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Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 12:09 AM Reply   
We have an 05 EX that got rear ended today. The driver of the other car was going between 25-40 mph when it hit our car. From the outside, it doesn't appear to be very bad. The other car was a grand am driven by a 16 year old.

It seems like the brunt of the impact was to the trailer hitch. You can see that the trailer hitch is about 4 inches lower than it used to be. The bumper is trashed as well as the metal in the bumper. The tailgate is dented pretty good on the lower section. The sheet metal that makes up the bottom front of the trunk is bent upwards. We looked under the car and the two front to back parts of the frame are bent down with a decent crease halfway behind the wheel and the bumper.

I'm trying to figure out how much damage there is with the frame being bent. We tow every now and then and am worried that if they don't replace the frame, it will be weak because of the accident.


I have no idea how expensive it would be to replace the frame and fix the rest of the issues.

My damage guess is 10k, because of the frame damage. Since it's worth 18k, I'm guessing there isn't a chance they'll total it. Too bad since I wanted a Tahoe.
-Daniel
Old    Peter_C (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       03-18-2007, 12:19 AM Reply   
Oh no, that is way over $10,000. Recently my vehicle was rear ended. It did not frame damage, but took out the rear decklid along with the bumper and some electronic controls. They had my car for 42 days, and billed the insurance company $10,000. All the while I was driving a rental car. Try to get them to total it. The insurance company will not like paying for a Chevy Tahoe or something similar at $60 a day, plus repairing your vehicle.

Also even though it sounds like you are ok, if you or other vehicle occupants, feel more than just stiff, please go and see a doctor. I am still screwed up from my car accident.
Old    G. Rios (dreambig)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-18-2007, 12:22 AM Reply   
I hope everyone is fine. with that being said please tell me that was your wifes car because if it wasnt...... well then you love men. by the way most insurance comapanies will call it a complete loss at over 50% of total value. Make sure you choose who gives you the estimate to repair. Call the dealership and ask them who they use that person will usally charge more than abc autobody.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 12:26 AM Reply   
I was actually behind the car by two minutes on a motorcycle. It makes me shudder to think that I could have been rear ended on a motorcycle.

It was my wife, my 2 year old and two of my friends. They all had pain within minutes of the accident...so I'm thinking they'll be very very sore tomorrow. I'm just surprised it bent the frame. That is one strong hitch!
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 12:30 AM Reply   
Yea, that is my wife's car =). I drive a 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 CTD with a nice dent in the tailgate.

Hmm... I've heard total loss is around between 50-80%...not sure what to believe.

Total loss if, Value of car - what they can get for it > cost to repair?

Since the girl had state farm, I'm guessing it's her insurance adjuster that will be taking care of it and not mine.

-Daniel
Old    Peter_C (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       03-18-2007, 12:35 AM Reply   
They will recommend shops to take it too. Do not take it to one of those shops, unless they have a good reputation. The dealership will often give the highest quote, and is also the most likely to quote and repair with factory parts.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 12:36 AM Reply   
Does anyone know how much the frame replacement could cost? 5k, 10k? Am I asking to much to have the frame replaced with it having a crease in it?

-Daniel
Old    G. Rios (dreambig)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-18-2007, 12:44 AM Reply   
take it to the dealership. Use only new parts. Seriously. If she has State Farm your all good bro. They much rather call it a total loss than have to deal with all the headache. Be firm though. Make sure they know your not a pushover. Whatever you do do not cash a check from the insurance company that says final settlement on it unless its the settlement you agreed upon.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 1:30 AM Reply   
Should I get my insurance involved? The one thing I'm worried about is a rental car. My insurance only covers 40/day and it may cost more to rent a replacement SUV/Car. Does their insurance always provide a rental, or does it fall under my insurance?
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 1:31 AM Reply   
Oh yea, and I think our insurance only covers a rental car for 10 or 14 days.
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-18-2007, 6:13 AM Reply   
If they do fix it I'd get rid of it ASAP. I'd also make sure your medical bills are covered, and those of everyone in the vehicle. It kinda sucks, but you might have to get a lawyer to make sure you at least break even with the grief, financial, medical etc. this will cause you and your family, friends. You should all visit the doctor to get checked out. I would definitely call your insureance company and get them involved.
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-18-2007, 6:17 AM Reply   
What would that vehicle look like if it didn't have that hitch on it?
Old    ryan andrews (drewsnautique94)      Join Date: Nov 2006       03-18-2007, 6:47 AM Reply   
scrap it and buy american!!!
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-18-2007, 7:52 AM Reply   
I'd highly doubt it'd need a frame, and if it does it might be gone. Frame rails can be sectioned dending on the extent and location of the damage. Although some states have regulations, and you can't do it. Not sure about where you are at. Here in CA, we can and do, use frame sections when making repairs to frames.

The total proceedure is really simple. Actual Cash Value(ACV) - Salvage < cost to repair, it's a total. Roughly speaking, 75% of KBB private party value.

Is it drivable? If it is, the estimate will probably come in under ACV. Also, totals aren't because of the amount of damage, it's the value of the car. ANYTHING can be fixed, just matters how much someone is willing to spend

On the rental car issue, depends on policy and company. Most have an add on endorsement ,which you pay extra for
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-18-2007, 8:14 AM Reply   
I opened up my work laptop, to see if I can help you out.
The cost of a frame is right at $3K, w/24 hrs labor involved. Labors rates are really high in my area, but that'd be $4800, just to replace the frame.

The lift gate is $500, and around 6 hrs to replace and refinish. That of coarse if can't be repaired, which would be cheaper.

The bumper and absorbers are another $300 give or take. I don't have a price for the reinforcement, but that'd be another $200 on the high end.

The floor pan can be replaced, $116 and 17 hrs labor.

I have just did a really basic write up. Keep in mind I have not seen the vehicle, or the repairablity of current parts, or any hidden damage (and there will be some). I got $8400, without the hitch. That's at $75 an hr labor, and taxes. And replacing everything, which once again may be estimating on the high end.

I couldn't flag a total on this car till about 13000 of repairs. And even then, it might not
Old    Erik (etakk7)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-18-2007, 9:44 AM Reply   
I had a similar collision in a Pontiac Vibe. Trailer hitch absorbed the blow and bent downward 6 inches (along with the frame). Needed new bumper but liftgate was fine. Total cost for bumper and related parts, paint, new hitch and "frame straightening" was only $2200. Not saying that is the ballpark you'd be in, but I thought I'd be getting a new vehicle potentially as well but they apparently can do alot to straighten a frame. I see your point about doing heavy towing after the fact, I would feel less comfortable with that.

We were also hit by a Grand Am at roughly 25-40 mph. You should be able to handle all the logistics (getting your car fixed, medical) through their insurance company for the time being. Just make sure it is to your satisfaction.

(Message edited by etakk7 on March 18, 2007)
Old    Mattt (motorcitymatt)      Join Date: Feb 2007       03-18-2007, 10:26 AM Reply   
Use it as an anchor!!!

Second that BUY AMERICAN!!!
Old    Sam Aikele (atropine)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-18-2007, 11:14 AM Reply   
I'm surprised a Kia Sorrento has a real frame at all. I would have guessed it to be unibody construction.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 11:15 AM Reply   
Thanks Jeff. Is the lift gate really only $500? I thought it was $1000 to $1500.

So, if $8500 is about right, it sounds like a fix job to me. Dang, I was hoping to buy a tahoe =)

I woke up this morning and took some pictures. It really doesn't look bad. The truck frame took most of the impact. The lift gate isn't that bad, but the bottom part is bent a decent amount.

Things I noticed.

1. Lift gate
2. Plastic bumper and metal behind it.
3. A rod is bent just beyond the spare tire (I'm not sure what it's called)
4. The floor pan is bent
5. The hitch didn't seem to be damaged, just the frame. Of course, who knows how strong it is now.

I think if the impact would have been higher up on the vehicle the exterior damage would have been greater. But as you can see the frame is what took the hit from the grand am's low front end.


And to those talking about medical, we'll see later today how everyone is feeling. My buddy has been in major accidents and this one hurt him bad because of what he's been through. I think he said he's been air lifed three times!

Does the Vibe have a truck frame or is it Unibody?

Again, I think I wanted this to be a total so we could get rid of it.

You can see pieces of her car in the hitch
Upload
You can see here how it bent the hitch down and everything else up
Upload
This is the rod that is bent. I'm wondering if my rear wheel toe is messed up now. It almost looks like they are angled a bit.
Upload
Here is the crease in the frame.
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Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-18-2007, 11:31 AM Reply   
I certainly think it could go higher than that. I added in nothing for a body and frame/structural pull, any suspension, or secondary damage. It probably needs all four of those things.

Secondary damage is what happens with the force other places in the vehicle. In this kinda hit I'd look in both quarterpanels. There could also be something lurking in the roof. You have a decent amount of movement in the frame, and the floor bend. Where did the rest of the force move? Do your door gaps line? How do the doors open and close?

The lift gate is $500 for the shell, then 6 hrs to put everything in and paint. Just looking at that picture, it may just require repair.

Tough to say total. I'd lean towards fix just seeing what I see, but you never know. As you can see, things can get rather complex, and add up quickly. If that car was 2 years older, it'd probably be gone
Old    Robb Davis (boarder_x)      Join Date: Mar 2006       03-18-2007, 11:34 AM Reply   
I had an F150, which had similar damage. He bend both sides of the frame.

At first they told me they were going to just replace both frame rails, both rear quarter panels... etc.

After they ran the numbers, they decided to total it. I ended up getting more than I paid for the thing, after having it for a year, and putting 20K miles on it.

Be patient, get your own quote, then let the insurance see it. They ended up being very fair with me.

Deal with the kids insurance directly. If you go through your insurance, you will get screwed. This is what happens, his INS, gives yours a quote. They then take a cut, and give you a quote, if you take it, your INS, keeps the difference. Cut out the middle man, and then make sure you have an exhaustive list of all the features of your vehicle.

I hope everything works out well!!!!
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2007, 11:59 AM Reply   
Both sides of my frame look like the above pictures.

I checked the door gaps. The right side you can definitely see that it got a little closer and the door is harder to open and close. The right side is the side of the car with more damage.

The Left door...it almost seems like the quarter panel moved an 1/8" out to the left of the car...I attached a picture. And this may be a stretch. Could also be KIA fit and finish, but I don't remember seeing that. The door opens fine

Funny thing is, when I pulled up, the gas cap door was flipped open from the impact =)

Upload
Upload
Old    cosmocat (treycleaton)      Join Date: Mar 2005       03-18-2007, 4:12 PM Reply   
Sucks about your Sorento, my wife has one. It actually has a truck ladder frame construction. And for all you haters, there is a reason Asian manufactures are grabbing more of the market....that's all I'll say about that. How much do you tow with your Sorento (or....did you tow?)
Old    mendo247            03-18-2007, 5:39 PM Reply   
if she has state farm insurance, youll will be well taken care of.. personally if you dont have a prefered shop i would not hesitate to take it to one of their shops.. they just cut the number of shops on their program by about 50% or so, the remaining shops are basically the best of the best.. sf will most likely want to use brand new parts on your vehicle where 90% of other companies would be throwing a bunch of a/m parts at it..
Old    eric fox (fox)      Join Date: Jul 2002       03-19-2007, 9:56 AM Reply   
You have a right to be made whole. Ask for factory parts. I have State Farm and when I have been in accidents, they have always been good about getting factory repairs made. Even if they would total the car, I think you still have the right to aske them to fix it too. Don't be worried about getting your insurer involved. You have paid them to protect your assets...make them work for that money!
Old    Tim (suckbuthavefun)      Join Date: May 2003       03-19-2007, 12:47 PM Reply   
Do NOT mess with your insurance company UNLESS you aren't getting what you need from State Farm.

As far as the rental car, State Farm must foot the bill as they need to make you whole. If they try and give you a little rice burner, tell them that the car their insured hit had a hitch and that you expect to have a rental that has one as well.
Old    eric fox (fox)      Join Date: Jul 2002       03-19-2007, 7:35 PM Reply   
Keep in mind most rental companies do not allow towing with the rental car.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-20-2007, 9:08 AM Reply   
First estimate was 3,300. They said they pull the body and frame back into shape. I'll check with another company.

-Daniel
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-20-2007, 6:35 PM Reply   
Does it seem responable to pull the frame rails back into shape? They say they'll get it within factory spec and it will be as strong as before.
Old    LimoTinted (ridininmd)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-20-2007, 6:44 PM Reply   
Yep body shops spend alot of money on frame machines. The one in the body shop at the dealership I work at uses lasers and mirrors to measure the specs within .001" pretty cool stuff. I don't know about it being as strong as before though. I would work their insurance company for some depreciation also. Frame repair is going to show on a carfax for you car now and that's going to make it difficult to sell and hurt trade in values if the dealer checks.
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-20-2007, 6:56 PM Reply   
No issues pulling the frame. Stand alone frames are made of mild steal, and are very receptive to reshaping. Like Pete said, the machines they got are awesome. They can do alot of things. If they are able to pull everything back, 3300 sounds right, maybe on the low end by my guesstament.

As far as the carfax entry, good luck getting them to pay you for depreciation based on a carfax entry. I might agree w/it, but most insurance companies wouldn't. No way I get my supervisor to sign off on that, regardless of how I word it.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-20-2007, 7:21 PM Reply   
Well, that sucks. It doesn't seem right that the value is going to be reduced and I just have to live with it. Isn't there something called diminished value?
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-20-2007, 8:52 PM Reply   
There is diminished value. Some states might make insurance companies pay, some won't. Insurance is a weird thing. There really isn't any clear cut way of doing things, even if that is the way it should work. States have diffrent rules, insurance companies have diffrent proceedures. I agree w/you about the value, but I was just saying, in this state (CA) and w/the company I work for diminshed value would never happen.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       03-20-2007, 9:24 PM Reply   
Not all "stand alone" frames are mild steel. Mild steel frames are the minority nowadays. Most are high strength alloy's and should not be repaired depending on the severity of damage. Each manufacturer has guidlines for repairing. It will NOT be the same after repair either. No matter what type of steel is used, once it's bent, (damaged) and then bent back, (repaired) the molecules in the steel are no longer lined up the same. It's called "work hardening", and will affect how the steel reacts in future impacts. Do not listen to everything insurance adjusters tell you, they're mostly just number crunchers, most have no experience repairing wrecked vehicles. People have to educate themselves about collision repair because the insurance companies don't always have your best interest, or your vehicles best interest, in mind. I have twenty three years in the trade as a refinish and collision repair tech.
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-20-2007, 10:00 PM Reply   
Sparky, I won't try to match wits with you. If you have been around for that long, you probably know more than I do. But to call adjuster's number crunchers is like calling body men wrench monkeys.

Adjusters follow manufacture protocal for the individual vehicle builders, and what the individual body shops have to say about individual repairs. I was simply trying to help someone who was unclear about the process.

I may have taken your comments wrong, but I wasn't trying to soften the guy up for an insurance point of view. Simply trying to help. Sorry if you think all us adjusters are number crunching, non mechanical nerds.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-20-2007, 10:58 PM Reply   
When I hear from the body shops that the repair will be as strong as original, I just trust that they are telling me the truth. I thought it wouldn't be as strong. The one person I talked to today said they heat up the steel and blah blah.

I called up a few dealerships today and asked if I could trade my recently wrecked car into them. I sent pictures and said that the damage was going to be repaired by the insurance company.

They all said that the value they would give me is going to drop from about 13k to closer to 5k based on the frame rails being bent. They will get back to me tomorrow with more accurate numbers.
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-21-2007, 2:34 PM Reply   
Get it fixed, then trade. You are going to get an insurance company to pay for a quality job, and if the shop is quality, it'll be a good job. If you trade the car in, you probably won't notice a diffrence in trade values after it was fixed right
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       03-21-2007, 8:57 PM Reply   
...if it shows up on car fax, it will most certainly affect trade-in value, are you kidding Jeff? And no offense but an insurance company to pay for a quality job? That is a very broad statement that really comes down to what company. As we know more and more companies are jumping on the after market parts bandwagon... and the parts are mostly garbage. CAPA certified? We like to call it "CRAPA" certified. Jeff, If you can honestly say that your primary interest is to repair wrecked vehicles correctly even if it means going against your companies protocol than your in the minority for adjusters and my hats off to you...
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-21-2007, 11:44 PM Reply   
I'm not sure if it will show up on carfax. I'm guessing it would have to be the insurance company that would report it. Unless the DMV reports that it was in an accident.
Old    andy zarlengo (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       03-22-2007, 12:22 AM Reply   
Ive personally seen mangled cars be rebuilt and never show up on carfax.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       03-22-2007, 7:36 PM Reply   
Andy, you ain't in Cali.
Old    mendo247            03-23-2007, 8:40 AM Reply   
ive personally seen car fax ran on several "large" repair jobs we have done and they are as clean as a whistle.. im not sure where they get their info but IMO its a complete rip off, and dealers just use it as a tool for selling used cars..

ive been told that they do get info from dmv.. your supposed to go to dmv and fill out a form if you get in an accident in cali but when people ask i usually advise against it..
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-24-2007, 11:48 AM Reply   
I've talked to a lawyer about diminished value and he says he thinks he can get me about 2k. Doesn't seem fair to me. I wish carfax didn't exist.
Old    Daniel Vance (mrdenial)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-26-2007, 10:45 PM Reply   
I'm going to ask the insurance company to buy my Kia. Not total, just buy. This may be better for them and me as it will avoid a diminished value claim.

Is it advised to get a lawyer involved on the pain and suffering part? My wife is feeling more pain as each day goes on.
Old    Erik (etakk7)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-26-2007, 11:28 PM Reply   
Daniel, as I said, our Pontiac Vibe was in a similar accident, and after a frame rebend it was only $2300 to fix. I just checked my Carfax, and it said what was listed on the Police report, "light damage reported". I just had a month free on Carfax and looked up over 30 cars and trucks that I was considering buying. I never saw anything other than "light damage reported", "moderate damage reported," or "heavy damage reported." I'd bet that in all situations (at least in MN) it is what the officer on the scene writes in his report. The only way your car is going to be worth any less on a trade to a dealer is if you show heavy damage, which would really, really surprise me hearing your story and seeing your pictures. I think you are overreacting to the whole Carfax and value thing. The only concern you should maybe have is the integrity of the frame for heavy towing, and an expert could attest to that. I would think whoever does your repair and/or the paying insurance company would offer a warrany on the repairs.
Old    LimoTinted (ridininmd)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-27-2007, 8:27 AM Reply   
Mendo247, we (dealers) don't really like carfax either. They sell themselves as alot more than they are to get people to ask for one when they buy a car, just forces us to pay.

Like the commercial they have in the doctors office, where the guy says any sputtering, stalling? A carfax won't show that! It's nothing but a DMV records search. What shows on there and how much detail will vary from state to state.

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