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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-24-2014, 10:37 AM Reply   
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/23/justic...ing/index.html

Fist off let me say this is a tragedy I'm sorry a life of a 12 year old is lost.

But with that said I must say. Why is a 12 year old kid walking the streets with a Replica gun? It looks like a copy of a Model 1911. The kid was carrying it in his waste band where most roaches carry their pistol. Any one who knows guns would be hard pressed to be able to tell weather this is a real gun or not.

The media is calling the gun the 12 year old was carrying a BB gun. (Here is where the media spin comes in) calling the kids gun a BB gun is like calling a trained fighting pitbull "the family pet". Yes technically it was a BB gun but how is any one to know or tell the diff.

Let's talk about the parents.
If your a parent and you allow your kid to have a replica gun your Stupid! Ok wait that's a bit harsh. If you allow your kid to have one you better make sure they have enough brain power to know tucking one away in your waste band and going down the street is a "bad Idea" IMO this was totally preventable and with parental oversight and education this would have never been a issue.


After the kid in Sonoma got shot and killed for having the Fake AK-47 you would think any parent with a brain would either take away there kids fake guns or "have the talk" with them about how fake guns can get you killed just as fast as a real gun.

Here is a pic of what the Media is calling a BB gun!
Attached Images
 
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       11-24-2014, 11:25 AM Reply   
Certainly tragic, but I don't see anything that indicates the officer was at fault.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-24-2014, 11:44 AM Reply   
It is being referred to as an air soft pellet gun, this generation's bb gun, on media outlets I'm seeing. They are all the new rage from kids 10-25. It is tragic, and unfortunate. The reaction is as well. To hear that the first move is some politician proposing to add distinguishable markings (like the one that was removed from this gun), rather than take a sociological approach to this. It sounds as if the kid had just finished watching every new age ganster movie/hip hop music video/ popular video game, and went out and acted the same. We can argue guns, parents, etc till we are all blue in the face, but until people stop getting rich glorifying these images and reputations, and adults admiring these films, shows and songs, this will only continue to occur. What if it was in Texas (or any other open carry state), and there was a very protective parent there? 1) that gun would have a greater chance at being real 2) that parent probably wouldn't wait to find out.
Old     (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       11-24-2014, 12:14 PM Reply   
I personally think it's ridiculous that no one is pointing out what I see to be pretty obvious about this situation. It sounds exactly like a suicide by cop. 12 year olds know what happens when you go for a gun after being asked to put your hands up. They know this because of all of those "glorified images" from violent films and video games. 12 year olds are however a high risk age group for suicide. He pointed a gun at people until the police were called and then he finished the job by going for the gun when the police arrived. If it weren't for all of the actual unnecessary police violence, this wouldn't even be news.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       11-24-2014, 11:48 PM Reply   
Unfortunately I see 12yr olds gunning down other teenagers on an almost weekly basis here in Chi Town. Until people actually walk a mile in our shoes they will never understand the propensity of violence at such a young age. It's easy to Monday night quarterback and dissect every dynamic situation wells and months afterwards. Ask anyone of them to stand in front of someone who may or may not be pointing a real gun at their head and see what their reaction is? He's only twelve is no excuse. Anyone who thinks the police are trigger happy in this day in age is out of their mind. Most police second guess/ hesitate longer than they should due to all the lawsuits and baggage that comes with discharging their weapon.

Couple years back we took a bunch of media trash through our Simulations training in shoot or don't shoot scenarios after they took some training. Guess what......every single one of them failed miserably. They shot just about everyone they weren't supposed to from kids to soccer moms and shrugged it off. Unfortunately in real life you don't second chances when life or death stares you down.
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       11-25-2014, 1:01 AM Reply   
If it's an airsoft gun, doesn't it have to have an orange tip?
Old     (ifishok)      Join Date: Mar 2002       11-25-2014, 5:28 AM Reply   
I believe the orange tip was removed.
Old     (corerider)      Join Date: May 2008       11-25-2014, 6:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeworld View Post
If it's an airsoft gun, doesn't it have to have an orange tip?
Yes they do legally, but the orange tip is comical at best. I bought one of these for my now 8yo daughter last Christmas and was determined to paint it some bright color all over to make sure no one ever thought it was a real gun because it looks so realistic it isn't even funny! She has only ever held it once because of her own boneheaded actions that caused me to take it away an decided she wasn't mature enough yet to safely handle that kind of responsibility.

No joke this thing from a minimal distance will look like a real pistol!!!
Old     (CRS_mi)      Join Date: Jul 2011       11-25-2014, 7:20 AM Reply   
It's probably because the cop is racist... oh wait... nevermind. Yeah, no way would I let my kids carry something around that looked that real.
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       11-25-2014, 8:40 AM Reply   
Wow, parents are dumb. My son has an AR15 replica airsoft gun and he actually painted over the tip. Then he spent an hour scraping it off when I saw what he had done. And he certainly isn't allowed to wander the neighborhood with that thing even with the orange tip. These things look so real that they really shouldn't leave your yard unless you're looking for trouble.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-25-2014, 9:32 AM Reply   
When the Boy in Sonoma was shot and killed for having the Fake AK that should have been a wake up call for ALL PARENTS to talk with their kids and let them know what can happen and how to interact with police in the event that they ever would have a encounter with police. It's a diffrent world these days we used to have BB guns as kids and go hiking with out parental supervision with them, never ever did anyone ever think they would be mistaken as a real gun or Fear that you could be the target for the police. But then again these days you would never let your 10 year old go stomping threw the canyons by them selfs, it's to bad we used to have so much fun!!!
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-25-2014, 9:36 AM Reply   
The orange tip doesn't do much good when it is below your waste band! If I see that gun in someone's pants, that's a real gun as far as I am concerned. It does bother me that he was shot and killed but I don't know the whole story. I will wait for full details before forming an opinion as to whether or not it was justified.
Old     (3MAX)      Join Date: Aug 2010       11-28-2014, 2:57 PM Reply   
Have you guys watched the video of the encounter with the cops? They simply pull up and shoot this kid. No time for a verbal exchange at all. I realize it's dumb for parents to allow a child to run around with a realistic looking pistol, and the kid had apparently scared some folks with it, but in this situation I believe the officer acted too quickly. He was only 26, been on the job less than 6 months and probably amped up and nervous about approaching someone with a gun. I realize police are put in life threatening situations and have to make split second decisions, but you can't shoot someone simply because they are possessing a gun. Very tragic situation.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-28-2014, 6:25 PM Reply   
Old     (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       11-28-2014, 11:25 PM Reply   
There is no reason for any kid to have a replica gun of any kind ever. No possible good can come from it.
Old     (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       11-29-2014, 7:00 AM Reply   
I agree with 3max. Several people at that police department and city need to be fired. From that video it seems ridiculously handled!!! No reason that kid should have been shot. Those police didn't give that kid a chance to even lay down the fake gun!

Why couldn't they have maybe stayed out on the road and accessed the situation first? No one was in danger no shots fired. Maybe used some freaking binocs and a bull horn to communicate first?

I'm usually always on the side of the police but in this case these 2 clowns were wrong and their poor decisions cost a child his life. Can't get that back. Also some blame needs to go on the 911 dispatcher, why didn't they mention that the gun was reported as a possible fake???

Last edited by Nordicron; 11-29-2014 at 7:08 AM.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-29-2014, 2:07 PM Reply   
^^ If you only saw the video above, it only shows when they pull up. Not saying they couldn't have approached it better, but watch one that shows footage from even 5 min earlier. He seems to walk alongside others on the sidewalk and threaten them with the gun, there's even someone who sits at the bench while he walks around who then leaves, he dances, he throws a snow ball and then jumps on it and smashing it, all as if he has taken over this park area. It makes denverriders explanation seem pretty realistic, like he "knew" what was likely going to happen regarding cops coming, whether he understood that no one will know. At a minimum the video makes it feel as if he was more threatening than initial media reports were making it seem.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-29-2014, 5:20 PM Reply   
Regardless of what state of mind this kid was in (like you said we'll never know) it's pretty clear that this was botched by the officers. If they have ascertained the situation from a distance as you theorize, they certainly have time to prepare and use nonlethal options to subdue the kid.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       11-30-2014, 5:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Regardless of what state of mind this kid was in (like you said we'll never know) it's pretty clear that this was botched by the officers. If they have ascertained the situation from a distance as you theorize, they certainly have time to prepare and use nonlethal options to subdue the kid.
You're kidding me right? You're not actually saying police should explore less lethal options first when approaching an armed offender are you? You don't bring an Asp or Taser to a knife fight within 21ft or gun fight. The offenders actions always dictate yours. You don't start at the bottom and work you're way up the use of force ladder when the off Eder is already at the top. That's how you end up a statistic and a training video.
That video shows nothing except the fact that gun fights and confrontations with armed offenders happen in a blink of an eyea and within 15ft in which you make life or death situations. This isn't TV where you negotiate. This is real life where you either take action or end up with a pipes and drums funeral. Could you see where the patrol car was before it pulled up? No you couldn't. How do you know it wasn't parked down the street observing? You don't because the video shows a 1 dimension of a multidimensional situation. This is a replica gun made to look exactly like a real one. Even without that fact, handguns and rifles such as Ak's come in bright pink, flourecent yellow, green, camo etc. I wouldn't be second guessing anyone holding something even remotely like that in a threatening manner. "Normal" people don't walk around and display a hand gun in a public park. Again the actions of the offender dictate those of the police.

All that video shows is a police car pulling up and a lethal force confrontation ensuing. You can't make out any actions the offender showed , what was said, or what the police knew prior from this distance. You have no info o what the actions of the offender were.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       11-30-2014, 5:20 PM Reply   
Also some blame needs to go on the 911 dispatcher, why didn't they mention that the gun was reported as a possible fake???

You treat every gun call as its real. Do you use time distance and shielding? Of course you do. Again I am not saying these guys were right or wrong or their tactics were something officers should follow. I am simply saying comments like these are assinine. If the actions of the offender are consistent with an armed offender and not a kid "playing" with a toy gun you don't sitvthere and ask questions. Again see post above about fake looking "real guns"
I am not about stand there and let them pull the trigger first to see if it shoots real bullets then decide if I'll shoot back. They obviously just should've shot the gun out of his hand or shot him in the foot as a warning.

Last edited by xstarrider; 11-30-2014 at 5:25 PM.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       11-30-2014, 7:44 PM Reply   
I don't understand how anybody can make a judgment by watching a 10 second video clip. I will say though that it is worth noting the officers pulled up in the grass right next to the suspect instead of driving and stopping on the street. That seemed to indicate some sort of immediate threat was perceived. Sad all the way around.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-30-2014, 11:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
They obviously just should've shot the gun out of his hand or shot him in the foot as a warning.
Please tell me that's sarcasm..
Old     (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       12-01-2014, 12:50 PM Reply   
In my experience in police work you never know if a quick approach or hanging back watching is the right way to go until afterwards then you know which decision would have been better.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-01-2014, 4:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
Please tell me that's sarcasm..
Scarcasm I think not ! .............. I see it in movies and on tv all the time.



In my experience in police work you never know if a quick approach or hanging back watching is the right way to go until afterwards then you know which decision would have been better.


QUOTE OF THE WEEK ^^^^^^^^^^
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-01-2014, 5:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
Scarcasm I think not ! .............. I see it in movies and on tv all the time.
Umm like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff4XuPtAOUk

Ok this is my take on it. Why would you (as a cop) pull up so close? most people are a pretty crappy shot 30 feet away. (gangstas that shoot sideways are even worse) So why not pull up further back and give your self a little distance?
Old     (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       12-01-2014, 6:49 PM Reply   
I'll say it again...there is no possible good that can come from possessing a replica gun. Nothing good.
Old     (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       12-01-2014, 8:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
I'll say it again...there is no possible good that can come from possessing a replica gun. Nothing good.

Yeah especially if your gonna have some poorly trained perhaps wrongly hired cop roll up on u and shoot first ask questions second.

I had many bb and pellet guns growing up some of them hand guns that looked pretty dang real. My daughters have played with those airsoft guns in the backyards in the neighborhood this summer having bb wars! This is just wrong what happened to this kid, these cops are wrong in this case.
Old     (quik876)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-02-2014, 10:43 AM Reply   
I feel that they need to arrest the 911 caller for this, because the idiot that called 911 is DIRECTLY responsible for the kids death ( I mean really, they call 911 and then LEAVE the area? I can understand getting a "safe" distance if you're unsure about the situation, but don't leave the area after calling 911) , on top of THAT the idiot gave very vague info, saying that the kid was waiving around a "probably fake" gun so that should tell ya right there that the 911 caller was trying to stir up problems, just like they arrested the idiot a couple months ago that called 911 on someone who was open carrying their firearm in their holster saying they were a threat. The cops show up, question folks that were there and arrest the caller instead because not only did they abuse the first responder resource, it threatened the lives of innocent bystanders (as well as the on scene officers), and the individual who was open carrying their firearm.

As for the officers' part, they did not seem to make any gestures like they were saying anything to the kid (especially without any audio we can't be SURE of what verbal exchange happened between the officers and the kid and they basically pulled up right in front of the kid and got out and pulled their weapons (granted I understand that they have a VERY small window to act but still, somethin' just doesn't add up.

Now I will say that the kid shouldn't have a potentially dangerous item (even if it IS a toy gun, airsoft, or BB gun) without the orange safety tip on it because this is the kind of foolishness that ensues, because there's FAR too many idiots (especially anti gun idiots at that) that're out there.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-02-2014, 3:42 PM Reply   
Orange safety tips are about as affective as most gun laws...Poorly thought-out and meaningless.

Paint the muzzle of a real gun orange and you've leveled the playing field.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       12-02-2014, 4:04 PM Reply   
What a tragedy, my condolences to the family and the officer.

It’s easy to Monday morning quarterback these situations from the comfort of our living rooms in front of our big screen TV’s in the suburbs. Part of the concern is the perception that the LEO’s culture has changed from “protect and serve” to “enforce the law”. It’s easy to see why when the realities of many of the neighborhoods that these stories come from are far uglier and lawless than what most of us know or want to admit exists in the USA. This isn’t happening inside gated communities and high rise condos folks. It’s happening in the inner cities where the threat is real every day. Some people might say it is profiling but I call it situational awareness. A total culture change by all parties and races is necessary for this to change. Unfortunately our current administration is about division and has set relationships between LEO’s and minorities back decades.
Old     (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       12-03-2014, 10:22 AM Reply   
This is a messed up situation. What is even more messed up is how the media focuses on this and gets everyone even more riled up about bad cops and the whole Ferguson deal, just fueling the fire.

An even worse situation that is getting zero media coverage is that a 12 year old boy got in a pickup to leave a friend's birthday party, and got shot in the head.
Why aren't they saying anything about this? Perhaps a race issue? The boy was a 12 year old, red headed, caucasion. The guy who shot him? Black. Flip the races and this becomes one of the biggest stories of the year.
Police trying to question anyone at the party are just getting shut out with silence, no one there who witnessed it will talk to police.

http://www.wsav.com/story/27461852/1...ot-in-savannah
on this link (NBC news affiliate) they give a full description of the guy, but decline to say race, because, you know, it could be anyone.
http://wjcl.com/2014/11/25/police-re...r-olds-murder/

Here, they do not have as detailed of description, but do at least have that basic information. The media shapes the message how they want it. They want to fuel the fire that's currently going on (figuratively and literally) across the nation, by the Ferguson issue.

While this story gets pushed down. Don't tell me if the races were reversed, that there wouldn't be full media coverage and huge public outrage. You know there would be.

I hate the media for this reason. Very manipulative.

Last edited by phathom; 12-03-2014 at 10:25 AM.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       12-04-2014, 8:31 AM Reply   
and the plot thickens.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cle...j757?ocid=iehp
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-04-2014, 8:36 AM Reply   
^whoa, that looks like fodder for a big civil award.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-04-2014, 8:55 AM Reply   
Regardless of what state of mind this kid was in (like you said we'll never know) it's pretty clear that this was botched by the officers. If they have ascertained the situation from a distance as you theorize, they certainly have time to prepare and use nonlethal options to subdue the kid.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-05-2014, 6:27 PM Reply   
http://www.contracostatimes.com/news...chmond-streets
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-07-2014, 9:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post

Man, how does such an incompetent dumb-ass become a cop? They need to be a little quicker on booting such obvious idiots like this.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-20-2014, 10:06 PM Reply   
Quick test.

Name:  image.jpg
Views: 415
Size:  62.8 KB
Old     (magic)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-21-2014, 11:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
Quick test.

Attachment 37644
I bike and run some local trails that wind all over the neighborhoods where we live. Have lost count how many times I've come hauling butt down the trail to find a pack of young kids with Airsoft guns. Super unnerving first couple of times and they have all ways been good and pointed them barrels down. I can totally see how you would never know which was real. I conceal carry at times, have thought about that and how fast things could escalate.

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