is a double up move legit?

my wife asked me a question that I didn't have a straight answer for. She asked if a ground-breaking new move was less legit if it was done off of a double up. I personally think that it is just as impressive, if not more, if it is done off of a double up. I guess the question is, if two guys landed the same new move and one is off a double up and one isn't who should get the credit, or who's is more legit, or is there any difference?

(Message edited by caseman1322 on October 13, 2008)

With the crazyness that has become modern wakeboarding, quite a few tricks need to be done off the double, simply by the fact that they need more air time to complete the extra rotation. I guess if two moves were done the same day and one was off the wake it could be called more legit, but talk about splitting hairs. You stomp a new trick either way and you can claim it regardless.

I think it would definitely be super impressive if someone landed a 1080 without a double-up, but even so i would not let it discredit a double up one.

Double Ups not only offer a greater kick, but they offer an opportunity to add style. Just the enormous air alone makes any move sick. A longer poke, grab, or slowed graceful rotation can be added on double-ups that normal wake to wake airs cant offer (not as well anyway)

Off a kicker? well here there might be some contest in the question... but only a little (and it has been discussed before)

The best thing to do is put your wifey on a board and have her hit some double ups. "Being there" and "doing that" is sometimes the best and only way to help someone gain the respect required. it takes great skill and determination to hit one of those beasty things, even if your behind a tiny 18 ft. power boat. it also takes skill to drive them. drivers and boarders alike can gain better understanding from driving and hittin D-Ups

li'l off topic, i started editing videos i shoot recently... now i have a WAY WAY greater understanding and appreciation for film editors... and i have only scratched the surface.

double ups are so great. arguably harder to hit and control, equally as challenging to drive perfectly! Personally, I am gonna go with MORE legit off of a double up. There are just more variables that need to come together to make it work. Try a contest pass trick by trick off of consecutive double ups. Good Luck!

i think they are equally legit

Heavy said it "splitting hairs." but personally i get more pumped about w2w progression than dubs.

imagine if all those 10s were w2w and d's 12 was w2w..absolutly insane....ps dont get me wrong all those 10s and d's 12 are legit, just saying what if they were w2w--i think someone will throw out a 10 w2w soon.

Not even a question here - double ups are the definition of legit. Sure w2w is tech. When I started wakeboarding (when there wasn't such thing as a X-Star) you would be extremely lucky to get a chin-high wake. We usually would take small lines and DU as much as possible. Even taking only DU sets was a norm. Anyway - DU's are the cornerstone of our sport - legit. My 2 cents.

I like Byroms Take on the whole thing. I got no problem with it, I know that I have stuck some tricks off a dub that I have never landed with out it.

I agree with the kicker statement.

that's like comparing snowboarding pipe to kickers. you can build a kicker bigger than a pipe, obviously there is a limit to how big you can go in pipe, so kickers are the next step

Is a frogs a$$ water tight?! I THINK SO! hahah I love that quote

/\/\/\/\

I can hit wake to wake jumps heel side all day and pretty consistant toe side wake to wake. Yeah I'm pretty awesome right? I've never been able to hit a double up just right though. The few times I've managed to time popping off of it right I had practicaly no edge going in and came nowhere near wake to wake on it. So while I appreciate the tech side of a 1080 off the wake if and when it happens, to me hitting a double up at all is impressive.

luke, i disagree

if snowboarding pipe = wakeboarding wake

neither have limits to how big you can go, because the pipe or the wake can always be bigger

Wow what an awesome post. I landed my first indy glide ever today, and it was off the double up....!! As far as legitimacy goes, I was more stoked goin off the double up, and its way better for the spectators.. However, off the dub is definitely a lot easier than doing it w2w... I still can't do it w2w.

pipe has its limits for sure, you get to a point where you would just lose momentum before you leave the lip. same with wake, at some point, boats can't realistically have any more weight put in them without making them undrivable

I can't belive I'm going to say this, but I agree with Derek. Double ups are more technical just to hit, and while you get more time, the risk is much higher for injury.

More legit off the DU.

hahaha...DU's where its at...

whens the next ride goin down jrod? lookin forward to that little parking lot stunt you were talkin about...

A trick landed is a trick landed and it is just as legit off a D-up as off the straight wake. In some ways the tricks are harder off a d-up and in other ways they are easier and can't see one as being more or less LEGIT.

Now what is more impressive to watch: Show me some Big Air Crazy stuff off the D-Up!!!

I agree with Derek and J-rod. I personally think DU's are more legit. But that is at my riding level. I have a much much smaller bag o tricks off the DU than off the regular wake. Plus I have seen a lot of dudes land stuff off the wake with no real skill sets (think HS hero, backroll/tantrum guy). Now I have absolutely no way of relating my perception with that of a pro. They may be so skilled at hitting dubs and controlling things that its easier for them to land things off the dub...but personally its harder for me.


Edit: Matter of fact, I was just reading an alliance last night (the one where they interview different pro's and their experiences...how to hit a dub with Randall, how to hit a 10 with rusty, ect.) In that article Rusty said that for a 1080 you get maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 dubs that are right for it...meaning they shape up right, you hit them right etc. Still, I have no relevance to that riding level, but it suggests that its very legit.

(Message edited by liquidmx on October 14, 2008)

i still disagree luke,

a boat can always be bigger, meaning more room to place more weight.

pipe, as long as speed overcomes how steep the pipe is, then there is always room for improvement

both wakes and pipes have become increasingly larger over the years and i think they'll keep getting bigger

its an interesting issue...i would imagine there is a threshold you have to get over to handle a proper a double up....but once you do, more air = more opportunity....

i say its for sure legit. cuz you have to time that double up perfect, cuz like us riders know if you get off the dub wrong the trick you wanted to hit is probably over before it started.. def legit i say just some tricks def need a double up and some can get away with out

Wow! This thread is hilarious! Ninety nine point nine percent of the people in the world can't even wakeboad. So, it's legit either way. Double ups are very technical and I bet over 90% of wakeboarders can't hit them or have never tried.

"I guess the question is, if two guys landed the same new move and one is off a double up and one isn't who should get the credit, or who's is more legit, or is there any difference? "

So everyone thinks that if someone pulled a 1080 w2w it wouldn't be more legit than a double up one? Then why is everyone waiting to see one?

More real life example: So say you and your friend are both trying to land 720's, he lands his off the DU and you do yours w2w. I'd bet you'd feel your's was more legit being you didn't need the help of a DU. Granted they are both legit and deserve props, but if you have to draw a line on which is more, I'm not going with the booster seat.

(Message edited by behindtheboat on October 15, 2008)

there are 2 different views here...

does it take a mastered skill to successfully hit dubs...yes

are technical mobes and spins more difficult w2w...yes

someone stick a w2w 10 and we will see the range of progression open up even more for the sport of wake riding.

Water dork- I was watching fuel tv last night and they had a show about the progression of snowboarding. The originators of the sport and all the guys who moved to Tahoe in the 90's were talking about how the half pipe is what pushed the progression of a KICKER. The reason being was because they said a half pipe or a super pipe can ONLY GET SO BIG. Thats why they started building kickers. Becuase you can build them BIGGER than a half pipe. So based on what the originators of snowboarding said in that documentary Id have to strongly disagree that a half pipe can get bigger and bigger. I think there is a slight limitation to that as well as a wake.

And as far as a wake I think we may find better, firmer, and SLIGHTLY bigger shapes in the future. I mean look at Epic. They run 4k of ballast in there boats. Yes, I agree that the boats may get bigger with more room to weight them, but with that comes engine limitation. I think were close to maxing out on size and weight in our boats these days. I THINK companies will start focusing on hull design before they make a 24ft boat with 6k of ballast. You have to remember that the bigger the boat, the more weight, the bigger the engine MUST be and unless our boat manufacturers start putting 700hp big blocks in boats I just dont see that happening. ALL MY OWN OPINION. Could you imagine what a big block that pumps out 700hp would cost to run on fuel. ALOT. Thats why I think were a bit maxed out on size and weight. We already have guys that run Xstars with 5k and the big 8litre engine. Can you reasonably go bigger than that without spending 500 bucks everytime you go out? I just dont see a big market for it thats why I dont see the companies going that route. IMHO- and thats why we have Double ups!

Naw Dave, we'll just keep changing the props for torq! I can't wait for the prop that max's out at 30mph. ha

Agreed Eubanks, something like an 8.1 propped down could move A LOT of weight...especially a diesel.

hahaha seriously!

My opinion is also based on fuel prices, economy, where the boat market is going, and how many people would really fork out the kinda cash for a $10,000 engine upgrade.

Dave, Definitely as far as mainstream is concerned. But what's stopping the people pushing the sport (aka the pro's) from running massive amounts of weight? They are arguably the front-runners already for pushing boats to their maximum level of wake performance.

A big, stylie trick off the dub is often more impressive in my opinion. Bigger spins (7's, 9's) often look hucked and gymnastic off the wake. Though it is easier to learn certain tricks requiring more air off the dub, it is also fairly technical to actually hit the dub, time the trick, land a bigger air, etc.

In fact, I would bet a large percentage of fairly decent riders with some inverts/spins on this site can't hit dubs very well. Not necessarily because they can't, but because they don't due to other issues (narrow Delta, body impact/toll, inexperienced drivers, etc.)

It's a separate skill that takes time and practice to learn and then extra time and cahones to start throwing actual tricks. I know I can barely even hit a toeside dub because I don't practice it...

Anyways, my personal preference is to stomp a big dub.

i figure if a wake can only get so big, then a doubleup can only get so big. and i dont like to think that

i'm not an expert in snowboarding, it just seems that if more room was given for speed then a larger wall could be used. i mean look at how much speed snowboarders are going into quarterpipes. idk i could be wrong.

I agree Mdizzle, but I would have to say that the majority of the "mainstream" people dont care if they have 5k in there boat and a 8.1LT engine. Or diesel engine for that matter. Look at MC, there most common boats sold are a X2 and an X15. Those are neither big boats nor heavily weighted. Both have great hull designs and can do almost anything on the water. Well, those 2 models generate a huge portion of there revenue. Without those kinds of sales you have to ask if the company would still be around or even have money to sponsor events like the pro tour that pay these front runners AKA pros to live and ride everyday. Me personally, ya Id love to see a bigger boat and bigger double ups and the pros pushing it more (if thats even freakin possible after this year ex-1260/bs900 haha) But I just dont know that we would have a sport if we push every boat to be a monster with a huge engine and tons of weight. A ton of us on here would prefer that yes and most probably disagree with me right now, but there are hundreds of thousands of people out there that enjoy wakeboarding, but would not prefer a 24' boat with a big block and 6 thousand lbs of ballast. Those are the people that are funding this sport. All this is IMHO

Go double ups woo!

I'll agree that seeing a well timed DU is sweet..but i was in the boat when Adam Errington was attempting a 1080 w2w and let me tell you it was just as impressive...