krypt speaker thread?

I saw it this morning for some new krypt HLCD...anyone know where it went?

wtf. i was there too..

New krypt HLCD? I've never seen anything new from Ken Land? I have seen lots of copies of other companies great products!

I think Ken Land got caught pulling his fishy stuff again! Trying to do a group buy for speakers he "stole", I use this term lightly, maybe I should say copied, but he is selling the same speakers as in the "Bullet HollowPoint HLCD" speakers.

Myself if your looking for HLCD speakers, that are identical to the "Bullet HollowPoint HLCD speakers" just buy the "Bullet HollowPoint HLCD speakers" and support a company that supports Wakeworld and the Wakeboarding community.

I'll see if I can't get some special pricing togethor for everyone on wakeworld so we can get the legit real speakers for a deal! The guys at bullet and all there distubitors are real cool so i'm sure i can get something going! I'll let you know more in the morning!

10-4

Yeah Dave pulled the thread. I was the one that started it. Didn't think I did anything wrong. I was the one that approached Ken about the group buy. Just trying to get myself and others a good deal. I posted the deal that I worked out with him on wakeboarder.com as well.

If you guys want to sling mud by all means sling. But I am pretty sure that Bullet Hollow Points are the original "buy some wetsounds and send them over to china to copy speakers"

I am pretty sure that has been brought up before. No worries. Not trying to piss anybody off.

I thought that this was an OPEN!!! forum. Not a WakeWorld sponsor forum. Think it kid of sucks that the sponsors of this site run it. Oh well it is what it is. Dave has too live and pay for this site somehow. Robert I have nothing against you or what you did for fellow wakeworlders but if Dave is going to pull group buys for non-sponsored items then he should have pulled your thread for under water leds. Don’t know for sure but really don’t think you played Dave any royalties for that group buy. I can’t say for sure but don’t think that J. Brenner is making any money on the Krypt group buy. Just speaking my mind, I will get off my soap box now.

Nope not making any money. Just hoping to get the deal that Ken offered to the rest of us if I could get the group buy set up. Just couldn't really afford to drop close to a grand for a set of HLCD's.

Was there too. Seems as though a good chunk of people don't care for Ken. For all those with the copy comments.........Who gives a crap about copying. Whether its boats , cars, phones speakers everyone is trying to keep up with everyone. Personally I think the copies keep the name brands honest. Otherwise it would be a monopoly and we'd all be getting screwed. Pretty much that way for boat dealers anyways. Zero competition to worry about if you want a certain brand. Kind of leaves you stuck on paying what the Mfg and the dealer want to get out of you with next to no wiggle room.

I don't know Dave's reasoning on pulling the threads, maybe it was due to all the hate or maybe it was due to a group buy who knows. Only Dave can answer that.

Swatguy,
That is almost word for word what I said in the earlier post before it got pulled. Amazing how competition arrives and Bullet decides to lower prices tomorrow.

"Competition is not only the basis of protection to the consumer, but is the incentive to progress." Herbert Hoover

Ken specifically said he had the new speakers made custom and paid for all the tooling, it was not just a copy. Also, I know of a few items that Ken has come up with that are original (his 2 wake 1 surf combo board racks) and one that he is coming up with that I will be the first in line to buy myself. I don't understand how you can flame Ken Robert when you sold the same LED's yourself.

Yea I was wondering how this was going to play out. That was the first time I seen a group buy posted in a group buy though LOL. I hope this gets worked out so we can get a great deal on some tower speakers.

Guys... I would really pay attention to what Jaime Campos from Bullet Speakers does in the next couple of days.

Rumor is that Bullet HLCD's will be 40% off this years remaining inventory. I already spoke with a dealer here in DFW and he confirmed this. If you send me a PM, I will get you set up with the Stereo Dealer I spoke with.

Or you can go to planet nautique under the stereo forum and see what I am talking about.

We are no longer allowing group buys on WakeWorld. It's just another loophole that companies can use to get around our no-advertising policy. I'm not saying that that is what's happening in this situation. I've just gotten tired of dealing with the blowback from both advertisers and non-advertisers that I've told are not allowed to advertise on the forum. If I allow one company to do it, I have to allow all of them to do it and pretty soon that will be the new way to advertise for free. I know that many of you won't agree with that, but it's my time and money that has to be spent on this issue and I've made the decision that it's no longer worth my time and money to support these group buys. Please don't argue that one particular situation is "legit" because so-and-so put it together and/or nobody is making a profit off of it. I'm not going to evaluate these on an individual basis. They will simply no longer be permitted. Sorry.

Man this place has gone corporate


So I guess us snobby MC owners ain't the only ones not allowed group buys anymore BAHAHAHAHAH

(Message edited by xstarrider on August 21, 2009)

Swatguy,

I completely agree with David. How is the man supposto make a living without the advertising? if guy like ken want to sell a large amount of speakers then he can pay for the ad space. its a buisness for David not a hobby.

I can understand where Dave is coming from because if there are No advertisers there is No Wakeworld. I know I didn't have to pay anything to join. My credit card doesn't get billed every time i log in.

As for copying technology... Is that what we do here now? I thought americans where innovators and dreamers always looking for a better way to do the next thing. But i guess now we've turned into the chinese and just want to copy everything. I did offer a group buy on the underwater lights, but the reason I did it was because Ken lied to everyone here. Maybe some of you like having people lie to you, but it frustrates the hell out of me.

Lets see all the lies I can think of off the top of my head!
Gel-coat repair, stole Grants pics and claimed work as his own.
Said made in the U.S. the underwater lights that we got in china
Stole Nice Racks Wakesurf rack design. Straight carbon copy and then returned the rack to Nice Rack for a refund after he did it!
Copied the "Bullet HollowPoint HLCD speakers" and said they where his own design.

I'd rather deal with someone with a little more intigrity. And a better return policy too! Somebody who is very popular on this board, I won't name names, bought some lights from Ken and never installed them but after Grant's test decided he wanted the brighter lights, from Ken, and Ken charged him a horrendous amount for restocking, and this that and the other.

I guess I just don't like Ken and what he stands for. Everyone is entitled to there opinions of the guy but thats how I feel!

Right on Robert...I could not agree with you more.

I don't like him either and think that he does more damage to our industry than good to our industry.

DISHONESTY is no way to promote you work or products.

so is there going to be a bullet group buy?

Robert,

I know you have it out for me.. You twist things, and some things you say are complete lies also..

1. Gel coat - I was testing out our local market for a friend who wanted to start a Gel Coat repair shop: I should not have used grants pics.

2. The underwater lights were designed here in the U.S. The first production runs were done here in the U.S.

3. I never stole Nice racks design: I have never owned a Nice Rack, and therefore I did not purchase a nice rack and return it: complete lie fabricated by you probably..

4. I did not copy the Hollow Points. Krypt Marine Audio paid a company to design and fabricate the tooling.. I have also never owned a Hollow Point speaker.

5. The guy who returned the lights purchased one or two lights over 6 months earlier in the group buy I offered (you said I never did): he wanted to exchange them for our brighter Leds which were nearly twice the cost retail: i still gave him over $100 off each of the brighter lights: and to top it all off, I accepted one of the lights in a box that came from your purchase: Think I was really fair here.

Ken

(Message edited by bulletlines on August 21, 2009)

(Message edited by bulletlines on August 21, 2009)

My 5 cents:

#1 You talked to G after the fact, still does not change what you did (pass on others' work as your own)

#2 Design and 1st Production in the US (just like every one else). Does not change the FACT that they are now MADE IN CHINA. not the US as stated.

#3 Have no knowledge to comment.

#4 If you paid to tool then why tool a copy of Bullet's Grill. That is just plain lame IMHO and a waste of money. Because the grill looks the same regardless of what you paid for you still get the "Copy" look on your product. If you pay to tool, then tool your own design, or better yet pick one of the 2500 grills that have been tooled and are not in product but are up from grabs from many companies in China.

#5 have not knowledge of this, but sounds like you did what you could to support your customer.

I supported you back when the Bullet copy thing happened, but since then you have completely lost my support and it's a shame because your HLCD would have fit nicely in our boxes straight out of the box. You should stick to your comment about not posting on WW, it gets you no where.

Funny you edited your post before I finished mine.

I believe you never owned Nice Racks or Hollow Point. You probably charged it on your CC, then copied and returned them. You never owned them your CC company did. (Yes I derived this from you personality) May not be true, but probably not that far off.

Bullet Lines, Krypt Towers, Krypt Marine Audio, nor I, or any body associated with these companies have ever owned, copied, returned Nice Racks, or Hollow Points: is this good enough for you Johnny?

The grill is absolutely not the same... Here is a pic of the grill: I can understand if you cannot tell from the current picture I have up on our site.




(Message edited by bulletlines on August 21, 2009)

(Message edited by bulletlines on August 21, 2009)

Only shot of the grill I ever saw was the CAD drawing you posted months back. That one looked spot on, but your right this one looks different. It's a hybrid version.

See links of bullet and polk grills
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB651/Polk-Audio-db651.html?search=polk+audio+db

http://www.bulletspeakers.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/7855a4b800f1a1f572001543739980ff.jpg



I should not have thrown that low blow regarding the Nice Racks and Hollow Points. My Bad. I had no knowledge of those topics and should not have added my 5 cents not knowing what went on.

Wow Ken. Lets see here...

Your Gel Coat ad on Craigslist stated here is some pics of work I've done! (seems like a lie to me!) And you asked permission after you put the add up? Yea... because you got caught in a lie! Your lucky Grants as nice as he is, because i would have been furious, hell I am furious and it wasn't even my pics!

The underwater lights? Original to you? No. They were developed by another company and you started distribiting them. I'm sure the wakeworld regulars well remember the lie you told everyone and then the private email you sent me and had Dave remove after I posted it!

The Nice Rack Lie? Let's see I live 5 minutes from Nice Rack and Horacio is one of the most straight forward and honest people in this industry. If he says it happened it did! So deny it all you want! Is it just a coincidence that your rack and his were identical in specs to the millimeter? At least reverse engineer this stuff a little! Is it really that hard to be original?

You paid a company to desaign and fabricate the tooling? I know Jaime paid and engineered and spent time in China designing his system. Its ironic that your new speakers look identical. I also hear there is pending legal action but I'm not sure that info has reached you yet! I have also heard from several sources that you subscribe to a service that tracks shipments to several different companies and use that information to find there suppliers. Like you tried to do with wetsounds ws420! (how'd that work out by the way?) Heard you got caught and they stopped that!

The guy that returned the lights, it was two lights to refresh your memory. And he did want to exchange them for brighter lights, but they didn't come in a box from my purchase! Know why I know this? because Grant sent me all my lights back in there original boxes! Because i wrote on the boxes with a sharpie so he'd know who's lights where who's! After all the lights are identical! Right?

But in the end, all I have to say is i don't care for you or the way you chose to run your business, and i well never support you by buying anything from you. Everyone else is entitled to formulate there own opinions, and I hope they do! Don't take my word for it, call some of the other reputable companies up and ask them for there opinions. I'm sure Wet Sounds, Bullet Speakers, Nice Rack, and a host of other companies would be more then happy to endorse you! lol

By the way, great market strategy naming your company bullet lines, that way when someone searched for an established company, bullet speakers your website came up in the search results. That was fine, untell you started copying there product!

Wow you changed the grill!

Well that makes it alright that its still there speakers behind them!

Great job Ken my BAD, i can't believe how off I was about you! lol

Wow i don't think this tread is doing anyone any good any more. Sorry to see the group buys leave wakeworld hope that maybe in the future we can find a way to bring them back to our community.

Johnny,

After looking at the links you posted it appears as if Polk needs to file a patent and copyright infringement lawsuit against Bullet. Those speakers look very similar. Not to mention the Bullet speaker looks very similar to the Polk MMC650 and Bullet even calls their speaker the 650, for that matter Alpine, Kenwood, Boston Acoustic, JVC, JBL and all the rest need to jump on the band wagon and determine who copied who in the world of Speakers.

Robert,

The most comical part of your continued bashing of Ken is your personal quote on your profile...

"A confidential whisper is heard better than a loud shout!"

So much for practicing what you preach.

Thanks Nubb, It is comical in the sense that I've gotten quite a few PM's from people who know Ken personally and have told me these things. I think there just afraid of sue happy Ken. How many times has he threatened to sue me, or wakeworld, or somebody else? I'm not worried what anyone thinks of me. I'm speaking the truth! I implore everyone else to do there own due diligence and research these facts for themselves!

P.S. Nubb, I changed my profile quote just for you! Hope you like! lol

p.s. alot of speakers are called 650's it refers to the size of the speaker 6.50 inches.

(Message edited by 2006maliblue on August 21, 2009)

I really don't have a position on being "pro-ken" or "anti-ken" as I believe there is merit in both promoting competition and protecting patents, but some of the bashing seems a bit unfounded. I have no clue how long Bullet Speakers have been around, but I bought a line from bullet lines 5-7 years ago. At that point, I don't think he had any stereo line. I don't claim to be an expert in Ken's business history, but given that I've been on his email list ever since the line purchase, it seemed like his next area of expansion was sacs and pumps. He's obviously gone to towers and racks at some point as well. He's just now getting his stereo line out. That means he had the name Bullett lines for at a minimum, 5-7 years before selling speakers. It would have taken some pretty forward thinking to name his company so that his name would be mistaken with a speaker company once he eventually sold speakers.

SS, it wasn't so much forward thinking. He wanted his store to show up in search results when someone searched for bullet speakers a established company in the wakeboard world. At the time he did that I couldn't tell you if he had visions of selling speakers or not? He simply named it similar to an established company trying to reap some of the benefits from there established name. I, like I said earlier didn't call that dirty, I actually said it was smart. But having a similar name and now selling there same product is dirty!

Did you know the line you bought from Ken was actually manafactured for hyperlite? Thats right, ken buys the year old model from the same factory hyperlite does. So no design or tooling costs thanks to hyperlite.

All of you people that love the idea of a company that copies or finds sources for these legit companies and under sells need to realize one thing. When Ken has ran all these other companies out of business who is he going to copy from? Its the profits these companies make the fuel the deign and engineering that brings new products to market. If these companies aren't making money they can't supply us with new products and before long they won't be in business to warrantty the stuff they currently have.

Nubb, I never stated any legal action could even be taken. I was just showing that Ken's original design was not all that original and that if you go through the trouble of tooling your own parts why not make them different.

Take a look at this link and see how many of the top brands of car speakers look the same....Nothing I found
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Specials/default.aspx?showAll=N&c=3&nvpair=FFCategory%7c%5b rank399%5dCar+Speakers&nvpair=FFSubcategory%7c%5br ank52000%5d6-1%2f2%22+Speakers

Example: NVS used polk audio grills because then fit the speakers they used, NVS went on to tool their own grill and made it different then anyone else out there. Smart choice set your self apart.

Why tool a part just to make minor changes and add your name.

Wetsounds tooled their grills and did the same, made them different

Seems that everyone is out to set themselves apart.

With Ken as the exception, he is out to copy, borrow, change just enough to call it his own. Lights, speakers, grills, EQs, board racks.
IMHO, he just hangs back and waits for all the hard work to be done, then tracks that company's inventory movements, finds the originating location and places the order.
I have seen this in the past (tracking the origination of material) while working in the electronics MFG industry. When the company I worked for received a request for quote they would track the requestor's incoming shipments in order to know where the current supply was coming from in order to create a competative quote and win the business. Same source of info, different use of that info.

(Message edited by johnny_jr on August 21, 2009)

(Message edited by johnny_jr on August 21, 2009)

There was another "Krypt Group Buy" on Planet Nautique posted by J.Brenner this morning.

But....It has been removed...

What's next craigslist?

(Message edited by Murphy8166 on August 21, 2009)

That's interesting on the old model year comment; I didn't know that. That being said, if I was hyperlite, I'd be happy to let Ken have the design of the one I had, as it was crap. As for the problem of copying. I completely understand why as a manufacturer you'd be frustrated by someone copying your ideas. That being said, if in fact the allegations here are true, I'd bet that Bullett Speakers, Tim White, etc. will change their business practices. If they have patentable stuff, they'll patent it, even if it is expensive. I don't know who is behind Bullet speakers, but Tim over at Wetsounds seems to be quite creative. I'm confident he'll keep putting out products that raise the bar, and customers will continue to flock to him. There's almost always room for the premium brand, and it appears that this is especially true in wakeboarding. Brand and image are huge here.

I have the same position as SS in this. Anybody ever notice in the grocery store how the house brand always uses the same colors and packaging as the popular selling brand, often making it difficult to tell which is which. Whether copying someone's idea and changin it just a little to call it your own is wrong or right, I don't know. I do know that it is a common practice around the world. Even TV shows do it. That's why there are so many talent shows on TV right now. American Idol was making all the money, so others came along to try and get a piece of the action. American Idol was even just a copy of some British talent show.

Is there something wrong with me posting in there Murphy? Really don't get what the big deal is. I'll say again. I approached Ken about it not the othere way around. Really didn't plan on making a bunch of enemies on here as I love this place and the resources it provides. Got a nice email back from Dave explaining his point of view. No worries really was just trying to save some cash.

Robert,

I cannot tell you if my rope manufacturer made Hyperlite's ropes at one time or not: this I do not have knowledge of. However, I can tell you that the manufacturing world is smaller than everyone thinks, so companies in the same industry having product lines made at the same plant is very common.. Example I could use in the wakeboard market is a company called Playmaker: this company made nearly all wakeboards at one time, and probably still makes a large percentage. Playmaker last time I looked had a list of all wakeboard name brand logos on their website as reference to their quality. Now don't bash my company or me for having items made in our own name at possibly some of the same manufacturing plants: just mind blowing at how far you will go to bash me: harboring this much anger is not healthy. I'm starting to think you should probably have this looked into.

Jman hit it on the head.


There are "generic" versions of everything. Same specs and all. Whether it be Walgreens brand, Jewel brand, generic prescriptions it all adds to helping the big dogs stay in check. If you want the name then pay for it, but you shouldn't force the people who don't care about the stamp on the product or the image that is portrayed by a logo to have to pony up to the monopoly.

All this talk and what not of copies and tracking other competitors shipments adds up to the American Way. The only reason this pisses so many people off is because the ones who paid for the name and "are" the name are pissed that someone could pay half as much and get a product that is almost identical. Believe it or not a ton of highline and low end products come from the same factory and companies just put their stamps on them and tweak them. For example the AR-15 world is a prime example. Tons of MFG's but for the most part only a handful of direct mfg for lowers and uppers. 5 or 6 different companies lowers come off the same line only stamped with a different name. Some an "elite" name and others a "mediocre". What sets apart the "elite" form the "mediocre" is the tweaks done to them afterward by the company. Same can be said here. The big dogs have taken the extra steps to ensure a unique finished product but the guts and main components are essentially the same. It is what it is.

And anyone flaming JB for posting needs to check themselves. All he's trying to do is pass on a deal to fellow riders. If you don't want to participate don't, but don't flame the guy for passing on the "stoke"





(Message edited by xstarrider on August 21, 2009)

J.Brenner - evidentally there is something wrong, that's why it was deleted.

I had nothing to do with the deletion - so don't take it out on me.

Swatguy - How is that a flame?

(Message edited by Murphy8166 on August 21, 2009)

Robert,

Not sure where you are getting some of your info, but here is what I know. Bullet Ski Lines (Kens Company) filled for a fictitious name in 2001 or 2002 can’t verify exact date. The parent company Warlocks filled for their name on 5/13/2002. However Bullet Speakers, a.k.a Bullet Accessories, a.k.a. Bullet Power Sports, a.k.a. WARLOCKS AUTO ACCESSORIES INC filled for "Bullet Power Sports” and “Bullet Accessories” on 5/27/2008 with Sac County. So if anyone stole the name I would say that it was Bullet speakers. Try this, do a search for companies that start with the name "Bullet" and see how many thousands of companies pop up. You can even limit your search to just California and still get thousands.

Swatguy, a prime example of manufactures just sticking someone else’s label on a product that they make is car batteries. Due too the hazardous materials involved. Last I knew there where like 7 plants in the US that make batteries that was several years ago so could be less now. Just think of how many different brands of batteries you can think of.

If the patent holder feels infringed, they have legal action they can take against whomever they feel to be in the wrong. If they left a few loopholes in their patent filing, then tuff shat. Get a better patent attorney next time. Business is War.

The wakeboard/boating industry is growing. And I like the fact that more companies, products and competition means better products and pricing down the road.

Was Ken perfect in his efforts to market products or services? No, and he's admitted that more than once. It's time to let it go.

Has anyone shopped at WalMart this week? If you don't like Ken's business concepts, then make sure you never step into a WalMart again.

Brandon, got a little news flash for ya. Ken is based in Texas.

And a "filing" is when your submit official corporate documents.
A "filling" is what you get at the dentist.

Nacho, couldn’t agree more with your post about patents.

(Message edited by yubasanger on August 21, 2009)

That was funny Nacho:

How about we give this one a rest...

everytime I'm about to buy from bullet Ken/this site total steers me away.

Ken, you said:
"I cannot tell you if my rope manufacturer made Hyperlite's ropes at one time or not: this I do not have knowledge of" .... so you have no idea about the product you're selling?

Nacho, Thanks for the heads up. I knew that, try he is in Spring Branch, Comal County, Texas. How do you think I looked it up! Excuse me for the typo didn’t realize that I was writing a formal letter, you knew what I meant. The only reason that I said to look in California is because if you were to look in all 50 states the list would be so long it would take you a week to get through it.

I'm in favor of free trade and healthy competition. NVS, WetSounds, Bullet HollowPoints and others all have competing products that were independently engineered and use different vendors and manufacturers. They all bear their own cost of design and development and in the case of HollowPoints this meant expensive trips and prolonged stays in China for the initial stages. They're all highly competitive and driven to obtain increased market share. And they advertise to drive sales as with their financial sponsorship on this forum. All this adds to the cost of their infrastructure and doing business. But this is entirely different from the business model that Ken Land subscribes to. He doesn't earn his own way, instead he leeches off the investments, efforts and goodwill of others. Its what many call a bottom feeder. Of course, in the name of saving the almighty buck there are those who will turn a blind eye to Ken Land's methods.

The history of events are pretty well chronicled and known to most on this forum.

BulletLines is a trademark infringement on Bullet Speakers. Ken Land with BulletLines adopted a similar name and elected to use the association so he would be the beneficiary of searches for the more established Bullet Speakers. An easy ploy to gain an advantage without earning it. Next, Ken Land is importing cheap China knock-offs of the original Bullet pods and other related tower accessories. No comparison in quality but much lower cost. He gains an advantage in perception and benefits from the association.

More recently, Ken Land tracked down the WetSounds EQ manufacturer and attempted to import a near exact replica but without any real development costs. This was successfully blocked by WetSounds. Ken Land is currently selling on-line Bravox speakers and subwoofers that are similar to WetSounds products, given that Bravox is an original WetSounds manufacturer. With dozens upon dozens of speaker supplier options, Ken Land chose to represent a WetSounds-Like product. Again, he benefits from the association that someone else had worked hard and invested heavily to create.

Ken Lands is importing ABYSS underwater lighting look-alikes. Without tests to verify his assertions, he compared his products to ABYSS and claimed his products performed better. Ken teed off on ABYSS, a pioneering manufacturer, and used their market position to advance his own business. It might have been more appropriate for Ken to bring his own product to market without constantly referencing his competitor.

Remember, Ken Lands with BulletLines and Krypt Marine Audio is the same guy that promoted photos of someone else's fiberglass repair work as his own. Obviously you can't trust anything he says.

Now in his latest venture, Ken Land finds the overseas manufacturing source for Bullet Speakers HollowPoint HLCD drivers and is importing a direct knock-off. He only has to tool up a slightly different grill. Again, Ken Land is taking advantage of someone else's product development without incurring the development costs and is taking advantage of the product's reputation and mindshare that someone put forth the effort and expense to build.

Its a repetitive pattern of focusing on industry leaders and imitating their products as closely as possible in order to siphon off some of their ingenuity in order to advance his own business. The intent is unethical.

David

I love how this post got totally off track, went form a forum about Krypt HLCD speakers to another Ken bashing post.

David E M,
Forgive me as I am not an Attorney but not sure how BulletLines is a trademark infringement on Bullet Speakers.

Nick said
"everytime I'm about to buy from bullet Ken/this site total steers me away."

Ken, you said:
"I cannot tell you if my rope manufacturer made Hyperlite's ropes at one time or not: this I do not have knowledge of" .... so you have no idea about the product you're selling?

No Nick, Ken said that he had no idea who else was selling the same rope. Specifically Hyperlite.

^ He doesn't know the history of the company that makes his stuff.

Oh I bought this car, its a ______ (whatever) they may have made this or that a few years ago, heck, I don't know.... who buys like that.

Brandon i can tell you how and why this post went off track. Its because alot of the members of this site are familar with the tactics employed by Ken at Bullet lines and can't stand the guy!

I can't think of any other company in the wakeboarding industry, or marine iundustry as a whole that illicits such a strong negative reaction. That has got to tell you why so many people can't stand Ken Land and his business practices.

I know its no surprise to anyone that I don't care for the guy. But there's a reason I don't like the guy. I didn't wake up one morning and say let's pick on Ken. Ken invited us to pick on him by miss representing himself and his company to all of us!

I have no problem with people making money! How else could we support our hobby. And if someone reinvents the wheel or finds a way to make it better for less, GREAT! Just don't steal the wheels off your neighbors car and try selling them as if there your own. Am I biased in my feelings towards him? No. I don't own wetsounds, there personally not my favorite, same for the bullet hollow points. Are they great original products? Of course just not for me. I do own a set of racks from nice rack, but I'd never slam anybody else that made them just for the sake of stirring the pot. I had titans on my first boat and they worked great.

The moral of this post that Ken would do well to heed is to remember we are educated consumers and if you lie to us we'll find out! Personally if Ken said I copy everyone else's products and sell them for less I don't think it would get such a huge reaction. Honesty is the best policy!

Robert - Thanks for changing your quote. . It seems that your belief that Ken is piggy backing on someone else’s investment has you a little fired up. But did you not piggy back on Ken's with your LED purchase and then get angry when he attempted to protect his investment?


Dave – Your say Ken sells Chinese knock offs and state Bullet spent time in China to have speakers developed. Wouldn’t that make both of them Chinese knock offs? There are not thousands of companies in China making these products. The come from a very few large conglomerates that will make anything your pay them to. Most likely both products are rolling off assembly lines in the same building. Also, please tell me how you have confirmed that Ken did not make that same trip? For those that do not realize it, 40% of all goods sold in America today are imported from China alone.

My question is, why are you only bashing Ken. Why not include every aftermarket tower manufacture? Why not include everyone making aftermarket racks?

At the end of this day, I don't think Krypt Audio's market is going to be the same as that of Wet Sounds, Bullet, and NVS. They are the premium brands, and there is a market segment that will pay for and demand premium brands. Furthermore, those brands that continue to invest in R & D will continue to come up with innovative products. As such, if the claim that Ken simply copies others and never designs anything himself is true, he'll always be a step behind. The market he's going to grab share in is that middle market composed of those that aren't going to shell out for the premium brands anyways.

As for selling the same rope as hyperlite it's not a big deal and hyperlite I'm sure doesn't care. The factory that makes the ropes and handles for hyperlite signs an exclusivity clause for a period of 1 to 3 years. After that time is up the factory is legally allowed to sell the same exact rope and handle to anyone who wants it. I do think its kinda funny the ken isn't aware that his ropes at one time where the same ropes that hyperlite was offering. I imagine he's holding his tongue on that one because he knows hyperlite has the money to take him to task if he said its the same exact rope as there's. After all he can buy and sell the rope but he can't use there name because that would be infringing on there trademark.

What gets my goat is the fact he has no creativity and can't come up with one original idea.

Funny story I heard, and just so you know this is hear say i wasn't there. But, I'm sure you know how Ken found Wetsounds supplier for the ws420 and tried selling them under his name. But do you know how Wetsounds found out? Well Ken called Tim White at wetsounds and said I'm importing a EQ basically identical to yours and wanted to say it has "4 Band Parametric Equalizer with 2 AREA operation" instead of "4 Band Parametric Equalizer with 2 ZONE operation" and he asked Tim if that was different enough he wouldn't sue him? Tim called the factory up that was making his EQ and said did Ken call you? Thats how Tim found out. Its a great story. And i wish Tim would confirm or tell us the whole story as its absolutly hilarious!

Wow I will never get back the time I just wasted reading this. There are some important things missing here. Yes Ken may have replicated some cheap knock off speakers etc. But this guy will not be able to replicate the customer service of the other out standing companies such as Wet Sounds etc. IMO it takes integrity to run a sucessfull company with good customer service. Ken will end up sinking his own ship no punn intended.

I did jump on Ken's back and happily so! After he lied to everyone on here I put him on blast and opened his supplier to everyone.

I think the point alot of people are missing is you can make a similar product but make it your own. Every maker of racks has there adavantage. Wether its quality, cost or features. They are not all copying each others design and calling it there own. Much the same way Malibu and Bayliner both manafacurer boats its very easy to tell them apart and they all serve there purpose and the market. If bayliner copied Malibu or vice versa there would be a huge outcry and lawsuit. Unfortunatly with alot of the companies that serve our aftermarket needs they don't have the capital needed to patent and protect there ideas or investments. So you design a better speaker and you'd have to pay 60k to get it patented? And the next guy comes along and adds one extra screw hole(reverse engineers it) and he legally can do that. Alot of what ken does isn't illegal its just very unethical.

Personally I don't care to do business with someone who's unethical. There are alot of things i want and can't afford, so i don't buy them and I don't steal them!

A lot of you guys are kind of babies about this... welcome to the real world. Boat manufac. copy other boat manufacs.. wakeboard companies take ideas from other wakeboard companies... etc etc. Its in EVERY industry out there. Competition keeps companies on their toes and the good companies strive to come up with innovative ideas that set them apart and warrant a higher price point.

If you guys all really practiced what you preach - there would only be:

1 boat manufacturer
1 wakeboard manufacturer
1 truck manufacturer
1 brand of stereos/speakers
1 brand of towers and accessories
etc.

After all, if one company makes a boat and another makes a different boat, its still a boat right?

If you don't like Ken or how he does business, don't buy from him. Simple as that. Don't bash him for it. Just like somebody said... when you go to Walmart, do you buy Walmart brand of advil or the name brand Advil at $5 more a bottle? I sure as hell don't... and the product couldn't get more identical.

Rob said:
"And the next guy comes along and adds one extra screw hole(reverse engineers it) and he legally can do that."

Rob, you have used that expression (reverse engineers it) incorrectly twice. I think you should google its meaning so you understand it. I'm not picking on you, just saying.

Ken has been accused of selling cheap knock-offs (cheap imitation of original) and selling the exact same product with his name on it. Which is it? If it is the same product and he is selling it much cheaper, I'm sure he is still making a worthwhile profit or he wouldn't be messing with it. So how much are the other guys making off of the same product? Are you sure their not the bad guys? Taking all our hard earned money, making a huge profit. I'm just trying to make a point here. If someone has a product that cost $1.00 to produce and they are selling it for $20, what do you think is going to make them drop their price? I'll tell you. Competition! Someone selling for less. Welcome to the real world.

Stuey, the difference between your generic advil and the name brand advil is advil still makes and sells both products! Wal Mart just markets the advil they buy from advil in a differnt bottle at a different price point. I'm sure if you wanted to buy a thousand speakers from bullet speakers or wetsounds and rebrand them as stuey's they'd be all for it. Because they are not being cut out of the loop.

Now if wal mart bought a bottle of advil and sent it to china to be copied and then advertised it as designed engineered and manafactureed by wal mart in the US would you be so happy?

If we practiced what we preach, and I believe i do there would be several boats with different ideas and designs as there are! There wouldn't be one boat design that everybody copied and put out as there own, like your saying.

The problem with reasoning with unreasonable people is they don't have any reason! No one on here said Ken couldn't make or sell speakers. We just think he should develop his own speakers. I know I couldn't design a speaker to compete with any of the big boys so i won't. Ken's philosophy seems to be I can't design anything better so i'll just steal there idea! Thats were the whole ethical dilema comes in.

What are you willing to do to save a few bucks? I bet you if Mastercraft fired all there employees and had slaves they could produce there boats cheaper!
And if we had no food control, prices of lettuce would go down.
But do you want to be responsible for the conditions these issues would cause? You'd be saving money though!

My favorite part was when you said "innovative ideas that set them apart and warrant a higher price point" but what happens when months after you come to market someone like Ken Land stills your ideas and trys selling them at half price?

How are these companies going to be able to afford to keep coming up with these innovative ideas?

Keep shopping at Wal-Mart up there and keep that money flowing down to the US! We could sure use it! lol

Jman, its all of the above! He has done everything from copying to a T the racks from Nice Rack and having his machinist make them for him.So that would be a cheap knock-off (cheap imitation of original)

To the wetsounds ws420 which he tried moving a microphone jack a 1/4in. and calling it his own( got squashed by wetsounds trying to do that) that would qualify as reverse engineering I do believe

And I won't even call it reverse engineering, I'll call it rebranding. Taking someone elses speaker and slapping a different grill on and saying its his original idea! And this would have to be selling the exact same product with his name on it

So jman, to answer your question I persoanlly believe its all three of the offenses you listed!

Lots of "imitation and stealing" in the tower speaker business right now. However the strong will always survive...IF Krypt speakers are a copy of Bullet speakers, well this is not the first time this has happened, ask Tim White.

Robert, did he use inferior materials on the Nice Rack? If not, then it is just as good as the original. It's a wakeboard rack! They're all pretty similar. How much "engineering" went into it? As for the Hyperlite rope, once again, it's a freaking piece of rope. I've always felt ripped off at the price of those to begin with.

As for the innovative ideas of others, if they are worth anything, then get a patent. That's exactly what they are for. I remember when the Weed Eater was first invented. They had a patent for the design and innovative idea and no one could copy them and sell them (unless they paid Weed Eater a fee) for X number of years, thus allowing Weed Eater to recoup the developmental costs of their product.

I'm sure you've heard the expression, "nothing personal, it's just business"

Funny, I know I seem to be defending Ken, but I am really not. This is about anyone. It is just how the business world works.

It's a dog eat dog! Eat cat too!

Kicker square sub and mtx square sub???
Please make the madness stop.

WOW.....YOU GIRLS NEED TO FIND A PLAYGROUND AND DUKE IT OUT!!!!

The bickering back and forth only reinforces the whinning reputation that this forum has become known for.

Is there a moderator here??? Or does he have a vested interest in the debate???? Your sponsors are watching!!!!

A forum is for discussion. That's what I am doing, discussing the way the business world works with some who don't seem to understand it. No one makes anyone that visits here read anything that they don't want. So if this thread or any other are not to one's liking, they can simply avoid it altogether. That's what I do, read what I find interesting, skip the rest.

The reason no patents were applied for or received is because none of it is original innovation. Everything marine pro audio we see now was done by someone else 10 - 30 years ago; therefore it is not original.

Robert,

Your comment about the Wetsounds EQ is again a very twisted version of events. I called Tim White to ask if he had a patent or pending patent on the EQ because I could not find anything in the patent database: I also told him on that same call that I was thinking of building something similar, and that was the reason for my question. Companies call other companies all the time to ask what is being protected; all very common.

Also,

I did not pic the name Bullet Ski Lines because of Bullet Speakers: I believe my company has been in business longer than Bullet Speakers. For your information: the name Bullet Ski Lines was named because of a rope technology called Spectra Glass. I had planned on making high end wakeboard ropes out of Spectra Glass, but the cost was to much. Spectra Glass is the same fiber used to thread Flak Jackets for the military: hence the name Bullet Ski Lines or Bullet Lines for short.

Robert you need to spend more time installing garage doors, and a little less time investigating or coming up with your crazy thoeries.

Ken, I'll spend more time installing garage doors as soon as you spend some time developing one original idea!

I told everyone in my comment the conversation between you and tim white was hear say, so i can't say with certainty exactly what was said. I do know Jaime has been making speakers longer then you've been in business. And while it could be a coincidence that your names are so similar, I have to conclude based on all the stuff you've pulled, you probably knew and did it on purpose.

I did find it funny how you mention you wanted to make your own line but the cost was to much! ( That cost for tooling and design, thats what all these other manafacturers had to pay to make there product before you came in the back door and reaped the benefit of there hard work and money)

It was not the tooling, but the raw material cost that made it too expensive. The tooling was relatively inexpensive when divided up between the number of ropes that would have been manufactured. I believe my caluclations were that the Bullet Glass rope would have had to retail between $200 and $250.

Also I'm a bit tired of the Ken does not come up with anything original: To name a few: 1. Our Pro Swoop tower was designed and approved by Krypt Towers: others have already copied it. 2. Our coated ropes were designed for and approved by us, and when they came out they were the best coated ropes on the market, as all the other manufacturers coated ropes had the coating cracking and falling apart and would hurt hands while sliding through: our coated ropes were soft and did not crack: everyone else copied3. Our triple board racks were designed for and approved by us, and Krypt is currently still the only manufacturer that makes them. Now please go back to installing garage doors

Our speakers, towers, or tower accessories are not Bullet Lines products: they were developed under brand names of Krypt Marine Audio and Krypt Towers. Krypt Towers was developed out of courtesy to Bullet Speakers trademark, so that there would be no confusion with our tower speaker cans: this all came about because of a courtesy phone call Jaime made to me, and we discussed what could be done

(Message edited by bulletlines on August 22, 2009)

(Message edited by bulletlines on August 22, 2009)

Ken,
Why don't you just advertise here? Seems like all the group buy posts that get started with your company wouldn't be a problem.

I offered Dave last time him and I communicated to start advertising, but I had a few issues that I wanted him to address (I'm the customer right?). Dave answered all, but refused to even mention one of the topics I was hot about, and the communication ended as it would probably be better if we did not do business.

I did not setup the group buy, I did not push it, and I said from the beggining that I was not sure about how it would go over on Wakeworld: I left it up to J Brenner who stayed on top of me all summer to do a group buy.

I'm sorry for the couple things I said which caused everything else to get turned around on me here on wakeworld in the past (I deserve a few things, but much of this stuff has just gone too far). I've been a contributing member for longer than most members even knew what wakeboarding was; offering advice, and not just on threads that pertained to my products or companies). At the end of the day my companies have 10s of thousands of satisfied customers because I sell great products at a very reasonable price.

I cannot believe the bashing I get on ethics because in all reality I'm an ethical person and I do what I say I'm going to do. The reason I have so many satisfied customers is because I deliver and take care of problems as promised. I think people get confused between ethics, and business ethics because they are not the same: BUSINESS IS WAR!, this is why so many large corporate companies spend Millions in training seminars all based on teachings and tactics taught within the book "The Art of War".

I'm not going to make everyone here happy, but I get dissapointed when I see people like Robert or even David on this thread write untruthful, twisted, or one sided mean spirited remarks that do not tell the whole story. Guess I'm just human

(Message edited by bulletlines on August 22, 2009)

(Message edited by bulletlines on August 22, 2009)

I love how everyone behind a computer is an expert at something or another and are so quick to talk smack in a forum. Don't most of you have better things to do than to hate on a business owner trying to make a living. If you don't like something keep it to yourself unless asked for your opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not believe the title of this thread was "Is Krypt's new HLCD a ripoff of Bullet's HLCD".
I placed my order for 2 pairs.
You can hate on me for jumping on a good deal.

I would like to chime in and say that I have not done business with Ken, but I have received emails and PMs on certain subjects that I have poted with good contribution. From my experience with him, he has offered good advice, and pointed me in the right direction..

Wow, looks like you guys have been having some fun while I was at the lake. Looks like I even got drug into the ring with zero knowledge of the fight! LOL

Just to be clear, I was the guy that returned the lights to Ken for an upgrade. I had the lights sitting on my shelf for quite a while before the test and some time after before I even approached Ken to see if he would accept the two light back in trade for the newer higher power light. During this transaction I had hoped that returning two lights which currently retailed for higher than a single light would be a straight across trade. It was not, Ken charged me a fair upgrade charge. Again, the upgrade charge was FAIR. It was not exactly what I was hoping for but it was fair. Grant and I talk several times each week. I did not go around and cry about it but I used the situation as an example in an unrelated discussion with Grant. Apparently this was shared with Robert and we can all see how Robert feels about Ken so he chose to exploit my story.

My final view is that I jumped the gun on my LED purchase. It was my mistake, and it cost me a few small bucks. No big deal.

I truthfully have mixed feelings about Ken and his business model. I have probably purchased 6 or more BulletLine wakeboard ropes from Ken over the past 4 years. In fact, I rode with one of his lines earlier today. I also have an accurate wakeboard rope too but I like the BulletLine rope better. I see vaguely similar ropes to Kens from other manufacturers but I have not seen anything identical. In this particular area I think Ken's product is superior.

When it comes to the LEDs, these are pretty generic items. Reverse engineering or copying runs rampant in this particular industry. Just look as the tape LEDs you can get from any online vendor, they are exactly the same as far as I can tell.

Now when it comes to a highly specialized item like the WS-420 or Bullet Hollowpoint, I see things differently. Both of these items were specifically designed for our tiny industry. If companies like Wetsounds or Bullet cannot turn a profit then they will stop designing the products we enjoy and we will all lose. The NVS Addiction and Wetsounds Pro-80 share some commonalities but are obviously quite different. In my opinion, competition of this nature is healthy, we as consumers benefit from the innovation of each company. Earlier today I was tied up next to a buddy with Bullet Hollowpoints on his tower. I told him that it appeared his speakers had been copied and were being sold for about half price. To my surprise his reaction was excitement and seemed to be interested in adding a second set to his tower. My recommendation was to buy another set of Hollowpoints if he wanted to add a second set.

If Ken could take the idea of a product and improve upon it as it appears he has done in his tow rope business I would be happy to buy and recommend his audio products as I recommend his ropes. Unfortunately the audio products appear to be blatant carbon copies made with no attempt for improvement, so I don't feel good about these.

For a Krypt EQ, I would like to see a unit that allowed auxiliary inputs on the front, speed compensating volume, and wireless remote capabilities with the ability to control multiple switching relays so I could remotely turn my LEDs on/off from a RF waterproof handheld remote from 100' away.

For Krypt speakers I would like to see some things that would fit into standard 6x9 openings. Option 1 would include a pair of coaxially loaded compression tweeters. Option would include option 1 plus two mid-bass drivers to replace the very common four 6x9's in a tower box. Keep your boxes or cans, just add pro-audio gear.

These products would be different enough and innovative to the point where I could comfortably recommend to my friends.

my $0.02

From what I have heard from Ken so far from bugging him the last couple of months about the speakers was that his EQ will have some sort of high powered FM modulator to share the signal instead of just a aux in/out type deal. He said he was amazingly pretty impressed with the range of it. I think he mentioned something about the EQ have presets as well. Man it would be awesome if some sort of speed control could be integrated.

FM Modulators = FAIL

I think most of us that have big systems have experienced FM modulators. Personally I have experienced several varieties of FM modulators, everything from IPOD piggybacks, inline antenna injectors, all the way to illegal high fidelity kit built mini 2 watt radio transmitters (5 mile range over flat water). In all cases my experience with FM signal sharing has been disappointing.

The aux in/out deal is what works, we have proven that on many tie-up situations at the lake. One IPOD feeding a very clean signal from a very clean source file like DJ Sex Machine's Submission is what gets our systems pumping. Until you hear over 20,000 watts playing in perfect harmony you won't truly understand what I am talking about. There are probably only a dozen or so guys on this board that can really understand where I am coming from, Ken is not one of these guys. On the other hand Jaime, Tim, Duane, and Todd get it, and their products reflect that. The fact that Ken is even considering a FM solution exposes his lack of knowledge in this arena.

(Message edited by mikeski on August 23, 2009)

That'd be dope if it comes to fruition.

Cool, yeah I am by no means any kind of audio expert. I prefer term the armchair stereo enthusiast LOL. One day I'll have a fraction of the ridiculously nice systems you guys have in your boats.

"illegal high fidelity kit" somebody call the FCC lol.