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Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-19-2008, 9:01 PM Reply   
I am looking for advise on batteries and amps for my sound system. First off I'm a novice to sound systems and technically lacking, I have my local sound shop that does my installs and makes recommendations on how it all should be set up.

Here is a breakdown of what I have presently and am going to have installed.

Presently-
4 Polk 6.5 DBA'S & (1) 8" JLA sub all being powered by a 4 channel kenwood amp.

Adding-
Pair of Fusion T Series combos tower speakers and I was to told to power them with a JLA 4300 amp for max RMS.

So, am I going to need to add a battery to run 2 amps and 11 speakers? and if so should I go with the yellow tops which say they are for sound systems and accessories or the blue top which is made for marine applications? The yellow tops seem to be running $25-35 cheaper than the blue tops?

Recommendations? ideas on amps for powering the Fusions to their maximum capacity?

I'd like to have a heads up before I go to the sound shop and get the royal screwing.
Old     (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       01-20-2008, 12:21 AM Reply   
I've got some good advice call me back fool.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-20-2008, 5:54 AM Reply   
What kind of battery do you have now...std wet-cell lead acid, gel-cell like an optima, or an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat)?

If you are going to tie the two together, to be charged off the alt, I would recommend you go with the same type or buy 2 new ones. These three batteries do not charge at the same rate, and you may be left with an undercharged battery if you mix types.
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-20-2008, 9:34 AM Reply   
Matt,

I'll call you ASAP.

Tige Mike, Right now I have a single walmart MAXX battery (std wet-cell lead acid), but I know I will have to buy 2 of the same kind of batteries to connect together. Okay now that you know the lay out where do I go from here.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-20-2008, 9:51 AM Reply   
Kinetik -> 1 HC2400 = 2 optima blue tops

If you stay with optima seems as most use the blue top.

(Message edited by johnsvt on January 20, 2008)
Old     (soundbox)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-20-2008, 10:30 AM Reply   
Kinetik
Old     (wireman)      Join Date: Sep 2007       01-20-2008, 5:30 PM Reply   
Steve, The spec. sheets for both the yellow top and blue top are the same. The only difference between them is the blue top has the 5/16 studs for attaching accessories. This I what I found when I asked the same question to the Optima rep.
Old     (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       01-21-2008, 6:46 AM Reply   
We did yellow/blue tops (really same battery just yellow does not have side terminals) for two years in a row and both years they went bad. We have been running Odyssys now (similar to Kinetic) and seem to be the only way to go if you are running a big stereo and lights. I run two 1500's and it is impossible to drain these things. With the two it is similar to running 4.5 optimas and they are the same size and just a few bucks more. Go with Kinetic or Odyssys. I have been told that Kinetics have a shorter warranty and also are not designed to be a starting battery though and can shorten the life if you do use them for that. Not sure if it is true, but that is why I went with Odyssy. Good luck...
Old     (99xstar99)      Join Date: Nov 2007       01-21-2008, 9:01 AM Reply   
I have a Kinetic HC1800 that is my starting battery and i run my stereo off of it with a PDX 1000.1 and 2 150.2 and i can play my stereo turned up very loud for a couple of hours and it still starts right up. You can go to Million buy.com and get one like mine for $180, regular $370. They have all of the Kinetic's on sale.
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-21-2008, 9:03 AM Reply   
So are you guys saying 1 Kinetik HC2400 would be all I would need to power 2 amps and 11 speakers as well as they are better than the Optima's?

On a sidebar any other Ideas on the amp for the Fustion T-Series combos? All I have heard from a couple of folks is the JLA 4300.

Let me know your thoughts and advise.
Old     (olskooltige)      Join Date: Mar 2007       01-21-2008, 9:29 AM Reply   
There are Optima alternatives (gels that are cheaper) from Exide that are dual use (starting and deep cycle). Little better CCA and nice AH ratings. Optima isn't an end all be all of batteries. There are a limited number of battery manufacturers globally (Johnson Controls makes Optima). Odyssey is another gel style that is popular but pricey.

No matter which you pick, gels seem to be the better choice in marine use. Mine hold up to cold better than a wet.

(Message edited by olSkoolTige on January 21, 2008)
Old     (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       01-21-2008, 10:18 AM Reply   
Steve (olskooltige),
Odyssy batteries are actually dry cell, like a kinetik if I am not mistaken.... http://www.odysseyfactory.com/

I just called the Odyssey rep and he lowered the price for me over the phone and dropped them off at a Baxter Auto Parts for me to pick up. I think I spent $224 per battery. I will never go back to an optima for this type of use. Gel batteries are hard to bring back to life once you drain them completely...
I am sure there are more knowledgeable people on here about batteries, but that has been my experience...

(Message edited by tyler97217 on January 21, 2008)
Old     (olskooltige)      Join Date: Mar 2007       01-21-2008, 11:17 AM Reply   
I'm not real sure. I guess they are spiral and not gel though now that I think of the advertising on them. Either way they are super massed produced and seem to have a higher than normal customer non satisfaction.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-21-2008, 11:55 AM Reply   
Ill talk about 3 Types of Battery's
There's tones more, new stronger more powerfull battery come out each and almost every day.
#1 Gell Cell
#2 Flooded battery (wet cell)
#3 AGM spiral wound (optima)
#4 AGM traditional

AGM stand for Absorbed Glass Matt. Optimas are unique in that the "Glass Mat" is curled into a circle kind of like a cinimanon roll. There is 6 roll's in a D-31 ya know a traditional size Optima 55 amp hrs D-31 has 71 Amp hrs I think the D-34's Have a extra 2 rolls. Any who, Each and every battery company will tell you his or hres is better for this or that reason Bla Bla Bla, It could be ture I don't know. Its hard to do the Pepsi challange with batterys because One persons Groupe 31 is some how a bigt bigger or smaller than the next persons groupe 31 battery. Im still waiting 4 someone to do a head's up Side by side
test showing how this batterys will outlast the next. You wont so my advice is choose a battery this way.

IMO AGM is the way to go for starting and stereo.
They can be mounted in any location upside down or what ever and vibration Somthing Golf carts (flooded Battery's) dont like is not a problem.
Golf carts "Trojan's" are super cheep and can be found anywhere and offer great band 4 buck. However adding water to them all the time is a Joke IMO. That little problem can be taken care of it you really wanna run them.
What ever battery you decide to run you have to
make sure you have a alternator or a smart charger attached to them to get them up to full charge they way they like. A programed charge routine
Thats a whole anoter thread.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-21-2008, 12:25 PM Reply   
1 kinetik hc2400 = 128ah, also the kinetik has lower internal resistance which means they are easier on altenators.

(Message edited by johnsvt on January 21, 2008)
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-21-2008, 5:36 PM Reply   
Well I guess I'll be talking about Kinetik to my audio guys even though they sell Optima's.

Still no other advice on the amp for the tower speakers? JLA 4300 is the way to go??

Thanks for all the input fellas!
Old     (soundbox)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-21-2008, 6:56 PM Reply   
I have been more than impressed with the Kinetics. I think they will be a good pick.

Can I ask which T series speakers you are planning on? 3-way/6.5/5.25?? Is there a reason why you have your heart set on these? I'm only asking because the last I checked Fusion was still using a standard Diamond speaker that was engineered for a vehicle door, not a boarder at 80ft or the UV environment. If you are in the price range of the Fusion 3 way set up you should SERIOUSLY consider Pro Audio (Wetsounds, Bullet Hollow Points, NVS.....)

The JL A4300 is an excellent amp for the money and will give you great sound and adjustability compared to other amps in that range. It will for sure do the job if you are going to be using the 5.25 or 6.5 set ups.
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-21-2008, 8:07 PM Reply   
Ben,

I got a hella deal ($599) on a brand new pair of Fusion T-series 3 way combo's in chrome from the guys at Active Wake, they matched Wakesides discontinued price on the black ones and upgraded me to the chrome ones because of a shipping error!
I'm looking to go into my local sound shop loaded with a little knowledge, so I don't get taken to the bank.

Everyones else,
Just so that I understand 1 Kinetik HC2400 will be all I need to power my entire system? Grant is always very knowledgeable with electronics and he is recommending the optimas, so I'm a little torn. Keep the recommendations coming in!

Thanks again to all of you for the information.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-21-2008, 8:15 PM Reply   
Yes one kinetik could do the job. However, how much time just hangin are you going to do? If you think you are going to do a lot of listening with the motor off then think about getting 2 - hc1800's.
Old     (soundbox)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-21-2008, 10:04 PM Reply   
Steve- That is a serious deal. I will not argue with that but just keep in mind that the speakers you are getting were not engineered to do what tower speakers are intended to do, reach the boarder.
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-22-2008, 8:19 AM Reply   
Ben,

Are you saying at 65'-75' off I won't be able to hear the music at all?

I generally spend most of the time chilling around the boat so i'm no too disappointed. I guess well see how it all plays out.

As for the JLA 4300 this seems to be the preferred amp of choice, so I guess thats what I'm going with, the guys at my local sound shop will like that since they sell JLA.

Thanks for the support and input.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-22-2008, 8:25 AM Reply   
You will be able to hear just won't be as loud or clear vs. an HLCD.
Old     (lukeduke95)      Join Date: May 2002       01-22-2008, 4:44 PM Reply   
Hey Ewing,

How do you like the Kinetic battery? I had a blue top die on me last year and that leaves me with 3. I don't really want to have a couple old ones and a couple new ones so I figured I would look at other batteries also.

The kinetic 2400 is sounding great.
Avg price for a blue top is $150 @ 55ah. 10x6.8x8 44lbs
With the Kinetic at $250 @ 128ah. 13x6.7x8 67lbs
I can get 18 more amp hours in less space for $50 cheaper.

I just wonder about them as far as boat use and durability.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-22-2008, 6:18 PM Reply   
I like the kinetik better technology than the optima. Here is what I was told is wrong with an optima. Optima wraps the matt to tight and the cells tend to internally short due to vibration. I put 171 trouble free hours on my kinetik batteries this year. I also figured if Tim White(owner of wetsounds) is using them they are probably a good battery.
Old     (soundbox)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-22-2008, 8:03 PM Reply   
Steve- You will for sure be able to hear the Fusions while riding. They will be working hard and the people in the boat will be hearing it much louder than you. I'm not trying to talk you out of taking advantage of that great deal, I just like people being happy with what they get and knowing all of the options available. I know that you will be happy with the kinetic and its ability to hold up to the boat / high current stereo environment. Happy Boating.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-22-2008, 9:31 PM Reply   
The people in the boat will be near deafened with proaudio stuff as well.
Old     (soundbox)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-22-2008, 10:03 PM Reply   
The proaudio stuff has more directional characteristics and will project more out to the boarder (tower designed speaker vs. door designed speaker). Think of this situation. You have a friend in the boat with you and another friend on the dock. You need to call to the friend on the dock. You can call to him by making a funnel with your hands to the side of your mouth or yell as loud as you can with out your hands. What way is going to get the the friend on the dock and what way is going to deafen the friend next to you.

Thats the first time I've explained the Horn in HLCD (horn loaded compression driver) like that. Let me know if it makes sense or if it is an incorrect way of explaining it.

The standard Diamond, JL, Kicker, Polk... dome tweeter is made to disperse out to your ears when it is mounted in the door so it will also disperse down into the interior when they are mounted on the tower.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-23-2008, 5:48 AM Reply   
IMO Kinetic batteris are overkill. Golf cart batteries are the only way to go unless the batteries will be mounted in a non traditional way. Golf cart batteries are designed to take a pounding. you'll get roughly 225 amp hours for less than $150.
Old     (lukeduke95)      Join Date: May 2002       01-23-2008, 8:08 AM Reply   
I need to mount them in a non-traditional way. They will be on their side, and I don't quite have enough room otherwise.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-23-2008, 8:19 AM Reply   
I understand how the HLCD's work but don't agree they aren't blaring in the cabin. The systems I've heard with them are loud as hell in the cabin.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-23-2008, 10:16 AM Reply   
Are golf cart batteries wet cell? The ones I looked at were. I didn't want to have to worry about refilling and charging issues. However that is a lot of battery for the money.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-23-2008, 10:17 AM Reply   
I think almost all tower speakers are loud in the cabin. I just think the pro audio puts more sound out to the rider.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-23-2008, 10:33 AM Reply   
Golf cart's are Wet Cell.
Golf carts are 6v you need 2 6v golf cart batterys linked together to get a 12v battery.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-23-2008, 10:56 AM Reply   
No offense but if popping a cap off a battery and filling/checking every couple of months is a cumbersome chore, boat ownership is probably not for you. And as far as charging, you cna have more potential charging issues with gel/AGM batts.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       01-23-2008, 11:06 AM Reply   
Should I be charging my blue tops? I have never charged them in almost 3 years with no issues.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-23-2008, 11:31 AM Reply   
Sam: Most people mount the batterys in a locating that getting to them or adding water to them is a pain: I agree adding watter to your battery's is no big deal. Its just one more chore that you can add to the ever increasing list of things to do before you get out on to the water. When I add or suguest a product I would like to think one of the things that make this product better than the next is taking one more of thoes chore's away.

There is a product that attaches to the top's of your Golf cart batterys. It replaces the stock cap's. It give a nipple that a rubber hose attaches to and you run the hoses to a plastic water bottle. Its a remote way of checking the battery level with out having to look into your battery. It looks like a windshield fluid bottle on your car with a level line on it so you can tell when your batterys are low. It takes care of the mess and hassel filling the golf cars can be.

I switched all my optimas out to AGM batterys. From West Marine (Sea Volt batterys)
I found the Optimas hard to Re-charge to full with a regular alternator. If you have a Smart regulater it might be a diffrent story.

Optimas a good choice IMO for a quick easy to find cheep battery. If you looking for somthing trick look around lot's of options.
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-23-2008, 11:58 AM Reply   
Okay I've decided to go with the 1 Kinetik HC2400, it turns out my local sound shop sells them, now the challenge will be to get them to price match and to sell it to me for around $350 and not $499 as well as talk them down on the JL Audio 4300 amp to betwen $250-$275.

They will be doing all the wiring and install, is there any wiring gauge size I should insist on for peak performance?

Keep the recommendations coming in, I'm probably going to pull the trigger on this project in the next 2-3 weeks.

-Wellman
Old     (lukeduke95)      Join Date: May 2002       01-23-2008, 2:01 PM Reply   
Steve, go to millionbuy.com and get them for $249 each. Shipping to me in Cali was only an additional $11 for 4 batteries.
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-23-2008, 2:29 PM Reply   
Luke,

Thanks for the heads up I'll check it out ASAP.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-23-2008, 6:46 PM Reply   
Sam I understand what you are saying. However I had no maint. at all this summer and that was a good feeling.
Old     (scwellman)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-24-2008, 6:59 AM Reply   
Ben or Grant,

Any either one of you give me any recommendations on the wiring gauge size I should insist on for peak performance? Or specific brand they should use?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-24-2008, 8:25 AM Reply   
Steve: Depending on what your installing Peak performance could be a open subject.

If your running a amp that dosent require lots of current then 2 or 4 AGW will work fine. Ask your installer they will know what wire your amps will like.

Im a 0 AWG wire fan myself, LOL I love running $5 a foot garden hose size from tip to tail.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-24-2008, 9:16 AM Reply   
Steve , my advice check the wire before it's used...one companys 2 ga can be another's
s 4ga. I've seen wire sold as zero guage but once you cut it it's really 2 guage wire.
Old     (soundbox)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-24-2008, 4:56 PM Reply   
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but there are 3 different type of power wire.

-Pure Copper
Very rare to find now and is $$ ever since copper made its leap up in price
-Copper Clad Aluminum
The most common and cheapest. Will transfer the least amount of current
-Tinned Copper
The best bang for the buck and is tinned for corrosion resistance and is recommended for marine applications

I have always preferred Stinger or JL wire but wire is wire as long and you know which of the 3 types it is. The coolest wire of the year is the new MetaWire from JL Audio. It comes in red and blue and has a removable outer jacket so you can use one wire and convert it from positive to ground. The MetaWire is Pure OFC copper tinned.

Follow the advise given above for wire size and make sure its more copper than jacket. I am also a fan of 0AWG. Most of the installers and manufactures will tell you that an amp requires a certain size. This is a minimum and you can not hurt anything by going to big. If anything go to 0AWG to leave room for possible expansion later.

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