Recycle This II part II Ready for glass

OK Jeff, a new thread. I think your just trying to keep the record for longest thread to yourself

The nose and tail of the board were looking a little shaky. The nose actually came out about as good as I would have hoped. It has sharply bent edges - not smooth like a shaped foam board.

I taped up the balance of the exposed rails this evening. I’ll I have to do before glassing is router in the fin boxes. I’ve never glassed before, that will be interesting. I expect that the hard irregular rails will make lapping a little interesting.

The nose - not too bad



The tail - its a little flimsy



Covering the remaining side sections with cardboard





(Message edited by Bigshow on December 13, 2007)

Thanks Ed,

Did you leave the coupon on that box!!!! Rail laps are always a challenge, I'm sure you'll get it. This is such a fun build, I really like the kerfs on the rail skins.

Definitely left the coupon on the box on purpose. Kind of adds a touch of Mini Pearl.

LOL! I had to post the picture. If you know who Minnie Pearl is you are older than 30!

So from what I've read and seen about glassing it looks like you start with the bottom. You lap over about 3 inches of glass on the top side of the board.

What isn't clear to me is how much you’re supposed to over lap going from the top to the bottom. It’s either about the same 3 inches or just down to the rail. Any suggestions?

The way that I like to do it is dependent upon how many layers you intend to do. So lets assume that you were going to do 3 top and 2 bottom. I start the first lap a just a bit over the deck, but the second layer will extend FURTHER than the first lap. The key, that I have found to get the lap to stay is making sure the lap is WET.

Also, there are two or so type of laps. A free lap...which basically you cut the glass and then just lap whatever you have. The cut lap, as I understand it, is you wet the glass and then after it's had a second to gel it's easy to cut without the fraying or loose fibers. I know that some folks do a tape line and the cut with the razor, but my eyesight isn't good enough to do that without hacking into the board.

3 inches seems huge to me on the cardboard, but it would certainly adhere. Are you going to be using epoxy or polyester?

Ed - i would recommend freelaping that baby.
Stay away from cutlaping on the cardboard...

I can't wait to see pics of you on that thing! Excellent!

I have 1.5 gallons of RR epoxy for the three projects that I have. I'm not sure I want to use the good stuff on the cardboard surfboard. I also want to make sure that I have plenty of RR for the long board and the smaller 7'3" blank.

So I'm might use Elmer’s epoxy on this board. I’m only going to use one layer of 6 ounce on the top and bottom of this board. I was planning on two 6 ounce layers on the top of the long board and one on the bottom.

I was going at free lap this board and cut lap the other boards.

So for your example you put three layers of glass on the top all in one shot. When that cures you lay up the other side, two layers at once, right? The amount of over lap going top to bottom and bottom to top is about the same, less than 3 inches?

I wouldn't do 3 layers all at once. I'd interleave it - one bottom, flip one top, flip...second bottom, flip...then second and third layer on the top. I like to build ding resistance on the rails and find that the back and forth is almost like a warp and fill of the glass.

What’s a good winter activity in Columbus when it’s cold and snowing? Glassing surfboards of course

I built surfboard stands a while ago but didn’t get around to putting any foam on them so I did that before glassing. It took about one 8 foot section of 1” pipe foam per stand.

It’s a little below freeze right now. I heated the garage with a kerosene heater for about an hour before starting. I put the epoxy near the heater so it would be warm and I put the heater kind of near the board on the board stands. I opened the garage door a crack for ventilation.

This was my first glass job. I wanted a 2 inch over lap on this layer. I measured and marked 2 inches around the top side of the board. I taped off around the markings so I could easily see where 2 inches was.

Then I flipped the board and rolled out the glass. I lapped the glass a little past the blue tape at the nose and then marked a stop a little past the blue tape at the tail. After cutting the glass I marked where the glass overlapped the tape. Then I cut the excess glass off.

I wasn’t sure how much resin to use but thought that 16 ounces would be enough. Turns out that maybe 18 ounces would have been better. I had to scoop resin off of the floor to get the laps wet.

I dumped most of the resin in the center and squeegeed it front to back – and back to front. I had trouble getting the laps wet. Eventually I used the squeegee to paint the laps. Also as noted above I ran out of resin for the laps. I had fresh newspaper on the floor and was able to scoop up resin from the paper. That laps were in pretty good shape, maybe a spot or two are a little dry.

I should have cut a few kerfs in the glass before applying the resin. I definitely needed kerfs on at the nose. I ended up putting in about four at the tail.

It was all I could do to get the resin in place, squeegeed, and lapped before the epoxy started to gel. My last squeegee passes were side to side. I did that mostly to one side to pull resin to some of the dry laps.

Thirty minutes after I finished lapping I flipped the board and cut the laps with a razor along the tape line. Then I removed the tape and flipped the board back.

Problems:
1) I should have cut kerfs before glassing
2) I ran short on resin
3) I had trouble getting the laps wet.
4) When I worked the laps to get them wet I started pulling threads from the glass. I had a handful of stick glass threads.
5) I cut the laps too soon. The razor also pulled more threads

That was pretty cool but a little humbling. Making a board give you better appreciation for Walker Project and Shred Stixx boards.

That was this morning, it's still snowing

Pipe foam and duct taped stands


Measure the lap distance


Taped off 2 inch reference

The glass

Pizza Hut box through dry glass

marked 2 inch cut line

Trimmed glass and leftovers

Glassed board



Top side before cutting

That is an excellent first effort! Not to forget that's CARDBOARD you are working with, also.

Thanks Jeff.

Glassing Day-2

I took a few lessons learned form yesterday. Today I mixed up 20 ounces of resin. Before mixing the resin I cut the cloth at the tip of the nose and in five places around the tail. Rather than measuring and marking the cloth over hang length I used a section of cardboard as a cutting tool guide.

I did a little clean up from yesterday. I looked for loose strands of glass and resin bumps. I had to razor off a little of the remaining blue painters tape.

Since I had more resin to work with I had no problem getting the laps wet. I had fewer long strands of glass at the lap ends as well. I probably had fewer strands because I wasn’t working so hard to get the laps wet.

Today seemed to go a lot better than yesterday. It seemed like I had more time and less fussing.

The top board after curing over night.

Note the edge of the glass



A cheap guide for trimming the glass


A little art for the board

The art under dry glass


After glassing the top of the board


The art after saturating the glass


The nose

long view from the nose


Along the bottom side

Thats looking really good Mr Ed! Cant wait to see you bundled up in the dry suit ridin that bad boy!!

Love the artwork Ed, it needs a kokopeli pizza deliver guy though

Pizza delivery like this?

Increasing the cure temperature reduces cure time and increases the strength. I also had a kerosene heater in the garage. So I moved the heater very close to the board. Actually I positioned the heater slightly underneath the board in fact. While that might have sped curing and possibly increased strength it changed the color of the bottom to the board to a nice toasted marshmallow brown. I don’t think I’ll do that again.

I routered in fin boxes this evening. I placed the front point of the fin boxes 14 inches forward of the back of the board and 7 inches off the centerline. I think I made a big mistake. I intended to place the tail of the fin 7.5 inches off the centerline. However I measured too far forward. The fins are awfully pigeon toed. I think I need to rework the fin placement.

Toasted Marshmallows any one?

The top side remained relatively white

See how dark the edge is?


Measured the wrong toe in

One fin but only the deep grove has been routered in

The center grove and outer flange grove

Fins installed

Now THAT is a logo! Toasted Marshmallow - like the jelly belly flavor!

I repaired the fin toe in by filling the old fin boxes in with polyurethane foam “Great Stuff”, remarking the correct toe in, and re-routering the fin boxes. Looks like this might work.

Great stuff


Expanded foam

Sanded down

Marked with the new pattern

Routered new fin boxes

Test fitting fin boxes

Nice save!

I put a literally HOT coat on the bottom of the board Thursday evening and this morning I put a not so hot coat on the top of the board. Thursday evening I also installed the fin boxes with a little glass.

I said the Thursday hot cost was literally hot. I set a can of fairly cold epoxy next to the kerosene heater so it would warm up. The can got quite warm. I thought this would be a good thing. I thought that the epoxy might flow better while warm and I thought that the coat might be nice and thin. Also I thought the since the epoxy was warmer, and thinner that air bubbles would pop and flow out more readily. I was wrong. The epoxy was so warm that it cured too quickly. I didn’t have the time that I needed to spread it around. I also didn’t mix enough epoxy again. I quickly added another 4 ounces but the first batch of epoxy had already started to gel and so the second batch didn’t flow in the needed spaces well. I’ll have some sanding to do before adding another coat.

Before putting a coat of epoxy on the top I sanded the rails a little to remove bumps that the drip tape didn’t quite clean up.

This morning I mixed up more epoxy than I needed and I started out with room temperature epoxy. It was much easier to work with the epoxy on the top than the hot epoxy that I put on the bottom.

Fin boxes and a little glass


The bottom with both fin boxes and the entire bottom coated

Drip tape

Ready to put a coat on the top

The top of the board with a top coat


Drip tape after coating the top

Dang it!

Ed - its almost ready to ride!

yes the blue tape is not the way to go...

lots of guys on swaylocks swear by the 3M 233 series, and for any cutlaping or pinlining i would use it, but for just taping the rails for the hotcoat, some masking tape from Lowes or HD is fine.

I think I might have contributed to the problem with the tape. I taped low on the board to that most of the rail was exposed and I kind of painted the tape with dripping epoxy. Painting the tape with epoxy added weight. More weight than the tape could hold.

The top coat cured fairly fast. It looks fairly good. I don't think that I'm going to put another coat on the top.

I probably should have waited but I flipped the board and sanded down all the drip bumps. I sanded a few of the rough spots from the first coated on the bottom. Then I applied what I hope is the final coat. After this coat dries I'll take one more look at it. I might buff out some spots with fine sand paper. That should be it!

I started this project on November 3rd. Since then Jeff built about 10,000 experimental composite surf boards.

I’ll be ready to start the long board after the holidays. Santa is bringing tools.

(Message edited by Bigshow on December 21, 2007)

Yeah, I'm with Matt - cheapest masking tape at local hardware store for the hotcoat.

Isn't it 12,000? Ed, you're fabricating from cardboard! I think that is so awesome, but also it has to be seriously labor intensive. I'm sure that with w.foam you'll be cranking them out. Be sure to share you new tools.

A quick "share" for epoxy. You can heat it and thin it out. Just pop the resin ONLY in the microwave. Typically the hardener is thin, just the resin is thick. Then mix them together when you are ready to laminate - well nuke the resin just before you're ready. If you spread it out, rather than leaving it in the bucket, it won't kick too soon.

What you learned, though, is a good trick for the rails. I let my epoxy start to thicken before doing the rails. It sticks a bit better and also doesn't flood the tape so much. I typically do the deck and reserve some of the epoxy for the rails. I leave it in the bucket because that helps it kick also, then when it gels a bit, I do the rails.

I'm proud of you Ed!

I was thinking about a quote from Kendall Nishimine, who was a major player in the design and development of Hydro Epic hollow carbon surfboards.

"The problem with ultra complex surfboards is... simply made ones work great."

I've made some extremely complex wakesurfers...I really believe the wood skin/rail composites are the most complex arrangement I've ever tried. When I look back at the time it took me to construct a single board, I am sure that I could have shaped and glassed 3 to 4 foam boards...well PUPE boards...maybe 2 to 3 eps/epoxy. I think that until a SIGNIFICANT measurable improvement comes from some of these complex build techniques, Old School will be the standard. AND they're good.

You'll have to give me your impressions of the difference in construction between foam and your other efforts after you complete your first foam board.

Occam's Razor

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

(Latin for "Entities should not be multiplied more than
necessary"). That is, the fewer assumptions an explanation of
a phenomenon depends on, the better it is.

A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known. Also called law of parsimony.

I spent a fair amount of time sanding down the rails. The rails on this board are more irregular than a traditional surf board. I started sanding with 220-grit. I used a hand block and went through about four sheets of 220. I followed up with a half sheet of 320, a half sheet of 400, and a half sheet of 600. The finish is good enough with the 600 grit. There are a couple of zits but I don’t have a dust free work environment.

Final Statistics:
…Length: 65 inches
…Width: 21.5 inches
…Weight 15.5 pounds

Construction: Egg crate inner support composed of polyurethane saturated card board stringers on 2 inch centers. Outer skin is composed of cardboard pizza boxes, one layer of 6 ounce fiberglass on the top deck, one layer of 6 ounce fiber glass on the bottom, and epoxy resin.

Compared to last year’s effort:
…Length: 64 inches
…Width: 21 inches
…Weight 25 pounds



2006 - Kroger's 2007 - Pizza Hut

Looks so cool!! When are you taking it out? If you like come out here to tx and ride. i went wakeboarding yesterday with 78 air and 65 water.

I went wakeboarding a couple of weekends ago. There was snow on the ground, the water temperature was about 46 and the air temp was 34. With dry suits it really wasn’t that bad. I don’t know when my next opportunity to ride will be.

Thanks for the offer but I don’t think that I’ll be heading to Texas any time in the near future. It would be cool to get down to Texas some time to meet you, Larry Mann with Trick Boardz, and maybe a few other wakesurfn’ Texans. I’m traveling out to San Diego next week and I plan to surf in the ocean but I won’t bring this board.

I’m also trying to sell the Mighty Centurion and I don‘t plan to put her back in the water. She’s a darned good wakeboard boat and not a bad wakesurf boat. When I rig her for surfing I’m way over the weight limit – I need another boat. I’m not pulling the trigger on another boat until she’s gone so I don’t know when I’ll have a tow boat to ride behind. I have some friends that wakesurf, I’m sure I’ll get some invites until the new boat thing works out.

So on a new subject…, my wife and I saw the movie Legend last night. We walked in to the house through the garage past the completed board. First note that I have my first two foam blanks in the garage now. She stops and looks at for a second and comments, "Your not going to put cardboard boxes on the next board are you?" And she says something like "You should put some better art work on the next board."

OK, she’s been very tolerant of the whole wakesurfing and wakesurf board building hobby. We live in the Midwest, she doesn’t surf or wakesurf, and boating isn’t really her thing. I think the board concept, design and construction process is at least a little cool maybe even artistic. No question the board is a little rough in places. The cardboard didn’t always conform and cooperate to produce the shape that I had in mind. I don’t expect the performance like I would from a Shred Stixx board and I don’t think it will survive a lot of riding. It was more of a fun project and a way to enjoy my hobby in the off season. It was also fairly a labor intensive activity. I’ve learned a lot about surfboard building, I’ve ended up with a really unique surfboard, and the Pizza Hut box epidermis is entirely unique – I’m sure I haven’t copied anyone on that aspect. I’m going to call this art if I want to

To me that sounds like a challenge to build more surfboard and to be artistically creative, at least that where I’m, taking it. I have looked at Austin’s resin swirl board art and I have purchased pigmentation so I can attempt to do the same on my next board.

Jeff W., we’ve pushed the envelope on how light a board can be and we (you more than I) have worked on a number of alternative construction techniques. What do you say that next year we have an end of year or off-season board art competition? Start by building a wakesurf board, the board should be built by an amateur, the artwork should be also created by the board builder, only one entry, and you can use any art form that you can work into a board. For example Jeff W. might want to install a door knob. Judging criteria could include color, use of new methods, traditional surf board art, whatever. Maybe the WW community could be polled and asked to vote the winner. What do you think?

Oh man - and I just concede now? I am the WORST at art work. Funny story, James has an art class this year and they were learning to use a ruler in creative ways! Anyway, James forgot his ruler at home and failed "ruler" When he announced that, I shrugged and said that he got my art DNA. I swear that I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler!!!!!

Anyway...I'm game, if you can remember that far into the future!

I kinda of liked the pizza boxes.

I have 3 more build I want to accomplish this winter. The first is a new wave old school A traditional foam blank has a basswood stringer down the middle. When manufactured, the foam is cut down the middle and then glued back together with the wooden stringer down the middle.

The stringer is what gives the PolyU board is quality ride, IMO. Without the stringer the board would be lifeless.

In building the various compsands I've been very pleased with the perimeter stringer arrangements, although not 100% thrilled.

Weighting the rails with heavier foam and putting the ridgitity out on the rails to prevent the rails from twisting off was at least one of the advances I was pleased with.

Sooo...I decided to capitalize on both of those concepts with a wood stringer and heavier weight foam. I forgot to take any build photos, but I cut the wood and d-cell using the hotwire template for the bottom rocker. In the bag cooking if you look closely you can see the 1# eps center, 1/8" wood stringer and 1/2" d-cell rail.

New wave, old school:

I also have three ideas that I to try some time, but not right away, I have to traditional blanks to work on. The first is a twin rail, but instead of putting the rails on the outside, place them on line with the fins. I’ve seen two and three rail designs. I’d like to build the rails so they start inline with the fins and arc to the nose.

Second is extremely large closed cell foam. A spherical cell is a really strong structure. This structure has the theoretically best strength to weight ratio. Closed cells also provide resistance to water absorption. The concept is to build a foam core with very large cells surrounded with small cells. I do something like build a matrix of ping pong balls then inject polyurethane between the large closed cells. If you could build a sausage like structure and surround it with polyU that might work too but I’m not sure how you’d build it. Maybe character balloons inflated while polyU is injected and then removed.

Last, I’d like to build something like the balsa board that I built but with fiberglass tube stringers. I’d start by cutting lateral stringers like I did for the balsa board. Then insert the fiberglass tubes in drilled out lateral stringers. This approach would reduce the effort needed to cut the lateral stringers, but I’d have to figure out how to make fiberglass tubes. I’d run thin strips of foam or wood between the lateral stringers.

Here's a slide show of the build.

http://www.wakeboardmidwest.com/forumsthreaddefault.aspx?itemid=4726