ballast siphon problem ......

Onmy boat the ballast overflow vents are lower than my ballast sacks when the boat is underway!It seems to cause a siphon which will continue to drain the sacks out of these vents until the boat is sitting level again. Does anyone see a problem with using sprinkler valves on the overflow vents that will open when filling and go back to closed when done? I know they are restrictive, but since they will be used only on the vent lines, I'm hoping that won't be an issue. Also, I am using reversing simer pumps, one per bag to fill and drain. What do you guys think?

Mark

That should work.

The only other option would be to put the vents higher than the sacks but I am sure you already thought of that. Let me know when you will be in my neck of the woods I have something you might want

Yeah, the lines actually run higher. I even tried to make a loop with them, but it is the though hull fittings that are are lower so I can't do too much with them. The cheap sprinkler valves are only like 10 bucks so I think I'll give them a try unless someone on here leads me to believe otherwise.

the electric sprinkler valves require water pressure to operate. The solenoid (the electric part) opens a tiny water passage, which allows water pressure to act upon a diaphragm that opens the main valve.

I think (but I am not entirely sure) that it is the water pressure that is required to close the valve. You can manually open these valves by twisting a little knob that creates a water leak, and the valve opens.

I would expect that they would not function at all at zero pressure. Can anyone confirm that they have actually made this work?

Rod

Mark, it seems like the simplest thing to do would be to simply run the vent line a little higher.

Rod - I see what you are saying and I think you are correct. However, I think I will be seeing pressure on my overflow lines once my bags fill up. Also,the pumps that I have are impellar driven so pressure building up shouldn't be a problem. I guess the real question is that will my bags burst or overfill before the main valve opens, and if the above thinking is right, I guess they won't pass air and allow the bags to vent air out. I mainly want my vent/overflow for protection of overfilling anyhow. Thanks for the input.

Rod - The lines do run higher, but that doesn't matter once the siphon action starts. It is the vent openings in the hull of the boat that are lower. Once the bags fill up and overflow like they are supposed to, I turn off the pumps and the water keeps coming out of the vents. I have quite a bit of extra vent line that I can actually lift up plenty high while standing on the swim deck, but it makes no difference. I thought putting a loop in the line up high would help, but that didn't help either.

orbit brand sprinkler valves require 10 - 15 psi before they open up. Not sure if that will work for this now...... thoughts anyone..........

it won't work, all the above comments are correct.
use a flow rite valve

does anyone know what valves supra is using on their system? They electronically open when 12 volts are applied & no pressure seems to be needed to open them.

Why not use a check valve?

not sure how a check valve would help me in this situation. I don't need to divert flow or permanently stop flow in one direction. I just need to be able to stop water coming out the vents when I am done filling the ballast but still allow it out the vents during fill time for overfilling protection. Im thinking that my options are to use a couple of flow rite ballast control valves or to just put in manual valves on the vent lines. Not sure if the convience is worth 100 bucks or not. The sprinkler valves would theoretically work perfect, but it takes 15 or so psi of water pressure to open the valve not to mention after it is open they are very restrictive. I hoped that the solinoid by itself opened the valve without the pressense of water pressure or with low pressure, but Rod is right, that isn't the case.

Thanks for the input

what about pressurized check valves, ones light enough to still allow it to work as a vent when filling (positive pressure on it) but would not allow the siphon effect to happen

Tom - thanks I'll look into that. Are you referring to a pressure relief valve? That may work if they operate at low enough water pressure.

yes, pressure relief

Mark,
Before you burn a lot of money on your valve......(or worse yet come mooch one from me) I have thought about your problem some more. The answer lies in your vent fitting and its orientation to the bag.

A) the vent tube fitting (that you shove into the bag) should be as short as possible -- should only go into the lip of the fitting on the bag not extend down into the bag.
B) the bag should be oriented with the vent on the top front of the bag as it sits in the boat. That way when the boat is on plane the water will move to the point furthest from the vent and won't be able to generate the siphon effect you are seeing.

does this make sense? If not call me.

Yeah, Scott that makes sense. One bag is oriented so that the fittings aren't on top of the bag and that one is draining out the vent the worst. However, the bag in my ski locker on top of the gas tank has the vent fitting directly on top and it still does it a little bit. It won't do it if I stop filling the sack before it starts coming out the vent, but if I let it get full enough to where it starts coming out the vent, it seems like it will never stop.....and yes the pump is off. What kind of valves do you have anyway? I'll try to catch up with you before the weekend. Hopefully you'll be up this way.

the electric sprinkler valves will not work for your application, it will work as a gate valve after a scupper valve valve to a manifold or some other water apparatus. I run a 1 inch sprinkler valve in my super sport as a gate valve etc etc.

My question to you is why does every one call the jabsco ballast pump aka water puppy a simer pump. As a pump distributor for both these pump companies there is no connection. The pumps are Jabsco 18220-1123
http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=pump_model_detail&product_id= 9493 as seen on our web site.

huh???? I think you are confused. People that are refering to a Simer pump are refering to a Simer pump. I also have a Jabsco Water Puppy aka Ballast Puppy pump in my system and it is a piece of junk compared to the Simer blue water pumps.

Just use a standard PVC valve. I used 1/2" pipe inside the tubing. My VLX will back siphon thru the fill hose. Easy as pie and less than $10!

What you need is an anti siphon valve, you will need to cut it in the vent line at the high point. When water is pushing against it with pressure the valve closes to prevent leakage, as soon as a vacum is produced the valve opens to introduce air, this allows the water in the vent pipe to run out and breaks the siphon effect. The are used in plumbing waste systems and are made out of PVC. You could easily make your own using an open ended check valve mounted in a T.

Darren - I think I'm following you on that idea, and might give it a try.

Thanks

If you make one your own using a check valve make sure it has a very light spring, you want it to open fairly easily. Sometimes you can take the cartridge apart & cut the spring to lighten it up.

Darren - Just so we are on the same page...Is this what you are talking about?

Yup perfect. Beats a solonoid valve huh.

(Message edited by ralph on April 29, 2004)

yeah if it works it sure will. I'll try it this weekend and see.

Get a couple of ballast valves from flow-rite. www.flow-rite.com I had this problem and now it works perfect.