boats. So maybe check out all the other boats at the show & you'll get some idea of what will be new to wake sport boats in coming years.
Old     (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-30-2009, 4:40 PM Reply   
With the exception of integrated ballast and perfect pass, everything Dave listed was around long before wakeboarding. Having said that, I do agree, that it seems not too much innovation has come around lately, and a lot of companies are just adding more crap (read bling) to be able to call it something new from the previous model year.

When it comes down to it, you are pulling a person behind a boat on an object, which has been done in some form or another for dozens of years, so it's not like wakeboarding re-invented tow sports, it's just currently one of the more popular ways to have fun behind a boat.
Old     (razzman)      Join Date: Dec 2006       10-30-2009, 5:19 PM Reply   
I agree Chris, afterall how many ways can you tow someone around before the gimmicks appear as they have already?
Old     (dlamont)      Join Date: Apr 2003       10-30-2009, 5:36 PM Reply   
I was talking with some of the factory guys at MC last month about this and they seem to be focused on hull design and new power plant options. I think the sport of wakeboarding drives innovation more than boat builders do.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       10-30-2009, 5:47 PM Reply   
I think the touch screen dashes are a little innovative.
Old    mcbean7            10-30-2009, 6:17 PM Reply   
Does anyone think the diesel engine will ever make it to the wakeboat scene?
I'm no mechanic but diesels are made for towing...right? And that's what we do all day in our towboats...right? Wouldn't it make sense to put a diesel power plant in a wakeboat?
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-30-2009, 6:26 PM Reply   
I have a diesel truck and I would not want to smell that crap all day while out in the boat.
Old     (razzman)      Join Date: Dec 2006       10-30-2009, 6:46 PM Reply   
I don't know. I know there are some awfully impressive marine diesels available now and i'll bet they'll make it into the boats as emissions standards get more stringent. I was really impressed with the specs of VW Marine Divisions V8 diesel.
Old     (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-30-2009, 6:50 PM Reply   
Is major innovation over - IMHO NO
Old     (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       10-30-2009, 6:54 PM Reply   
IMO-No, competition can spark innovation and it's good for the consumer. I hope no more boat manufactures go out of business.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-30-2009, 7:00 PM Reply   
^^^+1
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-30-2009, 7:46 PM Reply   
A 350hp 6cyl Yanmar would be pretty awesome in a larger towboat. The larger boats need so much ballast to create good wakes that a fuel efficient diesel would be very nice. Plus you could probably put a 350hp diesel in any boat from a 20' up to a 24 foot and it would perform pretty good. There is a guy on wakeworld that actually put a yanmar diesel in his newer hull Xstar. It would be interesting to know what kind of fuel economy he is getting and if it performs well and is ok as far as diesel exhaust goes.

My dad replaced twin 440 chryslers in his 40' tolly with twin ~350 hp yanmars and it was night and day. Those things burned about half the fuel of the 440's and diesel is cheaper on the water up here. Well worth the investment. The only issue I see is that retail on a Yanmar turbo diesel is probably ~20k with transmissions. Anybody know what an MCX or LY6 package is retail?

(Message edited by polarbill on October 30, 2009)
Old     (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-30-2009, 8:58 PM Reply   
Pod drives. Effective variable hydrofoils to raise and lower the hull. Real convertible tops. Full auto ballast and list control. Variable transmission. Smart sensors to provide an active suspension effect for rollers...
Man, there is a lot of stuff not on wakeboats yet.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       10-30-2009, 9:20 PM Reply   
I would like to see an auto-inflate blow up spotter.
Old     (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-30-2009, 9:51 PM Reply   
Epic's hybrid seems like a big forward. Hybrids are not new but for a wake boat... insane!
Old     (davomaddo)      Join Date: Feb 2003       10-30-2009, 10:07 PM Reply   
Nice ideas Art.
Existing technology that is incorporated into a wakeboard boat for the first time is considered an innovation in my book - at least with respect to wakeboard boats - which is what we are talking about.
Old     (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       10-31-2009, 5:04 AM Reply   
If gas gets to $5/gal or higher and stays high, I think, or at least hope, we will see some major innovations, in engine, trannys, and propulsion. Some of the things Art mentioned are already there in other boats.

It seems putting an auto or CVT tranny in boats should have been done a decade ago. I know MB has or had a clunky two speed tranny, but solid auto trannys have been in light duty trucks for decades. Seems crazy that in 2009, the only way to change your ultimate drive ratio is by re-propping.
Old     (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       10-31-2009, 5:25 AM Reply   
If gas gets to $5/gal or higher and stays high, I think, or at least hope, we will see some major innovations, in engine, trannys, and propulsion. Some of the things Art mentioned are already there in other boats.

It seems putting an auto or CVT tranny in boats should have been done a decade ago. I know MB has or had a clunky two speed tranny, but solid auto trannys have been in light duty trucks for decades. Seems crazy that in 2009, the only way to change your ultimate drive ratio is by re-propping.
Old     (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-31-2009, 6:02 AM Reply   
If gas gets to 5/gal or higher it wont matter what new innovations are installed.
Old     (jason95gt)      Join Date: May 2006       10-31-2009, 6:49 AM Reply   
Epic has a hybrid boat out for 09. Not cheap, but atleast they are moving in the right direction. I think the boat gets 50% better fuel economy.
Old     (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       10-31-2009, 7:19 AM Reply   
Epic Hybrid is by far the biggest innovation in tow boats in a long time.
Old     (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-31-2009, 7:34 AM Reply   
I think hull design will be big and integrated ballast is still a pain in the arse. Impellars going bad. I like the mb sports gravity. But there has to be A reason they are the only ones doing it. I know tige gets hammered a lot but figuring a way to create a bigger wake fuel effeciency with hull design in the future will be great and of course motor stuff. Hahahhahaha
Old     (woreout)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-31-2009, 7:46 AM Reply   
There are a lot of ideas and innovations out there but I think the main reason we dont see them in production is $$ cost. Diesels are available but they are very pricey. I myself, would like to see an automatic folding tower.
Old     (srh00z)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-31-2009, 8:20 AM Reply   
It seems like you could do a variable pitch prop to impact efficiency. Of course, it would be costly and more moving parts usually means more ways to fail. I think Art had a great point when talking about variable hydrofoils that could be adjusted on the fly and decrease the need for water ballast.
Old    shooter_08            10-31-2009, 8:22 AM Reply   
+1 one for Epic with twin rudders, transom speakers and a hybrid option. I would like to see a variable pitch prop, but the cost would probably out weigh the benefits.
Old     (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       10-31-2009, 8:52 AM Reply   
In reference to gravity ballast MB is not the only one doing it, Calabria has been doing it for years. I can't understand why every isn't doing it either. Maybe it's hard to fine to the weight you carry, it seems like it would pretty much be all or nothing with that type of system.
Old     (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       10-31-2009, 8:59 AM Reply   
If I'm not mistaken Tige has springs in side the tower to make it easy for folding. I my self would like to see an adjustable steering damper.
Old     (snowboardcorey)      Join Date: Jan 2004       10-31-2009, 9:24 AM Reply   
I think it would be interesting to see the effect of winged tracking fins as a way of adding downforce to the boats. MC ran a winged rudder to create lift on their ski boats in the late 90's.
Upload
Old     (greg2)      Join Date: May 2002       10-31-2009, 9:34 AM Reply   
I've always wondered about a "wedge" type device located as part of or close to the tracking fins. Done right it cold at forward ballast.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-31-2009, 9:44 AM Reply   
Corey, I see your point but I think those winged fins were put on the 98 or 99 190 so it wouldn't chine lock as bad.
Old     (snowboardcorey)      Join Date: Jan 2004       10-31-2009, 10:15 AM Reply   
The winged rudders were used to create lift, they ran them up until 2002 when hook was added to the hull.

MC also added hydro rails to this generation 190, I think they had something to do with the turing issues of this hull but the winged rudder carried over to the 190 evo hulls.
Upload
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-31-2009, 10:36 AM Reply   
Yeah, that makes more sense. Talk about all time botch of a hull design.
Old     (brett564)      Join Date: Jul 2006       10-31-2009, 2:50 PM Reply   
I want to see Solar panels built right in front of the windshield area behind the bow seats. Just something big enough to keep the batteries charged longer during times when the boat is anchored and people are just listening to the stereo. I would deffinately pay for that upgrade.

Right now I bought those little portable solar panels from Sam's Club which work great, but they're kind of a hassle setting up and putting away.
Old     (nick_in_ssp)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-31-2009, 7:55 PM Reply   
What about a true no ballast wake boat. I know it sounds like an oxymoron but I think the technology is there and it has kind of already happened. Take an old 1980's Nautique and a early 2000's 210 Nautique. The hulls are very close to the same shape and surface area but the 210 is bigger, wider and weighs alot more. When on plane both have close to the same amount of hull surface area touching the water. Think of a 24' boat having the hull narrowed so it was identical to a 20' boat. The length on the 24' boat would be the same but it would put out a wake of a 20' boat fully loaded. To get a good wake out of a bigger boat you need more weight due to surface area on the water but if you take some of that surface area away the boat would ride much deeper and that is what getting a wake is all about.
Old     (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       10-31-2009, 8:45 PM Reply   
^^ No ballast might be in the near future. The feds might create a law to prevent the spread of invasive species like the zebra mussel.

(Message edited by lionel on October 31, 2009)
Old     (brett564)      Join Date: Jul 2006       10-31-2009, 10:12 PM Reply   
Ahh, Well done! ^^
Old     (tgoin)      Join Date: Apr 2009       11-01-2009, 5:48 AM Reply   
Already happening ... ballast is a bad thing to have around here. Those dang mussels.

Also troublesome at Lake Powell. If you have bags that are hooked up, the inspection procedure takes a lot longer, and you're in for a decontamination.

Mine are all disconnected and the front one is at home. If we're gonna surf, I put them in the boat, but leave them unhooked when we get there.

THe guys with hard tanks have a real problem.
Old     (corbin)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-01-2009, 6:36 AM Reply   
What do bags/hard tanks have to do with the mussles? I have two hard tanks and was able to get the sticker without the guy even seeing the boat! I guess I'm just don't know anything about these mussles
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       11-01-2009, 6:53 AM Reply   
We've had zebra mussles in our lake for at least 10 years. I have yet to have a mussel on my boat or in a ballast bag. If you see them, you would know this is impossible. They are like a very slow moving snail. The only way they can get on your hull is if you keep your boat in the water for weeks or months. The mussels got to the point where you could not see the pier posts because there were so many mussels on the posts. The bass population grew and ate most of the mussels. I also assume whatever the mussles eat must have been mostly gone from the lake since the mussel population is down about 98% from what it was about 5 years ago. Nature took care of it and the lake and fish population seem to be better off because of it. Perch, bass, etc, - all populations are up. It was rare to see perch 10 years ago and now they are everywhere. The lake is also more clear.
Old     (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       11-01-2009, 7:40 AM Reply   
The problem with mussels and ballast, or any other pest and ballast, is not a mussel growing in your tank. It's the babies that are in the water and can be transported from one location to another. Same with invasive weeds.
The water in your lake is clearer because the mussels remove algae. Clearer water means more sunlight on the bottom and more weed growth. Different, not necessarily better.
Old     (davomaddo)      Join Date: Feb 2003       11-02-2009, 12:45 PM Reply   
I collected all my reciepts this summer to get a gas tax refund. Here are my stats:
- 120 hours
- $1,300 total spent on gas
- Average price per gallon around $2.80

A 25% improvement in fuel economy would be a pretty good improvement, but that would only save me about $325/year.

If it cost an extra $3000 to gain a 25% fuel efficiency - it would take be around 10 years for that to pay off.

If the cost of fuel doubles, the ROI then gets cut in half. Or, if my usage doubled - etc, etc.
You can run different scenerios all day long.
Old     (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-02-2009, 1:46 PM Reply   
To bjeremi: The ballast design your talking about is patented by Mike Murphy. See http://www.mikemurphyentinc.com I don't know all the details of his arrangements with Calabria or MB, but I'm sure they pay for exclusivity of some kind, which would restrict how many other boat manufacturers used the idea.

And to Greg: Mike played with this idea some years ago, even setting up some engineering patents for it. I think I have some pictures of a late 80s Prostar 190 mocked up with center mounted foils for ballast. As I understand it, Malibu made an arrangement with him when they came up with the Wedge. So I suspect their patents cover any center mounted foils too. Also check out Volga boats in the 1960s & 70s...... center mounted foils for lift. Interesting concept that proved to be troublesome getting on a trainer, hitting debris in the water, etc.


(Message edited by bill_airjunky on November 02, 2009)
Old     (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-02-2009, 1:59 PM Reply   
I know Larry has been working on this concept
http://www.lowriderboats.com/
Old     (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-02-2009, 2:05 PM Reply   
Bill, yeah I knew Mike held the patant on it. Didn't think about the exclusivity thing though. That's probably it. I was thinking that the other manufacturers just didn't like it for some unknown reason. I thought I remember someone mentioning X-stars of a certain year coming with it.
Old     (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-02-2009, 2:10 PM Reply   
i am pretty sure that ballast system is available for license to any manufacturer.
Old     (mastercraftboarder)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-02-2009, 2:42 PM Reply   
Those Volgas must be a freaking pain to trailer... with the like 5 different foils on there...
Old     (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       11-02-2009, 2:53 PM Reply   
The purvert ballast is available. But I heard that they want too much for the rights. I Think its a sweet idea, but it would be hard to adjust the weight. Maybe a four tank purvert, with some pumps to adjust.}}
Old     (wofrankwo)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-02-2009, 3:14 PM Reply   
the lowrider idea is cool .... you could completely get rid of ballast on your boat and actually dig in as deep as you wanted to .... been looking at many ways to do this but it keeps coming back to how do you keep it attached to the hull without ripping off the bottom
Old     (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-02-2009, 3:25 PM Reply   
That lowrider concept looks like it would work, and get around the Wedge patents. Would be interesting to see how the boat handles with it deployed. Seems like it would act like a trim tab with it pushed down, forcing the bow down. Might do double duty as wake enhancement or ride enhancement similar to the Switchblade.

Mike told us the center mounted foil made the boat handle really well, and still kick up a nice wake. But like Jordan said, would be a pain to trailer. The Volga owners have to use cranes to do it.

You guys are right that Purevert is available to other manufacturers, at a price. He thought it up & he's not giving it away for free.
Old     (kirk)      Join Date: May 2003       11-02-2009, 5:32 PM Reply   
Just wait until California mandates emission free engines in the not to distant future...
You guys are going to have the first electric wakeboats!
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-03-2009, 9:07 AM Reply   
The lowrider would be cool unless its kicking up a massive rooster right into the wake (which I would suspect). The wedge is a lot lower under the boat and is centralized creating turbulence down the center of the wake. That lowrider concept could really screw with the wake. I would imagine the boat being MUCH more finicky with weight, cutting out would pull one end up, etc. etc.
Old     (wofrankwo)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-03-2009, 1:07 PM Reply   
the lowrider idea or a wing, foil, scoop, that would deploy when boat is starting out and be adjustable enough to bring your stern corner as far down as you would need it without a single ounce of ballast would be cool .... as soon as you throttle down that would bring the device back up .... i am more of a wakesurfing nut and that idea along with a contoured rear corner and side of the boat to facilitate the wake would be dynamite, i throw a huge surf wake but the rubrail or lack of 1 would be a crucial improvement in the lip of the wake, a false side to smooth out the rubrail?
Old     (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-03-2009, 1:41 PM Reply   
Liquidmx, I think your right about the lowrider option messing with the wake. The Wedge makes the propwash about 4'wide. It's not so noticable on a board. But it's a mess on a foil...... like riding a bicycle in deep gravel. I make a point to jump over it most of the time.
Old     (fic)      Join Date: May 2008       11-04-2009, 3:35 AM Reply   
It will be interesting to see how california handles emission rules in the future, right now there is a battle going on over hybrids, cradle to grave electric cars are more pollutting then conventional gas powered cars, you will see in boats probably by 2011 sealed fuel tanks or non vented, this will help drivabilty and less fuel usage.

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