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Old     (cwitham)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-17-2009, 8:59 PM Reply   
I am a wakeboarder and a design student working on a re-design project for wakeboard bindings.
I was hoping to open a discussion about bindings in general, and find some common problems to try and tackle.
Maybe a question to get the discussion started off.

Open toe vs. Closed toe and why
Old     (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-17-2009, 9:06 PM Reply   
Closed toe are sweet when the water is cold, other then that I really don't see an advantage.
Old     (michaelb)      Join Date: Feb 2009       03-17-2009, 9:08 PM Reply   
I like closed toe for the secure fealling and you can ride in cold water.they are also easier to get in and out of IMO.One promblem i face is that while my 08 murrrays hold me well on normal falls they don't always release on the falls that they need to(though i did fix this promblem by wearing socks, wish i could trust the bindings without the socks maybe yall could work on that promblem)also sometimes i end up slipping forward on hard landing first time i did that thought i broke all my toes.If yall could fix all these probelms i would buy your bindings even if they were on up in the highside, like 400+ dollars to me would be ok for great bindings that last for a few years with a good damage coverage.

(Message edited by michaelb on March 17, 2009)
Old     (jasonpav)      Join Date: Dec 2008       03-17-2009, 10:16 PM Reply   
Before I bought closed toe bindings, I was a strong believer in open toe, but with closed toe, you get extra support, comfort, warmth, and overall stiffness. I'd say that the biggest downside to closed toe bindings is that you need to make sure to get the exact size you need or else your toes will be hurting either from being crammed in from sizes too small or jammed forward from being too loose
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-17-2009, 10:29 PM Reply   
how are closed-toe bindings "easier" to get in and out of?
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-17-2009, 10:59 PM Reply   
^^ i was thinking the same thing joe,

i am thinking that some of the technologies that have made it easier to get into boots have come more and perfected along with the closed toe tech (if i can call it tech) straps and laces and other entry helping gadgets go hand in hand with closed toe... you don't see a closed toe ultra suction ;)

ANYWAY, didn't mean to take that off track too much

i vote Closed Toe too.
1.)gives a feeling that you are more connected and one with your board. but with this said, i don't believe the thought that they give more leverage
2.)keeps your toes from being bitten by frost
3.)I'd rather worry about my toes getting a little cramped on some landings than have an entire foot go out the toe holes = messed up foot and messed up bindings


Seems the largest concern is the whole sizing and toe cramming thing. if you can make something that will be a softer/absorbing impact for the toes or even a toe that adjusts somehow, that would be kool... just throwin' out an idea here
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-17-2009, 11:09 PM Reply   
seems that there are way more instances of jammed toes in ct bindings vs. foot thru ot bindings.
Old     (wakemikey)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-18-2009, 5:23 AM Reply   
The LF Watson closed toe is no easier to get into than the open toe. The closed toe version is much much heavier.

Find a better shoelace holder or lace cinch.
Old     (bboozer)      Join Date: Apr 2007       03-18-2009, 5:51 AM Reply   
What about some type of air bladder for a customized fit, similar to the old Rebok pumps that were on basketball shoes. even if it was only in the toe area. That would allow any open space to be taken up by the air system and then it would add some extra cushioning in the case that you did jam your toes on that hard landing... (Damn I should try to work on my own ideas instead of giving them away for free)
Old     (hawkeye7708)      Join Date: Feb 2007       03-18-2009, 6:25 AM Reply   
When it comes to ease to get into, It's got almost everything to do with liner construction (excluding Hinge-Tech, which is a brilliant idea, but for my point I'm excluding it). If you compare a boot such as the 2007 Hyperlite 3DS, a closed toe, to say, a LF Transit boot of the same year, you'll find the Transits are much easier to get into. Not because of the closed toe vs. open toe design, but based on the liner construction. When wet, you can get into the 3DS fairly easily, however, without water, you can get into the Transits just as easily, if not easier. In my opinion, you cannot base ease of entry off of an open vs. closed toe design.
Old     (hawkeye7708)      Join Date: Feb 2007       03-18-2009, 6:29 AM Reply   
Whoops, I missed the "WHY" part. I'd say I've really enjoyed the Closed-Toe style of boots. I will say however, that all closed toes are not created equally. My first set of CT boots was the 2006 3DS, and while I loved the boots support and stiffness, the material over the toe to me seemed very gimmicky, and did little to anything for the performance aspect. Once I got on the 2007 and 2008 LF Shane bindings, the solid construction of the toe, I feel, gave me better leverage and overall better control of the board. I just felt more locked down. Not to mention in some of the cold temps we ride in, the closed toe is pretty nice for keeping that water off your tootsies when your olling ice chunks.
Old     (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       03-18-2009, 7:20 AM Reply   
I never realized that so many riders had cold toes from OT bindings. Thats hilarious. I ride in the winter with OT and my toes have never been an issue. Hands or face is another issue.
Old     (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-18-2009, 7:23 AM Reply   
The big change in modern bindings(closed or open) is the change from stretchy material to solid non-stretch material. I look at this as a good thing and a bad thing, here is why:

Non-stretch material across the top of your foot in an open toe binding will help prevent the ability of your foot from shooting forward and out the end of the binding, that’s a good thing.

But non-stretch material around the upper part of the binding will prevent the ability of you foot from coming out on really hard falls and edge catches leading to more concussions, that’s a bad thing!

Now for closed toe, the thing I have noticed is, it is much harder to get your toes cinched down due to the toe-box, all the material needs to bunch up to get a really secure fit, making it easier to jam your toes.

I still think that from a performance standpoint all that closed toe boots offer is warmth when it’s cold, and maybe protect your toes in some bizarre slider accident!.
Old     (cwitham)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-18-2009, 7:33 AM Reply   
Thanks guys, J Jakober sounds like he brought up a good springing point. What do you prefer as far as stiffness of materials? I prefer the stretchy feel to a binding. I like to be able to move around side to side. In fact, I even STILL ride my old LF ultra suctions, cause they haven't broken yet and I haven't tried anything i like better since. I don't mind using soap to get in, and they hug my feet soooo well and evenly, that I feel that I don't need the stiffness of most of the newer bindings. Am I crazy?

So, next question, what do you guys think about material stiffness? and Why?
Old     (michaelb)      Join Date: Feb 2009       03-18-2009, 8:27 AM Reply   
i prefer the stiff materials because its like your feet become part of the board and there is a great weight to turn ratio.so i prefer stiff materials for riding when i am trying tricks, but if i am just playing around on my roam i like the stretch materials.I still my LF Stance bindings on my roam.
Old     (michaelb)      Join Date: Feb 2009       03-18-2009, 8:27 AM Reply   
i prefer the stiff materials because its like your feet become part of the board and there is a great weight to turn ratio.so i prefer stiff materials for riding when i am trying tricks, but if i am just playing around on my roam i like the stretch materials.I still have my LF Stance bindings on my roam.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-18-2009, 8:31 AM Reply   
I feel that closed toe boots give me way less toe lift, more control.
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-18-2009, 9:38 AM Reply   
^ looks like another brainwashed customer.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-18-2009, 10:03 AM Reply   
how could it not.... affect toe lift.
look at snowboard bindings, they've clearly changed to reduce toe lift... why wouldn't wakeboard bindings.

old style toe straps
Upload
new style toe straps lock down on the very end of the boot to stop toe lift.
Upload

I understand that closed toe isn't for everyone but it certainly has its advantages.


Please explain how not having material at the end of your foot will somehow keep your toes down?... just doesnt make sense to me.
Old     (michaelb)      Join Date: Feb 2009       03-18-2009, 10:15 AM Reply   
maybe yall can make a snowboard wakeboard binding hybrid where it has the cushion of wakeboard bindings, but the light weight and design of a snowboard.may like a wake/snowboard binding where u just step in with like a special padded boot sintch it down tight.Though that may cause promblems when you need to come out.just throwing this out there.
Old     (benjaminp)      Join Date: Nov 2008       03-18-2009, 10:16 AM Reply   
I have noticed that as far as tightening the binding over the bottom of my foot and toes, I have problems with the laces. Pulling from the top makes the laces tight around the ankle, but I find that I have to pull on the laces from lower down to get it tight around my toes. Two part laces help with this, but I think the LF Vantage has the right idea with the three separate straps.
Old     (blaketheho)      Join Date: May 2007       03-18-2009, 10:18 AM Reply   
Hmm, interesting question. I think that the only real advantage to closed toe (aside from warmth) is that it does make for a little stiffer structure. To prove this to yourself, take an open shoe box, cut off one end wall and it becomes easier to fold over to the side. It's obviously not that simple, but closing the toe will add stiffness.

bboozer, I think that the air bladder would be a pretty good idea. The two issues that I see are:

1. If you pump it underwater bad things happen. There is no real way to keep someone from doing that, at least not that I can see right off.

2. Someone (Burton maybe?) had a patent that seemed to cover wake boots.

jjakober, I think you've hit a pretty important point. There is at least one way that I can see to get the best of both worlds and have bindings release without compromising stiffness. I'll leave it at that for now.

cwitham, good luck to you! Just remember that all good ideas have a downside and it's best if you can recognize it before someone else does! Also, make sure that you work doing something you love because there is not a lot of glory in design. Does anyone know who designed the boots that they own? Hint: it's not the rider who's name is on it.
Old     (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-18-2009, 11:14 AM Reply   
Nick,

Yes there is material all the way over your toes in closed toe bindings, but unless you have really long feet, you also have material over you toes on open toe bindings. The difference I see is that on open toe the material is snug against your foot, where as on closed toe, it is not, the toe box prevents it from snugging down, so you still have to lift your toes up until they hit the top of the boot to gain any advantage.

As far as the cap strap snowboard bindings, they were designed to hold your boot back into the heel of the binding, not hold your toes down.

PS: Closed toe boots are harder to get dry, so the stinkability is much higher with them!!
Old     (tom_paz)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-18-2009, 11:46 AM Reply   
^also the new snowboard toe straps keep you from sliding out the front of the boot(not lifting up, the old straps took care of that) which was my biggest gripe from OT wake boots. Ive ridden CT boots since their intro in '06 and can honestly say (being PROPERLY fitted) I have never smashed or jammed my toes in any way, the only thing i feel is slight pressure from the toe cap stopping me from sliding out the front.

Either way the same argument can be made for CT wake boots as the new style snowboard straps. Helps hold your heel in that back of the boot, and/or prevents toes and foot sliding out the front.

However, these "advantages" are only significant (or noticeable for that matter) with properly fitted boots. This may or may not be your shoe size or even same size in an OT version of the same boot. The way to tell a correct fit in a CT boot is when your knees are very bent, your toes should still be able to make contact (no serious pressure though) with the front of the toe cap. If not then they are too big, which lends to smashing toes/not able to cinch enough/generally too much space to move.
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-18-2009, 11:56 AM Reply   

quote:

By J Jakober (jjakober) on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 11:14 am:

Nick,

Yes there is material all the way over your toes in closed toe bindings, but unless you have really long feet, you also have material over you toes on open toe bindings. The difference I see is that on open toe the material is snug against your foot, where as on closed toe, it is not, the toe box prevents it from snugging down, so you still have to lift your toes up until they hit the top of the boot to gain any advantage.





oops!




quote:

By Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas) on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 10:03 am:


new style toe straps lock down on the very end of the boot to stop toe lift.







quote:

By J Jakober (jjakober) on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 11:14 am:

As far as the cap strap snowboard bindings, they were designed to hold your boot back into the heel of the binding, not hold your toes down.





oops again!
Old     (onthewatermo)      Join Date: Jan 2008       03-18-2009, 12:21 PM Reply   
Closed Toe - I have ugly toes and am really self-conscious about them.

Also I have a healthy fear of the "foot through the open toe" wipeout.
Old     (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-18-2009, 12:40 PM Reply   
Good point Andy, I never thought about hiding ugly toes!! Chalk up another advantage for closed toe.

Honestly, we could debate the advantages and disadvantages of either style binding forever and not come to any agreement. I guess that's whats so cool about the internet!

The only thing I don't really like about current high end bindings, closed and open toe, is the lack of stretch in the upper cuff. I like to come out at some point when a trick starts heading in the wrong direction!

Anyway, ride what you like and have fun doing it
Old     (michaelb)      Join Date: Feb 2009       03-18-2009, 12:58 PM Reply   
i like CT Boots better but J Jakober has a point on my old LF stances i could pullout of a trick if it went wrong but on my 08 murrays its hard to get out with out leaning down and losening the strings.so quick release CT boots would be much appreciated.gives you something to work on i guess.
Old     (phxwakeguy)      Join Date: Dec 2008       03-18-2009, 2:02 PM Reply   
If anything could be re-designed I would start with the mounting system. Open and closed toed arguments are beaten to death.

People complain about expensive boards ect because every single person has to buy one and its a pain to swap bindings if you want to share.

I'd like to see a step in mount where all you would need is to buy your own boots. A family could share a board or your crew could swap boards around or split the cost if you can agree on what to ride, or you could borrow a board easier.

I for one HATE sharing my boots w/ anyone...I think I have a foot phobia, and therefore do not enjoy sharing my board.

You could also switch boards for each run if you choose too w/o having to fumble around w/ the screws. One set flex, one set regular ect. You could take out a full crew and not have to worry about rack space.

It'd also solve the heel lift prob too...who knows.

Prob wouldnt be a solution for the core riders out there, but for weekend warriors and fams it could be the ticket.

Maybe you could incorporate an adjustable footbed/mount angle for a more natural stance and knee alignment.

I donno...just an idea.

Something like:
Upload
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-18-2009, 2:18 PM Reply   
quote:
By J Jakober (jjakober) on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 11:14 am:

As far as the cap strap snowboard bindings, they were designed to hold your boot back into the heel of the binding, not hold your toes down.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




oops again!



Why would you want your boot all the way back? so the toes don't sneak forward? So they don't pop up when the do go forward?


Things are usually done for a reason... such as making wakeboard boots closed toe. If it is so stupid and useless why does every company have the same or more sets of boots with CT... not to mention most of the CT boots are high end.... seems to me if you want a TOP OF THE LINE boot, your choices are limited to CT, or LF which gives you the option...which is maybe the reason Joe is so dead set on them.
Old     (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-18-2009, 2:25 PM Reply   
I have never really been a fan of closed toe boots, and especially since last sunday when I broke my big toe because I jammed my foot forward. Open toes are the way to go, IMO.

To me it's laughable that people think that your toes stay warmer in closed toe boots. The water still gets in either way, and even in open toe boots, your foot is pretty much wrapped up in neoprene anyway. Don't even get me started on the leverage thing...that is joke.

VIVA OPEN TOE BOOTS!!
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-18-2009, 2:45 PM Reply   
poser, i knew there was a reason why i like hangin' out w/ you.

we need to plan a camping trip at the secret lake! bug's cleared by his doc to do whatever now!
Old     (cpizzle)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-18-2009, 2:50 PM Reply   
Water gets in my wet suit but for some weird reason, I stay warmer. ;)
Old     (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-18-2009, 2:51 PM Reply   
BBR,

Now I have to speak in defense of closed toe! I see you are from California so maybe you haven't ridden in really cold water. This is what I mean by cold:

1

2

3

I can assure you that closed toe makes a big difference in conditions like this. I stood around in my wet bindings waiting for the boat to get back for about 10 min, it was snowing the whole time and my feet were fine. I can't imagine standing around in wet open toe bindings in freezing conditions like that. Can you say FrostBite!?!?

I do agree that the leverage thing is a joke though!
Old     (cpizzle)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-18-2009, 2:51 PM Reply   
BBr,

Now your toe!!! lol!!! Man, it's not your year!

It's not mine either. first my back now my ankle.

(Message edited by cpizzle on March 18, 2009)
Old     (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       03-18-2009, 2:54 PM Reply   
brandon -sorry to hear about your toe dude. you are not having a ton of luck with the injury dept lately.

as far as keeping warmer. they certainly keep your feet warmer. I dont see the huge need for that though. I only noticed the difference, when removing my bindings in the water, and one liner was still on one foot. but when the water is that cold, I dont hang out in the water for very long.

I was adament about not switching to CT. once I rode in them, I changed my view. I just felt better all the way around. and I thought I would never find a more comfy binding then my Zeus'.
Old     (tom_paz)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-18-2009, 2:57 PM Reply   
said before but will say it again, if you smash your toes on the toe cap, your boots are TOO BIG.

Your foot should NOT be able to slide forward or back or around anywhere inside the boot. This is the basis of fitting snowboard boots and thats why you never hear any toe-smashing injuries from them.
Old     (to_blind)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-18-2009, 3:17 PM Reply   
this closed toe thing is amazing. what a great concept. I can't wait until my everyday footwear is available in a closed toe model...oh,... whats that you say? shoes have always had closed toes?! I wonder why that is? protection! feel! warmth! get out! well spank my azz and call me charlie! once everybody takes the time to size their equipment properly, the CT vs OT argument will be over. Until then, I guess OT's are great for someone who buys on-line and requires a little forgiveness in sizing, other than that I can't see a benefit to having your toes exposed anymore.

also, for anyone who has ever had a ding on their board from a handle, just imagine what that can do to an exposed big toe..wish I had pics to prove it, but i did this and my toe was a nice shade of purple for some time.
Old     (lfrider92)      Join Date: Sep 2008       03-18-2009, 3:29 PM Reply   
my reason for wearing closed tow is rather funny .. when cutting hard toeside. i get nervous when my toes touch the water. lmao.

but seriosuly, the ain reason i like them. is or when doing board and lip slides out in the flats, i can get more leverage to prevent face or back plants. since i started riding with closed toe, i haven't face planted once.. knock on wood. its most likely more mental then anything
Old     (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-18-2009, 3:29 PM Reply   
Tom, I guarantee that my boots are sized properly and that is NOT the reason that it happened.

Jakober, you got me on that one. In YOUR situation, it makes sense to me, however most people wouldn't be caught dead even near the water in temps such as those.

Joe, bring it on man. Sometime in May would work out great. Just after Wake Games and the weather will be really nice.

Chris, can you believe it? It comes with the territory though, you can't stay young forever....sadly.
Old     (stoked_32)      Join Date: Aug 2007       03-18-2009, 3:36 PM Reply   
Brandon.. what were you throwin when you busted up your toe? Hope it wasn't that 7... let me know when you stick that trick man, u were real close a few weeks ago...
Old     (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-18-2009, 3:45 PM Reply   
What up John, nope it wasn't the 7. Sadly it was a nothing trick....indy tantrum that I just landed a bit on my heels. Poopy.
Old     (jtnz)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-18-2009, 5:21 PM Reply   
I like Open Toe because more people can ride them, and they're cheaper. My bindings are sized right for me but my friends who don't have their own gear can still borrow mine when they come out with me to ride whether their feet are larger or smaller. I have had the foot out the front experience and it's not nice, but it only happened once with my older cheap bindings... It doesn't get cold enough here for any huge warmth gains from CT bindings.

(Message edited by jtnz on March 18, 2009)
Old     (cwitham)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-18-2009, 7:25 PM Reply   
I'd say we've probably beaten this closed to vs. open toe thing to death. How about a new question.

In your opinion what is the biggest problem with wakeboard bindings?
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-18-2009, 7:59 PM Reply   
Currently... i think it is deciding what width of base plate will be used and the style of mounting and such

throughout time... well maybe i would have to agree with

quote:

By Scott (phxwakeguy) on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 2:02 pm:

If anything could be re-designed I would start with the mounting system. Open and closed toed arguments are beaten to death.

People complain about expensive boards ect because every single person has to buy one and its a pain to swap bindings if you want to share.

I'd like to see a step in mount where all you would need is to buy your own boots. A family could share a board or your crew could swap boards around or split the cost if you can agree on what to ride, or you could borrow a board easier.

I for one HATE sharing my boots w/ anyone...I think I have a foot phobia, and therefore do not enjoy sharing my board.

You could also switch boards for each run if you choose too w/o having to fumble around w/ the screws. One set flex, one set regular ect. You could take out a full crew and not have to worry about rack space.

It'd also solve the heel lift prob too...who knows.

Prob wouldnt be a solution for the core riders out there, but for weekend warriors and fams it could be the ticket.

Maybe you could incorporate an adjustable footbed/mount angle for a more natural stance and knee alignment.

I donno...just an idea.




but i guess that is mounting again isn't it?


AND the whole release on a hard fall thing for all styles of boots
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-18-2009, 9:35 PM Reply   
Expounding on scott's idea, if i may

i think something SIMILAR to slingshot's mounting method would work well, but instead the stance adjusting pin could be pulled out completely to release the boot from the board... of course it would be made in such a way that a release of this type wouldn't happen involuntarily ;)
Only problem is that all companies would have to agree on the same method, a pact that most likely will not come easily. I also think that something like this would benefit even the hard core riders, especially when it comes time to demo all the new gear at the beginning of each season... it would make it nearly as easy as a wakeskater trying new gear where all you have to do is grab a new board and jump on it. or simply lace up another pair of shoes not worrying about mounting

BUT, something like this is also stepping away from the baseless-bindings thing and having only a footbed between your feet and the board, however, i don't think enough time has gone by to prove this as a universally agreed upon direction. I for one have a hard time believing that it would really make a difference in control--- similar to the idea that ClosedToe offers more leverage. i just don't see it having a significant effect in this way... until i try it ;)
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-18-2009, 9:46 PM Reply   

quote:


In your opinion what is the biggest problem with wakeboard bindings?




i think another thing that many could agree for all foot wear in general is achieving the most custom fit possible. wide feet, narrow feet, high arch, smaller arch, etc. maybe if there was an equivalent to Sine's custom board making but for bindings. a footbed could be made just FOR YOU... at an extra cost of course.
OR if a binding could somehow be adjust in more of these respects?
Old     (tommmyd)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-18-2009, 9:58 PM Reply   
HEEL LIFT is the only thing I have a problem with...
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-23-2009, 6:50 PM Reply   
maybe i have been thinking bout this a little too much... and it seems discussion has kinda stopped a little for some reason...

I have a more or a design idea in my head right now than specific individual points, so i apologize for that in advance. and if i am just giving some potentially good idea away for free,then so be it. i don't have the necessary cash and stuff to do it myself either the best i have is relations of several degrees of separation on here . maybe an impact can be made nonetheless.

-------------------------------------------------





I am thinking something along the lines of the Liquid Force Vantage and Gator Phantom. i think the strap-type binding has some potential and could be expounded upon and perfected for the benefit of various styles and preferences
Upload

Upload
(judging from the pics i like the phantom's better because the looks, and the second strap looks like it is in a better position and angle for better ankle/heel hold, while the vantage looks to be slightly more forward over the top foot, and they are closed toe w/o going for the limited gear of course)

Anyway...

Closed Toe Solution(s)
AIM: Maintain the benefits(proven or believed) of CT; Warmth and leverage/control, but also gain the advantages of OT; no crushing of toes and the ability to accept a more generous foot size range.

*1. Flex zones or otherwise stretchy material in the toe cap
OR
*2. An Open Toe OUTER-SHELL with a Closed Toe INNER-LINER(I am thinking a removable intuition liner like Slingshot and Co. for better DRYING and replacement IF necessary) (not sure about this preventing the rare foot-out-the-toe-hole thing though)
OR
3. Some sort of padding in the toe box... but this would require a larger toe box and make bindings look more like clown shoes.

Idea for a More Universal and Adjustable Fit
AIM: Achieve a more versatile binding with customizable flexability/stiffness at various points and various riders

1.Flex zones Or Segmented Portions: flex zones can be placed into the side of the binding at the base of the foot to allow the shell of a binding to give when tightening to better take the form of the riders foot, alleviate pressure points while making good contact with the entire foot, ESPECIALLY in a closed toe boot, since the fact of it being closed toe makes it more ridged (even if very slightly) and resists bending as much as an open toe. Segmented sections might do the same trick. this idea might make it a little easier to get into the binding too. (the idea #1 or #2 from the last section may do the trick instead.)
AND
2.A.) Interchangeable Straps of Various Densities/Elasticities: flexible straps, moderately flexible strap, and stiff straps can be interchanged and replaced if necessary to provide a stiff boot or a flexible boot or a combination of both, stiff in the toes and foot but soft and flexible on the upper portion for example. if one breaks or wears out then the strap can be replaced instead of the entire boot.
2.B.) A Ratcheting, or Wheel-Locking Type "Securement": Something that will last longer than even the high end Velcro, but still be quick and easy to get in and out of. if no alternative, then velcro will have to do, at least to prevent "strap-dangle/flaping" besides a potential alternative
AND
3. Upper Boot Flexibility Adjustments: I don't think that a stiff upper strap alone would provide the stiff responsiveness some desire. pockets in the cuffs and tongue to slide a more ridged material into could help. something like you see in the Murray and Byerly boots and such in this function.


OTHER:
Removable Intuition Liner: I'm really fond of this since it seems to be the best way to dry out a boot and prevent smells. I have heard and imagine that the liner can sometimes offer the protection of a shoe while out using a winch or cable. after a crash or drop, keep the liners on to provide a more comfortable short walk back to shore or to wherever

CONCLUSION: ;)
In my opinion, No boot is easier AND faster to get into than strap type boots such as the LF Vantage and GB Phantom, even more so than the CWB Hinged boots. though the hinge is a great idea, the back of a boot will never be able to open as much as the front has potential to. (but the hinge seems to work well with heel hold and not just entry ease and speed, so i'll add that in for credit) I think simplifying the adjust-ability of laces to straps while satisfying both the needs of stiff secure boot users and soft boot users is where it is at.
Old     (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-23-2009, 10:08 PM Reply   
in response to above, they actually did have the ratchet style bindings AND they were closed toe in 98. I bought these back then and had no idea how ahead of the time they were. Weighed a ton but I loved them

Full Tilt Sub Rosa XTC
http://www.wakeworld.com/Boots/FullTilt.asp

You did not come out of these bindings period.
Old     (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-23-2009, 10:53 PM Reply   
i stubbed my toes while landing wake to wake while wakeskating on friday. should i wear open toe shoes? NO. they were a little too big and my feet slipped.

i thought that was funny when it happened and my friends and I were joking about it because all these closed toe binding threads.

get bindings that fit and you wont have a problem. high end wakeboard boots are personal just like snowboard boots.
Old     (tommmyd)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-24-2009, 12:47 AM Reply   
Fix the HEEL LIFT problem that every company has.
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-24-2009, 12:59 AM Reply   
Mitch,
i do know about full tilt's subrosa boots. just about every tech we have now days was done once before, it is just that MORE tech came along to perfect those ideas that were "ahead of their time" like the shane boot was the perfection of the closed toe idea back in the 90's

yes there were closed toes before closed toe
and there were ratchets before the idea above on the subrosa, deep suction and i think the techno vert
there was flexboards before slingshot
there were multi-finned boards before the trip
etc. etc.
but now i think it is time to bring it out again and perfect it.

but the straps don't have to be ratcheting either. i wish i knew the real word for it, but it is like a little floating lever or wheel that locks it in place...similar to the lace locking beads... but different. just whatever fastening idea would work best for straps, including more elastic-like straps, which a ratchet specific design may not work with

i also agree with the sizing correctly thing to prevent jamming, but there were a few comments above where individuals said they sized right and still got injured toes so i am giving them a benefit of a doubt and thinking that maybe the boot is not sized right top to bottom or width wise instead of length wise that is causing it. maybe some more flex zones or segmented areas will help the boot conform more to different feet in these respects. the comment some one made about closed toes not conforming as well over the toes kinda made sense, because of the capped end, so i ran with it a bit.

i am hoping someone could run with some of the ideas above and make them better...OR just in a complete different direction for something better as well and get the thread going again. i thought Chris Witham started a good, interesting thread
)

(Message edited by wakerider111 on March 24, 2009)
Old     (cwitham)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-25-2009, 3:46 PM Reply   
So it seems like a lot of people are saying heel lift, do you mean your heels are lifting INSIDE the boots, or the boots themselves are lifting off the board as you cut toeside? I don't know that I have necessarily experienced that problem so much.
Old     (fuller313)      Join Date: Oct 2006       03-25-2009, 5:23 PM Reply   
If you added an air bladder to the boot you could pump it up until the boot felt tight and secure.
Old     (tommmyd)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-26-2009, 3:02 AM Reply   
HAHA!! I always loved my reebok pumps!!! I would buy a set.
Old     (wakebrdr38)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-26-2009, 5:40 AM Reply   
Three velcro straps are not new technology at all. Universal's had a model with three velcro straps and I always thought they were awesome bakc in the day (99-00). Then in 02 i think they came out with sewn overlays (pretty much before anyone, there were a few i believe) and they had a 3 ZONE lacing system. They had the best fit ever in my opinion. I always made the top loose, tight as I could around the ankle plus the ankle strap, and medium tightness on my toes. They eliminated a lot of the clutter by making the bottom zone and the middle zone out of the same string. The solution to keep your toes from jamming in properly fitted boots is to be able to sinch tight in the middle portion around your ankles. Thats why I believe so many boots back in the day had the straps there on top of laces in many cases. But people always complain about something.

The slingshot boots I bought a size small and molded them in order to get them to fit. I have NO extra movement that I dont want. But again people complain that they take forever to get into. Different strokes for different folks.
Old     (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       03-26-2009, 10:06 AM Reply   
for starters and this can be done now is make more sizes because 9-10 is to vague.they all need to make half sizes and one size like shoes.

so there would be size 8 size 8.5 size 9 size 9.5 size 10 size 10.5 and son on and so forth right now a size 9-10 is basically saying four different foot sizes can fit this one range and thats where the big issues are..they need to make these ot and ct more realistic to the wy we try on our daily boots and shoes and also then one step further all liners shoould be heat fitted..seems to me this would solve a ton of fitting issues right now..
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-26-2009, 10:19 AM Reply   
HEEL HOLD (Base of the boot)
maybe this is a silly idea? but what about a suction cuping base material?

i had a pair of boots that came with my Sage board that had a rubber based protector at the bottom of the bindings instead of a foam and it acted like a major suction cup. i had to pull with a good amount of effort to get them off after taking the bolts off. i bet i could have boarded a bit with just the sheare suction to keep them on.

i'm just not sure if a good enough suction could be made to keep the heels down on some major slayshes? (again just re-inventing here ;))
-------------------------------------------------

restating kevin hoye as well as some of the original intentions of the design idea posted above: making a binding that is super FAST to get into while maintaining a real stiff boot would be great! as fast and easy as the vantage but able to be as supportive as driver boots, cells, or other boots of the sort. Even if old ideas have to be RE_INVENTED (like straps).

takig advantage of the opening of the FRONT of the boot vs the back i think is the way to do it, via straps, a front version of the hinge, or something else entirely new.

probably the only idea of mine above that was anywhere "new" (i know most to all of it was just 're-inventing') was the interchangeable straps of various stiffnesses, but i have heard that suggested before by others, or atleast somethig like it, maybe just more along the lines of replaceable when the velcro wears.

(Message edited by wakerider111 on March 26, 2009)
Old     (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-26-2009, 10:22 AM Reply   
Bill,

That is really the issue. Why should a manufacturer invest so much into a product that really doesn't provide that much of a performance enhancement? I think the wakeboard market is to small to support this type of investment, unless you are willing to pay $800 for a set of bindings!

I think most of us would agree that an open toe boot can be made with just as many features/tech/comfort/support/inhancements as any current closed toe binding, it just would be missing the closed toe. Now you have eliminated the need for so many sizes and all the complexity and expense that comes with it. Heck, I could even deal with my toes getting cold for the few short weeks we ride and the water still has ice on it.

I just don't think the benefit out weighs the cost!
Old     (cpizzle)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-26-2009, 10:32 AM Reply   
How about a hybrid closed toe boot where you have an individual hole for each toe to poke out of in the event that your foot slides forward. That way you still get the much beloved "leverage" from your toes while your little piggies stay safe!!
Old     (cpizzle)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-26-2009, 10:34 AM Reply   
Stay tuned! I'm gonna drill the holes tonight in my cells and I'll let you all know how it turns out!!
Old     (louis_p)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-26-2009, 11:21 AM Reply   
Man, this thread is a trip! I rode for Full Tilt when those XTC bindings came out. I didn't order them for myself at the time but had some sent to the house for my wife, she loved them. Very functional and looked sick on the water. For whatever reason they didn't catch on with the general public at the time. Bindings have come a long way since the bungee straps and wake sandals and believe me those bindings where whack(other than being able to poke). I would like to see a binding release somehow to prevent knee injuries for our sport. I'm not an engineer and have no idea how this would work or if it even could. As far as heel and toe lift each year these areas seem to improve in CT and OT bindings. I currently ride the Phantom Limited edition from Gator. Easy to get in and out of looks sick/supportive not to stiff and is bomb proof. Toe drag from cutting toeside used to bother me but doesn't anymore with CT bindings. As far as sizing goes it can be costly for the factories to generate every size and width to accomodate all riders. Maybe for now if people are stubbing or breaking their toes have two pair of bindings around one CT and one OT switch them out when working on new stuff or fine tuning old, then this might decrease injuries and extend your bindings life.
Old     (wakebrdr38)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-26-2009, 12:08 PM Reply   
Again...Univeral Binding Co. (Neptune) solved baseplate flexing too. They had a dense foam on the bottom of the plate that was actually a lot thicker than the plate only under the heel. So when you tightened down the boots to the board it compressed the foam and it always pusheed the plate up keeping the plate from flexing around. I took the idea to some ultra suctions I had at the time and it worked perfectly eliminating the flex in the base plate almost completely. This is because the plate was alredy flexed up as far as it would go b/c the foam was pushing up, and it would.t flex down because the foam was already compressed. Might add that even with the plate flexed up it was pretty much still flat because the bolts on the binding connection were so tight. It was soooooo simple, and cheap, might cost the manufacturer an extra dollar in foam and glue. You also couldnt use thumb screws cus you had to really tighten them down.

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