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Old     (parkcityxj)      Join Date: Mar 2001       08-26-2005, 7:07 PM Reply   
So, I've gotten pretty good at wakesurfing decided to enter a comp. Well, the port side wake was massive and sick but the starboard side was abosolutly unrideable! Not one person was able to ride w/out the rope, us goofies felt robbed.. There were eleven people on the boat, tried all sorts of weight configurations too. We had both stock tanks full in the back + 500 in the rear locker + 500 behind the drver, center 1/2 full and everybody on the starboard side and mess around more w/the ballast. We had people go up front, move around, etc. No matter what the wake was complete whitewash! I've surfed on tons of boats on the starboard side and have never ever been on an unsurfable wake.. WTF!! Too much weight or what? Like I said the port side was massive. I find it hard to believe that it couldn't be done.
Old     (lambertn)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-27-2005, 10:51 AM Reply   
Hey Jay,
did you try playing with the speed. i've found that with the xstar i normally ride about 11 but if im packing on the ballasts its more like 12 or 13. i'd also try just weighting the side your on, particularly on the back if you get a person to sit right on the edge just by the swim dock it can make a huge difference. . be careful with lots of weight in the boat. we had our ballast tanks full and then filled gas and nearly sunk our boat...whoops.
best of luck.
speed adjustment will normally clean up the wake.
Old     (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       08-27-2005, 6:29 PM Reply   
Why do you need all of that ballast, must be a Mastercraft thing? We ride the wake behind my boat port and starboard sides, with stock ballast and a crew of three, (two in the boat and one on the wake).

The wake is better on the starboard side with the wake plate 100% down, but better on the port side when set to 0%. I don’t know if the X has a wake plate or not, or if my wake plate trick work on a MC.
Old     (parkcityxj)      Join Date: Mar 2001       08-27-2005, 7:56 PM Reply   
This was a wakesurf comp and it wasn't my boat. We messed around w/the weight for about 20 min. trying to get it dialed in but it didn't happed, we messed w/speed too. MC's don't have a wakeplate, but I know on other boats wakeplates help out quite a bit getting the surf wake dialed in.

They were supposed to pull the goofy riders w/a SAN but some stupid reason they decided not to use it.
Old     (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       08-28-2005, 4:10 PM Reply   
It is imperative that any wakesurf competition be able to produce a similar wake on both sides of the boat. If they cannot do it behind their brand name boat, they need to bring in another boat.
Old     (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       08-28-2005, 4:45 PM Reply   
The SAN should have been awesome for goofy.
Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-28-2005, 7:14 PM Reply   
Hey Larry tell me something, in the smaller grassroots competitions, most clubs are going to get a demo boat from a local dealer. Certainly at a BIGGER competition, say where the boat manufacturer is represented, it would be feasible to have a different boat, but for the small guys, it isn't going to happen. I'd guess that the majority of folks are regular footed, so how can a local club make allowances for a "lesser" quality wake for goofy footed riders? What, in your opinion, would be fair?
Old    ryde4life            08-29-2005, 10:15 AM Reply   
I agree with you 100% Jeff on the smaller tournaments vs the larger manufactuer supported tournaments. Just look at Boardstock and the Centurion Wake Surf event. They had an boat set-up for regular and a boat for goofy. The goofy boat had a counter rotation tranny and prop and the wake looked great. I am a goofy rider and hope that Centurion offers the counter rotation as an option or something.
Old     (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       08-29-2005, 5:41 PM Reply   
Yes, the majority of riders are regular footed; but I estimate that about 1/3 are goofy. Please consider that some of the world's best ocean surfers ride goofy footed. For another discussion on regular vs. goofy that states it may be 60/40 regular/goofy, please go to:

ANY wake surf competition discussion that relegates the goofy riders to an ignored minority reminds me of Catholic nuns rapping left handed students with a ruler to get the devil out of them.

There are many boats that produce a good wave on both sides, many that are good for only one side, and probably many more that are worthless for surfing. Please go to the Wake World discussion on goofy boat waves:

If someone is going to host a competition, we would hope they know more than 1 person with a boat they can use. If not, hopefully one of the goofy footed competitors could bring their boat. If they cannot get the necessary boats, then they should call it a regular footed competition or a goofy footed competition, or not bother!

According to RL Cross, the Centurion competition had boats with equal waves on both sides. If so, that is a welcome change from previous Centurion events. I personally am not happy being told to learn to ride on the other side.

The more we demand from the boat manufacturers, the better the waves will get. I wouldn’t buy a boat that is only capable of a one side surf wave. Of course the ideal situation is a boat that produces a great wave on both sides simultaneously (can it be done?).

While we are on this discussion, it is evident that skim style boards will out-score surf style boards in competition. There are some who think that is not fair. Jeff, RL, any one else, what do you think?
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       08-29-2005, 6:48 PM Reply   
I agree that you cannot force goofy riders to compete on an wake that inferior is not in the realm of sportsmanship. I also agree that skim style must have a separate class. They could call it wakeskimming. How can a judge decide which trick is harder and deserving more points without being biased one way or another. I think that surfing breaksdown to long board and short board don't they. A boat that would produce an equal wake on both sides at the same time would be awesome.
Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-29-2005, 7:50 PM Reply   
You Goofy riders! :-) My family and I spent the better part of the summer attending small grassroots competitions all over this country. First off Larry, I want to go back to my original question. It dealt ONLY with grassroots competitions. We're talking about a group of neighbors that gather for a day of fun and typically a BBQ at the end of it all. The biggest prize is the bragging rights come next weekend. I kid you not, typically the ballast is the group of hottest girls in bikini's or the coolers with beer. As for your contention "not bother". I think that is folly for both the sport as well as these small competitions. As I have told you before, everyone is welcome. I would hope that we can all agree on that, right? I can't even imagine going to Tom Regan in Makato, MN and telling him...your goofy wake is inferior, change the name or you really shouldn't hold the competition! :-) Further, I'm not sure you resolve the underlying question by bringing in a different boat, then a regular rider complains the goofy wake is better. To me, the more folks that are exposed to the sport, the greater will be the industry support, as well as, growth for the sport in general. I would FULLY agree with you for national, state-wide competitions, or regional events, make the playing field level.

At the World's this year Centurion did an excellent job. They had identical boats, but the props rotated differently and from MY perspective there was no difference in the wake size or shape. This is a perfect venue for this sort of identical wakes. Centurion bills their competition as "world championship" and there is money involved. Here, make 'em identical.

Again I go back to my original question, from a small grassroots competition, where the BUYING PUBLIC is...what becomes the most fair thing to do, or do we just say: You know it's in good fun anyway, do whatever you want? I'm looking for something better than that, which will also be reflective of the reality of those sorts of contests.

As for skimboards vs surfboards, in my opinion it really only matters in the largest of competitions. Let's be honest, at the world's the skimboarders that come in there ride behind a boat for a day and then go back to the beach. They are NOT reflective of the sport as a whole. Move away from either coast and people look at you funny when you mention skimboarding vs surfboards. In fact, in Iowa, a wakesurfboard is "typically" limited to a hyperlite broadcast because that manufacturer has the distrubtion channels in place. That's just the reality of business at this point.

In amatuer events, IMHO, let the best rider ride whatever they want. Let the sport flourish, if you are that serious a competitor and you're losing to skimboarders, you'll learn to ride new equipment. For the bigger competitions, like say the World's. I can't see how you can comparatively judge a floater on a 6'2" shortboard against a pop shuv-it on a skimboard. I would think, in time, we will see that evolution. For now, I think our focus as members in this sport is to grow it, not look for ways to restrict the growth.

Oh! and Dennis, you're not getting ANY wake time for your goofy riding now! :-)

Larry, I certainly appreciate your advocay of goofy footers. It doesn't fall on deaf ears, I would think at this stage of the sport we need more riders PERIOD, more smalltown local competions, that will in turn drive more interest in the sport and cause manufacturers to pay attention.

You understand my point of view, I want more folks involved.
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       08-29-2005, 10:45 PM Reply   
OUCH that hurts. And I thought you were open minded LOL When you say goofy riding are you talking about the blue hat?
Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-30-2005, 5:19 AM Reply   
Hey Dennis, goofy riding is wearing a blue hat on a big yellow banana board! :-) Make your choice! One or the other. :-)
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       08-30-2005, 5:17 PM Reply   
Hey Jeff,
Is this a fashion police thing? Will it matter if I wear my Orange board shorts? It's all about the ride isn't it?
Old    ryde4life            08-31-2005, 10:30 AM Reply   
1/3 of ocean surfers are goofy riders. I would agree with that. I would actually say slightly more. But in a local wakesurf comp if a regular foot boat is all that is there they have to suck it up and ride backside. I am a goofy foot rider and have NO problem at all riding backside. I actually prefer it.

In the mighty ocean blue surf competitions surfers cannot pick what direction the wave is going to go. Just look at the Pipeline Classic. Regular foot riders have to ride backside.

Pretty much wakesurfing is still so in the developmental stage and growing. Should Skim and Surf be separate...sure, why not. Thats for the organizers of the events to determine but I personally as both a surfer and a skimboarder like to see them together.
Old     (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       09-01-2005, 5:58 AM Reply   
If someone is organizing a competition, they need to state clearly in the announcement, what boat/s and wake/s they intend to produce. That way there are no surprises when the regular footed riders show up from hours away only to find a Nautique and a goofy wave.

As we get better, individually and collectively, riding both sides of the wake should get easier. I wonder how well Drew Danellio can ride goofy; would he continue to excel or would his ride suffer.

The waves in ocean surfing competition are not the same. Judges take into account the quality of the wave a rider had when scoring that rider. They can do the same in wake surfing if the regular and goofy wave are not exact.

If a competition has 2 separate categories, longboard and skim, the competition takes longer, the awards ceremony takes longer, and there needs to be twice as many awards and prizes. This is a dilemma for both small grassroots competition and large national events.

Here is MY opinion: Just one category, Wakesurfing.

Let’s say a 360 is worth a maximum of 10 points. I do it on my Surf Skate. The judge might think, nice trick but easy on that board so I am awarded 6 points. Someone else does it on another board but does it with great style and flair, the judge may award 8 points. Then another rider does it on a longboard. Knowing it is more difficult on a longboard, the judge may award 10 points.

Let’s say a 720 is worth a maximum of 25 points. I do it on my Surf Skate. The judge might think, difficult trick, so-so form, and award me 20 points. Then someone does a 720 on a longboard. The judge thinks, that was totally awesome. He awards 25 points plus gives a bonus of 10 points because it was such an incredible trick.

In other words, judging can apply a “handicap” for the complexity of the trick, taking the board and the quality of the wave into account.

In wakeboarding, competition was initially on single tip boards. Then one day, the twin tipped board was introduced and blew everyone away in competition. They do not have 2 categories of competition in wakeboarding. If someone wants to compete on an old single tip Skurfer, they can, but they are unlikely to score well. Same is true for snow boarding.

In wakesurfing competition, the rider should ride whatever they want. They just need to consider, the next competitor on a more trick capable board will have an advantage over them. If all we do is surf up and down the face of the wave, even with style and flair, the sport will be boring. When we have the likes of Drew Danielo doing Board Transfer 180s, we excite more people to want to wake surf and the sport and the competition grows.
Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-01-2005, 8:13 AM Reply   
Larry, you make a great point regarding tricks. The bottom line is that a big spin on a skim style board is more difficult than a bottom turn on a longer surf style board. Conversly, an aerial 3 on a surf style board is more difficult than a fire hydrant of a skim style board.

However, the rider has free will in choosing the board he wishes to ride. If the focus of the rider is to win competitions, he or she will choose the board that allows him/her to perform the greatest number of tricks with the most control. There are tricks that can be perfomed on a surfboard that simply can't be done on a skim style board and vice versa.

As I type this, I see myself underdeveloped riding backside. I would NEVER make it as an ocean surfer. In wakeboarding, a half cab is scored higher than a 180, it would seem to me that in my next competition I could ride frontside in one direction and then backside on the second pass. In wakeboarding if you can only jump heelside, you score less than the individual who can ALSO jump toeside. Using that logic, the rider who can't ride switch scores less than the individual who does it with aplomb.

I would think, as the sport progresses, we'll see folks showing total command of their riding style regular and switch, frontside and backside and THAT will be the person that consistently wins, because they are a better overall rider.

Great concepts Larry! You always keep us thinking.

Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-04-2005, 5:55 AM Reply   
This post will eventuallylead into my asking Dennis, Larry and RL about judging a local contest.

Yesterday, my son was riding the 6'2" board we shaped for Dennis. This board, realtively speaking, is a LONG BOARD for James at 130 and 5'2" tall. He was walking the board and got close to hanging 5. I'm sure with practice he would be successful.

Now on his little 4'4" shortboard he's accomplished an aerial 180 and is working on an aerial 3.

In a local competition, I could see someone accomplished riding a longboard behind a boat and winning, by walking the board, hanging 5, maybe even a quick 10...against a skimboard who is only able to do top and bottom turns or who completes some spins, but is out of control.

In the competitions we attended this summer, more often than not the most innovative trick was a 360 and I think that James was the only one that consistently landed them in competitions, he now has 3 versions an ollie 360, dragging a hand and a sweet stalled 3.

Folks in Iowa had never seen an ollie 3 or the stalled 3 and so had really had no idea how to judge it, one else in that contest even attempted a the point was moot there.

As folks progress in the sport I can see the bar being raised in these local competitions and with the potential for three distinct riding styles developing (long board, shortboard and skim style) and with the relatively inexperienced judging staff available, what makes the most sense in scoring a local contest?

is it best to leave it realtively vague with criteria like 1/3 to style, 1/3 to technical difficulty and 1/3 to amplitude or should sanctioning bodies attempt to codify specific tricks ie surface 360 skim style 100, surface 360 surf style 200 surface 360 longboard 400?

To me, if it's left subjective, where the judges just rate the rider based upon how they feel it looked rather than trying to list every trick with an assigned point value for all three styles of riding, we are better served. Plus I think it would allow the sport to evolve more easily.

Larry, Dennis, RL, what are your thoughts on this scoring issue, please?

Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       09-04-2005, 9:00 PM Reply   
I think that a judge without experience riding and attempting these tricks would have a very difficult time quantifying which trick is harder and deserving of a better score. Ideally a judge for each type of board with experience on that equipment could judge without a point list. With a point value riders could plan their ride based on the score for a list of tricks. Having watched James ride a few times I would have to say that each 3 would have to be worth different amounts, but which would be worth more. How do they judge wakeboarding contests? As I talked yesterday there might have to be different levels of competitions ( national or regional) Regional would be more subjective as you discussed above while National might have to be less subjective and more point value type rating. I also think age should be a factor giving riders over 50 more points just for showing up. Over 50 and goofy foot double points just because of the harassment we have to take. LOL
Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-05-2005, 6:27 AM Reply   
Hey Dennis, I would agree with you that the ideal situation for judging would be experienced folks, but again, in these small local competitions, you simply aren't going to find that. Partly the sport is so new, but also, once you go inland a few miles from any of the coasts, no one has EVER heard of a skimboard, yet alone something like a big spin.

I guess to me, while this sport is so dynamic in it's infancy, you almost have to allow for some subjectivity. Which rider performs the most tricks in the alloted time or space with the most control. Perhaps with some general guidance, lik riding backside is harder than frontside. Anything in the air is harder than the same trick on the surface.

In wakeboarding there is a definitive list and points assigned for most contests. In fact, they are broken down into beginner, intermediate, etc. I can imagine one day, this will be true for wakesurfing, but for the time being, it feels like allowing for subjectivity and the resultant "I was robbed" will permit the local grassroots competitions to grow in number. I think if there is too much in the way of formality it will just become too cumbersome to hold such a contest.

What are your thoughts on this Dennis? Realistically, if we say, we have to start somewhere, in your opinion, do you feel that more regulation or administration would be better at the onset or worse?

As for over 50 and goofy footed I have heard numerous folks suggest that they be allowed to compete in a separate area of the lake, the usual suggested venue is the parking lot. :-) Too funny.
Old    tige_kid            09-05-2005, 3:13 PM Reply   
wow, is this becoming a competition to see who can leave the biggest post! Jk, Lol
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       09-05-2005, 5:57 PM Reply   
Like I said in regional or grassroots competitions let the judging be very subjective and not to formal. I could see where someone lands a 3 and nothing else and wins on points that would be a shame. For the near future maybe National events would be more structured with more experienced judges and such. I think that the guideline idea would offer some consistency to smaller meets. I would think that the guideline would also serve to show what tricks are outthere for people new to the sport, so they know there is more than just crusing. OK another short post done.
Old     (niap101)      Join Date: Jul 2004       09-06-2005, 4:39 AM Reply   
I believe guidelines are necessary; the point value established by consensus of experienced riders. The trick's point value though is only part of the score, the others being style, amplitude, conditions, etc. The more varied tricks the rider does in their run, the higher the scoring as opposed to someone with limited number of tricks.
Since competition is in part, a spectator sport, what about dividing the run into thirds? One third of the course, in front of the crowd, scoring bonus points. That way, riders are encouraged to do more in front of the spectators.
Old    ryde4life            09-06-2005, 1:39 PM Reply   
(Sarcastic) yeah, lets create another Trick Ski Event.

I like how it is now....for now. Separate Surf and Skim ultimatly is the goal but as I said before not yet. But I like the subjective scoring...just like surfing and wakeboarding. I also like the idea of having the judges in MAJOR comps to be one of each trade (Skim, Surf, Wake, and so on). Have specific catagorys that each judge should be looking for and then give a score at the end. SIMPLE! No need for points, if they actually did the trick properly, and trick sheets, declaired trick lists, and so on. See where I am going with this?

If wake Surfing was going to be like trick skiing count me out. I love trick skiing but would never compete in it again because of all the BS involved with it. I can see the protests at events now because they did not get credit for a 360 shuvit. Oh wait now we will get video scoring like that have at water ski tournaments. Great...just another thing.

I am sorry guys but you have to keep it simple if you want more people involved. Look at wakeboarding....kept it simple for years and still is.
Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-06-2005, 2:24 PM Reply   
Hey RL, Larry created a separate thread for this, so if you don't mind, I'll just cut and paste your response to that thread.


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