Tige vs. Mastercraft

Zedz,

Actually, the Cobalt website says "Cobalt design calls for an all-fiberglass stringer system on virtually every model." Virtually every model? I wonder what is in the other models? I find it interesting that the words "all-fiberglass stringer system" are in bold print in the middle of a sentence that says "...virtually every model." And according to one of the technicians at a Cobalt dealer, Cobalt was making a transition back to wood-core because the new all-composite boats didn't ride or dampen vibration as well. And before I get attacked for that one, that is simply what I was told by a Cobalt technician. Is it true? Maybe not...or maybe, I have no idea. However, that would be an awfully interesting statement for him to make up.

I will also say that I don't think I have ever heard anyone insinuate that Fountain might not do something because it's cost prohibitive. I've never know them to be too concerned about the price of their boats.

(Message edited by nick360 on April 25, 2003)

Nick – You’re right the use of the word “virtually” is ambiguous in the statement, so I called Cobalt. According to the marketing department it was a marketing euphemism to mean that no wood is used in the “structural components of the hull, stringers or flooring”. The reason they worded the statement that way was because in the larger models finished wood is used in cabinetry, doors and so on, but not as load bearing or structural components. When I asked if there was any thought of using wood in the future the answer was no, “The industry as a whole is moving further and further from the use of wood (in structural/load bearing components), For warranty reasons alone we have made every effort to remove it from our produce line”. Maybe the tech you talked to does have some inside scoop, but this is what the marketing guys had to say.

Lastly, I want to thank good old bill for the Malibu link he posted. Bill once again you have proven that your intellect is truly dizzying! A direct quote from that link…”The fact of the matter is, 90% of all boats built in the U.S. still rely on wood for stringers, floor, and seat frames. After countless hours of testing and creative engineering, we have developed a product line that not only works as well as wood, it works better. Our boats have become more solid, and quiet since the changeover. We use 100% fiberglass in the construction of the floor, stringers, and transom. And the seat frames are assembled with high density polyethylene, a virtually indestructible plastic. These construction materials and methods will last a lifetime. In fact, we guarantee it.”

Bill…it does say 90% still use wood…but then it goes on to say that since they eliminated wood their boats got better! Hey thanks for helping to prove my point!

Yes sir 90% still use wood…I’ll stick with the growing 10% that doesn’t. I believe they call that the top 10%.

Now wait, Zedz. I posted my comment at 11:30 pm on a Friday night and you responded 6:15 am on Saturday morning. (OK, 2:30 am and 9:15 am N.C. time.) Exactly when did you call Cobalt? I doubt their business hours fall with in those times, on a Saturday morning.

Let's just say for the sake of arguement that you envisioned that someone might ask about that sentence and at some point since you first posted the link Friday morning you did call them expecting to have to answer that question. Not to bag on you, but if you were looking for answers on construction philosophy and the future of the company, do you think the Marketing Department would be the best people to get not only correct information from, but also straight, non-marketing information from? The job of any Marketing Department, whether it be Cobalt, MC, Tige', or the Clintons, is to spin and give you what information they want to give you.

(Message edited by nick360 on April 26, 2003)

You cannot compare a balsa system to an XL system. A true balsa system as used in performance boats is very expensive and all about weight reduction. For instance, you can take a very thin lightweight Kevlar type of hull and use Balsa to strengthen due to weight savings. The primary use of XL in Tige' and other boats is more of a cost savings as opposed to performance or weight savings. Candidly, The Tige's I have been in had more vibration rattles and seemed to flex more than the Malibu, CC and CC hulls I have been in. I doubt very seriouisly Cobalt is going back to a wood system in light of other upper end run about competitors electing to move away from use of woods.

Doug, I would agree that you cannot compare a balsa system to an XL system. They are used for two different things. I don't think I have ever heard of a stringer cored with balsa. It's used to core the hull, gunwhale, floor & deck, not stringers. I think the conversation is still in the use wood in stringers, which would be either XL or generic plywood or something like Douglas Fir.

And I have no idea if the Cobalt thing is true or not, but which of its upper-end competitors are moving away from wood. Sea Ray says they were, but if you stick your head in the ski locker and look around, you will see exposed wood (at least up until a year or two ago), Chaparral tried it and went back to wood (straight from the national sales mgr), Monterey still uses wood. I may have a different opinion as to Cobalts competitors as you do, so I may not be thinking of the same companies as you.

Magellan, nice beach job you dumba**!

Alright, JOSH is officially an Assh%^$........

I heard rumblings that Crownlie was. I have heard quiet a few complaints about rotten stringers and rotten rotten transoms. I though Brett did a post a year or two ago where there was a mention that Tige' would not have wood in 200X. Maybe they changed their mind and hence the new warranty. I have heard of others, but don't really pay too much attention because not my market. I only keep a boat for two years max so rotten wood not much of a concern to me.

The rotten stringers and transom complaints I mentioned above were on Crownlines.

Nick - I would waste your time with Zed. The only thing he will do is take what you say, find a way to twist it and dig even a larger hole for himself. Not only a deeper hole for himself but the lame A@@ dealership that he works for also. Boy Zed you really do a fine job representing MASTERCRAFT OF CHARLOTTE. I couldn't even guess what type of excellent service you offer your customers. Oh and the Malibu web site thing. Just go back and read what you posted and really read it. I think your ignorance speakes for itself when you make comments like that. Man, you really need to give it a rest as this has turned into personal battel between you and anyone that disagrees with you. I bet you are like the MC dealer here in Dallas, about 5'6" and pissed off at the world.
By the way, who did you speak with at Cobalt in the Marketing department? I actually know a few of the guys up there.

Doug,
Those are very, very serious public accusations against Crownline and the XL Panel product by Greenwood Industries.
As you know Greenwood Industries who supply Crownline, Grady White, Tige, Sanger, Cobalt and other companies throughout the yacht, cruiser and performance boat niches who use XL, honestly and openly say there has never been a claim for rot or degradation in this product and it is used in over a million boats made. We certainly have never had one.
I will pass this post on to the management at Greenwood Products and Crownline so they have an opportunity to respond to the accusations. I think that's only fair.

Please, if you consider terms like "rumblings" and "I have heard" statements to be actual accustations against Greenwood, I guess you will do what you have to do. However, perhaps you should realize what Mr. Hanson said was simple hearsay without any direct, or convincing, proof against Greenwood Industries. His statement was certainly not a "very very serious accusation", it was hearsay, plain and simple. Although I have definitely partaken in some of the tomfoolery this thread has produced, and not very well I might add, this is now getting a bit out of hand. I think we all can conclude that Mr. Hanson doesn't like your boats, so what. Lots of people like Tige boats. I know from experience that you have a first class dealer in Stayton, Oregon who does alot to spread the Tige name in the northwest. Tige has definitely established itself as a major player in the ski/wakeboard boat game. In my humble opinion, the LAST thing this thread needs is a response from Greenwood Industries and/or Crowline (they don't even build wakeboard boats) that will incite more frivolous banter about which manufacturer's stringer system is "better".

Bill, Zed does not have to provide service to customers. You see, he sells Mastercraft, which everyone knows is the best boat in the world, never has any problems, cannot be faulted, etc., etc., yada, yada, composite, blah, blah, rotten wood, facts, blah, ad nauseum....so if someone has a problem with their Mastercraft it must be their own damn fault so it's not covered under warranty.

But seriously...all of you are just sore because you couldn't afford a Regal Session 22Xi. Why even argue about your other lame-azz boats? It's like arguing over which unidentifiable glob of slime in your bathroom is better. Just go about your business and be sure to bow your head with awe and respect whenever the mighty Regal Session 22Xi Playstation Edition passes and try not to be capsizeds by it's all-powerful wake, which the very bestest rider in the world, who's name we won't mention, says is the greatest shizzle since Pop-Tarts and heroin.

Brett:

Check out the Crownline forum. Here is a thread about a 206 with rotten wood.

http://www.crownline.com/ownersclub/guest.html

If you search through there, you will se other discussions about rotten transoms and I have seen discussions on the Crownline forum which are the rumblings I have heard.

I am sure you would love to get a crack at me, but you will have to do better than that.

Todd:

I am not worried. I am a litigator and have extensive experience in the areas of defamation. Brett's idle threat is more of a get even since I have not always spoken highly of his boats. Too bad he and Tige' were not as concerned about helping me when I was going trhough my nightmare with Tige' as they are looking for ways to get me back.

Hey Josh, thanks for the beach comment. Here in FL where we ride every day, the beaches drop off quickly, and you can beach your boat. Also, with my 04 on order, and this 03 with a whole 25hrs on it, I'm not particularly worried if the sand scuffs the gelcoat.
Again, thanks for the concern.

(Message edited by magellan on April 26, 2003)

Here are a few since my link above did not work. IN the past, I have seen others if you want to take the time to look for them.

keith brasher 09 28am Apr 11 2003 CST
Kevin,

Sorry to hear the news. I had the same experience last year. I found what I thought was a small rot area and upon investigation (ripping up the rotten floor), it had spread from the transom to just behind the drivers area. Thank goodness the actual transom was in good shape.

DON'T JUST LAY NEW FLOOR ON TOP

It's actually not as hard a job as it may seem at first. I had to rip everything out (including stringers) and replace it all. Be sure to uncover a little ways up into "good" wood. You'll need to do this so you can attach the new with the old floor for strength and make sure there is no hidden subdeck rot.



Dave Garman - 12,06pm Mar 14, 2003 CST (2.2)
Hi Kev - I would also recommend replacing the rotted wood (instead of covering). My last boat rotted out from underneath due to rot (stringers were ruined). Unfortunately you may also find some stringer damage too once the floor is cut out - hopefully you'll be lucky. I'd recommend replacing as much of the rotten parts as possible.

Checkout www.rotdoctor.com (someone on this board turned me on to them). They have a lot of info regarding this. My understanding is that marine plywood is not any more water resistant than regular plywood, but it is much stronger (it is not treated with anything to make it water resistant).

I just ordered a shipment of chemicals from rotdoctor and will start repairing my boat - if this winter ever ends. I had a soft spot over the gas tank and under the passenger seat. I ended up removing pretty much the entire floor (it's sat the whole winter that way). I wanted to get a good look at the stringers and stuff , based on my previous boat's problems. I've got a 94 225BR. Good luck Dave



Kevin Phillips - 10:49am Mar 13, 2003 CST (1.)
He Guys, I am in the middle of having my interior re-done and I decided to redo the carpet myself. When I pulled out the old carpet last night I found a nasty little surprise! Although I knew the base of the couch was rotted. It seems that is also served as a dam on the starboard side and rotted some of the floor underneath. I thought that the floors were fiberglasses to prevent that. There was not alot of glass down there. Has anyone had this problem and had to replace some of the floor? I had someone suggest that I just let it air dry for about a week and then lay some 3/8 marine grade plywood on top of the existing floor and glass it over. I am not sure which way to go and am open to any suggestions. The problem spot is about 2'x'2 maybe a little bigger mostly under the bench seat


Steven Kroesen - 11,22am Mar 13, 2003 CST

just search the site for "rotten", it has been talked about before. I would not just cover the rotten area, it is best to remove it as it will continue to spread otherwise. It is not that hard to do based on others experiences.




Eric Taylor - 02,52pm Mar 13, 2003 CST
Kevin, don't just cover up the rot. For one thing, if it spreads..it'll hide from you till there is a major structural problem down the road.

It kills me that you guys will never understand that WOOD ROTS NOT XL PANEL. Where in your little cut and paste does it say that these boats were using XL Panel? I would love to see a post from Greenwood saying that they have never had a clame but I guess you guys would think they are making it up. Why don't you try and get the manufactue of the foam in your little MC to state that the foam will not hold water, fuel and over time rot? Man, I'm spent! You guys kill me about this and I don't even own a damn Tige. Let me know if you hear a pop when you remove your head from your

Where in my post did I say XL? Brett seems to think Crownlines use XL and the above post came from a Crownline forum. 2 + 2 generally equals 4. I also recall seeing at least one post in the Crownline forum about someone buying used and stating that the found that the transom had a soft spot. It was then point out that the transom had wood. If I recall correctly, this was w while back, someone else piped in about his rotten transom and offered advise for resolving the issue. Been a while so I cannot recall the details.

Nick,
I did call on Friday as I was trying to come up with a definitive answer to the cobalt thing. When I read the word “virtually” on the web I became concerned that what I had been told during training (yep been there sold against that) was incorrect or had changed. The only people I could get to on a Friday were marketing guys. Sorry, but that was all that was available.

Bill,
Your razor wit and dizzying intellect have put me “on the ropes”. Your one two punch of sophomoric insults and homophobic humor have set a standard that few can live up to (thank God).

hey megellan, They are allready taking orders on 04s? didn't the 03s just start rolling out? Maybe you will need one by then if you keep running it on the beach like that. It's only money.

Chadna and Magellan, you guys are alright in my book. You don't take any s&%* from anyone. Magellan you have an alright looking boat, take care of it! As soon as I get my camera back I'll show ya all how we do it in Colorado! I'll also include an address your women can send their panies!

Bayliner apparently uses XL so it must be good . . . or at least cheap.

wood should only be used on sailboats, and classic Chris crafts, simple, end of discussion.

O.K., I'll bite. Why only sailboats and classic Chris Crafts?

I should have a put a with my last post. Seriously though, sailboats look awesome with a lot of wood and brass, and well everyone knows how awesomw Chris Crafts look when they have been restored.

After reading this post, I have come to the conclusion that wood stringers are better. I took a chainsaw to our X-star this weekend and installed new XL stringers. Actually I just used treated 4x4 lumber from home depot. It rides awsome. The damn thing is so heavy I don't even need a ballast system. I called MC after my experiment and told them what I did. They loved the idea. The MC plant janitor on 3rd shift told me that his brothers talking dog said that "all MC's will be made of wood by 2006." Nauti's and Malibu's will be left in the past with their old school composite stringer crap. Oh and I heard they were also getting rid of the engines in favor of a sail that attaches to the tower. Talk about gas savings. They will be classic - wood and a sail.

your killing me MATT. Please send instruction for a VLX wood retrofit

Matt,

I don't believe what I am hearing! Please understand that your statements are very, very serious allegations against the composite stringer industry and will not be tolerated. Your post is also offensive to the following groups (trees, people who like trees, engines, people who like engines, Dennis Conner - Doesn't like to pull wakeboarders, the Pink Panther, Lowes Home Store and Dubya - using gas is a good thing- hell with natural power) Please understand that I intend to forward your message to all of these folks, its only fair.

Since all you guys are so friggin' smart and have solved the wood/boat issue, why don't you now direct your big brains to what I consider a REAL problem:

Figuring out how to make vinyl that won't cut/tear/rip/stain/etc. In my opinion this is a WAY bigger problem in the boating world...

fiberglass seats.

Oh excuse me, everyone knows that a wood bench is better than a fiberglass seat.

Just takin' apage from Doug.

Let's keep at it! Don't let her rest!

I watched "Castaway" with Tom Hanks the other day. In that movie his boat was made out of wood but the toilet that washed up on shore was made out of fiberglass. Hmmmm... Maybe they were on to something there...

What kind of wake did the toilet throw?

Well, Wilson weighted it down for him, that is, until he decided to swim off into oblivion....

There hasn't been too many misspellings to pick on in the last few posts, so I thought I'd make one up. I like to ski on one, that's my "clame to faim". Thank yoo for lissening.

200th post. Just wanted to see if the thread would explode!

Ha #201 and the word is "fame". Spell check please. Just kidding

You know it just occured to me they don't even make wooden legs out of wood anymore, aren't they now made from composite? Does that mean they suffer from vibration?

Zedz Dead, and so is this thread.........

Never been one to pass up a good intellectual fight or a mispelling test. I should definitely be the misspelling bee winner.

i looked at the tige and the mastercraft, i was sold on the quality of my sanger v210. i love the ride and the wakes are almost perfect. i am not ever going to bash another boat because for 40,000 they should all be built to last, each person has something they like or dislike about their boat. my sanger kicks a@@

We all love Dave Williams right? He has A Malibu, so those must be the best.

He may be right you know.