Ideas for a new competitive format

I think most people agree that the current wakeboard tournament format encourages consistency opposed to agressiveness/innovation. Watching the xgames and how other xtreme sports are judged makes me wonder why wakeboarding doesn't promote riders to take more chances with huge (nearly impossible) moves during competitions.

Lets hear some ideas on how the competition format could be changed (not just xgames format) to elevate competition riding to the level it should be.

judging is too subjective. if they can get away from that, then tourneys will be a lot better, for both the competitor and the spectator.

You get 10 minutes and your 10 best tricks, 5 best sliders, and 2 double ups are scored. I know this will take forever with a lot of riders on the PWT. The rider would only be able to land 10 wake tricks, 5 sliders, and 2 double ups. Any more than that amount of tricks wont count. This way a rider will have to do his best tricks in that limit instead of going for his easy tricks first. judging will be 33.3% difficulty, 33.3% originality, 33.3% intensity.

I was thinking something like having 3 passes, but your only scored on 2 of them. So you have a throw away run. Your first fall, you can get up and finish the pass. Second fall, that pass is done.
And then also have 2 doubleups but only score 1.
They should also start out on a monster slider drop in or a small pool to lake land gap. Not to be scored on, but it would make it a little more exciting.

(Message edited by r_dub on August 09, 2004)

"judging is too subjective"

Ain't that the truth. They should pay attention to what trick skiing has been doing for the past 30 years. When those guys plan a run they know what the score will be if they stick their tricks.

John A.,
yes, but that type of scoring basically creates a bunch of "automaton" riders, while preventing consideration of the elements of "style" that are the basis of board sports. Wakeboarding kind of already went through a phase like that in the mid-late 90s when Kovak was wining all the contests. I like the idea of having a "best-of" concept, like at the X-games, as some sports will take multiple passes and keep the best score, or attempt multiple tricks and get to keep the best or throw out the worst. To me, that would be more fun to watch.

Yeah, the only way to get rid of judging would be to have a trick list, and that would suck!

I should have written that elements of style "are intended to be" the basis of board sports, as they were originally conceived and developed. One of the problems seems to be that such things difficult to score, because they are inherently subjective and non-tangible, but when we steer away from it, then the sport gets boring and loses its soul.

motocross dudes all do tricks they know they are going to land. of course they have a little higher risk if they crash. haha

what could be sweet is if they had a big air contest where the height is actually measured somehow. (system similar to ski jumping computer)

more sliders, more crazy sliders, etc would be sweet. make it more like a skateboarding street course. fun boxes, kickers, real gaps, etc

i like the idea of give em each 10-15 minutes. tv can edit out all the footage they don't want to see. of course this makes the action a little more stagnant for viewers on site. but then again i'd rather go ride than go to an event. I'll watch the event on TV when i can't ride (at night)

Subjective judging is fine when you are talking pro events with qualified judges, paid sponsers, and a need to entertain. I doubt that most local event judges are qualified to give fair subjective scores.

Also boring vs. exciting is not so much an issue for amateur tournaments as the people watching are usually in support of friends and family. IMO it makes more sense to hold the amateur judges to a verifiable standard with minor point deviation for style and execution. That way the judges only need to record the trick and their impression (1..5 or whatever).

Have been to 100's of contests over the past 10 years, and I'm gonna have to call you on it, John. I have seen relatively few "errors" in judging at the local events I have attended. Most of the judges do a great job, considering that most local events don't have 4-6 man heats, and usually divisions like the Jr. Mens can have sometimes 20 riders, all throwing the same tricks in their passes, all to be judged against each other. Verifiable standard? When you look at criteria such as execution, composition, and intensity, your opinion of one guys pass may be entirely different than mine, and so be it. We let everyone know if they have a problem with the judging, then they can sit in the boat and "help" judge the next division. We have only had 1 taker in 6 years, and he apologized.

The "problem" is not with the comp format, or judging system. It is with people who take it too seriously. That is not what wakeboarding is meant to be. When I'm up on that dock, the last thing on my mind is how to beat the next guy. I'm only thinking about riding MY best. And that includes throwing all my hardest tricks, stuff that I rarely ride away from.

Jeff, so if I understand you correctly it's ok for anyone to judge a tournament even if they have no idea how to score the riders.

I agree that riding my best is exactly what's on my mind. That goes without saying. I doubt that thinking about how beat the other guy is on hardly anyone's mind, although I may be mistaken there.

Although I'll admit that I try to use a little strategy wrt where to put the riskier tricks in my run. But beating the next guy is not what I'm thinking about when making my trick list. I think that would only work if you where clearly better and rode down to his level to make a safe run. I've never been in a position of being able to ride *down* to someone elses level.

I thought that's what we were talking about, was at the pro level. Maybe I missed a shift in there somewhere.

Anyway, I agree with Jeff on both counts. I've judged outlaw class many times across three different states, and it is EXTREMELY difficult, especially as he said, when you've got 15 or 20 guys all doing similar or identical tricks in their passes. It can easily all start to run together.

I also agree with him from a competitor's standpoint. There have been times where the judges scored me and placed me better than I thought I should have deserved, and there have been other times when my score and placement was not as good as I thought it should have been (like the time Jeff beat me out at Blyth... KIDDING!!). But seriously, I'm 36 fricking years old, and if I'm gonna get all bent out of shape or let it ruin my fun because I didn't "beat" the other dudes, or because I didn't win the trophy or the prize schwag or whatever, then that's pretty sad and pathetic, not only for me but also in the example I set for the younger kids. We do this sport because it is supposed to be fun and bring people together.

What part of "help" judge did you not understand? Once a compainer sits next to a judge and watches 15 riders in a division, he/she has a new appreciation for what the judges are doing. By suggesting that we go back to an attack sheet system, you would make it exactly like you state in your last 2 sentances.

BTW, the last thing that I think most of us want is to try to make wakeboarding like trick skiing.

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on August 09, 2004)

Thanks Doc, But I'm pretty sure I got last place (fall / BR / fall/ ride the pick up boat back to the beach) at Aha!

I'll add this... It also feels pretty sh*tty when you've just spent two hours in the blazing sun, you've had to maintain your attention and concentration the entire time with few breaks, your hand is cramped from writing/scoring so fast, and now as you're stepping off the boat to finally go take a whiz, some dude you don't even know is giving you the stink eye because he was scored in fourth place, while in his mind he figures he probably deserved second. Kinda makes you wanna stay on the shore and drink beer with your bros the next time a judge is needed.

i'll have to say i agree with the sentiment that wakeboarding wasn't anywhere near as exciting as some of the other events in the xgames.

perhaps part of the problem (if there is one), is that the wakeboarding in the xgames is essentially no different than the pro tour. if the wakeboarding events were more like moto then perhaps there'd be more excitement.

for instance, what if there was a best trick and step up events for wakeboarding? parks' double-up contest seems like it would be at home as an xgames event.

of course, for perspective, check out the winners of the skate street course - talk about lack of excitement! it's more like watching golf.

skate street each rider did like 5 tricks

Doc, I interpreted the original "not just xgames format" as meaning amateur competitions as well.

Perhaps we are looking at this from two perspectives. This is a thread about how to make judging better. Although the original point was to encourage riders to go bigger, so maybe from that POV I'm off base. Jeff, seems to be focused on people who b*tch about the judging and how hard it is. My suggestion is to make it easier and more accurate by recording the trick and the judges impression. The trick is a given so the basic average score isn't in question.

How much subjectiveness you want to add beyond that is up for grabs. You can add up to plus or minus XX percent for execution to encourage the focus on execution. Jeff, said he had one guy apologize after he saw how hard the judging was. I'd be more impressed if he said the judges showed him how they calculated his score and then he apologized.

I'm sure I couldn't fairly judge a totally subjective competition. But if you told me I only had to record the trick and give a 1..10 for execution then I think I could do it. If I didn't catch exactly what someone did, I could confirm it with the other judges. There would be no question about the scoring and you could even show someone who thought he had a problem with it. Seems to me that making judging easier and more definitive is best for everyone riders and judges alike.

The fact that you've stated how difficult judging is an indication that it could be improved. I agree with the issue that it's difficult to maintain your attention and concentration for such a long period. When I'm at a tournament I mainly pay attention to the competitors in my class, and of course the ones that are throwing the killer tricks in outlaw.

It seems to me that when 15 or 20 guys are throwing similar or identical tricks, that's when it's most important to make sure that the trick is being recorded accurately. You can tally the scores later. You can then control the margin for error by weighting the subjective execution modifier. It's a tradeoff between better execution and subjective error, or more technical tricks and predicable scoring.

What part of "help" judge did you not understand
LOL, apparently the quotes part.

But seriously, I'm 36 fricking years old, and if I'm gonna get all bent out of shape or let it ruin my fun because I didn't "beat"...

Who doesn't agree with this? But I'm not sure why you thought it was important to mention in a thread about making judging better. The goal in any competition should be to as accurately evaluate the competitors performance as possible. Not to make excuses as to why judging mistakes should be ok. Everyone goes out and tries to do the best they can. The focus should be on how to reward them correctly.

i thought this thread was about ideas for a new competitive format - not how to improve judging...no?

Sounds like you've got this all figured out, John. Maybe you should open up a judging school. Out of curiousity, how many comps have you actually sat in the boat for and judged?

Origional question - What can be done to encourage riders to be more aggressive/innovative?

My answer - Nothing wrong with the traditional format or judging system (John). Riders need to take it upon themselves to step it up.

Chris, yeah I think Leo was the only one who took that to heart. Looks like we hijacked the thread.

Jeff, Perhaps you should start a thread about judging and request that only judges reply. I promise to stay out. It wasn't my intention to stir up restless natives.

Sorry, John, we can probably thank Joe for starting the judging issue, but I do get a little pissed when I see stuff like this "I doubt that most local event judges are qualified to give fair subjective scores"

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on August 09, 2004)

ryan also had some new competition formats

Jeff, I apologize for making that abrasive statement. I should have anticipated that there would be people on this forum who are judges and would be offended. I spoke before giving a thought to that likely possibility.

maybe i'm wrong. maybe it being subjective is the only (right) way to go. the problem is, a person can throw a crapload of tricks. but, if someone were to go out and stick a poked out stalefish grab to backside 180, guess what, more often than not, a tantrum will beat that because most people like inverts. but, in my eyes, the stalefish to blind is a better trick.

i judge central cal's int for 2 years. it's not the most glamorous nor is it the easiest job in the world.

(Message edited by dakid on August 09, 2004)

yea, spins are definately harder tricks. Especially bs spins. Thats why it is amazing to watch guys like randy harris, greg necrason, and trevor hansen because they are very good backside spinners. But they also have some stylish inverts.

(Message edited by malibuboarder75 on August 09, 2004)

I appreciate the thoughtfulness, guys, as things we starting to head toward nastiness on this thread, and John, I appreciate your realization about how your abrasive comment could have caused others to feel like they needed to defend themselves.

It also does seem that we've hijacked/changed the topic of discussion several times, often having multiple sub-discussions running simultaneously, which has made it even more confusing.

I'll address Joe's point first. As a judge, I'll score a nice tweaked stalefish to blind higher than a tantrum every time. To me, a tantrum is an intermediate level trick, the only place it has in an outlaw comp is maybe as a first trick in the pass to get a feel for the wake. Poked stalefish to blind is a pretty difficult trick, even for advanced/outlaw riders. Maybe other judges would not recognize this fact, but most of the fellas I have judged with would be on the same page about this. Also, I definitely am looking for spinning, and it often is scored higher than flipping, again depending on the technical difficulty. The only time I have had the opportunity to judge Brian Frances, he only had two inverts in his entire run. All the rest was spinning. He got the win that day out of a very competitive AZ field that included Mike Fulton, Jimmy Wolf and the other top names in AZ (oh, and yes, we know the difference between blind and FS spins). Joe, I have a feeling we would judge a comp together very similarly, and it wouldn't surprise me too much if we wind up doing that some day.

John, your description of what you suggest should be done in scoring is almost identical to what we already do...
"recording the trick and the judges impression"
"How much subjectiveness you want to add beyond that is up for grabs. You can add up to plus or minus XX percent for execution"
"record the trick and give a 1..10 for execution"
"If I didn't catch exactly what someone did, I could confirm it with the other judges"
This is exactly how it has been done when I've judged in GA, AZ, and CA.
You wind up at the end of each run with a list of tricks, and notations for subjectivity in terms of height, cleanness, style/tweakedness, and the type of grab. You get maybe 3-5 seconds to record this before the rider is throwing another trick...
So imagine a rider opens with an OHH that is low and sketchy, that one is easy to write down, but then he goes right into a crow mobe with a grab that was weak, but the jump was huge... judges better scribble fast!!! Now he's back with a Heelside Back Roll to Revert, that is huge and tweaked out with a melan grab, but he bobbles on the landing... now you're scribbling so fast that maybe you miss the start of next trick, so you glance over at the sheet of another judge, and quickly try to see what it was, but all you can make out is short-hand and scribbling, and you can't talk very much because everything is happening so fast. Now you're behind, and you have to make sure you don't miss another trick, especially for that same rider! I could go on... Now figure you must do this for as many as 12+ tricks per rider x 10-15 riders without a break.
So now maybe you can see what Jeff was getting at. Like Jeff said, I invite you to ride along and try it some time.

As far as the ORIGINAL topic of this thread, I agree with what Christopher Stack wrote, and that's what I was trying to get at.

I think it is good, that we talk about ways to improve the system at all levels, but going back to the days of predetermined runs surely aint it.

Guys, I gotta go to work now!! PEACE!

How's this for a new format idea (kind of stolen from the skateboard vert challenge):

1. Lengthen the rope to about 150 to 180 feet to give the riders plenty of rope to do thier trick.

2. Have the boat or cable setup that pulls the rider at about 34 mph onto an insane ramp that has a thin sheet of water running on it (say 4 to 6 inches deep).

3. Have the riders to their sickest tricks of this insane ramp over a gap to a raised pool that has exit ramps on the other side. Not sure how big the gap would be (maybe 30 to 40 feet). Of course you have to provide sufficient padding or a foam pit in the gap.

4. One exit ramp would be a down slope ramp with water running off of it, so the riders could slide down to continue their trick or do more tricks once they've landed.

5. The other ramp would be a smaller lip ramp that they could do another air trick off of landing back at lake level.

Given that setup you could run the following events:
1. Best trick. Run two or three tow boats or a series of cables and several jet ski pickups so you could let the riders do it continuously as much as they can for say 30 minutes or something. Just get back in line at the dock as quick as you can for another try.

2. High Jump. Similar to the moto-X high jump. They're doing that with sky-ski now. Keep raising the bar.

3. A head to head trick contest. Best of five or something like that.

4. The riders could also toss the rope at some point of their trick and do their trick ropeless.

This would work for both wakeboards and wakeskates.

that idea is so crazy it just might work

how bout the rider submit a trick list prior to the run that way the judge has all the tricks and can watch for smoothness better.

didnt they already do that in the old days with a score card.

Back to FORMAT ideas. I dont give a rats ass what tricks are better then others and how they score with a specific judge.

What formats could promote the pro level riders to raise the bar during competition.

Love the idea of a third pass, and two doubles. Only score the two best passes and one of the doubles.

10 minute run seems like it would drag on too long, perhaps a five minute run would be cool.

While I agree with rootc, that some of the existing format needs a bit of a tweak and it should stay. However, to step it up like other extreme sports have in recent years, maybe some bigger ideas with some new hardware (ramps, cables, jumps, and other stuff) is needed to aid the riders and wow the audience.

Just my 0.02 though...

What if 2 judges share the task of only judging the technical side of the trick (what was actually thrown), and 2 judges only judged the expressive side (how high/far, style, takeoff, landing, how well grabbed, etc.) Wouldn't that be less writing for each judge when they are only watching certain aspects of the trick... ???
Who knows, but it seems easier than having several judges trying to write down everything about each trick, and then missing parts of the next trick.

Also a possible way to see the newer, harder, never been done before tricks, which would push the riders to the limit... is to give the rider a small bonus for a best trick attempt (1 attempt on a DU right in front of crowd) after the run. (.1 to 1 depending on how hard the trick, how close they came, or whether they landed it)
JMO

Clay,
They already do that because now they use 5 judges instead of 3 like in the past, at least that's how it was last season. 3 of the judges score the composition of the run which includes everything (wake tricks, obstacles, intensity, execution, etc). These 3 judges are located on shore. The other 2 judges are suppose to be on the boat, one judge is responsible for the wake tricks and the other is for the obstacles. Again, I don't know if they have changed that format for this season.

I like the idea of 2 runs (2 passes each w/ double up) with the higher run being scored. There's definitely enough time to hold 2 runs since at X Games and Gravity Games, there's only a small amount of riders that are invited.

I think one of the biggest flaw in the judging system isn't the judging itself but the location of the judges. When I've judged, I feel the best view is from the boat, but some judges don't feel that way, why I don't know. I've judged from both locations and judging from a stand on shore sucks! I personally feel like I can't give an accurate score of riders run for several reasons. If a rider is further down the course from where I'm sitting, it's difficult to see if the rider actually made the grab on the board and/or judge exactly how big they went compared to the other riders.

Many times, I've seen different riders virtually throw the pass (same tricks), and it's those small little details in their runs that make the difference to a judge. Now, I'm not perfect and I'll be the first to admit that I've made mistakes when judging. However, put me in the boat (which in my opinion, is the best point of view for a judge) and I will be more confident on how I evaluate a rider.

I'm not sure how much of you took notice on the TV coverage of the X Games but it appeared to me that all 5 judges were on shore in a stand. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If this was in fact the case, I think that's a BIG flaw that should be looked at for future competitions.

As far as the whole placements of the X Games goes, I think the judges made the correct call in awarding Soven the gold. His run was clean & very technical.

3 passes each with D-up at the end of each pass. Score each pass and each rider takes their 1 best score. Contests are about winning cash for these boys. In contests right now consistency wins cash. In this format it wouldn't as I guarantee at least half of the pros will throw down a huge run if they get 3 tries at it. Safe run equals no money anymore. Very simple.

As far as this judging crap. I hear we have had problems locally. Local judges equal local favoritism, especially when they are judging their buddies against strangers. Problem is they are the only ones that know enough to judge. I have heard rumours of results being changed when the organizer gets handed the results from the boat. But at big comps I doubt judging can be questioned much.

Here is how I ran it this summer (INT):

Best of two passes. Two judges in the boat; one for the trick call and one for style; another person records, but does not judge. Rider submitts a trick sheet, but can throw in other tricks that are written down by the recorder. The style judge adds or subtracts points from the point value based upon style, execution, height, distance, etc.

From the professional point of view:

Use technology. Put a few cameras on the boat and a few around the shore/chase boats/ suspended platforms, etc. The judges are in a room making comments into a recorder. Adminstrative staff turns the verbage into results. The judges approve the results. If the rider throws a lot o5 tricks fast, the judges can rewind and watch in slow-mo. Coupled with the best of two runs, this would give a great way to have some great TV AND audio. Since it is all recorded, you can then review it later and make adjustments to the format, the rider's individual ride, etc. With multiple angles, there will be plenty of film for the TV show/DVD.

As for the format - I like the best of two runs. Each run is 10 tricks. Unlimited falls, but if you fall on a particular trick, you don't get scored for that trick only. Tricks cannot be repeated. Each trick has a point value, style points added or subtracted equal to the trick value itself.

Back to the original subject. How's this:

Each rider gets a 5 minute pass and 3 falls. Time stops if and when a rider falls and time starts again when they re-start(then it it equal for all riders waiting for the boat to come around). With this type of format, you will see bigger and better tricks because the riders won't have to hurry between rails and take their time setting up.

I know many riders that take there tricks quickly and wake2wake because they are worried about hitting the next obstacle.

You could also take it a step further and only give them points for there top 10 tricks. Just a thought. I would like to try it sometime and see if it works