HLCD problems!!!!!

I have 2 crossfire EH2 horn loaded compression drivers (45 watts @ 8 ohms) and 2 crossfire 8" mid bass drivers (175 watts @ 3 ohms) on the tower of my boat powered by a Zapco 4 channel 360 watt amp and I have blown the driver side horn diaphragm twice. My friend says that the speakers sound like they are "clipping" I have had a lot of problems with local dealer that built this system for me. They have not been willing to solve the problem for me or even help me solve the problem. I have lost all faith in them. Can anyone help me out?

what head unit are you using ?
what crossover are you using ?
how long are your interconnects ?
are you using the symbilink ?

i think the 360/4 is too small of a amp and the crossfire horns are too delicate for this application..

would suggest a zapco 750 or 1000 and selenium horns.. and if your head unit is a clarion 2v unit then there is another problem.

more to come...

I am the friend who thinks that clipping was going on...

I also thought that the amp was too small (however the speakers are LOUD!) and that is why I think they are blowing. The only thing I know is that his deck is an Alpine 9856. I doubt that voltage is an issue since a line driver/RCA signal booster was installed. I really think that the amp is having to work to hard and not getting enough power to the speakers so its causing them to blow when turned up all the way. The shop that installed this system of his said it was "tuned" properly and that he could run it all day long at full volume (on his PAC-LC1's...deck is not turned up all the way) and have no issues.

I am sure he will be able to fill you in on the rest tomorrow. I told him to post on here because I know that you guys know your audio stuff! I can do basic install but get lost with these more advanced systems.

are you using a line driver and a symbilink driver ?

I am pretty ignorant to all of this stuff but I will try my best to answer everything I can. Thank you for your help.

The head unit is an Alpine 9856
My receipt says the crossover is crocx23l (3 way electronic crossfire crossover)
The deck is to the right of the driver and the amps and crossover are mounted on the left side of boat in a storage area. probably using 16-20' cables.

I don't know what a symbilink driver is but there is nothing on my receipt about it. I looked where all the amps are stored and I didn't see anything called a line driver or symbilink driver. I may not have either.

How do you have the horns and the drivers wired...if yrou installer wired the horns in parallel, you are sending to much power to those horns. You could send 20-30 watts to them and maek your ears bleed. How did your installer attenuate the horns?

line driver/symbilink/cable length really have no effect on the speakers getting blown. Most of that stuff really isn't necessary, and it is confusing the issue.

sounds to me like simply the HP crossover is set at too low of a frequency, if at all.

HCLD should get plenty loud with that amp.

tim.. yes it does...

there is a really strong chance the amp is clipping.. wether the signal voltage is too high (could be) or too low (possibilty with long cable lengths) - this depends where the line driver is and this can be compounded if a symbilink cable driver is installed..)

overall, i dont think the amp is big enough (1) and change out the drivers to higher powered pro audio drivers (set the crossover for them at 2k 12db)

to low voltage with RCA's...come on. not in a 16 -10 foot run. no way, even using wal-mart cables. clubmyke, your way over analyzing this problem.

check your crossover settign and how the "sytem" is wired.

the crossfire EH2 tech sheet gives these specs for setting the crossover.
6db/octave 2.8khz
12db/octave 1.4khz
18db/octave 1khz
24db/octave 750hz
frequency response 650Hz to 18Khz
Max power 80 watts, Minimum power 40 watts

I don't know for what db range mine is set at (ex 6db, 12db, 18db, 24db) but it is set to approx 200hz

I can't find a line driver. Would it be located behind the deck because I have looked everywhere else for it and can't find one.

I could also use help finding out a cross reference number for a selenium diaphragm. Crossfire doesn't make these horns anymore and nobody seems to know how I can get a replacement all they can tell me selenium makes one. All I can find on their website is it is a 2" titanium diaphragm.

On lower range HCLD's I would set the HP crossover at 2kHz or higher. If it is set at 200Hz, that is why you are blowing your drivers.

90W should be plenty for the HCLD's. It may be underpowering the 8's, but that is another story.

The only reason to use a line driver or higher voltage in a car stereo is to reduce the effects of interference based noise. Don't let your audio salesman tell you otherwise. In most cases if you are using decent components it won't make a difference.

asking a 4v-6v low to mid car deck to drive "2" 16'(total 32') rca's is too much... this has been covered ad nauseam here and i dont want to go over it... a line driver is needed when using pac's and long rca's (one can be added via symbilink cable for cheap).. the difference is staggering...

btw, the crossfire horn is more than likely made by selenium and was marketed crossfire..can u post a pic without the body ?

btw, the 2k 12db crossover is the for the hcld's....

Clubmyke so to make sure I understand correctly, I need to purchase a line driver and turn my crossover up to 2k (Do I need to know how to adjust it to 12db because I didn't see that adjustment on the crossover.)

Here are the photos of the crossover driver.

you don't need a line driver if your gains are set properly.

tim- i disagree.. there is alot of signal loss due to cable capacitance of 32'.

there are alot of other factors to consider such as output impedence of the head unit and the ability to run high voltage and low impedence...btw, have you ever wondered why high end manufactures make high voltage pre outs ?(my eclipse is 16v).. this is further compounded by using 1v pods...

zapco makes a rca/symbilink adapter that is cheap and you can add 12db to the signal...

brian - i would call up crossfire and ask them where they sourced their hcld drivers from... chances are it is still a current model.

if crossfire doesnt have the info, you might want to send the pic to www.usspeaker.com and ask them who makes it..

The reason for the high voltage is to improve signal to noise ratio, reducing the effect from noise originating from outside sources, coming in through the wire. This is why the high end manufacturers use them, although they are not always necessary.

If you don't have a noise problem, it is not needed.

Also, if he has two 16' RCAs it is probably for the two sets of preamp outputs, not a 32' run.

Yes, there will be some signal loss. That is given, but unless outside noise is introduced the signal will be the same. The signal loss is not so much as the line driver manufacturers would like to to believe, but I digress. Compare input and output levels of various waveshapes on an oscilloscope with a 1 ft RCA and a 20 ft RCA, and you really won't see much difference. If you have a clean signal at 2V (the standard) and a clean signal at 16V, the only difference is the amount of gain the input stage of the amplifier will need to produce. If your gain setting are wrong, sure you can saturate the output stage of the head unit, as well as overload the input stage of the amplifier.

Amen, Tim. Caddy, have you ever measured the signal loss over x feet of RCA before, or is this what you read on the internet?

I just noticed a 1X and 10X switch on the crossover so I believe the crossover is set at 2khz, but there is also a "front level" with a minimum-maximum dial set approx 3/4 of the way. What is this and is it set properly?

Here are some specs on the crossover,

http://www.crossfirecaraudio.com/images/Processors/Cx23l.pdf

2ch/4ch, 2 way / 3 way 12dB/Oct. Electronic Crossover, Continuously variable crossover points, Variable 12 dB boost at 45Hz, Separate 6 dB Gain Line Driver for Subwoofer/Rear/Front Outputs, Remote port for optional CFR-1 Subwoofer Level Controller, Output level: 7.5V RMS

Ok so the HP is at 2kHz.

The 'front level' is simply the gain setting on the crossover, for those channels.

It seems like there are two possibilities.
1) The horns are run parallel, to two of the channels bridged, which would be a 4 ohm load, with that amp rated at 180W, too much power.

If the amp is overpowering the speakers, it can be operated safely, but you can blow a driver by simply overpowering it, if you turn it up too loud.

2) The horns are running to individual channels on the amp, at 8 ohms, getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 25W each, which would be underpowered.

If the amp is underpowering the speaker, it can be operated safely, but you can blow the speaker if you clip the amplifier, by turning it up too loud.

Unfortunately, both scenarios are user error. Basically, if you hear any distortion from your system, you are driving it too hard and putting it at risk for failure. This can be countered somewhat by setting your gain structure in such a manner to virtually eliminate the possibility, but on some lower level recordings, you lose the ability to turn it up as loud. I have my boat set up this way, as we usually don't have it cranked all the way, and I want to ensure my system doesn't get fried by friends driving the boat when I am riding.

The thing that is odd is that it has been the drivers side both time. Granted, it could be from one of the components (head unit/crossover/amp) causing some level imbalance between left and right. This could be manufacturing tolerance, or maybe a sign of a faulty component.

If you don't want to keep blowing these things, you can do a few things
1) take it to another reputable shop, ask them to troubleshoot. keep in mind your system should work perfectly fine without adding extra components (pricey cables, balanced lines, etc)
2) replace the HCLD's with units of higher power handling, as caddywampus suggested earlier
3) set the gain structure in such a manner that no matter how loud you turn it up on the head unit with a high level recording, you don't hear any distortion in the speakers. essentially what the shop should have done correctly in the first place. This would be accomplished in the first option that I mentioned.

A larger amplifier shouldn't be needed for the HCLD's because you would only need more power in the case that they are run on individual channels, in which case, again you can run it parallel and bridge two channels of the amplifier, making much more efficient use of the power.

Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it.

Just one more question which shows more of my ignorance. I said the amp was a Zapco 360X4 but I was mistaken it is a Zapco 360.4 which is 4 channels X 40 watts does this change any of that and I don't believe they are run in parallel.

sam and brian (here comes the pissing match)

have i personally measured it ? no.... however i seen plenty plenty of industry publications that have measured signal loss after 1.5 meter length of cable... not to mention i have owned a bunch of high end audio gear over the last 20 so years and have heard the difference....with that being said i have gone totally balanced (ie xlr) in my car AND home system -my reference which consist of:

classe cam mono 350's
audio research ls 25mk2
audio aero prima dac
cec tl2x bel driven cd transport
audio physic libra speakers
xlo signature 2 interconnects
synergistic designer reference speaker cable
audience power cables

my car and boat system is eclipse's last balanced head 16 volt head unit to zapco reference amps via symbilink into id speakers (boat) and beyma/selenium drivers (skylon cans)...

i have also done a few installs for personal friends and they all have added line drivers afterwards and were really surprised by the difference...

you are forgetting the preamp output sections of these deck have poor parts and dont have high voltage low impedence capabilty (if you havent played around with the high end ($1500 +++ denon's, clarions, or macintosh head units - then you havent heard what a high quality preamp sound like..)

running 20-30' of cable requires high voltage signal....not to mention the impedence is changed due to changing of the passive pacs...

btw, i am really surprised to be having this discussion on this...

a line driver was the best thing i ever added to my system and would never consider having a stereo without one. how that relates to this discussion i dont know just my .02

psychoacoustics

I have had mixed results with line driver's
Audio Control's (Line Drive) And PG's Line driver. When using a head unit with 2 or less volts output a line driver can help you out big time. But when your Headunits signal comes out of a head unit and into a line driver and then into a Eq I thought it was to many processers. To many things to adjust that work against each other. IMO the less things you can have in line to get the best possable signal the better.
A powerd EQ can have the same type of results as a line driver. A powerd EQ and a line driver together "No Bueno" One or the other. A Alpine 9856 has good line voltage. I would get a EQ if you think you need a boost in you line voltage.

Brian/Tim/Sam,

I recommend you take your discussion off line or to a different forum, maybe an audio site. PM me if you want my input. Some of the info here is garbage or just posted for the sake of an argument, search the archives under his name and find his own contradictions.

Guys,
Why there is always a need for a pissing match?

(Message edited by angrygolucky on July 25, 2007)

Not a pissing match as far as I am concerned, just trying to help Brian out. Keep him from spending money on things that won't solve his problem.

Also, Brian, I was referring to the 360.4, as there are not any 360Wx4 amps that I am aware of.

I will not argue about audio with anyone who admits to purchasing "designer" speaker cables.

mikeski....whatever..

btw, i really think taking the question to a car audio site is a great suggestion !!!!! there are lots of car audio installs that have 30' plus feet of rca's with pac controllers...

if you disagree with what i posted- please by all means point out where i am wrong...

i have never read a post here over the last 3 years where someone didnt notice a substantial increase sound quality when a line driver is used in this application or experienced a determent using one- if i am wrong please let me know

given the nature of the question and the gear installed there are a couple of different approaches that can be taken with this set-up...

a symbilink setup should hae been included with the amp if it was purchased new... they arent that expensive and go for about $20 used.. this a a basic line driver...

a more elegant/functional symbilink setup would be with a transmitter and volume control knob...it is the same cost as 2 long sets of rca's, a pac, and a line driver and a heck of alot easier to install..

btw, grant offered a really good solution (eq) that takes care of 2 problems with this type of install (volume control and linedriver)

regardless of what bickering has come across - i dont think the 360.4 can cut it with the 8's, and hcld. since boat audio is a unreinforced listening area -amps hae to be 2x more powerful than what is projected and 3x-4x more powerful for tower speakers

tim- i apologize for coming across like a audio snob..there is a lot of things that theoretically /logically dont make sense on paper but do work out in real world application in this area (ie tubes vs. solid state, analog vs. digital, cables etc...)the only reason i mentioned the high end car units is there is a big difference between 4v-5 from them is alot different than 4v-5v off a sub 500 head unit compared to a $1500 heaf unit...though the voltage is the same on paper - there is a noticable difference between the two..

I'll stand behind Tim on this one and only add that as long as the amp gains are set up for the lower input levels the audio will sound the same. A higher level in cant make a 600 watt amp any louder or clearer. Line level booster doesnt clean the signal, just boosts the level but if the head unit( 4-5volt is what im talking about) is working correctly the output from the amp will be the same. Aplifier is an amplifier, has a max input level and output.

bob - i agree with you on this..

however when running a signal through 32'of rca cable there will be signal loss due to capacitance and this will be compounded by the pac controller... not to mention 32' of cable is subject to a lot of electrical interference

this is why true balanced circuts are dual differential and run high voltages (2 signals that are + and -)that will have minimal signal degradation due to cancellation (xlr is the defacto standard in proaudio...)

with that being said, am i suggesting a balanced signal with 32' of cable? no !!! if you can do it, then by all means "yes"... but if you cant, then a 10v-12v audio control line driver (reasonably priced and very,very high quality (output section is leaps and bounds above a sub $200 alpine head unit) will do wonders for this application... or a add a symbilink connector/converter which comes with the amp and can supply a 12 db gain !!!

there was a previous post awhile from electrical engineer and gave a very eloquent formula and explanation of how much was lost...

chances are if you havent tried adding a line driver in this application, then you might want to experiment for yourself and come upon your own conclusion (use inductive thinking vs deductive)..

btw, do a search on line drivers in this section and see what you come up with... everyone has pretty much experienced a night and day difference in this application..

peace out,

mike

you misinterpreted my comment about not arguing with people who buy designer speaker cables. I implied that it removes all credibility.

sorry for being a jerk.

I agree with Tim also. I was an installer from 1989 to 1994 and back then the highest voltage pre-outs were 2V... I think Alpine made the first 4V pre-out around 93-94. Anyway, we never had problems with long runs back then, and I once did a system in a 30' Scarab.
Heck back then a lot of people didn't even want to replace their stock head unit and we had to use line level converters to install an amp, and that even worked ok in most cases.