When someone gets hurt behind your boat??

"The sound of some one knocking on wood" Nothing has happend to me but, I was wondering how this works, I would like to hear from real time experiances, Not I heard from a friend or I saw it on Opra, type of thing. What happens If or when someone gets hurt riding behind your boat ya know and its there own fault. I.E crash or somthing you had nothing to do with. Are your friends wrong to sue your insurance company? Do you make sure the people that ride behind your boat have there own insurance so they dont have to sue your or your insurance company.

i have been hurt behind a couple of boats and didnt sue anyone.

This is something I have been concerned with. I generally won't let anyone ride behind my boat unless they have health insurance. If someone brings a friend, I'll even ask them if they have it. If anyone asks why, all I have to do is point at my leg and tell them it cost the insurance company $50k to fix it.

If one of my friends got seriously injured, and their insurance company didn't cover everything and they could not financially cover the rest I would expect them to sue my insurance company. If I had to sell my boat because I couldn't get insurance on it anymore, it would be better than to see a friend suffer because they couldn't pay bills from an injury. I carry more liability/medical insurance than the minimum on my boat for this purpose.

As for myself, currently in addition to my standard health insurance, I have supplemental accident insurance. This gives me additional coverage to help cover the extra costs involved in hospital trips. My previous leg injury, while about $50k for the insurance company, took about $5k out of pocket. I want to soften the blow if something like that ever happens again.

Grant...That's a seriously interesting point you brought up. I never would have thought about it till now. Most of my friends that ride with me are insured. Most of them have also hurt themselves pretty badly at some point and have had to use their insurance. I have give a lot of pulls to people that I don't know that well (friends of friends, etc) and I think I'll be paying closer attention in the future. I think for the most part, people that ride know the inherent risks and are prepared for the consequences.

Your boat insurance probably has medical coverage and liability. If they get hurt and it is their fault, the can get the medical 1-5k easily. They can try to blame you and get liability money, 20K or more. They may blame you for your equipment that they used, your driving, your ????

The girl who broke her leg trying to wakeboard blamed me for helping her into the bindings, saying that they were too tight. These were old-style sandal bindings... She was such a pain to my insurance, that they settled. I wanted it to go to court...she took the "assumption of risk"

Telling people in advance that people do get hurt helps. I doubt having them sign a waiver would really hold up.

Some people wouldn't have a problem having a good friend get money from insurance. I just don't believe it is right to mar someone's record with a liability claim.

Even if they have insurance, they can still do a claim against you. It all comes down to the honesty and integrity of the person.

A friend of mine had an interesting scenario. We had a couple drinks on the beach with some people we met who had an X-30. My friend is a pretty good rider and wanted a pull behind their boat. They were glad to tow him and he ended up blowing out his knee on a tantrum. He was insured so that covered the costs of surgery, etc. however I thought to myself it's a screwed up world when a person like my friend could try and blame the owner of the boat and most likely win in court with a strong case because we had been drinking with these people beforehand. Granted we were not drunk by any means, and my friend is not a big enough dick to pull such a stunt, just the fact that it could have been possible to own their X-30 even made me mad. But it's true you gotta be careful these days who you pull and what the circumstances are in case they get injured.

Well if you live in Florida you can vote for ammendment 3, which limits contingency lawyers to 30% of the first $250K and 10% thereafter. They can still get reasonable expenses on top of that. And the lawyers are trying to scare everyone into believing that they will get crappy medical care as a result. I'd rather vote that if they take a contingency case and lose that the lawyer has to pay damages to the defendant.

Lawyers suck, our legal system sux. The freak'n playgrounds don't even have the huge cool slides they did back when I was a kid. Pretty soon the govt will be bundling us in bubble wrap and telling we have to be in it 24/7. Anyone who gets behind a boat should automatically assume responsibility for their own injuries unless the boat driver does something really stupid.

If seriously injured (think catastrophic, like brain or spinal injury) even your best friend will sue you, regardless if the injury was the result of a trick gone bad or a slip off your newly oiled swim step.
Protect yourself and your assets accordingly.

Two words: "Umbrella Policy".

It adds to the liability of your boating, auto, etc. policy. I got one as soon as I bought the boat...

Friends are friends until they get hurt...then they are plaintiffs. (I read this somewhere here before and it certainly could ring true...)

Live here in Toronto,Ontario, Canada. We have government supplied coverage called OHIP. It's great.

Mike, that's what I was gonna say, it's the onlt way to go in my book.

I was hurt riding behind someone's boat that is here on wakeworld fifteen months ago. I am still not able to work, and the doctors are finally talking about doing surgery in December. I have had health insurance, of course, but now that I'm not able to work it's a COBRA thing that I have to pay well for (still much less than my monthly medical bills).

I am in law school currently...so I'm familiar with the system.

I would never sue them.

However, my insurance company has written to me on three different occasions, asking how the accident happened, what I was doing, who I was with, etc. I'm sure that they are thinking if they get enough information they can try to recover some costs.

In my opinion, people get hurt all the time wakeboarding. I was not in bad shape, I was not doing anything really risky, it was just a fluke accident. Ruining another person's life over it isn't worth it.

Patty,

Sorry to hear about your injuries. In addition to an umbrella policy (as a boat owner) - I also believe long term disability insurance is also vital (for everyone).

-Keith

Man thats disturbing. Makes you think twice about who you ride with.
Why would a waiver not hold up in court?

Waivers can hold up in court if it indicates the person was fully informed of the risks and accepts responsibility. However, it wouldn't absolve the boat owner of negligence.

I have said many times your friends become plaintiffs after an accident. If a child is injured it is far worse because its a parents responsibility to make an effort on their behalf. Yes; that means if they are serously injured and may have life long disabilities that could effect lifestyle or future income you will likely be sued. Most rationalize this by saying "I'm not suing you it's just you insurance"...

I feel an umbrella policy is a must. Hell most are cheaper than a months fuel 100-300 annually.

Also know the time limits for filing a personal injury claim against you in your state. Some areas it's a yr, some 2 yrs. If injured party is a minor they may be able to wait until they become an adult.

If someone is injured on your boat. Notify your carrier immediatly. If you dont you jeapordize coverage for future defense you may need.

What NONE of you have realized is that most health insurance plans have an assignment provision. If you are injured they have the right to subrogate from whoevers auto, boat homeowners etc... ins carrier. That is why Patty has received 3 letters from her carrier. If she responds they will certinly present a claim against the owners policy.

Medical insurance on your boat policy is valid REGARDLESS of fault and is essentially an open ck book to the policy med limit. Then it moves to the liability side and carriers often pay amounts less than 20-30k because thats where a legal defense will start. YES it sucks I agree.

I Hope this helps.

Rick

Happened to me last fall.

A guy that regularly rides with us blew out his acl. His health insurance company went after my boat insurance company even though he told them he took complete responsibility for the accident. My boat insurance covers anyone who gets hurt behind my boat, and there is no risk of my rates going up even if I had another incident while pulling someone.

This is why liability insurance is so important.

So far, I have never had a serious injury to a guest. I have had to take my own son to the hospital for a dislocated shoulder though, so I know first hand what can happen.

You might think that your friends would never challenge you for an injury that they sustained. What you may not realize is that sometimes it can happen despite what your friends wants.

I have had several occassions where a member of my family has become injured (knee, foot, ankle, shoulder, and a concussion....). When the insurance company gets the bills for what it considers to be an "accident" they immediatly start investigating to see if there is someone else they can make share the expense. The insurance company sends a form to me asking for details on the accident, other party's insurance, etc.

I always ignore the form or simply reply to it indicating no other party (even when there was one). I am sure, however, that if someone were to be injured on my boat, and they filled out the form their insurance company sent them, that their insurance company would contact my insurance company and neither myself or my friend may have any control of it.

Rod

Actually Cliff I wouldnt be surprised at all if you were cancelled or your rates went up. Never believe what and adjuster tells you regarding Underwriting guidelines always make seperate call and ask underwriting guidelines re prior med or liability losses. If they dont cancel your very lucky.

Rick

Had a close friend pull some muscles in his knee when trying to learn to ski. We told him hold on, but did not know he would hold on for dear life. he is a really good friend and got it fixed on his health insurance. i feel MOST "friends" would do the same, but others might not.

Man, Dan (Greenthumb) and I have no idea what you folks are talking about in this thread. Like he said, our taxes pay for all our medical coverage. Furthermore, when it comes to lawsuits, in this country, if you sue someone and lose, you pay for their legal fees. So, us Canucks would never think to sue in this type of situation. In Canada, We just don't see the lawsuits (or lawyers) that you guys south of the boarder do.

Food for thought.

Mike:

You can keep your gummint health-care. I wish we had 'loser pays' tort law here, though.

Speaking of food, I will trade you some lawyers for their weight in maple syrup and back-bacon, eh?

Rick (or anyone that knows),
Will insurance companies sell you an umbrella policy even if they aren't the insurer on the all the rest of your policies? (e.g. different insurer for homeowners, investment properties, autos, and boat) Or will they only sell an umbrella over and above the other policies they've written?
Thanks.

Yes. In fact, Rick set me up with an umbrella policy that goes on top of all my other policies and they are all from different companies. I did have to bring all the liability limits up to the specified level for my car, home, boat, etc. Then the umbrella sits neatly on top!

Boatsman Policy....insurance specifically for boating. This covers if driver or passengers and has a limit depending on policy what it will cover in the case you are sued for a passenger accident. Its not nearly has much as car insurance so its not bad.

Rick,

I didn't quite understand your reply, but the incident happened last fall and my rates haven't changed.

My agent told me that I'm covered for this type of incident, and that the number of claims of this type don't affect my premiums.

What your saying has me very concerned, how can I find out if he is correct or not?

Cliff,
Call your agent or broker to discuss the limits of liability and what you're exactly covered for. if you own a home, boat, autos, and have liquid assets, you should not go without an umbrella policy.

"...if you sue someone and lose, you pay for their legal fees. So, us Canucks would never think to sue in this type of situation. In Canada, We just don't see the lawsuits (or lawyers) that you guys south of the boarder do."

That's the way it should be. We have way too many lawyers running our country.

Joe,
Ah yes, I'm Canadian and you bring up maple syrup, back bacon and 'eh'. Clever AND original!

sorry everyone, as you were...

Geez, Mike, no need to check me into the boards, have a Molsen and relax.

Ok, let's see here...

Being in the insurance industry, I hope I can answer a few questions presented here.

First, the process wherein the rider's health insurance company pays their bills and then proceeds to pursue the boatowner's insurance is called "subrogation". EVERY policy (homeowners, automobile, boatowners, etc.) has a clause that allows the insurance company to pursue the party or parties responsible for the expenses incurred by their insured (ie: the rider/patient).

Boatowner's policies are very close to being a "strict liability" policy meaning, when anyone is on, around or behind the boat, the owner of the boat has a "strict liability" of insurance for those persons. Meaning, if someone is walking around your boat and slips on the water dripping from it, you could be liable.

The message here is, is that it does not matter if a boat guest has their own medical insurance, the boat owner realistically takes on an insurance responsibility for people in and around the boat.

Generally, insurance (homeowner's and boatowner's) is based upon the cost to repair/rebuild the risk insured and the premiums do not increase after a "liability" claim. However, the premiums can be heaved after a "property" damage claim. This is because the insurance is based upon the cost to replace the "risk", not necessarily on the number of liability claims. There are rate discounts for experienced boat owners, but they are negligible.

An Umbrella Policy is a must for anyone that owns a car, house, boat, or any combination of multiple (what I call) stationary and mobile policies (stationary = homeowner's and mobile = automobile/boat/RV, etc.). For about $200-$300 a year, you can get at least $1 million in blanket coverage.

So far as thinking that someone is "accepting the risk" when they ride, even if it is their own equipment, you would be incorrect.

There are sooooo many factors that the boat owner is responsible for that if any one of them are shown to have been handled negligently (driving, choosing a line through the water, how often looking in the mirror, choosing to drive with the Perfect Pass on or off, how many people allowed in the boat, loudness of music, type of tower or pole, choosing the lake/river to ride that day, what time of day, etc. - you get the point), the boat owner's insurance would find themselves in a position of having to pay something (depending on your state, even 1% at fault can trigger a 100% payout to a claimant. Most states have a shared liability so even if the boat owner is only 10% negligent, the claimant can get that 10%).

You cannot blame it all on the attorneys, nor can you blame the greed of the people, nor can you blame the insurance companies...

Blame it on Canada

HAHAHAHAH LOL Canada! Thats great, I know how did Canada come into this, I thought the canuck was Na Na Na NAing us like most canucks do. Yes if its so much better over there just keep it all to yourself, more butter for you. We wont be moving there anytime soon.

"Loveswater" Great info.

"You cannot blame it all on the attorneys, nor can you blame the greed of the people, nor can you blame the insurance companies."

Why not? Who else is to blame?

rodmcinnis says "I always ignore the form or simply reply to it indicating no other party (even when there was one)."

Maybe loveswater can chime in here, but I would think that if rodmcinnis's insurance company were to find out he is intentionally withholding information or lying, he could face significant financial issues (insurance company denying all claims leaving rodmcinnis to pay the costs) and possible criminal issues. I think you are exposing yourself to significant risk if you don't follow the requirements on your insurance policy which, I am certain include providing any and all requested information accurately and timely.

I have a Q for loveswater or any law-types:

I have heard from lawyers that if one maintains large coverage of + 1 million $ (US not Canadian)
that one becomes a "deep-pocket" target.
True or not?

(Message edited by spoon on October 24, 2004)

OHIP is the best, you know that if you get hurt your going to be looked after free of charge. So don't blame it on Canada because are government looks out for its people, although that is a really catchy tune from South Park.

spoon,
I can tell you about 10 years ago I was in an auto accident where my car hit some water, hydroplaned and hit another car causing the woman driver a broken kneecap. I had standard car insurance plus a $1M liability umbrella policy. She sued and one of the first things asked in discovery was how much and what kind of insurance I had. She sued for $1.25M. Fortunately, the accident was in Maryland which had a maximum allowed damages amount of $275,000. My insurance company settled for that amount.

Joe Mama

The claimant would not know who is a "deep pocket" or who is not. Better they go after the insurance policy you pay $200 a year for than go after the home you work your buttocks off for...

There is no way for a claimant to know who your insurance is or what coverage is available unless: 1) you tell them 2) they file a lawsuit, wherein they subpeona your insurance information, etc.

So far as not disclosing pertinent information, it is not so serious. The catch is this...if you are found to have provided misleading information or you have withheld material facts or you make a "material misrepresentation" your policy could be void from the date of that year's effective date, hence you would have no coverage for the incident. (IE: you are on your own for the claimant's claim).


To play a bit on words, remember "the best defense is a good offense".

Keep your insurance current and appropriate to your financial needs.

Keep up-to-date with boating rules, laws, etc.

Keep your driving and all-around boat/trailer handling skills sharp.

Keep your guests informed about boat policies and boat "etiquette".

Keep alcohol on the shore or in the coolers and never in the driver's hands.

Keep equipment well-maintained and make sure it is used in the appropriate manner.

Keep the boat well-maintained and protect it as you would your family.

Keep up your knowledge of the area you ride (water depth, obstacles, currents, etc.)

Basically, keep your eyes open to the future to protect yourself today.

How do you get this Umbrella?Do you just ask you current home owners and auto insurence agent about it?I know it's a stupid question but bare with me please.CONCERNED wakeboarder and a CONCERNED homeowner.

Big Ed

Just call your auto or homeowner's agent and ask...it usually is best to tie into your auto policy because you usually can get a discount on the PLUP (Personal Liability Umbrella Policy).

If you have your auto and home with the same insurance company, all the better for a good rate and simpler comprehensive coverage if something ill fated should occur.

loveswater,
Are you making an effort to contradict yourself here? In one instance you state "Better they go after the insurance policy you pay $200 a year for than go after the home you work your buttocks off for...", and in the next you state "So far as not disclosing pertinent information, it is not so serious. The catch is this...if you are found to have provided misleading information or you have withheld material facts or you make a "material misrepresentation" your policy could be void from the date of that year's effective date, hence you would have no coverage for the incident. (IE: you are on your own for the claimant's claim)."

It sure sounds like IT IS A BIG DEAL if you mislead your insurance company (i.e., you could end up paying the entire claim, possibly losing "the home you work your buttocks off for"). How could you possibly say "So far as not disclosing pertinent information, it is not so serious."??? I can understand inconsistencies in multiple postings, but in a single posting?? Are you a Kerry supporter??

Having an umbrella policy DOES NOT mean you have deep pockets. It means you are a well informed consumer theat has done well for yourself and has something to loose. In fact having an umbrella provides for a more agressive defense by your insurance company as they have more to loose on your behalf.

BIG ED: Any agent can help arrange a umbrella policy and they are not very expensive (Less than a new wakeboard or bindings for sure)
Expect to pay 200-400 annually. This is excess liability insuracne that pays only after all underlying policies have exhausted limits. Umbrellas require minimum underlying limits on your home, auto, boat etc.. to be anywhere from 300K to 500K per occurence. The higher the underlying limit the cheaper the umbrella will be.

Defending Louise (Loveswater): We have spoken in the past and she in fact helped me write the boat insurance article 2 years ago. Her statements above are all true and valid. Rather then attacking her statements be thankful she has offered a professional opinion here for free as she has had many years with a major carrier in varous positions of underwriting, loss adjustment etc...
She is absolutly correct if you have an accident dont disclose anything to anybody until it is demanded by a cop, court order or other judicial arm as it may make you a target. Regarding concealing material facts. If you choose not to disclose to your own carrier information that is pertanant your jaepordizing the very policy you rely on and have paid for. Should you lie on your application for insurance in order to get a policy issued @ a cheaper rate or obtain coverage that you would otherwise not qualify for a carrier could easily then flat cancel and provide no coverage.

Rick

Rick H,
I will attack loveswater statements when they are absolutely inconsistent (as hers were). Stating that "So far as not disclosing pertinent information, it is not so serious." and following that with "The catch is this...if you are found to have provided misleading information or you have withheld material facts or you make a "material misrepresentation" your policy could be void from the date of that year's effective date, hence you would have no coverage for the incident. (IE: you are on your own for the claimant's claim)." after she explicitly stated "Better they go after the insurance policy you pay $200 a year for than go after the home you work your buttocks off for..." is just plain ludicrous. The key here is have insurance, follow the requirements of the insurance, pay for the insurance and you may not lose your home. She should not indicate both positions. If she helped you with a boat insurance article 2 years ago, both you and she ought to know better. This is freshman year logic for crying out loud!!!!

(Message edited by wakeshoe on October 24, 2004)

For all the Canuck Health Care fans, I would ask how many Americans travel to Canada for helath care versus the vast number of Canucks who come to the U.S.? Fo enlightenment, I offer a sample from Canadian Mark Steyn's latest column (Fair Use claimed):

As for Canada, yes, under socialized health care, prescription drugs are cheaper, medical treatment's cheaper, life is cheaper. After much stonewalling, the Province of Quebec's Health Department announced this week that in the last year some 600 Quebecers had died from C. difficile, a bacterium acquired in hospital. In other words, if, say, Bill Clinton had gone for his heart bypass to the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal, he would have had the surgery, woken up the next day swimming in diarrhea and then died. It's a bacterium caused by inattention to hygiene -- by unionized, unsackable cleaners who don't clean properly; by harassed overstretched hospital staff who don't bother washing their hands as often as they should. So 600 people have been killed by the filthy squalor of disease-ridden government hospitals. That's the official number. Unofficially, if you're over 65, the hospitals will save face and attribute your death at their hands to "old age" or some such and then "lose" the relevant medical records. Quebec's health system is a lot less healthy than, for example, Iraq's.

One thousand Americans are killed in 18 months in Iraq, and it's a quagmire. One thousand Quebecers are killed by insufficient hand-washing in their filthy, decrepit health care system, and kindly progressive Americans can't wait to bring it south of the border. If one has to die for a cause, bringing liberty to the Middle East is a nobler venture and a better bet than government health care.

Ouch.

Wow Joe, that was easily the most ignorant post I've seen on here. That kind of political diatribe has no place on a website devoted to all of our love for the sport of wakeboarding. It offends me beyond imagination, as as I write this, I am fighting with restraint with the words I use.

Joe, I don't know if you have ever been in a Canadian hospital, or even in the country for that matter. I would sincerely hope that your ignorance stems from a lack of knowledge, and not some underlying hate for my country or its people.

Canada, including our decrepit, filthy health system, routinely rank among the top countries in the world to live, according to an annual United Nations study encompassing all types of factors related to quality of life. Your country also ranks right up there, and is a testiment to the high quality of life you have come to expect, as well.

A recent outbreak of C difficile has recently been reported in a Quebec hospital. The disease is an extremely difficult disease to beat after an outbreak has occured, as the bacteria can survive months on surfaces, and can only be seen through the most powerful of microscopes. It should be noted, also, that the same strain of C difficile has been seen in at least 4 states before it was ever seen in Canada.

Joe, I must say right now that I want no part of political arguments on here. I simply stated in a previous post that someone getting hurt on a pull behind my boat would be handled differently here than it may be handled in the U.S. I, in no way, insinuated that Canada was somehow superior in any way to your country. I have always loved my time in the U.S, and look forward to my next vacation there.

I would hope that some of our my informed American Wakeworld members would comment on the ignorance of your post. Political insults have no place on Wakeworld. Please refrain from ever using this type of medium to voice your misinformed opinions in the future.

Mike, don't worry about it. As soon as Joe Mama's job has been outsourced or given to some H2B Indians (dot not feather) and he can't get health insurance then he'll be signing a different tune.

Mike and John,
While it might be misplaced, I think for the most part Joe's posting was quoting a Canadian article. I think he failed to include starting and ending quotation marks. I think the first paragraph and the ending "Ouch" were his - the rest was the article. And the post might actually be fair game given the multiple postings in this thread touting the Canadian health care system. Don't know for sure.

There are no perfect systems anywhere that I know of because the systems will always either exploit or be exploited. Canadian Healthcare system is good if your poor because in true Canadian socialist (commie light) fashion everyone is equal and waits in the same line up. It is also abused by some people eg.women who use abortion as birth control, men becoming women paid for by tax dollars etc.
In America the drawbacks are if your poor sometimes your life savings is depleted by an accident, the pros are if you have money and need an operation you can probably have it within days.
Joe Mama's comments though largely incorrect are at least amusing. No amount of handwashing will stop the growth of superbugs. Pennicillin has been abused for years and this is a "natural" development.
Clinton swimming in Diarrhea (Trainspotting ), 50 years ago the over indulgent slob would be dead.

Mike O':

Ignorant?
Au contraire, mon cousin canadien.

Learn to read. Those stats and opinions are from Mark Steyn (fellow Canuck).

Quote: " Please refrain from ever using this type of medium to voice your misinformed opinions in the future." - Mike O'

Please refrain from trying to stifle opinions that differ from your own by making appeals to a herd mentality. Write to the Guardian or Chicago Sun-Times, maybe you can get Mark''s columns spiked if you don't like what he writes.

Once a collectivist, always thereafter, eh?

John:
H2B or Not H2B? That is a question?

Not 2 likely, although in this part of the country, I could lose my 'job' to a Cheyenne or Arapahoe.

How does one sign a tune? Autograph an Autoharp perhaps?

"In America the drawbacks are if your poor sometimes your life savings is depleted by an accident, the pros are if you have money and need an operation you can probably have it within days."

If you are poor, you don't have a life saving. But you could have a life savings, and become poor as the result of a medical crisis. IMO, the health care industry does need some sort of govt regulation. I don't believe the free market economy is suitable for healthcare.

I had an operation on my hand as the result of an accident on a ramp. The hospital bill for 4 hours was around $11,000. After my $500 deductable the insurance company chiped in about another $2500, because they had a negotiated rate. However, if you came in with no insurance you would have been screwed.

Joe, if you could lose your job to a rapping ho then you really need to look into continuing education.

John: Are you devoid of Native intelligence?
Are you a complete or only Semi-nole?

I think I have seen it all now. From a post that was basically saying that we do not know what it is like south of the border when it comes to someone getting hurt behind your boat because up here laws are different. Now we are getting into a heated debate about health care and an outbreak of C difficile. What's next, mud slinging about snipers, anthrax, mad cow disease.....I think you would all agree that there are forums for these types of debates, and Wakeworld is not one of them. We would also agree that wakeboarding is a great sport and why not focus on the question at hand....what do you do when a rider guts hurt behind your boat.....is the United States of America. As far as what we do up here, I will answer that for you plain and simple....we don't do anything except get the person who is hurt to a hospital if needed.

Joe, I'll stand up and admit anytime that I'm wrong. If these opinions are none of your own, then I'm sorry for directing my comments to you. However, it really sounds like you believe in Mark Steyn's writings, which I can personally assure you are misinformed.

As in any research, dogmatism and lack of skepticism is a dangerous combination. Blindly taking as truth the teachings of one person without doing further research can lead to nothing more than, as i said, ignorance. One sided viewpoints should be taken with a grain of salt.

I do not know the motivation for Mark's comments. Perhaps he has some other agenda we don't know about. What I do know is that Mark is utterly and completely wrong. Canada's life expectancy is among the highest in the world. It is interesting to note that it is actually slightly higher than the U.S rate.

Joe, let's end this political conversation right now, and get back to Tantrums and Whirlybirds and the types of topics we should be discussing on Wakeworld.

Maybe next year you can come to Canada for Wakestock and see for yourself what living conditions Canadians enjoy. I think you'll be plesantly surprised.

"Are you a complete or only Semi-nole?"
I can't parse this. So the answer must be yes.

Oh Geez, now I'm getting tag-teamed by the O'C bros.

Don't take it personally, and resort to ad-hominem attacks.

Listen carefully: a criticism of the Canadian Health-Care system is NOT an attack on Canada.
I like Canada!



Besides, with a Navy like yours you could repel any attack.




(Message edited by spoon on October 25, 2004)

this is funny <yawn>