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Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-03-2007, 4:14 PM Reply   
Engine background/ discussion for diagnostic and evaluation purposes.



1. The Correct Craft boat engine (454 “reverse rotation”) started missing badly while in use and lost power. Lifters were collapsed and clattering. (The engine was reportedly “rebuilt” a year earlier by a prior owner’s mechanic, but there is no documentation of how extensive this rebuild was.)



2. Investigation as to cause revealed that is was being operated with quite a lot of rainwater accumulation present in the bilge. The oil pan was definitely well into the bilgewater depth in this “V-hulled” boat.



3. The bilge-water also had a large amount of engine oil in it. A real mess!



4. Checking of the engine oil by dipstick revealed that it was very low, and what oil remained in the engine was badly contaminated with water.



5. I changed the oil, and restarted engine (at idle on the trailer at the boat ramp). Clattering lifters remained and engine ran poorly. I added a GUNK brand engine oil additive to try to free the lifters, and idled for another 15 minutes without success. Lifters were still collapsed and clattering, and the engine ran poorly.



6. I took the boat back to our house and removed all spark plugs and performed a compression test twice on each cylinder, (looking for possible leaking head gasket). Compression not great, generally around 125 psi, but no “low” compression on side by side cylinders, leading me to believe that head gasket was not the root cause (recognizing that a gasket could possibly fail between oil and water passages, but remain intact between cylinders---possible, but unlikely).



7. I am puzzled because I cannot see any source of oil leaking into the bilge (i.e. looking for “cracked’ engine block) The intake manifold has not yet been removed to look for crack in the intake manifold “valley” area. A crack in this area would allow water to get into the engine oil, but I don’t see how engine oil could get into the bilge, so I am reasoning that this is not the situation. Similarly, a rusted out exhaust manifold or riser might allow water into the cylinder(s), and some amount s could conceivably get into the oil, but I don’t think oil could get into the bilge from that point, so again I am dismissing that as a probable cause. In my reasoning, I keep coming back to paragraph 9, below.



8. KEY SYMPTOM, I think: Water got into engine oil and oil got out of engine into the bilge.



9. SUSPECT? Remote oil drain fitting/hose? Could this be a possible (or likely) source of the “two-way’ leakage. It appears to be original equipment, therefore like around 20 years old.



10. QUESTION: Does the engine have to be pulled to remove and replace this remote oil drain fitting/hose? If the hose were cut off of the fitting, could the fitting then be removed and replaced with conventional pan drain plug without engine removal?



This weekend, before taking it to the mechanic, I want to drain the engine oil; put in fresh; run with clean paper towels under the engine and remote oil drain hose and look for any oil leak in the area of the oil pan or remote oil drain. At the same time we would observe the engine oil to see if it was getting contaminated by engine cooling water. If the bilge is dry and water still gets into oil, we would know that the source is cooling water; indicating (in my opinion) cracked block or a possible gasket problem. If oil gets onto the clean paper underneath the engine, we would be confirming oil leak at pan/remote drain area.



QUESTION: If remote oil drain is the problem, then I believe that engine is still serviceable with new lifters (and pushrods); IS THIS LIKELY SO?.
Old     (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       05-03-2007, 4:38 PM Reply   
The bad news is it lost power while you were running and then you found a low level of water contaminated oil. Regardless of the cause of the water/oil mix I would think that you will need a cam and lifters and it would be wise to change all the bearings.
Check the valve lift with a dial indicator. You can get great compression readings with shot exhaust lobes, and damaged intakes. Your bearings might be OK but I have blown up good pieces with that assumption.
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-03-2007, 4:49 PM Reply   
the remote oil drain is just threaded into the oil pan just like a bolt would be. what was the other question? how is your shortblock?
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-03-2007, 4:59 PM Reply   
Basically trying to establish whether the engine is worth going through or spend 3.5K on a remanufactured short block.....keep in mind value of the boat is around 10k and labor is not yet factored in.
Old     (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-03-2007, 5:03 PM Reply   
If you're planning on keeping the boat in the long term you should go with a new block
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-03-2007, 6:17 PM Reply   
3.5k on a shortblock seems way way way high to me. i had a 351 longblock built for 1700
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-03-2007, 6:53 PM Reply   
Its "remanufactured" longblock by Rhino and is about half the price of Jasper.
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-03-2007, 7:13 PM Reply   
i found a local shop that builds all the local cigerette. hot rod boats and i had no reusable block or heads. jasper was no help to me.
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-03-2007, 7:18 PM Reply   
wow it must be way more expensive to build a bb chevy.is your short block wasted? or just upper end?
http://www.rebuiltmarineengines.com/catalog.html
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-03-2007, 7:23 PM Reply   
http://www.rebuiltautoengines.com/marines-home.html
last motor on page
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-03-2007, 8:17 PM Reply   
Thanks 88, I checked them out and still might go with them, Rhino has no core charge and free shipping and a much better warranty.....all said and done the differene in price is about 500 bucks.

What I am wondering with this post is whether I should invest money in having a mechanic look at the engine and potentially fix it, or go with the new long block.
Old     (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       05-03-2007, 8:36 PM Reply   
Mike, I'd say that the engine would be in excellent shape for a rebuild. If you get it apart a good engine shop can decide what parts you need to put in and what has to be replaced. I've seen car engines with over 200,000 miles that you could decide to blot back together and low mileage that you need to completely remachine. The "big block" is a lot more to rebuild that any "small block" just because there are so few of them in relative terms.

Thinking of the oil problem there could be numerous causes for oil in the bilge area including leaks from things like the remote drain. Also front or rear main seals on the crank, gasket leaks, blow by from crank case ventilation etc.
The water in the oil could be from a head gasket (likely if you've overheated at some point), from a crack in the block or head (likely if you didn't winterize and it's been frozen), condensation (really unlikely) or from water leaking in from the bilge area. When operating the crankcase is pressurized to not then but if it sat with a full bilge you might get some. Normally it would stay below the oil so the water would have to be above the oil level to get the pressure to come in and sit for a long time to get any quantity.
There is also the possibility that the engine failed and pieces cracked the block. I would not think it would turn over fast enough to get a compression test if that's the case.

My recommendation would be to take your complete motor to a quality engine builder and let them figure out what needs to be done.

Keep in mind that I'm not there, so please feel free to completely ignore anything I say. I'm just making guesses.
Good Luck
Old     (luchog)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-03-2007, 9:05 PM Reply   
take it apart, check if it can be rebuilt, and if not send it and get the remanufactured.
Old     (wakescene)      Join Date: Feb 2001       05-03-2007, 9:10 PM Reply   
IMO...Rebuild that big block!
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       05-03-2007, 10:59 PM Reply   
Hmmm, $10k boat...

Grab a 454 out of a junkyard 80's Impala $400-500

Pull the cam out of your existing motor and have it reground and stuff it in the new motor.

Pull the distributor out of your existing motor and plug in the junkyard motor.

Now it will run reverse rotation.

Move the marine components from the old motor to the junkyard motor. Including manifolds etc.

It's a big block, even if it doesn't make as much power as the original you will still have plenty of power.

For less than a $1k investment you are boarding.

Sell the old motor to a rebuilder for gas money...
Old     (spoonman)      Join Date: Aug 2005       05-04-2007, 7:52 AM Reply   
I agree with Mlkeski. If you take the motor out bbefor you figure out what caused the problem how will you know what to fix? Smallcracks in block/head/intake may be tough/ expensive to find.

There are too many things that could have happened but cannot be proven to risk putting money into that motor
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-04-2007, 11:37 AM Reply   
So is the concensus here to NOT have a mechanic go through the engine?
Old     (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-04-2007, 3:15 PM Reply   
have it checked pull the heads your short block may be fine. have the heads rebuilt and go for it.
Old     (jmanolinsky)      Join Date: Dec 2005       05-04-2007, 5:42 PM Reply   
Geez, find out what's wrong with it first. Then, if the block is good, fix it.
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-04-2007, 8:45 PM Reply   
Geez 90 dollars an hour labor to find out adds up.

Was really trying to find out if anyone had any theories on the cause/solution.
Old     (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       05-04-2007, 9:51 PM Reply   
It sounds like it was your remote drain line. It might be something else. Take the remote drain line off completely and check it and the fittings thoroughly. If there are any cracks or openings you could assume that that is it. If not, look for some other external source of water, like the dipstick.
If you can't find anything you're going to need crack testing in the heads and/or the block. When it gets taken apart they may find an obvious problem.
Did it always use lots of oil?
Did it recently get a chance to freeze?
Did it recently, or ever, get overheated past 220 or run without water?
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-05-2007, 9:02 AM Reply   
Unfortuneately I cant answer any of these questions, I bought the bought out of state advertised as "50 hours on a rebuild" and used it for 2 months when this happened.

The temperature light did come on when this happened, and may have ran a few minutes that way.....but I cant recall the temperature (off the top of my head it was a bit over 180).

Tomorrow we are going to do the "paper towel" test as planned, I will report back.
Old     (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       05-05-2007, 10:44 AM Reply   
just a side note
we had an 86 barefoot nautique with the 454 and had it rebuilt, you have to put the pistons in backwards because of the reverse rotation, my friend "reminded the shop"...and they still screwed it up and put them in wrong, he had to go take the block back to the shop and have them flipped around...
as far as whether its worth rebuilding...a mechanic can tell you but it might cost to find out, it most likely is rebuildable...did they have any paperwork on the "50 hrs on a rebuild" ???warranty? can you go to the shop that did the rebuild?
Old     (spiff454)      Join Date: Sep 2005       05-05-2007, 11:29 AM Reply   
Hi, your motor might not be toast. You are not getting oil pressure to the top of the block. You might have a partially clogged oil pick-up screen in the bottom of your oil pan. Do you have oil pressure at idle? you should have at least 10 lbs. 180 degrees is not hot for an engine. if you were at 230 degrees, andthe engine was pinging, then you might worry. Perform an oil pressure test first. Thanks
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       05-05-2007, 5:36 PM Reply   
One of the 454's we used to run in a drag boat had a strong propensity to turn oil into a milkshake. We tore it down to the block 4 times, tried every gasket known to man and still did not find a solution. Finally out of frustration we took it to the motor builder and had him bore and deck the block, deck the heads and check all mating surfaces for clearances, rebuild in the process. $2k later we had no more milkshake oil.

The remote oil filter is likely the source for the oil in the bilge, the rear main seal is another good candidate. I don't believe the remote oil filter could be the source of the water in the block, the hoses are under pressure, not vacuum.

After reading bftskir's post about the pistons I retract my recommendation on the junkyard motor. Instead pull the pistons, hone the block, install new rings and bearings, deck the heads & do a valve job or just replace the heads with rebuilds. New or rebuilt cam (reverse spec), new oil pump. then re-assemble it carefully.

Lots of options depending on your mechanical skill and time availability.
Old     (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       05-06-2007, 10:03 AM Reply   
well?
did it leak oil on the paper towel test?
the oil in your bilge might have just been spilled there or from another source?
also...this a long shot...once a guy i know grabbed his red gas jug and poured it in...turned out he grabbed diesel...the boat ran a ways then made a god aweful sound like all the lifters were sticking...could your gas be contaminated?

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