Why not diesel?

With all this talk about wake and weight and killing your gas guzzling engine how come nobody has come out with a diesel engine for a wakeboard boat? It would have plenty of torque to pull any amount of weight and it is easy to put performance upgrades on them. There could be some obvious reasons im not thinking of but it seems that if you want a boat just for wakeboarding designed to make a monster wake with thousands of pounds added on to your boat it seems like diesel would be a no brainer. Trucks for example if you are specifically towing you want a diesel. Maybe we could get a cummins in a nautique???

P.S. When this works can someone throw a boat my way because god knows i cant afford a real wakeboard boat

Malibu had one at the Surf Expo with a 3.0L V6 Diesel in it that I saw pictures of. Here's the engine it has:
http://www.hyundaiseasallusa.com/S250_Engine.php

Here you go, stole this from thtrog

Hell we can't even get a light duty SUV with a diesel!

Originally Posted by srock

Hell we can't even get a light duty SUV with a diesel!

We Do!

07-09 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0L V6 Diesel

I have an 07, best purchase I have made to date!

If only they would have continued it into the new body style

Tim- maybe not from the factory, but there are places that will do full conversions for you or you can buy turn key models.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yVrk...eature=related

It might happen some day.
http://www.banksmarine.com/

personally i just think listening to a turbo spool on your boat would be so awesome... not to mention the other perks of diesel

I think malibu is on to something but i would really like to see a big boat manufacturer such as nautique or mastercraft partner up with a reliable diesel company like cummins, powerstroke, or duramax...obviously cummins has the edge in marine diesel but your run of the mill plow truck (im from connecticut where it snows) is of the international brand and they were partnered with powerstroke up until a few years ago i think it would be cool to see the same with boats and not to mentions extremely progressive

Originally Posted by hyperlite_boards

I think malibu is on to something but i would really like to see a big boat manufacturer such as nautique or mastercraft partner up with a reliable diesel company like cummins, powerstroke, or duramax...obviously cummins has the edge in marine diesel but your run of the mill plow truck (im from connecticut where it snows) is of the international brand and they were partnered with powerstroke up until a few years ago i think it would be cool to see the same with boats and not to mentions extremely progressive

Malibu is not a big boat manufacturer. Please tell me that you are not that ignorant and that you are just kidding.

That we can forgive for the "off the reservation" comment you just made

Didn't Mastercraft toy around with a VW engine? Diesel engines are fairly common in marine applications but you do have to give consideration to the additional upfront and ongoing costs. The difference in efficiency only goes so far based on most consumers limited use of recreational wakeboard and ski boats. Most people would not use the boat enough to make up the difference in price.

i wasnt saying malibu is a big manufacturer in the boat world i was saying its good they are toying with the idea...as far as engines go vw and hyundai are not known for having raw diesel power like ford or gm.

The inboard diesel for wakesports will be sourced from one of the current inboard diesel offerings. There are a bunch of motors already out there, and they would be plug and play marine ready. It wouldn't make since to marine duty a current truck offering. Why reinvent the wheel, when just putting a diesel in would be huge step?

Brett, That's what I need. Anything is possible when you drop some coin. Unfortunately when it does come it will be a monster suburban or expedition.

You got that right Tim. Anything is possible if you got the dough.

I think Hyundai is a reliable name in the industrial world.

Originally Posted by timmyb

I think Hyundai is a reliable name in the industrial world.

not sure if this was sarcasm or not, but most are surprised (including me) to learn that the duramax engines are built by Isuzu.

itll happen soon enough.

I would love a diesel engine in my nauti only negative thing i see is getting gas on the lake. The lakes we go to dont offer that at the dock and it would be a pain to have to pull it out and go get gas !!

as far as engines go vw and hyundai are not known for having raw diesel power like ford or gm

Yeah, but they don't burn nearly as much fuel either.

I would be interested in an inboard with a 7.3. The thing is I'm not rich and I'll never have a brand new boat, so what I might be interested in is irrelevant. I would guess turbos in small boats is an issue involving more complexity and expense due to wet exhaust and heat issues. Bottom line though, diesels are expensive. If the 454 ever dies in my Saltare I would consider replacing it with a 7.3. More than likely though I'd end up building a Ford 460 based 545 stroker to replace it. A vdrive conversion would be cool, but I wouldn't do that unless the stringers ever rot out and I had to do those. Even then it would be a fair amount of work, but as good a time as any to change to a diesel.

If they ever do start making them they'll be way out of reach of the everyday Joe. I don't see Moomba or Axis, which are still freakin' expensive, having a diesel option anytime soon. I would be curious to see GPH numbers on diesels at 21-23 MPH loaded down vs current gas offerings along with price premium vs. a typical big block gas engine. With that we could calculate how long it would take to pay for itself. I'd guess it would be longer than your average person in the market for a brand new wake boat would own that boat, and thus not worth the money for that demographic. Secondhand buyers like myself that may keep boats a lot longer would likely see a overall savings from lower fuel consumption but what people in the used market want won't affect what gets ordered by new boat buyers who may have the boat a few years at most, typically. I think bottom line is if you want a diesel in a towboat you'll be doing it yourself converting whatever you have.

The direction prices are headed, whats another 10 grand on a 85000 wake boat. You should get that back in resale. Many of the marine diesels people think about are a heavy and sizable chunk of iron for the required performance.

MC has used diesels for years. The problem is price as the VW turbo was a $30k option and 99% of them were purchased for over seas use. The 300 runs diesels. With the partnering of Ilmor, they currently have a one off diesel being developed and maybe that will a much more less expensive option sooner than later.

The other issue is just that diesel isn't offered at many inland lakes.

I think transom would get black and ruin a lot of good towels

You guys that keep talking about Duramax, Powerstroke and Cummins crack me up. Those are truck engines, not boat engines! There are plenty of diesels in boats around the world that have proven marine reliability and they aren't from Chevy, Ford or Dodge trucks!

Originally Posted by timmyb

You guys that keep talking about Duramax, Powerstroke and Cummins crack me up. Those are truck engines, not boat engines! There are plenty of diesels in boats around the world that have proven marine reliability and they aren't from Chevy, Ford or Dodge trucks!

not so fast, ace.

http://www.proboat.com/gm-duramax-power.html

that is the key around the world, not so much in the US. Americans do not buy diesels because we are not feed diesel as being a solution. we Americans for the most part are dumb and buy into hype and commercials. they feed us electric cars and advancing technology in electric and hydrogen. now i do believe that we should still explore these technologies but we have the ability to produce a car with a diesel engine that will do over 50mpg or a light duty diesel truck that could get 30-35mpg. bio-diesel can be made by just about anything these days but if Americans will not buy them why manufacture them? they feed us batteries that cost thousands to replace and only get 40mpg. they make their money off the lithium production. why do you think we are in Afghanistan? lithium, not oil.
im done ranting now

I'm with you Rusty!

How many thousands of those do they have in service? I'm talking about companies like Yanmar and Volvo. I guess Cummins probably has a lot out there too. What I'm not referring to is converting the truck engines that the common US folks know and love into marine versions.

Originally Posted by timmyb

How many thousands of those do they have in service? I'm talking about companies like Yanmar and Volvo. I guess Cummins probably has a lot out there too. What I'm not referring to is converting the truck engines that the common US folks know and love into marine versions.

hahaha. almost every engine that Indmar, Mercruiser, Ilmoor, Volvo and PCM gets is a GM engine that was formerly used in trucks. those marinizers get them, slap a different cam and ECM on them to achieve certain power numbers, dress them up with their logos, then distribute them to the boat companies.

Here is a list of whom sources those engines directly from GM:
http://www.gmpowertrain.com/MarineEn...EMListing.aspx

Here is a list of the base engines that we are all riding behind today:
http://www.gmpowertrain.com/MarineEn...Portfolio.aspx

Marine applications are very similar to truck applications. All the gas engines that have been commonly used in boats are just automotive engines with marine carb and ignition, wet exhaust, and gaskets better suited to a marine environment. Nothing fancy going on in any of them. On the Ford side, the 351w started as a cost effective replacement for the the small displacement big blocks like the 352. The 460 started as a 429, high performance car engine and later was used in trucks. On the Chevy side the 350 was just a larger displacement version of their existing small blocks, used in cars and trucks. The 454 platform started as a performance car engine, and later was used in trucks. There's nothing fancy or special about any of these engines, nor is there anything fancy or special about the marinized versions.

There's no reason any of the common truck diesels would have any issues in a boat, and it wouldn't be that big a deal to convert a boat. Take the 6.9/7.3 for example. The IDI engines are very simple and don't take much to run. Bellhousing and coupling parts can be off the shelf 460 to velvet drive parts, just machined for the different bolt pattern of the diesels (same bell shape). You might have to modify some mounts or make some, but that's not a big deal for anyone who would be considering a diesel swap. Exhaust would likely be custom. There were some marinized 7.3 diesels but good luck finding parts, especially wear items like manifolds and risers. Not sure the port spacing but if close to any other engine it would be cheap and easy to have a set of manifold adaptors made to convert to a standard Ford or Chevy wet manifold pattern, so that's an option. Running a turbo could be a problem with heat in a small engine compartment but is doable. The turbo would add the most complexity, aside from that it wouldn't be much different from any other engine swap.

Single pod drive is the ticket. I would prefer the Volvo IPS over the Zeus I am sure VP will the software ready for this using a D-4 by next year.
Perfect for the new X star.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwifTpXco4

I've got a couple Volvo marine diesels and the parts are outrageously priced.

Why are you guys throwing out gas engine stats? tdc_worm wants to reinvent the wheel when there's an entire marine diesel industry already out there with plenty of offerings that will drop right into these boats. What I'm trying to say is stop looking at what you can relate to (American Auto Mfr's) and start looking at the World. I'm guessing that recreational boats in the US are probably the largest marine consumer of GAS engines but everything else in the world is DIESEL. If you're all stuck on the Cummins, Duramax, Powerstroke truck engine bandwagon, then so be it. They are cool engines and makes tons of power (love mine) but they are already a $10k option in a truck, how much do you think it would be in a boat? $40k?

Go out there and do your google homework on marine diesels, there's some really cool stuff out there! Just keep an open mind! I had no idea that John Deere has a marine division, pretty sweet! How about Cat? They have engines from 250 hp up to 21,475 - just guessing that they are a little more proven than any Duramax or Powerstroke conversion! Will they all fit in a wakeboat? LOL! Probably not as I'm sure some of them are bigger than the actual boat!

I'll let you guys go ahead and keep trying to convince me that the converted truck engines are a better choice.

Is it really about peak horsepower with a diesel? You don't need equivalent hp in a diesel as you do in a gas engine to achieve similar performance.

I think a lot of people are missing the point.

Remember diesels will suffer more from lack of use that a gas engine which is a big consideration with recreational boats. Trust me I would run diesel in my boat and houseboat (potential with the next haul/refit???) but I don't think most recreational boats are run enough to ever realize the advantages or overcome the initial and increased maintenance costs.

Originally Posted by timmyb

Why are you guys throwing out gas engine stats? tdc_worm wants to reinvent the wheel when there's an entire marine diesel industry already out there with plenty of offerings that will drop right into these boats. What I'm trying to say is stop looking at what you can relate to (American Auto Mfr's) and start looking at the World. I'm guessing that recreational boats in the US are probably the largest marine consumer of GAS engines but everything else in the world is DIESEL. If you're all stuck on the Cummins, Duramax, Powerstroke truck engine bandwagon, then so be it. They are cool engines and makes tons of power (love mine) but they are already a $10k option in a truck, how much do you think it would be in a boat? $40k?

Go out there and do your google homework on marine diesels, there's some really cool stuff out there! Just keep an open mind! I had no idea that John Deere has a marine division, pretty sweet! How about Cat? They have engines from 250 hp up to 21,475 - just guessing that they are a little more proven than any Duramax or Powerstroke conversion! Will they all fit in a wakeboat? LOL! Probably not as I'm sure some of them are bigger than the actual boat!

I'll let you guys go ahead and keep trying to convince me that the converted truck engines are a better choice.

okay...i misread your comment to say that "current boat engines are not from trucks." got me there. to that end...i am not trying to reinvent the wheel. i suspect (read "i havent done the research") that volvo penta does not make those engines...they source them from the manufacturer and then marinize them. their gas offerings are confirmed in one of links i listed above.

i think we are in violent agreement: boat builders (commerical aside) do not build engines. it would be less profitable to do so than to source them from the non-marine market...no reason to reinvent the wheel. as it stands now, your compact, vdrive market is constrained by the big block and small block gm bellhousing design for the transmissions. that is easy to overcome, but isnt something that can be overlooked when thinking of using a diesel engine with current offerings...

Originally Posted by timmyb

If you're all stuck on the Cummins, Duramax, Powerstroke truck engine bandwagon, then so be it. They are cool engines and makes tons of power (love mine) but they are already a $10k option in a truck, how much do you think it would be in a boat? $40k?

This is the point, at least my point. I'm not rich, but I do all work on my toys myself. Building engines, transmissions, body work, fiberglass work, etc. Most rich people that are buying new boats don't know how to do all this stuff, or don't have any desire to do it themselves. These are the same people that might think a diesel would be nice to save some fuel costs, but it isn't critical. Until there is a big push from the rich folks that buy new wake boats to have diesel options, there will be no mainstream diesel offerings. It doesn't matter what us second hand buyers want, it won't have any bearing on what the factory puts out since we're buying boats anywhere 5 or more years old. Heck, my boat is 22 years old.

To me, $10k vs $40k is a huge difference. A $10k engine I can do, $40k just isn't gonna happen for a toy. I look at it this way, if my 454 dies I can rebuild it for maybe $2500 and do a couple performance improvements while I'm at it. I could convert to big block Ford power and do a really nice 460 based engine that would put the 454 to shame and buy all I need to do the concersion for under $4000. That would likely be my top choice.

For a bit more than that I could probably do a 7.3 IDI if I find a good used engine to freshen up. Most of the cost would be into custom exhaust (turbo) which would likely be a couple thousand. If I got lucky and port spacing on 7.3 and 454 or 460 engines are close I could have a set of adapter plates made for a couple hundred and run off the shelf 454 or 460 exhaust parts with some creativity and keeping it dry at the turbo. Not really rocket science. Basically cost of the conversion comes down to how much custom work that I can't do goes into the exhaust as the major expense, and the misc other parts that might need machine work. Brackets, mounts, and stupid stuff like that is easy to make at home. I'd wager I could do a 7.3 conversion for less than your average boat shop would charge just to pull the beat 454 and drop in a crate engine, align, test, etc.

The point is, if there are going to be any diesel wake boats anytime soon it's gonna be do it yourself guys doing these swaps for a fraction of the cost of a new boat or what a shop would charge. "Go buy a $40k crate diesel" doesn't apply here, and I think adding $30k to the price of a new wake boat that's already at $70k-$100k would be asking a lot of the people who buy these things, as they wouldn't be likely to save $30k in fuel in the 3-6 years they might own it.

You are correct tdc, we can definitely agree that the boat mfr shouldn't be building engines! Let's just hope they start trying out a few more diesel options for folks! I know it's a Hyundai above but it's a start!

Not sarcasm at all. I think most people that have a Duramax and are on the internet know that Duramax is an Isuzu/GM joint venture.

gotcha- I just remember hearing it for the first time and was surprised.

A diesel is a great idea. But they are still selling 60k+ boats with GEN-I SBC's...and that's what most of them are sold with unless you pay big bucks to option out a motor that should be standard to begin with. Until they can finally get away from that there is no way they are going to progress further into diesels as a common place option.

Well sure, anytime you are talking about do it yourself projects the price is going to be lower!

How much more does a 7.3 weigh than the 454? I know the 7.3 is about 1,000 lbs. What's a 454 Chevy? 700 fully dressed? Guess it would be extra ballast.

Originally Posted by timmyb

Well sure, anytime you are talking about do it yourself projects the price is going to be lower!

How much more does a 7.3 weigh than the 454? I know the 7.3 is about 1,000 lbs. What's a 454 Chevy? 700 fully dressed? Guess it would be extra ballast.

Do you need a 7.3 to address the needs for wakeboarding? Or is there opportunity to use a smaller diesel with similar torque? A smaller diesel can usually supply equivalent torque numbers with less horsepower. Isn't torque more important for wakeboarding than horsepower? Asked previously but not answered.

There are plenty of marine diesels on the market already with decades of R&D. Even from the engines used by the big 3 mentioned above:
Duramax: http://www.banksmarine.com/
Cummins: http://www.cmdmarine.com/ and several other companies use cummins engines.
Powerstroke was previously used by mercruiser but I do not believe that partnership exists anymore.

As I previously stated Mastercraft has offered VW diesels as a $30K option and are going to offer Mercruiser-Cummins on some new boat. Looks like Tige is looking into this as well.

This site is a good resource on marine diesels if anyone is interested in doing a swap. There are several ski/wake boats that have had DIY diesel swaps.

7.3 is about 1,000-1,100 lbs
454 is about 650-700lbs

I think he was saying 7.3L for costs as a DIY project. Can probably pick up a 7.3L Powerstroke for a lot less than an old Cummins 6 but maybe not some of those 4's they used in bread vans and such.

Doesn't Isuzu and GM share a model of the duramax? Used box trucks can be found on the cheap. Guessing that would be the cheapest and most common diesel found readily for this kind of project.