Company wake

They only had a problem with there bi Levels... but they also had a full line of flat decks aswell

that's not true--cassette had board issues in 04. 05 needed to be a good year and it didn't work out.

Any word on when this will be settled?

Oh man... knowing the courts this could take FOREVER. Hopefully it'll be resolved long before that comes. Cheers to Ronix and Company.

Marc Roissiter to sign with ronix... can anyone confirm that?

LF is and will always be a top competitor in wake product. But they just dont want other companies becoming as big. Now that wakeboarding as a sport and as a design, is reaching new heights. This all makes sense. Meijer hates Walmart. LF will soon hate someone.

Originally Posted by nickbot

it doesn't matter if LF had the "idea" first...they were the first to successfully "patent" the idea.
Company and Ronix could have done a patent search, concluded that they were in violation, and "designed around" LF's patent...or proposed some sort of license agreement...but, the didn't...not a smart business move on their part. Either they didn't know enough to do this, didn't have a good enough lawyer to understand what to do, or didn't care and figured LF wouldn't care either.
everyone quit your BS whining...If the legal system finds that Company is indeed in violation, they will need to pay the consequences. If they means they go out of business, tough shizz. justin may be a nice guy...but, he also may be a bad business man...anyone remember casette??

Thats a pretty ignorant statement, the patent was issued in August of 2010 and I would bet a large sum of money that Motion had this patent flying under the radar since day one. Now think about what's going on behind the scenes at Company and Ronix in August of 2010, the designs for the 2011 bindings were approved months ago, funds have been allocated and production has already began on the 2011 line. Motion and their lawyers are not dumb, they planned to spring this lawsuit on them when these brands were most vulnerable.

Now what pisses me off about the situation is it appears that Motion is taking the greedy route to this. Don't get me wrong I am 100% for patents and protecting them, but this is going to polarize the industry in a terrible way. I highly doubt Motion offered a reasonable licensing proposal if at all and doesn't want Ronix and Company making a binding that is clearly superior to the junk they've made that past few years and guess who is going to be indirectly funding this lawsuit, we are! A lawsuit like this can effortlessly hit over 1M in combined court fees of all the parties and if you think about how small this wakeboard mfg industry is, that's a pretty big chunk of change.

I've lost a lot of respect for a company whose product I really enjoy after reading this.

Anything kent=bad. This coming from a guy who only rode hyperlite and accurate for years. When and why the obriens left jaded me totally. 99% of riders don't know about the big names under one roof.

chris, stop whining...

I'm starting to get concerned about this thread for a couple reasons. Some are obvious, some are not, and some are maybe too reductive but here we go...

***: It's now quite off topic and it has been just about derailed; now we've got a full on messy argument brewing. No fire spitting yet, but the burners on that stove are getting bright red.

***: There has been only but the smallest input from Company. If I were a principal there, I'd have stated something that's confident, dodgy if needed, and mentioned a date for people to expect an answer in the form of a press release at least. This can be 60 different kinds of vague and noncommittal, but what has been posted doesn't put me at ease too much.

***: Patent stuff SUCKS, and the big guys tend to crush it vs the upstarts. Anyone who has done anything with the patent process on their own drinks from this terrible-tasting, unwelcoming fire hose of law, rules, cost, and circular arguments most of which are deflating as hell. It's just full of these seemingly endless points where you think you've hit a brick wall and your product is garbage and you should give up. Even the more "accessible" provisional patent rules are so ill defined and nuanced that it's a case where I do believe having a lawyer is completely worth it. Patenting something isn't nearly as easy as you might think (and I don't think many people on here believe patent stuff is simple so don't read me wrong there). They make it so that patents are very hard to defend. In short it is extraordinarily complex. And all I have ever done is filed 2 provisional patents (and about $250) that seemingly went into the ether, and I never heard word 1 back - or at least I don't know where to do to find where they are. The products aren't ready, but I never heard word 1 about it being a passing or failing effort.

Look nobody wants to see something bad happen with Company or any other neat, upstart with a bright potential future. I loved what was happening there with Company. They may be understaffed or simply went into this without much except industry knowledge, seed money, a huge heart and love of the sport. I really believe the good in people when it comes to this kind of thing. But here is exactly where a good CEO (not to say that the founder isn't a good man) would get out in front of the story and shut it the fark down before it turned into a 3 page screed on a message board.

We're now thirsty for information on this matter. Some of us "think" we need/deserve to know what's up and some actually do, for business reasons. As I see it, this is only going to get worse day by day till someone flinches. Yes, they have no legal reason or responsibility to tell us every (any?) little detail. It's a business and they seem to have hit some turbulence. That's ok - it's happened to so many companies out there right now. Correct Craft did, Epic did, I did... Some make it through, some don't. I just don't buy the patent ripoff thing 100% but I know who could fight it with more muscle: the bigger company. Simply put, Company does actually owe warranty customers and dealers some concrete information. People are already ordering their Summer stuff now. This gets squashed quick, we all forget about it, and I'll put my money where my mouth is - I'll ride a Company this summer. If it doesn't get squashed quick, we'll be in this mode for far too long - and honestly it's already been to long for my palette.

Originally Posted by nickbot

it doesn't matter if LF had the "idea" first...they were the first to successfully "patent" the idea.
Company and Ronix could have done a patent search, concluded that they were in violation, and "designed around" LF's patent...or proposed some sort of license agreement...but, the didn't...not a smart business move on their part. Either they didn't know enough to do this, didn't have a good enough lawyer to understand what to do, or didn't care and figured LF wouldn't care either.
everyone quit your BS whining...If the legal system finds that Company is indeed in violation, they will need to pay the consequences. If they means they go out of business, tough shizz. justin may be a nice guy...but, he also may be a bad business man...anyone remember casette??

Nick, I agree with you except for the first line. Acutally, it does matter who had the idea first. If you can prove you had the idea before the patent holder, you can get the patent overturned. Say if you had design drawings that you can prove existed before whatever designs the other guy had.

So O'brien and LF are owned by the parent company suing Ronix and Company? Has anyone noticed the new o'Briend boots look EXACTLY like the Ronix boots? I know that if this is true, i won't but from the LF/O'Briend company again just out of principal. Maybe the law says differently but the great thing is all our purchase choices don't have to be based on what the law says is 'legal' we can choose based on personal opinions like best riders, best owners and best products.

Its kinda funny, last year i rode a Company Recruit with Ronix Cell bindings (Setup was sick), this year I will be on my first LF product (Watson Hybrid) with Ronix One boots.

Lou,

Nothing beats a sealed envelope mailed to yourself!!! Best CYA invention ever!

For your interpretation:

- LF filed for this patent 4+ years ago, so it was hard to know if they would ever get it awarded to them.

- LF was issued this patent after we had already developed our new binding platform, which we had spent over 100k to tool up in China, and another 100k in development and salaries to get it developed, at least. We are VERY invested into making a beautiful, innovative, and comfortable binding platform.

- After I was contacted about it by Tony Finn via email the eve of Surf Expo 2010 about their newly awarded patent, I responded to him immediately to let him know that I did not want any trouble, and that I wanted to discuss with him how we could resolve the issue.

- After legally investigating the actual patent itself after we returned from Surf Expo, we learned that we are actually NOT in violation of it.

- In order to communicate our position on this, we submitted a clean, peaceful, and formal letter clearly showing LF how we are 100% not in violation of their patent.

- After this letter was submitted, I had many conference calls with Tony Finn himself and told him that I would be willing to cooperate with him on a royalty agreement if he could simply just prove to us HOW we were in violation instead of just SAYING that we were in violation in emails and over the phone. Instead of doing this, he went ahead and filed a formal lawsuit against us and some of the other key independent brands as well to protect their verbal postion on it.

Im personally not sure why Tony went about it this way with me, but I have my own interpretation of it that I will NOT communicate on these message boards. Moving forward though, regardless of the outcome, thank you for your contributions to the discussion because it indeed is a hot topic that I feel like people should know about. (Which is why I posted a link to the publicly filed lawsuit on my personal FB and Twitter page.) As a business we also highly appreciate the love and suport that has been shown in our behalf during the heavy times. We can feel it.

This industry is indeed small, and I wish that things like this could be avoided...We already have a million other things we're still trying to work through...

Regards,
Justin

(We are close to publicly announcing our businesses exact position moving forward as soon as it's completely clear to us first.)

so today i went riding at the cable as it was such a beautiful day out and as im strapping up on the dock, the second pair of comapny bindings that i bought because of no response on the first pair broke in the same exact place, on the same exact side...i now have 2 good left boots and 2 bad right boots....at this point im so pissed about everything goin on that I wish company the best..but im moving on

Originally Posted by apf

so today i went riding at the cable as it was such a beautiful day out and as im strapping up on the dock, the second pair of comapny bindings that i bought because of no response on the first pair broke in the same exact place, on the same exact side...i now have 2 good left boots and 2 bad right boots....at this point im so pissed about everything goin on that I wish company the best..but im moving on

Did you ever consider your stance,how, or what you ride to maybe be a factor? I think I speak for quite a few in saying you have the right to do whatever you choose but don't care to hear about it..at least not the way you went about saying it.

Justin, I think you and company are awesome. Good luck with everything!

so Company says they aren't infringing on the patent, are ready to prove it to LF, are willing to work with LF if it is proven, and LF goes straight to suing to try and drown out the "little guy" in court costs.

Way to go Liquid Force. Top notch d-baggery at it's finest.
Give yourselves a pat on the back.

oh ya, thanks Justin for letting us all in on the info. There's a lot of us believing in the product you are making!

It would be interesting to hear what Ronix thinks about all of this...

i started this post to see if anybody has heard what was going on with company because i had a warranty issue,
if you dont care to hear about it then why did you even open the post in the first place...im pretty sure im entitled to my
opinion just as everyone else is

Originally Posted by beretta5spd

oh ya, thanks Justin for letting us all in on the info. There's a lot of us believing in the product you are making!

Originally Posted by watersun

It would be interesting to hear what Ronix thinks about all of this...

^^ Ditto for both ^^

Justin,

Thank you for your information in regards to this issue. The best to you and everyone with Company.

Watersun,

Ronix also believes they are not in violation of the patent. No official statement has been made to my knowledge, but that's what I've been told.

APF
I'm going to put it like this, I feel your pain. I bought a Klipsch sub for my surround sound just a over a year ago used for $250 had it for a little over a year something in the board got fried after a brownout, I took it back to the guy and was cool about it and he said he'd try and get it warrantied for me this was Nov. I waited and waited then called but was cool about it, not fixed yet so I waited some more finally I called last night 4 months later and he had accidentally written down my number incorrectly and been trying to get hold of me for a week. He says I have bad news the sub got fixed and in transit got destroyed BUT the good news is he got reimbursed for retail $500 and used his employee discount and got me a $1000 Velodyne sub for the inconvenience. Believe me I was getting really pissed but I didn't go online writing bad reviews about anyone involved or call and chew him out and in return I got something for my patience and consideration, Am I saying if you would have done the same would you have got a new setup in the mail? Probably not but you never now when good things can happen in a bad situation..Not trying to single you out just something to think about and I hope your issue gets resolved I really don't think you'll end up eating the cost of your bindings no matter what happens it's just not going to be convenient for ya

fair enough....i see your point, and I dont want to make it seem like im bad mouthing company in anyway, I just dont like the feeling of being left on the dock watching everyone else ride if you understand my point. LIke I said earlier, I really hope everything works out ok for them, but in the interest of riding, im taking a different path at this point.

Wow, LF comes off really bad going by Stephen's message, and honestly it has the ring of truth to it.

I don't know anything about the facts of this situation, but you have to admit that there is something eerily ironic about Justin Stephens and Liquid Force meeting in court to tell The Truth, The whole Truth and nothing but The Truth!

Originally Posted by apf

so today i went riding at the cable as it was such a beautiful day out and as

Oh man, are you really think that cable riding is good for warranty claim??? My guess no

problem is with the bindings...the laces specifically...

justin, aka company, start a donation to raise legal fees. small denominations, and just send out stickers or something simple if you win. i hope you do. i honestly was elated when LF almost went under years ago. does every board really need a quad convex triple concave ribbed bottom from jimmy? anyways, good lawyers=good results and all your money so keep your chin up.

APF.You can broke any laces or laces eye if you want to tight your foot with no limit. Maybe wrong size? Also bindings have NO warranty on the cable too.

Originally Posted by wakeworld

I don't know anything about the facts of this situation, but you have to admit that there is something eerily ironic about Justin Stephens and Liquid Force meeting in court to tell The Truth, The whole Truth and nothing but The Truth!

Right there with you Dave!! I speculate in my own mind the real reasons why they are pushing forward with a suit if it appears not patent has been violated.

To tie them up in court and bankrupt them.

Prime example of evil umbrella corporation attacking made in USA rider owned companies. Quit buying their stuff and let em fail.

Dude.. That example above rasing a small court fee was legit! **** id toss 50 buck in and im a poor student... Company did so well at making one thing and that was FLEX boards... Tony's companies wish they could make that product but they cant... thats why they resort to making, Skis,Kneeboards,TUBES, SURFS, and heavy flx boards

everyone knows i'm a big fan of lf products. everyone also knows i'm a fan of justn's works, whether in films or wake products. either way, i sure hope lf sits down w/ company and works this thing out. i understand protecting patents and such but i'm not quite sure lawsuits like this help a small sport's progress.

Originally Posted by daveronix199

thats why they resort to making, Skis,Kneeboards,TUBES, SURFS, and heavy flx boards

that's got to be one of the most ignorant comments posted in this thread. you do know that you can get your point across w/o resorting to bashing companies, right? w/o companies like hyperlite, liquid force, o'brien, etc., wake wouldn't be where it's at today.

w/o companies like hyperlite, liquid force, o'brien, etc., wake wouldn't be where it's at today.

Are you really think that if LF and O'brien went out in 2003 year this places were empty so long?? These companys growed up in wake that times and this effect was not good for somebody. History come back.

DISCLAIMER: This is MY personal opinion. I have thought a lot about this subject and this is MY personal theory.

I am in quite a disarray in regards to all of this. What Motion doesn't quite understand is that in the long term, this could be the death of the somewhat self-sustaining professional industry. If you kill off the "little guys" within an industry, it provides less companies for up and coming riders to promote, thus guaranteeing less professional riders within the industry. This could effectively shrink the industry in the minds of the consumer, and give less hope to those up and coming riders who want to become professionals. When less people are taking a stab at becoming pro riders, there are less people for the companies to choose from, and that could slow down progression, and eventually result in the wake industry shrinking to the point where it is comparable to professional skiing again.

Once again, this is VERY long term, but totally possible.

Joe.. I think you missed my point.... Look at the Best automotive makers in the world... They arent Making, TRUCKs,Vans, SUV,or motorcycles... They Simply make One or two models that are wicked (Ferrari,Lotus,Austin Martin ext) and they follow very closely to there company mission statement , and they never let that out of sight.... Company made 4 boards that are all top of the line. (and probably forever changed the flex industry in my opinion).... LF may have 2 or 3 wicked shapes but they also have a 10 other boards that simply no ones wants (in my opinion)...When General Motors went bankrupt one of the main reasons was because they where popin' out cars no one wanted as well they where trying to focus on everyone by offering tons of options( Saab,Saturn,Hummer ect)... When you have a simple goal Passion,Improvement, Perfection you are going to surpass a company who is trying to touch everything and everyone

"Prime example of evil umbrella corporation attacking made in USA rider owned companies. Quit buying their stuff and let em fail. "

"- LF was issued this patent after we had already developed our new binding platform, which we had spent over 100k to tool up in China"

made where??

Interesting information from Justin. read the patent and decide for yourself if they are in violation...seems likely to me that they will lose in court. it's not fair to speculate on the details of the tony finn/justin stephens dialog...nor is it fair to characterize LF as the "evil corporation" and company wake as the "innovative little guy"...patent law is what it is and exists to protect inventors (in this case LF)...if company's and ronix's binding technology truly was new and innovative, NO ONE would be questioning whether or not there was any violation...

"- LF filed for this patent 4+ years ago, so it was hard to know if they would ever get it awarded to them"...it seems it would have been wise to plan for the worst case and develop bindings clearly not in violation...but hindsight is...well...you know...

^Nick, you like LF products, we all get it. You are going to support LF no matter what this lawsuit encompasses. Hopefully, you are compensated for your loyalty to LF. You say "it's not fair to speculate on the details of the tony finn/justin stephens dialog", yet you have speculated and you have ruled in LF's favor in your imaginary court of law. Ronix obviously does not feel that they are in violation or they would have pulled their entire 2011 line of bindings. If LF would step up their game with regards to putting out a quality binding, they wouldn't have to worry about the Ronix's and the Company's of the industry and they wouldn't have to resort to some piss-ant patent infringement lawsuit.

yes, I like LF...but, this is a patent law case. i read the patent and looked at company's and ronix's bindings...they seem to be in violation...if a court rules otherwise, so be it. people need to get over the attitude that this case isn't "fair" and LF is trying to destroy the little guy blah blah blah...please take a moment to try and understand how the patent system works in the US, why it is important, and how it applies to this case.

now, can apf get his bindings warrantied already??

now, can apf get his bindings warrantied already??

man, you didn't read above or are you pretty sure that Co must do it? LF doesn't

Nickbot, when you become either a patent lawyer or engineer I'll listen to you. Tony Finn is mad about people leaving lf. Watson almost did for company til they threw madoff money at him. I fully agree with patent, trademark, etc. I just have a disdain for money hungry clowns like the big companies. Like I said , I've got $50 on the company legal fund. Not much, but every little bit helps set up a donation site please Justin. FYI it's almost shameful the sovens ride for a company who makes their stuff in Dubai. ESP. When they could ride for just about any other brand they want.

RM, I am an engineer and I have 2 patents....listen up...

also, I'd much rather buy gear made in the U.A.E. vs. gear made in china...

Nickbot it's not even about it not being fair to Company, the little guy.

This is all about LF dealing with the situation poorly if Justin has spoken the 100% truth here.
Sure we have the details over the patent. LF thinks Ronix & Company are in violation. Company
thinks they aren't in violation. If they are in violation Company wants to work it out. Rather than
deal with it on their own, LF here is just running to the courts. Akin to a whiny kid running to mom
and dad after their cookie was taken. Company is in the position here willing to give the cookie back (if they're found in violation) without getting the courts involved. LF is looking for someone to whine to because their feelings got hurt.

Quick clarification:

- Even though there was no real way to know exactly if or when they would be awarded this patent, we would have never invested in the direction we went with our bindings knowing that there would be any potential liabilities / issues with LF in the future like this.

- As it relates to our stance on the patent, please review the actual "claims" stated on the final pages of their patent. (This is where the patent actually states what LF is "claiming".)

- Our boards are built in the USA, and our bindings are built in China. All by amazing people / factories. (I believe that LF's bindings are built in China, and their boards are built in the U.A.E.)

well i will give you credit on being able to look at a rough sketch as an engineer, but it still comes down to how the patent is interpreted in court. secondly my comment on the uae and the sovens is that they are jewish and ride for a company who helps a place that would wish all jews dead. and you can get arrested for kissing your wife on the beach in dubai as well. while i am saddened to hear only company's boards are made here, it's still better than any company under the kent umbrella. and that actually is what makes them evil. if it was just tony finn and jimmy redmond owning the company they would be considered ok by me, even though they still manufacture stuff somewhere else. just watch any of the resident evil movies. it's a generalization/exxageration for sure, but the "umbrella company" is what caused all the problems trying to rule the world.

What exactly is it that liquid force patented on their bindings ???

companys are made in the slingshot factory, except the vandall, integrity makes that.
thats what i was told.

So who's going to volunteer for organizing a way to make donations towards Company's Court Case? I would rather give $20 to someone deserving and get nothing in return than stand by and watch someone's dream go down the drain.

Sooner or later everyone will be shopping at Wal-Mart, stopping for lunch at McDonalds and having only 2 choices for wakeboard gear if this is how things keep going Better yet maybe we'll all be able to buy our mass produced junk equiptment AT Wal-Mart ROFLMAO

Thought maybe some of you would be interested in this..
http://www.corporationwiki.com/graph...px?id=16951047
and especially this..
http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...slug=obrien140

WOW if that last aritlce is true about The whole cocane thing thats pretty Gnarly

yeah Herb got in Loads of trouble for running coke!

"The companys' cocaine built and corrupt corporate heads kept alive, Go LoserForce!" I'm only kidding, Seriously.

But reading that really makes me wonder just how valid this patent is, kind makes you wonder if this isn't just a low blow for a quick comeup? I'm sure there are alot of good people in these companies but "it only takes 1 bad apple to spoil a bushel" Gotta love those lame old quotes

let me say that i still do a fashion air once and a while. i miss tony's crazy announcing antics and rhetoric. i understand all of this thats going on and can debate it for either side of the law suit. however, i side with company and ronix against their opposition in this case. since the patent seems vague , at least to me, ronix and company are owned and rider owned by some of the best riders in the world and some guys who despite the old pepsi issue, want to do the best for the sport and be the best. if company will allow me to i don't mind setting up a simple site with a donation "store" in which all money donated(site setup free)goes to company's legal fees. ronix would be welcomed also. the only thing i can think of is maybe giving out a choice of a 2 year warranty or 1 year w/ slider warranty option for those who donate a certain amount and smaller swag for other donations. it would apply to buying new product after all is settled. i am speaking with no representation of any of the aforementioned companies. I am just speaking on behalf of myself and any other like-minded individuals.

^^^^^He wasn't resposible! It was guilt by association!

I don't think any brand makes their BOOTS/BINDINGS in USA

^^^^^He wasn't resposible! It was guilt by association!

Did you read the bi article containing the story about his sisters 1.8million dollar tax fraud? HO received 1.2M of that. Not trying to burst anyone's bubble but good people make bad decisions when moneys involved. Maybe he didn't know anything about that either:/

^^^^^^^^^Guess you didn't pick up on my sarcasm.

Oops, Kinda tired after readin up on these awesome companies and they're founders, almost wanna keep lookin it's starting to get good

Maybe we know all now to much...

Shaun, you do realize that Herb is no longer with Hyperlite (H.O.) and is the founder of Square One (Ronix)?

Ron1x is rider owned and operated and I couldn't find him being affiliated with Ron1x other than through Square One Distribution which is also linked with J-star.
So basically Herb has had a role in every major company in wake except Slingshot and Company? Just think of all the animosity that these guys must have towards each other.

^Herb and Paul O. are the brains behind Ronix. Paul was instrumental in getting Harf, Parks, and Chad to leave Hyperlite.

Maybe Justin and Company should just sell some cocaine to keep the business going. Looks like it worked for Herb

This thread is amazing.

^Yeah, it's beginning to take a turn for the worse. Reminiscent of the "Don't be a Dylan" thread.

i admire danny, parks, chad, and emily for taking huge pay cuts to help form their own company. remember the golden days of hyperlite:murray, danny, byerly, harf, chad, ruck, daniels, bt, jd, rathy...it's still a good team. just totally different. and i can't say that if LF offered me bank to ride their stuff i more than likely would if that was my only offer. anyways, lets start this over. good luck underdogs.

This thread is the best i have ever seen on Wake World...

But really Coke in Wakeboarding... I have heard people call it a rich person sport... Not Ghetto!

Dave,

With all due respect, do you think that if a business was having trouble, and struggling to keep doors open, that they would announce it here in a public forum, so that everyone would stop buying their product? They would be putting the nail in their own coffin.

Hopefully they're not in trouble, but either way, they don't have to answer to the public. Not this way at least.

Wow. Can't believe I missed this one..... I think we will all see some changes in our industry next season. Sad but true.

Hello everyone...

I say this with complete and total respect

Words can not define how grateful I am personally for all of you, and for everyone involved in helping our business get to where it has gotten in one way or another...

I understand that as a business we/I have not clarified our position the way everyone wants, needs, and deserves to be communicated with. It has indeed been a very difficult time for us, and we have been navigating through things that we never thought we would ever have to navigate through.

What I CAN tell you is that once we know ourselves what our official position is, then we will communicate it with everyone to clarify things. This is something that I am working on everyday, to this day...

In the meantime though I would be hugely grateful if we could ALL please resist posting anything that may be based on speculation, or that may be hurtful to anyone specifically, regardless of who or what it's about. You can expect this from me moving forward as well.

Praying for resolve on all levels soon...

Justin

^^^^well said Justin. Good luck bro.

My best to you Justin, I hope it all works out for you and Company Wake.

Very classy statement, well said.

Wee done Justin. I hope all works out for the best for you and your Company.

hell yea justin! and to everyone on this post....let your spending do the talking.... if company has any boards for sale on the site... buy them. if company does happen to just release boards this spring....buy them direct, from a core shop and if your shop doesnt carry the brand... get them to.

change can be made based on your spending. but you gotta commit.. stick to the plan. support company wake. i know i will.

1) I remember Slingshot nearly coming out with their new boots, when only team riders and Shred Town seemed to be riding them, and then they didn't, and now have what seems to be a "base" design system. I wonder if they took the opposite rout once this patent knowledge came about.

2) looking at an old Alliance from I believe last year the other day, I noticed the Ronix Relik's in the new gear section, and they were said to have a patent pending baseless design (not quoted exactly). This seemed odd.

Originally Posted by innov8

My best to you Justin, I hope it all works out for you and Company Wake.

Very classy statement, well said.

I couldnt agree more!

Thanks COMPANY! Stay classy...